Valve/Bethesda announce paid modding for Skyrim, more games to follow

[mizzix20]

To be honest I am split about this idea and I think that Valve may want to reconsider it.

 

While certian modders put a lot of effort into their mods and spend hours on it, some don't and their work is shoddy, full of bugs, or stolen from other users. Before allowing a person to put up a mod that is behind a pay wall that mod should be checked and reviewed for other peoples work. If a mod request includes part or is based on or requires another mod to run, that that person should be required to split profits with that mod author. For example, If I had a mod that required Frostfall and SKYUI to run and I wanted to put it behind a pay wall I should be required to share profits with the authors or obtain a statement from that author that indicates that they do not want any of the profits. If the can't obtain that then they can't monetize it and should go and develope their own frostfall like mod. In other words one mod author should not benefit from the work that another did.

 

With that said there are plently of mods that i would be willing to pay for as they enhance the gameplay. SKYUI, Frostfall and Falksaar are some examples where you cna tell the authors dedicated their time to improve Skyrim. i would be happy to support modders such as these as they are all well done.

 

 

[hyronamus]

i know im spitting into a pond here but for what its worth:

 

i feel like mod authors charging for their work isnt as bad as it sounds. i've only ever made one or 2 mods for myself so i cant even imagine the sheer amount of work some of the mods on this site wold require. asking for a couple of dollers here and there for a massive improvement for a game is something i have no qualms with, thats just like getting DLC, and we all get DLC for stuff sometimes. i can also understand why people are upset because mods have traditionally always been a free service.

 

what i am NOT happy with is that its steam workshop exclusive. like many of you i find the workshops mod managing system completely unusable as it tries to fiddle with everything. but since its a valve/bethesda effort the workshop is the only place that they can monetize it and both companys can monitor the sales/distribution of wealth. therefor you cant even pay for a mod then download it elsewhere.

 

a solution i would be happy with? well so far im ok with cheskos choice to basicly pre-release on the workshop then after 90 days release on nexus for free, its a fair call to try offer both services but here i dont even really have the option to buy it because of the stupid workshop manager. what would be nicer is the opportunity for mod authors to host their files elsewhere and still be able to ask for something back for the work they put in through the store.

[Lillysdad2009]

In response to post #24578554. #24578854, #24579349, #24579589, #24579674, #24579854, #24579929, #24580014 are all replies on the same post.

Lillysdad2009 wrote:

WightMage wrote: Here here!

Lillysdad2009 wrote: I know if I had the money to donate I absolutely would. But for me personally at this point. Gaming isn't my first priority, I have a family to think of as many of the mod authors do. This is not exactly a hobby ya know this stuff takes real time. In today's world time is money, bruthas (and SISTAS) gotta eat. People keep mentioning Skywind and Beyond Skyrim I would honestly be disapointed if they finish...... Which I am starting to have my doubts about btw, but that's another forum all together. I would be extremely disappointed if they didn't get the monetary funds to compensate them for all the work that that is going to take to finish. Donations are just not a sure thing.

Nichoice wrote: => https://steamcommunity.com/app/72850/discussions/0/611704730313333429/

When I posted this 6 mins ago OP wasn't banned, and now he is.

I have no problem with modders getting paid for their work, because they should be! But being paid comes with responsibilities which no body seems to want to uphold.

AineoftheSidhe wrote: Mods should be donationware. Corporations can't send DMCA's and/or Cease and Desist letters to someone who happens to make mods and who also happens to accept charity from "benevolent onlookers." (:D)

I don't have much money. And I feel that having mods behind a paywall will encourage piracy. Which is ironic because:

"We think there is a fundamental misconception about piracy. Piracy is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem," - Gabe Newell 2011

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/114391-Valves-Gabe-Newell-Says-Piracy-Is-a-Service-Problem

And this is just the start of the problem.

Did Valve/Bethesda even think about the implications or issues? If they have then I don't know what to think about them anymore?

But I think they didn't.

WightMage wrote: Maybe they just dun goofed?

Or maybe they just rushed this out the door without proper preparation. Maybe we'll find out in the coming days.

zanity wrote: The user input that helped him add features or find bugs is also INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. He has NOT paid for these services, even though the Law requires that he does so, or informs people BEFORE they offer their input that he may exploit it for commercial gain without offering payment.

Here's how it works in the grown-up world of legally correct software houses. The people who find bugs are PAID employees. The people who make design effecting suggestions are PAIN employees. If the software house runs a forum where user input may be used to improve the product, the software house if legally obliged to state this in the terms and conditions of the forum.

