Armour; Fantasy vs Reality

[Boombro]

Yes that a woman, the chest space is very wide and has room for breasts. And I'm no expert, but the arms seems a but thin. If I can take look of the waist.

 

Lachdonin, you have know history well. Do you recall a real looking female armor or hunting outfits?

[kniggit92]

Not entirely sure what you hope to achieve here Lachdonin. There will never be a *do we want* because there is no *we*. There's all kinds of audiences for elder scrolls and it's mods.

 

The only nonsensical armors I can think of are variations of hide armor (studded, scaled etc)

These armors are worn by bandits and brigands, it's supposed to reflect what a bandits armor would look like, a heap of scrap held together with leather straps, belts and pieces of scavenged metal is all a common bandit would be able to manage. The real armor would be hogged by their leaders (like in Skyrim)

They aren't very practical or any good because they aren't supposed to be. Nord bandits are generally ice brains without proper training and knowledge of armoring, which reflects in how easy they are to kill when compared to their leaders.

 

I'm guessing the discussion is about vanilla armors, since you can just choose to not install modded armors.

 

Dwarven armor is rare and heavy and thus not really seen ever, but I can't see it as useful outside of tournaments, which is fine I guess.

Glass and elven armor looks perfectly functional.

Ebony armor looks functional albeit a bit ornamental. Same with daedric and dragon.

Steel armor looks fine.

Iron armor looks fine although the bare arms are a bit illogical, but chest plates were a common armor.

Imperial/storm cloak armor look perfectly functional to me, although imperial armor looks more suited for a warmer region.

Edited April 2, 2015 by kniggit92

[Lachdonin]

Lachdonin, you have know history well. Do you recall a real looking female armor or hunting outfits?

In Skyrim or in reality? If Skyrim, most of the vanilla sets aren't particularly bad, though they do suffer from the normal 'boob plate' issue... If reality... Well, basically any breastplate will do. They would typically have a slightly more tapered waist, such as the armour Joan of Arc would have worn, but unless your sporting a DDD cup size, the compression of a standard gambesson and breastplate isn't going to he overly uncomfortable...

 

As for what I had hoped to achieve.... This had nothing to do with mods. I accept that people are going to mod in whatever tickles their fancy, regardless of whether it is A: functional B: fits the setting, or C: isn't entirely sexist and degrading.

 

What I had hoped was for a discussion about whether or not a world which adheres to similar functioning principles of armouring and weaponry is better served abandoning fantasy tropes which make no sense within its own rules. We had been having the discussion over on the Bethesda Forums, and I decided to go outside the rather like minded community there and get input from a radically different group.

 

And yes, I recognise that the banditry and riff raff of Skyrim is supposed to look hodge podge and disfunctional, but there remains no justification for the use of Fur (which would frankly be easy to turn into proper leather) and Studded Leather. Even bandits have the goal of staying alive, and they're not going to wear absolutely useless 'armour'.

[Boombro]

I meant in real life, I don't mind boob plate because it not wildly known. And I really don't mind armor that have some sexual hint in them as long as it fits like vampire armor and the dark seducer. It just odd if armor like steel plate had a boob window. And I was thinking if there was real life one, you know, one in box of glass? Or art from way back.

 

I guess for female armors in games, you mean like this? http://ayesdyef.com/mhcgartworks2/mhcgartworks2_armor_Page_02.jpg expect the the bulky white and blue one.

[kniggit92]

Fur armor is more like leather armor with fur decorations or clothing in Skyrim. The bandits that wear it are the novice level ones, bandits even a starting adventurer can beat. What you have to realise is that armor is very expensive in Skyrim, even a simple iron armor costs several hundreds of septims at a merchant or blacksmith. The bandits that don't have actual armor are the low rank ones, the bandits just starting out. There's no way that type of bandits has had enough time to gather the coin for an armor or have enough esteem to get the valuable armor from the groups spoils. Which brings me to another thing, bandits try to look menacing, they take wild hairstyles, use body paint and menacing looking garment to impress their fellow bandits and scare their victims.

A simple shirt and pants is nowhere near as menacing as a leather tunic with a bear head and saber cat fur, but these are the more affordable ones.

 

Hunters wouldn't use armor at all, they wear the animal furs as a testimony to Kyne and simply because it looks sort of fashionable.

 

Did you know a lot of the vanilla npc's have lines that comment on the type of armor your wearing? If you wear a bandit armor like studded or hide armor they will make comments like "that's a brigands armor you're wearing, you better not be here to start trouble" etc. It's not just the guards either there's a lot of variations.

I really think bethesda thought the armors and their placement in the world through quite well and I can't think of any armor that is absolutely unjustifiable.

 

Remember, humans aren't always logical, in any age in history there were people making illogical decisions, including armor wise. Shitty armor is a key component of RPGs, if there was no shitty armor npcs would have to wear no armor or take unrealistic high damage from a novice adventurer.

Edited April 2, 2015 by kniggit92

[Lachdonin]

There's no way that type of bandits has had enough time to gather the coin for an armor or have enough esteem to get the valuable armor from the groups spoils.

