BLOG PIECE: Modding as a hobby versus modding as a career, and the position of the Nexus

[Deleted82156User]

In response to post #23836199. #23839154, #23845829, #23853369, #23858174, #23858619, #23868714 are all replies on the same post.

People mod for their own reasons and I don't think that anyone else has a right to tell others what reasons they 'should' or 'shouldn't' mod for.

[requested]

In response to post #23836199. #23839154, #23845829, #23853369, #23858174, #23858619, #23868714, #23869794 are all replies on the same post.

We're just sharing opinions here.

[antottro]

In response to post #23809904.

No one would force you to pay for mods tho, you could just play the regular game for free like most game or like a console version

[RGMage2]

In response to post #23836199. #23839154, #23845829, #23853369, #23858174, #23858619, #23868714, #23869794, #23870749 are all replies on the same post.

Some people are of the opinion that the best job you can get is the one that pays you for doing something that you love to do. A modder hoping for financial reward for their efforts doesn’t mean they don’t love modding, or they chose a project based solely on whether they could make money from it. Love of modding, imagination and creativity, artistic expression, and being paid for what you do, none of these are mutually exclusive.

We obviously have a divide here in the community that breaks down in what appears to be an ideological and political way. On the right we have the advocates of the Free Market model, who believe that modders should have the option of letting the market decide the true value of what they have to offer. On the left we have the socialists who believe we should all be working together for the common good

Normally the socialist argument works well on me, ’cause there really are some things that can’t be done well if we don’t all work together, but I am also a strong believer in the right of the individual to pursue their own path, as long as exorcising that right doesn’t infringe on the rights of others, and that is where I see a flaw in the socialist - almost communist approach of the left.

The right-wing vision isn’t advocating that anyone be prevented from releasing free mods, they are just saying they want to exorcise basic rights over their work and let the market decide it’s value. Where as the left-wing is saying that everyone should be denied their rights and forced to conform to a communal way of thinking, and failing that, they should move on, get a job (as if we don’t already have jobs) if they want money, ’cause money has no role to play in a community, being the root of all evil as it is. To which I can’t help but say that if anything is the root of evil it would be “the lack of money”. If having money causes problems then you should be so lucky as to have those types of problems. For most people in the world money is what solves problems.

All we’ve really got going on here is speculation, no one here really knows how any of this is going to play out. But as I see it, worst case scenario is no more free mods. If that happened then I agree it would kill the community. It would effectively be No More Modding, just unofficial DLC’s, a disaster for mod makers and mod users.

Best case scenario for modders (though not for mod users) would be modders having the right to sell their mods on Bethesda officially sanctioned site, or release for free if that is their wish. I think what we would see is that only the best and most polished mods would sell, and those of us who couldn’t produce mods of such a high standard would continue to release for free. As long as future SDK's (game editors) are similar to what we have now then the nature of our mods will not change.

As for how it would change the community, I think that some people here have a utopian ideal that they apply to this community that verges on delusional. Everyone here has their own way of thinking and their own perception of what the modding community is. We don’t all move in lock-step, we are a community of individuals. One of the moderators here said it best when she said “trying to control the modding community is like trying to herd cats”. We can only be who we are. Modders who like to hoard knowledge will continue to do so, as they already do. Modders who like to teach and write tutorials will continue to do that because that is who they are. Some resource makers will demand payment, while others will release for free with the stipulation that they never be used in paid mods. Some very good modders will make money from modding, while some other very good modders will release for free because doing so fits in with their own personal ideology. As for myself, I will probably continue to obsessively work on my mods to near completion, only to abandon them because something else becomes more interesting, rarely releasing anything of value, because that is my nature… and money wont change it. :)

[JBear61]

The question of whether modders deserve payment for their work is a no-brainer... Damn right they do. Everyone who creates something desirable should be rewarded. The modding community as a whole has been uncharacteristically generous. If we sat back and thought about it, who among us would not be able to think of a time when we thought "Wow! That was excellent, I would have paid $xx for that." Or at least, "I can't believe that was free." Doom 3 had too many to mention. The Heart of the Dead for TESIV (Oblivion), Willow for FONV, and many for TESV. The ones I mentioned are not the only ones, just off the top of my head for examples.

I believe if a mod is DLC quality it should be at least a shadow of the DLC price. But then, I believe everyone who plays a game should pay for the game. There are games I have bought upon their release, and there have been times I have had to wait til the price drops, or the games were on sale, as IRL, income can fluctuate for various reasons. There is no shame in waiting for something you want. Over the past 53 years I have been reasonably wealthy, and desperately poor. I served my country in the U.S.M.C. for 6 years, and perhaps I have a morality that no longer exists. I feel that no one is "ENTITLED" to anything without cost. When you can get something free, awesome! But it is extremely unwise to have any expectations. NEVER LOOK A GIFT HORSE IN THE MOUTH and THE ONLY TIME YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO COMPLAIN IS WHEN YOU PAY. PIRACY IS NOT VICTIMLESS... YOU HAVE NO EXCUSE. If you can't afford it, wait til you can. If you want to get that "Pirate Feeling", go buy a boat and a parrot. Also a lot of pirated software contains trojan horse malware. BUY THE GAME!!!

