Is America becoming Socialist ?

[JimboUK]

@Sinophile

I just love your cartoon. It realy explains all.

 

@jim_uk

You obvisiouly think socialism is against human nature?

Well, what is it then that makes us human? Our intelligence? No, we can find insects far more intelligent than humans. Is that we walk on to legs then? No, a spider uses 8, which must be far more complicated to coordinate.

What makes humans slightly different from other species of mammils, is our deep felt emotions, our feelings, our caring. Not that other animals do not care for their offspring, but when the weak can not follow up, they will be left to their destiny. That is how it is, to keep a strong group of survivers.

We were once like that, but distinguished ourselves by care for each other. Perhaps we endagered ourselves in nature by helping the weak, but the reward was a larger group of individuals. That´s why we today have a strong urge to be social, help eachother, do what ever we can to get the weak in the group to follow. That´s why a social system or "socialism is indeed adapted to human nature. As a matter of fact, it is a product of human nature.

 

Are you suggesting only socialists care? Socialism doesn't work, people are driven by material gain, take that away and people stop trying to better themselves. Why make an effort to better yourself when the state will take away what you've gained and give it someone who hasn't bothered? Why put in a hard work it takes to become a doctor when you can earn the same working in a store? Take Nationalised industry, a favourite of socialists. Why should those running these industries make any effort? If they make a profit the state takes it, if they make a loss the state covers it. The car industry in 1970s Britain was a perfect example, they built poor quality cars that cost too much and that no one wanted. They didn't care, they were still going to get paid and the state protected their jobs.

 

Socialism has failed wherever it's been tried, even China is capitalist today. We've had 13 years of it here and the country is on it's knees, capitalism isn't perfect but it's the best system we've managed to come up with so far.

[species5478]

@Aurielius

 

With equal respect, you should be aware that the foundation of your argument was built on rubble…

 

Firstly, (and I mean no disrespect to Burnagirl) there is no actual topic. Is America becoming Socialist? Is not a proper question. Because America is not an individual. The question should have been phrased; Is America becoming socialized? However, we all know what the author meant to say, so we simply accept that and move on. So, if you're going to meticulously analyze my answers with such detail, you should have scrutinized the topic heeding, or the person's point of view to whom I was actually commenting. Particularly because your argument claims my statements are false, because they don't coincide with the prose of the topic heading. By doing so, you have rendered your post invalid by default; because your rebuttal has nothing to do with the actual question being asked by Burnagirl. So before attempting to correct my vernacular, you should have said something like…

 

In regards to Burnagirl's question, I'll say that no, America is not becoming a Socialist, because it cannot become a person.

 

This is the problem when we try to scrutinize each and every word, or phrase with a surgeon's precision, point by point…without first diagnosing the cause.

 

But, if you want feedback on my response to monkybuttface, and your point by point analysis, I'd be happy to accommodate you with equal or greater attention to detail, because my points were indeed valid.

 

 

 

:whistling:

[Balagor]

I think this thread has become to far off topic.

The question was "Is America becoming Socialist?" No one seems to be able to answer that question. We now just circle around whether socialism is good or not.

Conclusion:

A majorety of the Americans say they don´t want it,

The Britains say it does not work in England,

and some say it works in Europe.

I will have a break from this topic.

[Aurielius]

Conclusion:

A majority of the Americans say they don´t want it,

The Britain's say it does not work in England,

and some say it works in Europe.

 

@Balagor

Accurate synopsis , though it does seem that the non Americans think we should adopt it because they have already drunk the cool aid and like the effects.

 

@Species

Your counter dissertation was highly entertaining, I look forward to crossing swords in the future.

[Trandoshan]

You bring up interesting points. And have an equally interesting name! monkybuttface? That's priceliess! lol I love it! Ok but seriously…

 

You say American Capitalism has worked well for hundreds of years? Perhaps. But doesn't that depend on perspective? If you're a Caucasian male, then absolutely. But females have only recently established equal rights. African Americans would frown on your statement. Because instances like Martin Luther King's assassination, just ended about thirty, or forty years ago. Before that, there was slavery. And the Native Americans went from a population of five million, to their current numbers of around five hundred thousand after their genocide at the hands of pilgrims. Not to mention, their land was taken away from them. All was done in the name of Capitalism. Even today, America still has "slaves", although not in the traditional, chain and whip sense. Mexicans pick vegetables and do farm, construction, and other forms of labor for next to nothing, because of their "illegal" status. Employees in China work suicidal hours in factories making electronic gadgets for Americans for about three hundred dollars a month. Indonesians have children in sweatshops making clothes for dollars a month. All in the name of Capitalism. So yeah, Capitalism works well when you're on the receiving end. For everybody else…not so much. So how long can we exploit others? What's also sad, is that in the enclosed video, some of our most "hip" toys, like I-Phones, are gobbled up by the masses here. But Apple isn't hiring American workers to make the gadgets. Just buy them. And we wonder why there are no jobs here.