Almost every significant mod on Nexus that has had more than one version has benefited from the unpaid input of those who used it and commented- and this was NOT a legal problem when future versions of the mod were to be offered for free.

I am NOT stating an opinion- I am stating a fact of LAW.

If Chesko wanted to make money from his modding, he should have created brand-new, clean-room mods that were 100% of his invention, or ownership if he started paying others for their assistance.

Too many here think that modders are somehow beyond the law, or operate in a universe where the law doesn't apply to them, simply because of the tradition of modding. Well guess what, people- when you chose to go 'commercial' , the rules change whether you like that or not.

And as with most things in life- the more complex and 'interesting' the mod, the more difficult the legal problems become.

Lillysdad2009 wrote: What really bothers me the most is that I feel like Steam and also Bethesda are doing this under the false pretense that they are helping the modding community. But what they are really doing is being greedy bastards. I mean that's the only thing I can think to say about it. I mean look at the people that are hating on Chesko right now. When all he is doing is taking advantage of an opportunity that he was offered. He didn't come up with the idea. I don't see this doing any thing for the modding community or Bethesda in the long run. It is really just tearing apart both parties. When all you can see are dollar signs as a corporation, you might as well close up shop. I guess it depends on what one considers "Success"

I won't lie and pretend like I understood all of that. But I do agree that is another really strong point. When they go and offer their downloads on steam they work for them, there will be contracts even if only electronically there will be agreements that are going to have to be made. Therefore a lot of the "Freedom" that an uploader has here. That won't carry over to this new arrangement being offered by the workshop.

[omgitskarla]

In response to post #24580064.

Scyantific wrote:

Just read this on Skyrimmods subreddit: "I just want to emphasize the SKSE point: The SKSE creators do not care. They do not think this is a disgusting move. They do not have problems with people requiring SKSE in their paid mods. They will be making a workshop version of SKSE."

very disappointing

[ValtielCurse]

In response to post #24578069. #24578114, #24578164, #24578219, #24578734, #24578914, #24579054, #24579509, #24579899, #24579914 are all replies on the same post.

WightMage wrote:

Salzber wrote: Doesn't change him agreeing and joining to begin with.

Arendella wrote: He may of had a choice and his own choice to put his mod there and such, but there is no excuse for what he did. I'm sorry but I won't use his mods anymore and I will tell others to not support it as well. In terms of business, all it takes is bad reputation to outweigh the good ones.

WightMage wrote: I'm not saying that I support his decision, just been spending the past hour getting scoops and posting them here for others to read.

In other news, there's a rumor that some of the mod authors have taken to changing their Steam handles due to the sheer amount of hate they're getting.

Impulseman45 wrote: NDA my ass. There was a very simple answer to Valve and Bethesda on this and that was "NO". Absolutely not. But they chose to drink the cool aid as I like to say. They got suckered in. What did Valve do and or say to them about the other modding avenues and do they know something that they still can tell us. Like a possible total lock out of all non sanctioned Workshop mods is coming and this was the time to jump on or get out of the way. Something more is going here and these guys are not telling the whole truth about it. They know more and they cant say anything for fear of what? Getting locked out of the modding scene completely? Makes you wonder what the heck is really going on here.

Hoamaii wrote: Like I said 100 posts away, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the "agreement" offered to modders to monetize their work would be to make it a "Workshop exclusive".

Brasscatcher wrote: You've got the right of it, Hoamaii. (I owe you some screenshots, btw. CLEARSKY FRICKEN ROCKS. I wouldn't have been so stoked about trying my own hand at modding skyrim if it wasn't for sexy player homes like yours.)

I'm troubled by the POTENTIAL consequences, fiscal, legal, and political this could have on the ecosystem of modding.

Hoamaii wrote: My main concern is this thing is a lure for modders. There's no way ANY industry in the world would ever ever offer anything out of pure generosity.

I should know: I'm a writer, a screenwriter and I even worked in the music industry at some point. Unless they're stars, authors never get anything but crumbs - 10% on the paper, sure, but has any author been shown the real sales figures?.. If I really wanna make a living, I do advertising, all the rest is just a wreckless adventure for fun.

So the real question is what is this lure hiding that we fail to see?

marthgun wrote: the lure?

Worst case scenario they want to shut down the nexus and sites like it through dmca or equivelant.

think about it, if a modder signs a contract giving beth and valve copywrite control over their mods for money, then what is stopping them from coming to the nexus to claim similar mods break those copywrite protections? And steam is allowing ANY mod to be sold. So what about tweaks or enb presets? This could be a nightmare

WightMage wrote: ...sounds like a good plot to a future motion picture.