Free modders should not have any implied warranties. To my knowledge none do. No one can legitimately say "Even if it's free, they have a responsibility to..." NO THEY DON'T! IF someone gave you a car, free, how far could you realistically expect it to go. It is a gamer's SENSE OF ENTITLEMENT to expect the mod to work perfectly on their game. Yes, I believe even a free mod should include clear installation and operation instructions. However, I believe the modder should be frustrated when people complain they have problems simply because they did not read and follow the instructions. Most modders have complete and accurate instructions for their mods, as well as any prerequisite installed content. And, not every mod is going to work with every other mod. DON'T EXPECT IT! When something doesn't work, most modders and the community itself are willing to assist if treated with respect. But, if you are to be rude, crude, and totally unacceptable in any societies we know of today, then, wow, don't be surprised or upset when any chance of help is blown away. I have seen wonderful modders abandon fantastic mods because of grief. RESPECT THE MODDER!!!

Put yourself in their place... A lot of modders start modding because they feel something is lacking in their game, or just want to shake things up. So, you're just having fun. Then you realize you're onto something. You pour as many hours as you can spare into this project. Then you think, "I bet someone else would like this too." So you double check everything and maybe have some friends and family beta test for you. You get it as perfect as you can. Then you go to the Nexus, and you see the same or similar mod on page 2 of the most recent. "Well, at least I don't have to download THAT ONE". This is what has happened to me. Now what if you don't see any like yours, and you post it, and people like it, and all is great. Then someone says it doesn't work for them. Then someone says, me too. Then they find out your mod is incompatible with another mod. One you never use. So is it then your responsibility to make your free mod compatible? If it's mod compatibility, you may ask for some sort of compatibility, but DON'T EXPECT it! What if your mod requires another mod someone doesn't want to use, should you be held responsible for that as well? What if your mod requires some folders to go in certain locations, and someone skips reading the instructions you took all that time to create, and FUBARs their game? Should you be held responsible? What if your mod is so intricate, some machines won't run it, is that then your responsibility? NO WAY!

Be real people, the truth of the matter is, MODDERS ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR CHOICES, YOU ARE! If the game developers can't guarantee the base game to run on your machine of unknown configuration, with large scale beta testing, how can you reasonably expect this from an independent modder? If a modder creates something that works only on machines of the same type as his, or only with or without certain mods, and your game or machine doesn't meet any of the criteria, then DON'T EXPECT it to work.

Now you just remove the mod and play without it. If it has scripts, get a save editor/cleaner. Or, if you feel the game is utterly destroyed, uninstall and reinstall. I have cleaned scripts numerous times. I have uninstalled/reinstalled more times than I can count. If you have any self respect at all, if you have asked for help, and nothing works, politely inform the mod author so others can make an informed choice. And, please, for your own sake, read some of the comments, and read the instructions BEFORE you install any mod.

As for me, I can now run about any mod I want. Clothing, bodies, textures, quest mods, gameplay mods, glitch and CTD free. To get to this point, I had to remove Hearthfire. I tried everything, even running the game straight vanilla, with and without UOPs, and still my game went wonky. Nothing helps. So no Hearthfire. I run Dawnguard and Dragonborn with NO problems. I bought it, but I can't get a refund, and nothing helps. So, who is responsible? Me.

Not sure how paid modding would change things. I see it as synonymous with any artistic endeavor. If you love doing something, will doing it for money not be better? Would expectations go up even higher? I would like to think there would be a place for DLC quality mods, and not just 5 minute mods. Maybe that is an idealist outlook. I would love to see some of these talented people get something for their work. It's a roller coaster ride for modders, with praise at the top, and grief at the bottom. It might be a better ride if they received payment on the ride. I have paid for DLC content for years. I would be happy to pay for a DLC (or better) quality mod. But, some people don't bother to pay for the game, why would they pay for mods?

[Thaiauxn]

The nice part about having a mod released for free is that when folks complain - which really honestly has been remarkably low - I can post this meme:

 

 

The downside to being free is the malnutrition. But, what can you do? :p

[Drednots]

Anytime I can bash Steam I will...they are crooks with s#*! customer service. They double charged my credit card for a year sub to a game, gave me a hard time trying to get a refund, when they did it went as a credit on my account (total bullshit), THEN they charged my credit card again the next day...same thing

After multiple emails telling them what's happening they gave me arrogant responses refusing to give my money back. I finally put a stop payment on my credit card and they put my account on 180 day purchases suspension. A bunch of f*#@ing assholes. Anyone else would go to jail for credit card fraud

[bootrocket]

A Modest Prediction

 

The money that a company can make from modding will be too great a temptation. Modding will DRMify almost assuredly. I can see a litany of legal ramifications to follow accordingly, from copyright infringement, sadly among modders using one platform, to pitch battles between the platform and the developer as to whom is most responsible for maintaining or upgrading the product.