 

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO9-hlJ5FsQ

 

Excellent. Thank you for ruining the secret of 'American' capitalism. Our forefathers sacrificed much to subjugate foreign people, that includes sacrificing our forefathers. Though, it starts a little earlier than slavery. Starts right after World War Two, when America had toppled Eruope economically due to the devastation in the European and Asian super powers. French, British, German, Italian, Russian, and Japanese industry had all fallen under due to the war. This meant that America was the sole supplier of stable product in the world. Our economy rocketed. Companies became so rich, they began to impose jurisdiction through wealth into other lands. Then came the slaves...

 

Of course, here comes the reason I quoted you

 

"So how long can we exploit others?"

 

Not long.

 

We are no longer the sole industry on the planet. Germany has recovered to the 5th position in the financial power and production scale, and China now holds our heads in a noose economically speaking. We are no longer able to pose unlimited financial jurisdiction on other countries, because they now have a means of imposing that same jurisdiction on us. We're coming to a close, perhaps not today, but in the next fifty years we may not be number one.

 

I believe Obama's presidency is a sure sign of this change. We now see our government treating other governments like *gasp* equals.

 

Of course, I'm sure that question was rhetorical anyways.... So nothing of value was gained on your end.

 

Source: Germany's Economy being 5th largest

 

CIA Fact Book... if you can trust them :)

[RedVexHK]

Something I see missed here is although not the root cause of all this mess.... but the proverbial domino that started it all falling down... something that is now part of the wall street reform bill. Speculators found a wonderful way to pad their investments by causing a market scare claiming a global epidemic within 10 years of a near complete dry up of all global oil reserves...kind of ludicrous....... but sadly believed by enough people to cause an out of control market scare the likes of which had never before been seen and skyrocketing prices. now normally this could be called a flash in the pan but investors in other markets also panicked causing them to fear uncontrolled losses and worthlessly devalued shares they tried to cash in their markers.. this put pressure on banks and financial institutions as they had to come up with money that was as stated in previous posts tied up in what amounted to imaginary investments.... ballooned housing and property values that suddenly burst hedge funds over valued with a shortfall of actual cash.... soon there was more cash being demanded by shareholders than there was actual cash to be had... and the domino fell...... the rest of the story you know... Oil futures falsely inflated by Speculators to cull a profit ...and the downfall began....They were not the cause but if not for them... the straw that broke the Camel's back... many cheats lies and collapses would not have occurred... at least not then.... tho the collapse was already on its way.. without that last straw they might have been a chance to set right the wrongs before they fell. To Socialism..... by default... if it's to work and designed by a sensible government TO WORK needs to be run responsibly and with full transparency... American Government has been known for the exact opposite Too many are such.. but America seems to pride it's self on invisible government,smoke and mirrors,sleight of hand and magical book keeping. Socialism in America demands such sweeping changes in how the nation works that it may just never be possible without a complete revolution... something that's most unlikely in any forseeable future.A Limited social net might be viable and should be implemented however as many Republicans put it Socialism is Communism,Communism is Evil..Evil Commies die!!! Oh well...... not like anyone accuses ANYONE in politics in nearly any country in the world as all that sane....some FAR from sane.....

[monkybuttface]

Allright, so capitalism is evil huh? How about the fact that at the core of EVERY system, THERE IS CAPITALISM. Socialists are essentially capitalists, the lazy people will use the government to make a profit off of the hard workers, the government will make a profit off of its citizens. Look at China, with socialism only being a sneaky communism, they are using their people to make things like i-Phones, and they are constantly expanding their influence, just like the "evil" capitalists. Also, why is it that just because some idiots way back when decided thew were gonna say someone can't do something because they have a *censored*, or their skin is the wrong color, doesn't mean capitalism didn't work well, we have rectified our mistake, we unchained them, let them do what they do. There are several succesful African American and female Americans: Oprah Winfrey, Michael Jordan, Mary Kay, Chris Gardner, etc....

 

Finally, what would happen is all the CAPITALISTIC businesses stopped having their goods made in China? As much as they stranglehold our economy, there is no chance we are going to pay that debt, no way in hell. Watch what happens when they try and drain their American gravy train, we are gonna laugh, say take a hike, and make ourselves look bad in front of the whole world, but hey, we do that anyway, so its all good. I don't care what everyone else thinks, we do what we think is best. And before you start calling me a greedy capitalist pig, know that I would gladly help anyone I can, all they have to do is ask, and if I have it I will give it. I don't condone needless slaughter, or theft, and when it comes to cultural devastation, we don't make them accept our way of life, they do it on their own.

