sir stanley Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 I'm really torn about this. Another danger is that due to Steam's limitations really big mods like Falskaar or SMIM would have to be significantly watered down to be uploaded on the Workshop... So we will end up paying for a worse product! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boulegue Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 In response to post #24567554. #24567709, #24567759, #24567899, #24567969, #24568219, #24568329 are all replies on the same post. Reveal hidden contents Quote bioshards wrote: Quote AmeerMahmood wrote: Keep in mind, dude, the mod authors only get 25% of the cost of the mod through the workshop.So if, for instance, a mod costs $5 (cough wet and cold), the author will only be getting $1.25. But, thinking that, this could also be an incentive to charge large amounts of money for mods, just so authors can get a decent "cut".IMO though, this whole thing is ridiculous, £2 for a mod? Most of my damn PC games cost me £3.50. Quote Jakal256 wrote: To add to that there's 2 creators to wet and cold so they split it 50 50 so 50% of 25%. What a meager payout for all the hate they're getting right now... Quote boulegue wrote: pretty sure they got a "little" extra from valve Quote bioshards wrote: so now I have to spend 20 dollars on the game, 5 dollars on project nevada, 6 dollars on weapon retexture project, 10 dollars on.... you get the picture. Quote mkess wrote: If they accept only 25% of the income, they deserve all they got now, alone for their weak math skills and the missing common sense.I as modder from "X2-the threat" would laugh steam in their face, for the idea to make 75% with MY hard work. And the MK3 trader scripts were hard work, believe me. No, sir. I get 90% and you 10%, would be my answer. You have done exact NOTHING, to earn these money! Otherwise I will give it the players for free. ... And, please, make the payment optional! This is a sick joke, right? Only 25%? Quote icecreamassassin wrote: this whole "$2 for a mod when I can pay $3 for a whole game?" argument doesn't really hold water. Look at the "play for free, pay to succeed" model of MMO's? WoW has the subscription model locked up tight despite the fact it's run its course in my mind, while everyone else does the whole premium currency thing. Apps do it all the time: pay $5 for 200 game gold, and people do it. You aren't actually paying for intangible software, you are actually paying for completely imaginary stuff, which is even worse. That's essentially what they are banking on with this new mod fee model. modders for TF2&Dota2 get 25% aswell and they can make a lot of money.... i dont skyrim mods will reach those numbers but valve is doing fairly well with this system(by the way thank you mkess for your work on the X games! 3000hours and counting on x-3) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogzilla98 Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 "modding is a skill, a talent-" I'm a talentless scrub piece of s#*!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boulegue Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 In response to post #24568419. Reveal hidden contents Quote sir stanley wrote: the 100mb limitation is gone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxR Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Well, there is a big probability that this is the begging of an end. Look at CS GO. There are not free mods too. Consiquences are that workshop is a big trash can. Cause every single greedy scrub want money but dont want to do anything to get it so there are tons of cheap skins, not even different models. Just red/white/yellow ak. Its impossible to find any worthy content in this pile of crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icecreamassassin Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Sad thing is that many modders are very tempted by this because people DO and WILL pay for this, I mean common, it's steam, I don't hold those users to as high of a standard of intelligence at large as I do most of the people here, they will pay it. Modders will be tempted by that because donations here are really very VERY small, infrequent and nearly invisible to a lot of users. I can't blame modders for wanting to help make ends meet with their efforts, I mean hell; make money doing something you love on your own terms? yeah sounds great. The downfall will be horrendous though in the quality being outputted, the inconsistency of pricing and content, the permissions, legal aspects and shared interest in content from multiple contributors... it's a giant mess they didn't even take into account it seems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aahzmandias Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 (edited) In response to post #24568089. #24568194, #24568259, #24568389, #24568534, #24568589, #24568629, #24568659 are all replies on the same post. Reveal hidden contents Quote lilquickguy wrote: Quote Reaper0021 wrote: You're not seeing the broader picture. Until you do....no sense in explaining it as I can't type that well or fast. Research what this CAN lead too. Logic and Intelligence walk hand in hand and are close bed fellows. Quote boulegue wrote: sadly real developer jobs are rare especially those most modders want to do.... not agreeing with reaper since i think he is massively exaggerating but just getting a real developer job is not that easy... and theres a huge difference between working as a modder for yourself having free creativity and working for the "big evil" developers Quote Reaper0021 wrote: Not agreeing with boulegue as I think he is underestimating the true ramifications of what can happen here, but this can lead to all sorts of OTHER paywall issues here. THOSE are the problems. Quote boulegue wrote: please share your research with us Quote Reaper0021 wrote: THAT "boulegue" is the issues in small form what I'm referring to thank you mkess. He listed only some of the problems that can arise from this. Modding is a very small part of where this sort of thing can lead.No research needed go look at "Early Access" games or "Pay to Win" or the DLC issues with games being cut apart and levels being held back until you pay $7.99 for them, etc. STEAM is full of "Research". Quote boulegue wrote: the DMCA claim through steam only goes for the mods posted for charge on the steam workshop, the DMCA claim option exists since the DMCA not just since today.... Quote calfurius wrote: @mkess well with that logic everything should be free. Just because greed has caused some problems, doesn't mean charging money for something will always be a bad idea.Paying for mods will have a learning period, and it will be bumpy. But I honestly think that this could be a good idea if it's done correctly.Yes, otherwise we would not have:- micro-DLC frauds.