Nice, experiment with the modding community. And get paid in the meantime. Win win.

[ShadowDragyn]

Oh awesome, comment editing is broken. Well whatever it would've just been washed out in the flood of messages anyway. Edited April 24, 2015 by Shadow_Dragyn

[Brasscatcher]

In response to post #24580029.

WightMage wrote:

Ahhh, but that's the crux, innit? Are their motivations selfless? I for one think selflessness to be an illusion; there is always something in it for the actor, even if it's not money. I do good deeds, trivial small favors to feel good, I perform to feed my ego. My sense of humor makes me the center of attention, it wins me adulation.

Cold hard cash is the most direct form of return on investment, if not the most poetic. :D

[Jsmorris14]

In response to post #24579774. #24580049 is also a reply to the same post.

WightMage wrote:

marthgun wrote: its legit, i took my own personal screencaps of that. both of fore's reply saying he didn't authorize it and Chesko saying steam told him it was "fair game"

broke my heart. I hate to s#*! all over Chesko, maybe he has another side to this story, but that did not look good. It's not just Fore either, there are tons of people that worked on what i would call 'essential' utilities. without which modding your game or creating mods would be very difficult.

Its real. I was following it when he posted it.

[zanity]

In response to post #24578069. #24578114, #24578164, #24578219, #24578734, #24578914, #24579054, #24579509, #24579899, #24579914, #24580104 are all replies on the same post.

WightMage wrote:

Salzber wrote: Doesn't change him agreeing and joining to begin with.

Arendella wrote: He may of had a choice and his own choice to put his mod there and such, but there is no excuse for what he did. I'm sorry but I won't use his mods anymore and I will tell others to not support it as well. In terms of business, all it takes is bad reputation to outweigh the good ones.

WightMage wrote: I'm not saying that I support his decision, just been spending the past hour getting scoops and posting them here for others to read.

In other news, there's a rumor that some of the mod authors have taken to changing their Steam handles due to the sheer amount of hate they're getting.

Impulseman45 wrote: NDA my ass. There was a very simple answer to Valve and Bethesda on this and that was "NO". Absolutely not. But they chose to drink the cool aid as I like to say. They got suckered in. What did Valve do and or say to them about the other modding avenues and do they know something that they still can tell us. Like a possible total lock out of all non sanctioned Workshop mods is coming and this was the time to jump on or get out of the way. Something more is going here and these guys are not telling the whole truth about it. They know more and they cant say anything for fear of what? Getting locked out of the modding scene completely? Makes you wonder what the heck is really going on here.

Hoamaii wrote: Like I said 100 posts away, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the "agreement" offered to modders to monetize their work would be to make it a "Workshop exclusive".

Brasscatcher wrote: You've got the right of it, Hoamaii. (I owe you some screenshots, btw. CLEARSKY FRICKEN ROCKS. I wouldn't have been so stoked about trying my own hand at modding skyrim if it wasn't for sexy player homes like yours.)

I'm troubled by the POTENTIAL consequences, fiscal, legal, and political this could have on the ecosystem of modding.

Hoamaii wrote: My main concern is this thing is a lure for modders. There's no way ANY industry in the world would ever ever offer anything out of pure generosity.

I should know: I'm a writer, a screenwriter and I even worked in the music industry at some point. Unless they're stars, authors never get anything but crumbs - 10% on the paper, sure, but has any author been shown the real sales figures?.. If I really wanna make a living, I do advertising, all the rest is just a wreckless adventure for fun.

So the real question is what is this lure hiding that we fail to see?

marthgun wrote: the lure?

Worst case scenario they want to shut down the nexus and sites like it through dmca or equivelant.

think about it, if a modder signs a contract giving beth and valve copywrite control over their mods for money, then what is stopping them from coming to the nexus to claim similar mods break those copywrite protections? And steam is allowing ANY mod to be sold. So what about tweaks or enb presets? This could be a nightmare

WightMage wrote: ...sounds like a good plot to a future motion picture.

ValtielCurse wrote: Nice, experiment with the modding community. And get paid in the meantime. Win win.

When is he going to pay all the people who made suggestions and helped track down bugs on the understanding that future versions of the mod would be free?

Writing code is usually a paid occupation, BUT so is product testing in order to discover bugs and product feature design. Chesko's previously Nexus-published mods are LEGALLY a collaborative effort, whether Chesko likes this fact or not.

Chesko is, of course, free to create NEW mods (and not simply versions of existing ones) in which he is the sole owner of the IP- but that is most certainly NOT the case with the existing ones.