 

Also, I am a Caucasian male, yes, but I live off of only about 120$ a week, I live in a trailer, I have a field behind my house. That 120$ is from child support, and it is for bills, food, clothes, etc. My mom has been off and on employed for years now. I still say I would rather have capitalism, because I would rather suffer than let the others suffer at my expense. I despise welfare, foodstamps, and anything else that is not directed at those who CANNOT work, not who WILL NOT work. I have until the end of this month before I get my license, and i will probably spend almost every hour i am not at school at a McDonalds, because I need the money. I would rather go work in a field somewhere but I am not Mexican, so they probably won't hire me. I know that I live better than a lot of other people in the world, at least I have a house, and my mom has recently managed to open a business (I have no idea how) and my life is picking up, because of AMERICAN CAPITALISM. I am only saying this so you don't go thinking I am some rich lawyer's kid or something, my mom makes just enough money to stay open and buy food for me.

[Maharg67]

I suggest that one has to start here by defining just what do you mean by 'socialism'. Believe it or not but there is more than one kind and the history of socialism (communism?) is one of diverging streams, of differing influences and even 'national' kinds of socialism (communism?). In other words, please stop treating socialism as if it is one big slab of sameness.

 

Britain has never been truly socialist but, like many countries, has only had a kind of democratic socialism living side by side with capitalism and always it has had to compete with, struggle with, more conservative political forces.

 

The kind of communism that grew up in Russia differed from that in China and both had as much to do with their different national influences than they did with any influence Marx had, if not more so in some ways. Communism of this kind might call itself 'socialist' but it has very little in common with the sort of socialism that emerged in party polical form in the West.

 

Is America going socialist? What does that mean? Socialised medicine? An autocratic communist state? Nationalisation of corporations? Collective farming? Perhaps the question itself also needs some more defining.

 

I don't even pretend to have the answer, especially to a question that seems to be fairly meaningless.

Edited September 4, 2010 by Maharg67

[Balagor]

I suggest that one has to start here by defining just what do you mean by 'socialism'. Believe it or not but there is more than one kind and the history of socialism (communism?) is one of diverging streams, of differing influences and even 'national' kinds of socialism (communism?). In other words, please stop treating socialism as if it is one big slab of sameness.

 

Britain has never been truly socialist but, like many countries, has only had a kind of democratic socialism living side by side with capitalism and always it has had to compete with, struggle with, more conservative political forces.

 

The kind of communism that grew up in Russia differed from that in China and both had as much to do with their different national influences than they did with any influence Marx had, if not more so in some ways. Communism of this kind might call itself 'socialist' but it has very little in common with the sort of socialism that emerged in party polical form in the West.

 

Is America going socialist? What does that mean? Socialised medicine? An autocratic communist state? Nationalisation of corporations? Collective farming? Perhaps the question itself also needs some more defining.

 

I don't even pretend to have the answer, especially to a question that seems to be fairly meaningless.

 

Thanks Mah, that was much needed :thumbsup:

[ginnyfizz]

Britain has never been truly socialist but, like many countries, has only had a kind of democratic socialism living side by side with capitalism and always it has had to compete with, struggle with, more conservative political forces.

 

Well you could have fooled me, I've only lived in the country concerned for nearly fifty years so I guess I wouldn't have noticed the raving Peoples Flag Is Deepest Red trade union mobs who were the de facto rulers of it until the advent of St Margaret Hilda.

 

Let's not split hairs about the different kinds of socialism, because in the end they all (yes, even National Socialism) boil down to the same things. They talk justice and fairness and free access to health, education and the like, but that is not how it works out in practice. You get the discouragement of and even active suppression of individualism or opposition - here in the Mother Of The Free, a socialist Government cracked down on demonstrations within sight of Parliament. You get the politicization of police forces (I have had a Met Police stormtrooper wrap his baton around my head because I was - peacefully - voicing my opposition to a Labour government.) In the name of equality and fairness what you actually get is the bringing down of everything and everyone to the lowest common denominator. Anyone who creates wealth (which means creating JOBS) is considered to be the enemy and to be taxed out of existence. And for pity's sake, don't be a bright kid from a poor to modest family, because the socialists hate selective state education with a passion, and in Britain at least chuck the brightest kids in with the "no intention of ever learning anything" yobs in what's called a comprehensive school. I was one of those bright kids and was lucky if I only got the poo kicked out of me once a day. And incidentally, the system also fails those who have real difficulties with literacy/numeracy/beavioural issues, as they all get thrown in the same pot too. And I work with the tragic results.

 

It is the kind of thing I describe above that I can see the current regime in America imposing, and which I think worries a lot of the people there.