- Payed beta called "early access"- Preorder, leading to bughells.- Casual games, for the braindead masses.- Unplayable Vanilla games like Gothic 3- Bad and cheap console ports. Like Skyrim .... Remember the vanilla menu!In all these cases, there is ONE and ONLY ONE reason:GREED!And so, the mods will be another point on that list:- Paid mods. With DMCA takedown notice danger for ALL other modders and the community. They even mention it in their description!WELL DONE, STEAM!I am so angry. Edited April 23, 2015 by mkess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumbek Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 In response to post #24565684. #24565749, #24565819, #24565874, #24565944, #24566139, #24566154, #24566189, #24566214, #24566264, #24566339, #24566349, #24566439, #24566459, #24566504, #24566524, #24566569, #24566579, #24566644, #24566769, #24566779, #24566819, #24566909, #24566934, #24567024, #24567079, #24567154, #24567239, #24567264, #24567269, #24567344, #24567354, #24567469, #24567539, #24567564, #24567664, #24568174 are all replies on the same post. Reveal hidden contents Quote Brumbek wrote: Quote Zaldiir wrote: Wait a little bit. See if the updated donation system here on NexusMods will make more people donate. :thumbsup:If it doesn't increase the amount of donations, then I don't blame you for wanting just a little bit of compensation for your hours of work. $1 or $2 is definitely not greedy - just a shock for a lot of people. Quote athiust wrote: Your awesome you have caused alot of joy in alot of people and have created satisfaction and an echo within the community Quote RJ the Shadow wrote: What I think is an option, and an error on Valve's part for not thinking of/considering this, is to make payment optional.Was there not a thing in the music market (with CD sales only suffering more as years go by) where some artists put up a "pay what you want, or nothing at all" for the mp3's and the sales made for them reached above what they had earned on previous works?A non-negotiable option should have been to have the mod for free, with payment a convenient option (ideal with Steam have it's Wallet).There ARE people out there who want to vote with their wallet. But they're not given the option. Instead, they are forced to offer their wallet or are refused the content. And as made obvious, Valve will paywall anything, not even trusting us to use our money to show thanks.It differs from Paypal Donations because the question is directly forced upon the user. Whereas a Donation button can be skipped or ignored.Being asked on the spot if you actually want to pay nothing for the content you're about to receive, plays on our sense of morality. Quote Velgath wrote: My biggest problem with the new system as-is is it kind of screws with people using alternative modding tools like Mod Organizer. Your mod is very worth a fee, but I still wouldn't buy it if it were on Workshop... that said, I may have just clicked a button on your profile page. Quote Brumbek wrote: Thank you for the comments. Again, I'm so torn. I view myself as an average person. I don't want to be greedy or unfair. Sadly, this new system will bring out the greed in many. Valve, itself, is already pushing $1-3 weapons/armor. Then there's my mod and others like it...so much effort and passion into it. I hate to say human nature is the real issue here...SMIM does accept donations on Nexus of course (much thanks to you and others who have donated), but in truth my total donations has been very, very low. So for Steam, I see why they want to force a price...people just won't pay if they don't have to, even if they adore a mod and wouldn't play without it. I'm not judging. I will continue to develop my thoughts. Thanks again to everyone who makes this a great community. Quote heero328 wrote: Do what you have to do. I don't believe anybody would blame you for charging around $2 for SMIM. For what the mod does, that's incredibly generous on your part. I think many are more concerned with the long term implications this could have on modding and the adverse effects of it. It's not necessarily the issue of mod authors receiving money, but the fact publishers and developers are now trying to get a piece of the pie as well. Quote 1erCru wrote: Torn? Um, you have 2.3 million unique downloads. If you charge $2 bucks for the SMIM and take 25% of the cut thats over a million bucks bro. This is a game changer. Quote A1Shareef wrote: Its not greedy but think about the modding community as a howl, i bet if you write this in the description of your mod people would be happy to donate you anyway. Its not worth for 25% killing this Community and putting Gamers out there into Electronic Slavery. Plz think about it. Quote boulegue wrote: to be honest before the paid service for the steam workshop came out i have never even seen the donation button (im not using SMIM since i play on a potato) but you sir defnetly deserve donations or payment period.you can also set up your mod on both the steam workshop and the nexus and just see what happens Quote ambria wrote: @ 1erCru That's presuming everyone who'd downloaded would pay though.As someone who's made music and put it on bandcamp I can tell you the drop off between downloading for free and paying is huge, even with a tiny paywall like $0.50I'll have 100 download for free, but only 5-10 with that paywall there Quote Blademaster1215 wrote: All I'm going to say, while I very much love SMIM, and I appreciate the work you do. I would uninstall SMIM right now if you started paygating. I'd more than happily donate to you -- In fact I'll drop you 10 buck through the Nexus donation system if you don't do paygating. Quote Psijonica wrote: what is the difference if I pay or donate? If people think that they will get donations then they might as well sell them.I will never donate or pay. I will sooner stop playing these games altogether just like I don't buy music any more... There will always be a way to get these mods for free...This is a sad sad day indeed... sadder still is that the Nexus sees it's future in begging people top donate money for their modders... this place lacks vision and the Nexus will fall apart if they don't change they way they conduct business. Quote SirTopas wrote: Brumbek, I understand your position. You've put in a ton of work on SMIM and you certainly have kept it supported and working. You certainly deserve compensation for your work, but does Steam/BethSoft deserve 75% of the proceeds? Quote RJ the Shadow wrote: Torn or not, if you join in the paywall game, the rules will change. Nothing guarantees you'll get a lion's share of those 2.3 million unique downloads to be turned into people paying.And you'll still be paying a huge part of the result to Valve and Bethesda.If this proves a successful venture (for Valve) in the end, there is very little stopping these companies from looking for ways to counter websites like the Nexus. Valve has proven well enough to happily chase after any angles that make money, consequences be damned.I know, I know. It's real easy for me to talk like this and not be in your position. It's very easy for me to say that taking part could set a worse precedent for the future. And I am, deeply, sorry that you are forced to find yourself in this position.But it doesn't make it any less true. Quote EvilDeadAsh34 wrote: @1erCru You think that many people would download it if he charged? Think again.Don't get me wrong. I love what he did and i have made compatibility patches for one of my mods to work with his, but if he charged i wouldn't use it. That goes for any mod. Quote 1erCru wrote: that wasnt my point. My point was simply that a mod like SMIM could generate enough money to make millions of dollars assuming that eventually all mods will be pay to play ( I'd bet on this being true after 5-7 years, its what happens when you monetize just about anything )Even a fraction of those numbers is hundreds of thousands of dollars. I was clarifying that this isnt about making some " extra coin ". Top modders will get rich off this.Free modding is dead. Quote IgnacyOrder wrote: Im for rewarding a modder who did spend a lot of time on his work. Im not a fan of iddea that all mods will be charged. Especially before testing them out. I mean I saw a crowbar for 1$...I hope donations will work better. Especially since modder will get 100% for his work than 25% only Quote Uranium - 235 wrote: I think in part the reason donations are low is because Nexus has no unified, easy way to do it. Logging into a paypal and s#*! is just way too much work, not to mention Paypal is garbage in its own right.If I had a 'Nexus Wallet' or something where you could easily chip $0.50 or $1 in the direction of a mod with a single click of a button, that'd be one thing, but the other problem is you have to get people to fill their wallet. Quote RiffyDivine wrote: Don't make me pay steam and I'll give you two dollars but since I paid for it I will expect support and updates since I now bought something. This adds expectations on you since you are selling a product now. Quote Brumbek wrote: Thanks for the continued input. To be clear, SMIM will NEVER, EVER be removed from Skyrim Nexus. It will always be free here, ALWAYS. I've never enjoyed sharing donation info because it makes me seem like I'm pressuring people. But changes to Nexus to improve the visibility of donations would be fine of course.As for Steam, I understand people not wanting modding to die or something, but honestly I doubt that would happen. The type of people who overcharge or force people to pay are generally not the people we want in our community anyway. Also, there's no denying thousands of people on Steam way overspend on nonsense stuff. Just look at DOTA2 and CS:GO. Artists put out a simple skin and make lots of money. It pains me that people pay so much for so little...plus it tends to drown out the truly worthy content...and in my mind SMIM is worth $2 for the convenience of using Steam Workshop for casual users.For clarity, SW currently doesn't allow us to truly limit prices. We pick a default price and then the range of $0.25 to $99 always shows in the list. You can force a minimum but not maximum! I do not want to let users pay over $2 because I don't want to engage in extortion! But currently I can't limit it...hence why I'm undecided. Quote Rigmor wrote: You will eventually isolate yourself, maybe not you IF all your work is your own. But take my mod, employs a team of over 12 voice actors, who pays them? never mind about the other mod authors works included, with their kind permissions, and I worked over 1300 hours in the CK, but I cannot (wont) charge a fee. It's untenable. So why should YOU make money, but not ME? Already the split is showing.It will eventually be greed wins the day, modders will change the way they do things cynically based of making money. The users, should speak with their wallets, and NEVER entertain this disgusting act Valve and Bethesda (shame on them) have unleashed, a pandoras box, endorse and donate yes. Pay to play NO! Quote RJ the Shadow wrote: More like pay for the luxury of having it modded...sigh Quote 1erCru wrote: Rigmor you nailed it. This is real bad stuff. The money involved is just way too much. Greed never loses Quote icecreamassassin wrote: @BrumbekI too am very torn for sure. I've spent well over 5000 hours on my mod in the 