To make it clearer- Hollywood studios are forever being SUCCESSFULLY sued when they make films that were originally the idea of someone the studio never bothered to pay. You do NOT get to use the input of others commercially, unless you pay them for the input. It is widely established that Chesko used the freely provided input from Nexus forums to 'improve' his mods.

It is disgusting that Valve and Bethesda have NOT clarified the law to those mod authors that Valve and Bethesda seek to make money from. Legal mods can most certainly be created from now on for commercial exploitation- but the rules for such mods will be vastly different from the "anything goes" attitude of Nexus.

[Lillysdad2009]

In response to post #24578554. #24578854, #24579349, #24579589, #24579674, #24579854, #24579929, #24580014, #24580089 are all replies on the same post.

Lillysdad2009 wrote:

WightMage wrote: Here here!

Lillysdad2009 wrote: I know if I had the money to donate I absolutely would. But for me personally at this point. Gaming isn't my first priority, I have a family to think of as many of the mod authors do. This is not exactly a hobby ya know this stuff takes real time. In today's world time is money, bruthas (and SISTAS) gotta eat. People keep mentioning Skywind and Beyond Skyrim I would honestly be disapointed if they finish...... Which I am starting to have my doubts about btw, but that's another forum all together. I would be extremely disappointed if they didn't get the monetary funds to compensate them for all the work that that is going to take to finish. Donations are just not a sure thing.

Nichoice wrote: => https://steamcommunity.com/app/72850/discussions/0/611704730313333429/

When I posted this 6 mins ago OP wasn't banned, and now he is.

I have no problem with modders getting paid for their work, because they should be! But being paid comes with responsibilities which no body seems to want to uphold.

AineoftheSidhe wrote: Mods should be donationware. Corporations can't send DMCA's and/or Cease and Desist letters to someone who happens to make mods and who also happens to accept charity from "benevolent onlookers." (:D)

I don't have much money. And I feel that having mods behind a paywall will encourage piracy. Which is ironic because:

"We think there is a fundamental misconception about piracy. Piracy is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem," - Gabe Newell 2011

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/114391-Valves-Gabe-Newell-Says-Piracy-Is-a-Service-Problem

And this is just the start of the problem.

Did Valve/Bethesda even think about the implications or issues? If they have then I don't know what to think about them anymore?

But I think they didn't.

WightMage wrote: Maybe they just dun goofed?

Or maybe they just rushed this out the door without proper preparation. Maybe we'll find out in the coming days.

zanity wrote: The user input that helped him add features or find bugs is also INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. He has NOT paid for these services, even though the Law requires that he does so, or informs people BEFORE they offer their input that he may exploit it for commercial gain without offering payment.

Here's how it works in the grown-up world of legally correct software houses. The people who find bugs are PAID employees. The people who make design effecting suggestions are PAIN employees. If the software house runs a forum where user input may be used to improve the product, the software house if legally obliged to state this in the terms and conditions of the forum.

Almost every significant mod on Nexus that has had more than one version has benefited from the unpaid input of those who used it and commented- and this was NOT a legal problem when future versions of the mod were to be offered for free.

I am NOT stating an opinion- I am stating a fact of LAW.

If Chesko wanted to make money from his modding, he should have created brand-new, clean-room mods that were 100% of his invention, or ownership if he started paying others for their assistance.

Too many here think that modders are somehow beyond the law, or operate in a universe where the law doesn't apply to them, simply because of the tradition of modding. Well guess what, people- when you chose to go 'commercial' , the rules change whether you like that or not.

And as with most things in life- the more complex and 'interesting' the mod, the more difficult the legal problems become.

Lillysdad2009 wrote: What really bothers me the most is that I feel like Steam and also Bethesda are doing this under the false pretense that they are helping the modding community. But what they are really doing is being greedy bastards. I mean that's the only thing I can think to say about it. I mean look at the people that are hating on Chesko right now. When all he is doing is taking advantage of an opportunity that he was offered. He didn't come up with the idea. I don't see this doing any thing for the modding community or Bethesda in the long run. It is really just tearing apart both parties. When all you can see are dollar signs as a corporation, you might as well close up shop. I guess it depends on what one considers "Success"

Lillysdad2009 wrote: I won't lie and pretend like I understood all of that. But I do agree that is another really strong point. When they go and offer their downloads on steam they work for them, there will be contracts even if only electronically there will be agreements that are going to have to be made. Therefore a lot of the "Freedom" that an uploader has here. That won't carry over to this new arrangement being offered by the workshop.

It likely was a mistake, I have seen a few people mention that they are probably just testing the waters on a game that isn't "New" but is also still relevant to see what parts of it they could implement in the future with other releases. I really think that sounds spot on.