 

Cooperation among mod authors, the lifeblood of creativity, will tank for reasons personal and legal as well as financial -- at least at the "professional" level. On the other hand, as long as a game's creation kit is made available to any who would, ostensibly, have a crack at designing a mod "for money" Sunday Leagues will remain as a way to trade ideas that one may implement ONE SELF rather than download.

 

For better or worse these future communities would necessarily comprise a more informed base, if not somewhat smaller. And here might be the rub. A SIGNIFICANTLY smaller base might impact the number of pricey, high performing hardware devices purchased. If one must know how to use a creation kit to mod within the extended community, the Sunday League as it were, fewer numbers of high-end machines will be needed. If fewer high-end machines are needed, high-end machine sales will tank.

 

That's the prediction: legal battles, a smaller modding community, and tanking hardware modding sales -- to begin with. The Sunday Leagues' mission would be one to place more emphasis on education, teaching others to use creation kits. They must do so or fade away entirely. And so it is, to teach or perish.

 

IMHO

 

Thank you, Dark0ne, for that thought provoking article. Well said.

Edited March 29, 2015 by bootrocket

[abestrus]

In response to post #23700109.

Thank you for bringing this up Kalell. This is what I was thinking. I have read posts here by mod authors (not all) that are feeling attacked, like users are saying their work isn't worth anything, or about how users are so demanding and feel entitled. I have seen it mentioned that they put in long hours, and resources, efforts, and in some instances money.

Normally if someone puts that much into a mod and they know they aren't getting paid for it there are only a few reasons they could possibly be doing it, recognition, fame, appreciation, personal challenge to better themselves, a fierce competitive nature, or a huge artistic spirit that wishes to give joy to others. None of these involve money.

On the other hand, I go out and work a highly stressful job for the government, 70 to 80 hours a week (time), I have to keep my vehicle and tools in top condition (resources), and I have to pay for uniforms, gas, and food (money). So yes, I put in my time, money, and resources two, to buy time to play a game, pay the mortgage, feed my kids.

One of the few stress releasers I have is playing Skyrim one or two hours a week. My father recently passed away, he was a doctor in Mexico and he immigrated to the U.S. (legally) and he quit being a doctor 15 years and took up landscaping, because he said he was tired of the stress, the money, and the demands from greedy corporate bosses. He said he missed working with farmers and on the land for the joy of getting up early, working hard, watching something grow.

This trend spells doom for beloved sites like our Nexus. The best ways for these big corporations to make money from modding is to stop free competitors with cease and desist letters. User rights under EULA aren't taken away....yet, but how many of you have money to take on the team of lawyers that Bethesda has for the next 5 years in court if they decide to tell you to stop?

Modding was a small niche, underground group years ago. Bethesda and other big gaming companies started as small niche groups. They decided to ignore the modding community because they assumed it was a small group and they couldn't see any way of generating money from it.

Modding has extended the shelf life of Bethesda games way past any time that the game would have had without mods (Morrowind anyone?) Thanks to creative people like Arthmoor, Elianora, Colourwheel, ArrowInKnee, and others, modding has attracted a huge fan base.

So maybe an equal compromise between both sides. One that shows the value and appreciation toward modders, and the other toward the hard work users have to put in to earn that money they are paying you.

A subscription model that allows downloading all mods for a set monthly price. With the caveat that those that choose not to do it for money but rather love of modding, can be allowed to keep posting on sites like Nexus. It would be interesting to see which site would have more followers at the end of the year.

But why would Valve and Bethesda allow for free websites when they offer paid ones? Simple...so that they can keep selling their old Game of the Year games on Steam even 10 years after their release, still make some money off of modding, and not choke the artistic spirit of modders out of the world.

[Arthmoor]

In response to post #23836199. #23839154, #23845829, #23853369, #23858174, #23858619, #23868714, #23869794, #23870749, #23874494 are all replies on the same post.

However, that reward should not be to satisfy monetary greed.

And yet nobody has been able to articulate how getting paid to mod somehow means satisfying monetary greed.

I could say the same about all these guys who post Youtube stuff and monetize the videos. Especially since they are arguably making money off of things OTHER people made. Yet nobody seems to be directing their righteous anger at them for it either.

It doesn't make much sense to me, in the same way people who call Origin and uPlay evil but embrace Steam when all 3 do all of the same things to their customers.