1+ year it's been in development, have a half million views, 100K downloads, 2000 endorsements and maybe $120 in total donations? if I were working at McDonalds during that entire time instead of modding I could have made over $20,000. Yes I do mod because I enjoy it, but I think the VAST majority of users takes us for granted under the pretense of it being a community aimed effort, which I am very big on, but the fact of the matter is that most people won't pay for anything they can get for free if given the choice, sad fact of the matter. I do think though that the lack of exposure of the donation option is at least a little to blame. Half of folks who would donate don't even notice it and I know that if it popped up a little more often like on the download sever like the endorsement reminder does, more folks might give a few dollars. I know I certainly didn't notice the button until a user asked if I accepted them and then I looked into it and realized I could set the button up.It's a hard thing because there are so many legal and ethical ramifications to consider Quote HeloMAN wrote: +1 To Rigmor.How many mods use SKSE or other assets that aren't theirs? It's unfair to take payment for something you may have spent alot of time on...but isn't all yours. Rigmor you earn mine and many other's respect.While I currenlt don't use your mod (and never have), I may in the future, and when I do I will surely hand a few dollars over as thanks for your work if you accept donations. Don't cave in like these greedy traitors.While I can understand some people's "need" to make some money off their work, theres just too many things wrong with it. Plus, if they really can't work on their mods because of limitations, then stop. Modding is about the enjoyment, not about money, and if you cease to enjoy it or simply cannot do it, then stop.EDIT: LOL one of my posts was deleted, nice censorship nexus mods! Can't believe they are supporting steam's workshop BS. Quote ambria wrote: I'm very skeptical that even the biggest of the big modders could "get rich" from this.Because of the aforementioned drop off from free to pay wall, plus the 75% cut taken.It would have to be a very big and popular mod, and those normally include a lot of mod resources, voice actors, quality insurance testers, you name it, and the mod author would have to be giving all those a cut??I think the best a mod author could hope to make out of this would equate to minimum wage when compared to the hours they put in.But I could be wrong, I guess we'll see Quote ramccoid wrote: We are here to play a game, it's a game not life. We mod to make the game more enjoyable and we share that experience, so others can enjoy the difference we have made. Where does money come in to it. Quote antipax wrote: 1erCru: 2 million downloads over a few years, and unless he removed SMIM from the Nexus, people will still download the free, old version from here, not to mention who already downloaded it won't have to download it again, especially just for an update as it works pretty well. Quote RiffyDivine wrote: You've got to remember that if a high price is set for a type of mod, let's say armor mods. If I charge 25 USD for it then the next guy to upload one will go s#*! I like 25 USD also then you set a standard of high prices and people will pay it making it a standard. I'd sooner pay you to not be on steam. Quote iceburg wrote: You're mod is a delight and a necessity. It scares me that someone may realize the profit in stealing other peoples mods and placing them up for sale on steam. Now we mod authors need to monitor our mods on the nexus, and on steam, or someone could profit from our work!Seems like a nightmare situation to me. Quote jediakyrol wrote: holy crap, man...don't know how I've passed over your mod before...I am downloading, endorsing, and sending you a fiver right now! Quote mcguffin wrote: Just a thought:Endorsements show the number of people who actually care enough to just click something to say thank you, so people who will give money will be far lower, imho Quote Brumbek wrote: @Rigmor: great points. Charging for mods does suddenly make us competitors. I obviously can't say your whole group deserves less than my mod. I would never want to imply my mod deserves anything. But this is the nature of the free market I suppose. People will pay for one thing over another. And often what people pay for is less deserving than something else. Valve are masters of getting people to pay for dumb stuff. CS:GO knives prove the insanity of the human mind.@icecreamassassin: point taken.Now I'm even more torn than ever! Thanks guys!! ;) At the end of the day though, the honest truth is I've come back to modding today because of this announcement...I'd like to think not out of greed but just...practicality? Quote mkess wrote: Maybe the donation button should be a button direct behind the download button, with "If you like this mod, donate" Or something like that, with direct use of paypal. As a matter of fact, paypal was fdeveloped exactly for that reason.The button to be able to pay someone for his time and efforts should be more in palin side, and it should be worked into the mod-manager, too. Directly beside the endorse function. Because if you think about endorsing something, you are only one step away from spending a little money on it. And make it very easy to spend money. No registration. Only ONE click. I sometimes do not give any money at all, if I have to register with at least 10 data fields. Holy crap, are the insane? It should be as easy as taking a coin out of my purse, and gve it to someone.That's my oppinion. Quote Teria23 wrote: I think you may get more people to donate if you simply state that you won't move SMIM over to the Dark Side, no matter how many cookies they offer... Quote NoDebate wrote: Brumbek, I love SMIM. It's on my list with SkyUI and SKSE as mods I install regardless. All three are quintessential to improving the overall Skyrim experience. They're absolutely necessary. SMIM is high quality, unobtrusive, and fixes a great many things noticed (and