 

Literally all they would need to do is put the tanned leather in boiling water. Soft leather offers virtually no protection (technically, canvass holds up to cuts better) and hardening it is exceedingly simple. There's no reason for Bandits to be wearing anything other than leather since it's so easy to produce, Covering armour with furs to make someone more intimidating, that's acceptable (less so in our world, but we don't have furry hulking trolls wandering around...) but the Hide armours in Skyrim aren't functional. A petty thug in an alley may wear one, but not a bandit, unless they're a really bad one...

 

Similarly, regardless of what the Guard's say, the studded leather has no function. And that's really the issue at hand.

 

Armouring follows the same principles in Tamriel as it does in our world. They even indicate that heavy armour (Dwemer Plate, specifically) isn't particularly encumbering (at least not in the way it is for the sake of gameplay) which is appropriate for real armours. The stylistic motifs are also not particualrly outlandish, when one considers the armours of the Maximilian and Greenwich eras (such as the armour presented to Henry VIII by Emperor Maximilian of the Holy Roman Empire, the only surviving piece of which is http://i.imgur.com/fH2OlU6.jpg ).

 

Whether mentioned or associated with particular groups, things like Hide armour and Studded Leather have no functional purpose. Leather, Scale, Mail, Banded (Lamellars), Splint (Brigandines) and Plate... Those actually WORK. Hide and Studded Leather do not, so their continued use, in TES and any other setting (provided it adheres to the same functional rules of force, deflection and geometry...) is either caused by the inhabitants of Tamriel being idiots, or simple adherence to nonsensical fantasy tropes.

 

 

I guess for female armors in games, you mean like this? http://ayesdyef.com/mhcgartworks2/mhcgartworks2_armor_Page_02.jpg expect the the bulky white and blue one.

Those actually aren't bad. Really, the only difference between female armour and male should be the hips, which its self will tend to vary. I've seen reinactors and HEMA fighters who i legitimately didn't know were women until they either spoke or took their helmets off...

But again, we're mostly talking about armouring techniques, not the Male-Female divide. Iron, Steel, Dwemer, Orcish, Elven, Glass, Ebony and Daedric are all variations of Plate, differing in material and motif, yes, but still basically the same type of armour. Which highlights the point... If you can vary armours based on materials (something that couldn't really be done in the real world, at least not to the same extent) where is the need for fictional types of armour that wouldn't actually work within the logic of the setting?

Edited April 2, 2015 by Lachdonin

[kniggit92]

Most hide armors and especially fur armor offers next to no protection, which is realistic I suppose. Not wearing a full set of armor is also punished by perks, which makes foes without a helmet especially vulnerable.

But on the point of functionality: I believe I already covered why bandits don't have functional armors, they are usually uneducated nords and simply don't know any better. Like I said there have been numerous next to useless military outfits throughout history, with open torsos, unprotected arms/legs etc. or even no protection at all. Why? many reasons: Culture, lack of knowledge or funds etc.

Like I said the nordic bandits in Skyrim are generally ice brains who wear studded armors with weird symbols and plates of metal that seem scavenged together. I honestly wouldn't have the skill to even produce a fur armor let alone skin an animal if I tried. I don't see why bandits, who are often runaway criminals, farmers and beggars seeking fortune with no knowledge of tanning, armoring or even hunting, would do a better job than me. It is quite feasible that these people would wear fur *armor* or any sort of protection they can scrap together like nailing pieces of metal to belts and strapping it to their torso etc.

 

You need to step away from the idea that man will always make logic decisions, realism doesn't go hand in with functionality, at all. Neither does reason.

 

Everything has a reason/cause and/or a motivation, these reasons and motivations do not have to be reasonable, logic or correct.

Edited April 2, 2015 by kniggit92

[Lachdonin]

I suppose i can accept that justification, even if i do feel it's a stretch (knowing how to tan and treat leather may be a rather rare skill today, but a thousand years ago everyone from peasant farmers to relatively wealthy landowners knew how to do it) but the cardinal question remains.

 

Is it worth keeping the trope going, when the only in-universe justification is that the wearers of these styles of armour are borderline mentally handicapped? Particularly in light of the fact that it's not needed for the sake of variety?

Edited April 2, 2015 by Lachdonin

[BigBizkit]

but a thousand years ago everyone from peasant farmers to relatively wealthy landowners knew how to do it) but the cardinal question remains.

 

everyone knew how to do it in our world.

[Bloodinfested]

Have to also consider the variety of armor back in the day wasn’t for the sake of style it was a matter of affording such armors most ppl couldn’t afford heavy armor such as plate mail so they resorted to chain mail or leather. Much like weaponry in that time the Vikings primary used axes because swords were an luxury specially the Ulfberht. If your a farmer getting raided at that point anything is better then nothing.

I wouldn’t mind them getting rid of glass for the sake of it being more realistic replaced by Adamantium and Mithril in the older games. I realize some ppl like glass armor it is fantasy but so is Adamantium an metal substance is more suitable for armor then volcanic glass. If some guy hit ya with a iron mace your wearing glass armor it probably do far more damage to you wearing the armor all the razor glass fragments shattering and going into your skin.

Light medium and heavy armor more less defines the weight of the armor the way the perk tree is set up it only adds to more customization of your character.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Bloodinfested