appreciated) by those of us with an eye for detail. That said, charging two bucks for SMIM is not greedy. I find it to be reasonable for the work you've put into the project.However, as the current Steam Workshop model stands, a two dollar price tag turns into some fifty cents for you, given your work manages to sell so many copies. What has been offered up by Steam in exchange for taking the other 1.50? A little bit of advertising? A self regulated market? What has been offered by Bethesda for failing to provide appropriate meshes in the first place? Are they providing staff to assist you in creating, maintaining, or troubleshooting SMIM? I'm having a hard time now justifying the two bucks, knowing that 1.50 is going to plop on top of the eighty-some (for the game + DLC) I've given to some combination of Valve and Bethesda.I sympathize with your current position. You see an opportunity for some compensation and want that. I get it. What human being doesn't want to be formally recognized and compensated for their artistic work? Popular artistic work. Why do YouTubers doing mod spotlights make a bit of cash and you don't? Fifty cents is better than zero cents, right? Perhaps. However (and now I will fear-monger a bit), what does that 1.50 communicate in the long run? That a team of professionals can skip by on low-poly meshes and let ole' Brumbek fix up their Nuka-Cola machines in Fallout 4 with his FMIM? Take a 75% cut of his pricetag to boot? Smells like fishsticks to me.All this comes with a million and one questions regarding a "self-regulated market." To name a few... What determines the pricetag on a mod? As you've said and as I've seen, we already have minor cosmetics for a couple bucks as the recommended price tag. Chesko's Art of the Catch is essentially Skyrim Mod Early Access. Is there any accountability there? What determines a completed mod? Stable mod? Compatible mod? Can we trade mods on the Steam Market? Am I refunded if a mod no longer satisfies certain requirements? Am I refunded if a mod is no longer maintained? You get my point. I don't have any strong feelings regarding what you should do. I appreciate you communicating your concerns to the 'general public' and would welcome the opportunity to continue the discussion.@NoDebate: great points, NoDebate (ah, the irony). You do have a good point about what it communicates if I let Valve/Bethesda take the large portion of my efforts. But my efforts would be impossible without their efforts. Ultimately, they take the majority of the money because *they can*. Those with the power, dictate the rules.The question I still wonder: will charging on Steam Workshop truly worsen modding? Again, it will be the charlatans and the greedy who overrun Steam Workshop, ultimately ruining it for everyone. So yes, should someone like me, a self-proclaimed nice guy who just loves modding, join the ugly fray? I don't know...I have these delusions that maybe the masses will recognize quality. Maybe I'm too optimistic. Thanks again, keep the discussion going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eleglas Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 This... is the worst day I have had in a very long time. I'm marking the day, because I think modding just died today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeynutz76 Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 In response to post #24565684. #24565749, #24565819, #24565874, #24565944, #24566139, #24566154, #24566189, #24566214, #24566264, #24566339, #24566349, #24566439, #24566459, #24566504, #24566524, #24566569, #24566579, #24566644, #24566769, #24566779, #24566819, #24566909, #24566934, #24567024, #24567079, #24567154, #24567239, #24567264, #24567269, #24567344, #24567354, #24567469, #24567539, #24567564, #24567664, #24568174, #24568504 are all replies on the same post. Reveal hidden contents Quote Brumbek wrote: Quote Zaldiir wrote: Wait a little bit. See if the updated donation system here on NexusMods will make more people donate. :thumbsup:If it doesn't increase the amount of donations, then I don't blame you for wanting just a little bit of compensation for your hours of work. $1 or $2 is definitely not greedy - just a shock for a lot of people. Quote athiust wrote: Your awesome you have caused alot of joy in alot of people and have created satisfaction and an echo within the community Quote RJ the Shadow wrote: What I think is an option, and an error on Valve's part for not thinking of/considering this, is to make payment optional.Was there not a thing in the music market (with CD sales only suffering more as years go by) where some artists put up a "pay what you want, or nothing at all" for the mp3's and the sales made for them reached above what they had earned on previous works?A non-negotiable option should have been to have the mod for free, with payment a convenient option (ideal with Steam have it's Wallet).There ARE people out there who want to vote with their wallet. But they're not given the option. Instead, they are forced to offer their wallet or are refused the content. And as made obvious, Valve will paywall anything, not even trusting us to use our money to show thanks.It differs from Paypal Donations because the question is directly forced upon the user. Whereas a Donation button can be skipped or ignored.Being asked on the spot if you actually want to pay nothing for the content you're about to receive, plays on our sense of morality. Quote Velgath wrote: My biggest problem with the new system as-is is it kind of screws with people using alternative modding tools like Mod Organizer. Your mod is very worth a fee, but I still wouldn't buy it if it were on Workshop... that said, I may have just clicked a button on your profile page. Quote Brumbek wrote: Thank you for the comments. Again, I'm so torn. I view myself as an average person. I don't want to be greedy or unfair. Sadly, this new system will bring out the greed in many. Valve, itself, is already pushing $1-3 weapons/armor. Then there's my mod and others like it...so much effort and passion into it. I hate to say human nature is the real issue here...SMIM does accept donations on Nexus of course (much thanks to you and others who have donated), but in truth my total donations has been very, very low. So for Steam, I see why they want to force a price...people just won't pay if they don't have to, even if they adore a mod and wouldn't play without it. I'm not judging. I will continue to develop my thoughts. Thanks again to everyone who makes this a great community. Quote heero328 wrote: Do what you have to do. I don't believe anybody would blame you for charging around $2 for SMIM. For what the mod does, that's incredibly generous on your part. I think many are more concerned with the long term implications this could have on modding and the adverse effects of it. It's not necessarily the issue of mod authors receiving money, but the fact publishers and developers are now trying to get a piece of the pie as well. Quote 1erCru wrote: Torn? Um, you have 2.3 million unique downloads. If you charge $2 bucks for the SMIM and take 25% of the cut thats over a million bucks bro. This is a game changer. Quote A1Shareef wrote: Its not greedy but think about the modding community as a howl, i bet if you write this in the description of your mod people would be happy to donate you anyway. Its not worth for 25% killing this Community and putting Gamers out there into Electronic Slavery. Plz think about it. Quote boulegue wrote: to be honest before the paid service for the steam workshop came out i have never even seen the donation button (im not using SMIM since i play on a potato) but you sir defnetly deserve donations or payment period.you can also set up your mod on both the steam workshop and the nexus and just see what happens Quote ambria wrote: @ 1erCru That's presuming everyone who'd downloaded would pay though.As someone who's made music and put it on bandcamp I can tell you the drop off between downloading for free and paying is huge, even with a tiny paywall like $0.50I'll have 100 download for free, but only 5-10 with that paywall there Quote Blademaster1215 wrote: All I'm going to say, while I very much love SMIM, and I appreciate the work you do. I would uninstall SMIM right now if you started paygating. I'd more than happily donate to you -- In fact I'll drop you 10 buck through the Nexus donation system if you don't do paygating. Quote Psijonica wrote: what is the difference if I pay or donate? If people think that they will get donations then they might as well sell them.I will never donate or pay. I will sooner stop playing these games altogether just like I don't buy music any more... There will always be a way to get these mods for free...This is a sad sad day indeed... sadder still is that the Nexus sees it's future in begging people top donate money for their modders... this place lacks vision and the Nexus will fall apart if they don't change they way they conduct business. Quote SirTopas wrote: Brumbek, I understand your position. You've put in a ton of work on SMIM and you certainly have kept it supported and working. You certainly deserve compensation for your work, but does Steam/BethSoft deserve 75% of the proceeds? Quote RJ the Shadow wrote: Torn or not, if you join in the paywall game, the rules will change. Nothing guarantees you'll get a lion's share of those 2.3 million unique downloads to be turned into people paying.And you'll still be paying a huge part of the result to Valve and Bethesda.If this proves a successful venture (for Valve) in the end, there is very little stopping these companies from looking for ways to counter websites like the Nexus. Valve has proven well enough to happily chase after any angles that make money, consequences be damned.I know, I know. It's real easy for me to talk like this and not be in your position. It's very easy for me to say that taking part could set a worse precedent for the future. And I am, deeply, sorry that you are forced to find yourself in this position.But it doesn't make it any less true. Quote EvilDeadAsh34 wrote: @1erCru You think that many people would download it if he charged? Think again.Don't get me wrong. I love what he did and i have made compatibility patches for one of my mods to work with his, but if he charged i wouldn't use it. That goes for any mod. Quote 1erCru wrote: that wasnt my point. My point was simply that a mod like SMIM could generate enough money to make millions of dollars assuming that eventually all mods will be pay to play ( I'd bet on this being true after 5-7 years, its what happens when you monetize just about anything )Even a fraction of those numbers is hundreds of thousands of dollars. I was clarifying that this isnt about making some " extra coin ". Top modders will get rich off this.Free modding is dead. Quote IgnacyOrder wrote: Im for rewarding a modder who did spend a lot of time on his work. Im not a fan of iddea that all mods will be charged. Especially before testing them out. I mean I saw a crowbar for 1$...I hope donations will work better. Especially since modder will get 100% for his work than 25% only Quote Uranium - 235 wrote: I think in part the reason donations are low is because Nexus has no unified, easy way to do it. Logging into a paypal and s#*! is just way too much work, not to mention Paypal is garbage in its own right.If I had a 'Nexus Wallet' or something where you could easily chip $0.50 or $1 in the direction of a mod with a single click of a button, that'd be one thing, but the other problem is you have to get people to fill their wallet. Quote RiffyDivine wrote: Don't make me pay steam and I'll give you two dollars but since I paid for it I will expect support and updates since I now bought something. This adds expectations on you since you are selling a product now. Quote Brumbek wrote: Thanks for the continued input. To be clear, SMIM will NEVER, EVER be removed from Skyrim Nexus. It will always be free here, ALWAYS. I've never enjoyed sharing donation info because it makes me seem like I'm pressuring people. But changes to Nexus to improve the visibility of donations would be fine of course.As for Steam, I understand people not wanting modding to die or something, but honestly I doubt that would happen. The type of people who overcharge or force people to pay are generally not the people we want in our community anyway. Also, there's no denying thousands of people on Steam way overspend on nonsense stuff. Just look at DOTA2 and CS:GO. Artists put out a simple skin and make lots of money. It pains me that people pay so much for so little...plus it tends to drown out the truly worthy content...and in my mind SMIM is worth $2 for the convenience of using Steam Workshop for casual users.For clarity, SW currently doesn't allow us to truly limit prices. We pick a default price and then the range of $0.25 to $99 always shows in the list. You can force a minimum but not maximum! I do not want to let users pay over $2 because I don't want to engage in extortion! But currently I can't limit it...hence why I'm undecided. Quote Rigmor wrote: You will eventually isolate yourself, maybe not you IF all your work is your own. But take my mod, employs a team of over 12 voice actors, who pays them? never mind about the other mod authors works included, with their kind permissions, and I worked over 1300 hours in the CK, but I cannot (wont) charge a fee. It's untenable. So why should YOU make money, but not ME? Already the split is showing.It will eventually be greed wins the day, modders will change the way they do things cynically based of making money. The users, should speak with their wallets, and NEVER entertain this disgusting act Valve and Bethesda (shame on them) have unleashed, a pandoras box, endorse and donate yes. Pay to play NO! Quote RJ the Shadow wrote: More like pay for the luxury of having it modded...sigh Quote 1erCru wrote: Rigmor you nailed it. This is real bad stuff. The money involved is just way too much. Greed never loses Quote icecreamassassin wrote: @BrumbekI too am very torn for sure. I've spent well over 5000 hours on my mod in the 1+ year it's been in development, have a half million views, 100K downloads, 2000 endorsements and maybe $120 in total donations? if I were working at McDonalds during that entire time instead of modding I could have made over $20,000. Yes I do mod because I enjoy it, but I think the VAST majority of users takes us for granted under the pretense of it being a community aimed effort, which I am very big on, but the fact of the matter is that most people won't pay for anything they can get for free if given the choice, sad fact of the matter. I do think though that the lack of exposure of the donation option is at least a little to blame. Half of folks who would donate don't even notice it and I know that if it popped up a little more often like on the download sever like the endorsement reminder does, more folks might give a few dollars. I know I certainly didn't notice the button until a user asked if I accepted them and then I looked into it and realized I could set the button up.It's a hard thing because there are so many legal and ethical ramifications to consider Quote HeloMAN wrote: +1 To Rigmor.How many mods use SKSE or other assets that aren't theirs? It's unfair to take payment for something you may have spent alot of time on...but isn't all yours. Rigmor you earn mine and many other's respect.While I currenlt don't use your mod (and never have), I may in the future, and when I do I will surely hand a few dollars over as thanks for your work if you accept donations. Don't cave in like these greedy traitors.While I can understand some people's "need" to make some money off their work, theres just too many things wrong with it. Plus, if they really can't work on their mods because of limitations, then stop. Modding is about the enjoyment, not about money, and if you cease to enjoy it or simply cannot do it, then stop.EDIT: LOL one of my posts was deleted, nice censorship nexus mods! Can't believe they are supporting steam's workshop BS. Quote ambria wrote: I'm very skeptical that even the biggest of the big modders could "get rich" from this.Because of the aforementioned drop off from free to pay wall, plus the 75% cut taken.It would have to be a very big and popular mod, and those normally include a lot of mod resources, voice actors, quality insurance testers, you name it, and the mod author would have to be giving all those a cut??I think the best a mod author could hope to make out of this would equate to minimum wage when compared to the hours they put in.But I could be wrong, I guess we'll see Quote ramccoid wrote: We are here to play a game, it's a game not life. We mod to make the game more enjoyable and we share that experience, so others can enjoy the difference we have made. Where does money come in to it. Quote antipax wrote: 1erCru: 2 million downloads over a few years, and unless he removed SMIM from the Nexus, people will still download the free, old version from here, not to mention who already downloaded it won't have to download it again, especially just for an update as it works pretty well. Quote RiffyDivine wrote: You've got to remember that if a high price is set for a type of mod, let's say armor mods. If I charge 25 USD for it then the next guy to upload one will go s#*! I like 25 USD also then you set a standard of high prices and people will pay it making it a standard. I'd sooner pay you to not be on steam. Quote iceburg wrote: You're mod is a delight and a necessity. It scares me that someone may realize the profit in stealing other peoples mods and placing them up for sale on steam. Now we mod authors need to monitor our mods on the nexus, and on steam, or someone could profit from our work!Seems like a nightmare situation to me. Quote jediakyrol wrote: holy crap, man...don't know how I've passed over your mod before...I am downloading, endorsing, and sending you a fiver right now! Quote mcguffin wrote: Just a thought:Endorsements show the number of people who actually care enough to just click something to say thank you, so people who will give money will be far lower, imho Quote Brumbek wrote: @Rigmor: great points. Charging for mods does suddenly make us competitors. I obviously can't say your whole group deserves less than my mod. I would never want to imply my mod deserves anything. But this is the nature of the free market I suppose. People will pay for one thing over another. And often what people pay for is less deserving than something else. Valve are masters of getting people to pay for dumb stuff. CS:GO knives prove the insanity of the human mind.@icecreamassassin: point taken.Now I'm even more torn than ever! Thanks guys!! ;) At the end of the day though, the honest truth is I've come back to modding today because of this announcement...I'd like to think not out of greed but just...practicality? Quote mkess wrote: Maybe the donation button should be a button direct behind the download button, with "If you like this mod, donate" Or something like that, with direct use of paypal. As a matter of fact, paypal was fdeveloped exactly for that reason.The button to be able to pay someone for his time and efforts should be more in palin side, and it should be worked into the mod-manager, too. Directly beside the endorse function. Because if you think about endorsing something, you are only one step away from spending a little money on it. And make it very easy to spend money. No registration. Only ONE click. I sometimes do not give any money at all, if I have to register with at least 10 data fields. Holy crap, are the insane? It should be as easy as taking a coin out of my purse, and gve it to someone.That's my oppinion. Quote Teria23 wrote: I think you may get more people to donate if you simply state that you won't move SMIM over to the Dark Side, no matter how many cookies they offer... Quote NoDebate wrote: Brumbek, I love SMIM. It's on my list with SkyUI and SKSE as mods I install regardless. All three are quintessential to improving the overall Skyrim experience. They're absolutely necessary. SMIM is high quality, unobtrusive, and fixes a great many things noticed (and appreciated) by those of us with an eye for detail. That said, charging two bucks for SMIM is not greedy. I find it to be reasonable for the work you've put into the project.However, as the current Steam Workshop model stands, a two dollar price tag turns into some fifty cents for you, given your work manages to sell so many copies. What has been offered up by Steam in exchange for taking the other 1.50? A little bit of advertising? A self regulated market? What has been offered by Bethesda for failing to provide appropriate meshes in the first place? Are they providing staff to assist you in creating, maintaining, or troubleshooting SMIM? I'm having a hard time now justifying the two bucks, knowing that 1.50 is going to plop on top of the eighty-some (for the game + DLC) I've given to some combination of Valve and Bethesda.I sympathize with your current position. You see an opportunity for some compensation and want that. I get it. What human being doesn't want to be formally recognized and compensated for their artistic work? Popular artistic work. Why do YouTubers doing mod spotlights make a bit of cash and you don't? Fifty cents is better than zero cents, right? Perhaps. However (and now I will fear-monger a bit), what does that 1.50 communicate in the long run? That a team of professionals can skip by on low-poly meshes and let ole' Brumbek fix up their Nuka-Cola machines in Fallout 4 with his FMIM? Take a 75% cut of his pricetag to boot? Smells like fishsticks to me.All this comes with a million and one questions regarding a "self-regulated market." To name a few... What determines the pricetag on a mod? As you've said and as I've seen, we already have minor cosmetics for a couple bucks as the recommended price tag. Chesko's Art of the Catch is essentially Skyrim Mod Early Access. Is there any accountability there? What determines a completed mod? Stable mod? Compatible mod? Can we trade mods on the Steam Market? Am I refunded if a mod no longer satisfies certain requirements? Am I refunded if a mod is no longer maintained? You get my point. I don't have any strong feelings regarding what you should do. I appreciate you communicating your concerns to the 'general public' and would welcome the opportunity to continue the discussion. Quote Brumbek wrote: @NoDebate: great points, NoDebate (ah, the irony). You do have a good point about what it communicates if I let Valve/Bethesda take the large portion of my efforts. But my efforts would be impossible without their efforts. Ultimately, they take the majority of the money because *they can*. Those with the power, dictate the rules.The question I still wonder: will charging on Steam Workshop truly worsen modding? Again, it will be the charlatans and the greedy who overrun Steam Workshop, ultimately ruining it for everyone. So yes, should someone like me, a self-proclaimed nice guy who just loves modding, join the ugly fray? I don't know...I have these delusions that maybe the masses will recognize quality. Maybe I'm too optimistic. Thanks again, keep the discussion going.as a part time modder myself I'm having the same delema many have donated there hard earned funds in thanks to my various mods on mount and blade FONV and skyrim but i find Very few donate .. even when they post how wonderful the mod is and heap praise upon my many hours .. sometimes months or in one case years of work ... while it is true i do it out of some sort of twisted love and desire to produce excellence in each of my mods ... yes im being cagey about which ones as many have an X disclaimer here .....the thought of being paid each download is appealing i wont deny. however i still believe that you should not be forced to pay for something you may not enjoy .... perhaps a trial period for each mod could offset the instant pain for each mod as well as a maximum fee cap so some of the greedy types can be controlled im not an advocate for the PAY TO PLAY system we are being forced to swallow like a load of ....that being said instant gratification is rather nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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