Steam Service Providers, and some how needing to clarify the Nexus stance again

[chaotix14]

Do I like the way steam currently is going about with the workshop(including deleting all donation links they find). No. Do I think paid modding could work and be positive for all sides? Yes. SkyUI is a great example of this, let me explain:

 

First of all, he left the modding scene simply having not enough time to work on mods. So without paid modding 4.1 would have been the final version of that particular mod. And he has mentioned letting it stay and be free forever here on nexus. So the fact that 5.0 is coming is simply the effect of him getting the resources he needed to make the time for it. So he could finish that last part he wanted to overhaul(the bad crafting menu's).

 

Secondly, we all know MCM is a major part of SkyUI. Schlangster has mentioned that any changes/updates to this framework will also find their way into the free version. Look, here's a person saying: "Yes, I could easily make money from you all by making you pay for something that is crucial for a lot of mods, but I'm not gonna do that, free users will still get full support on that front." And there are people putting him down as a traitor of the modding community.

 

 

Disclaimer: I do a load of crafting in Skyrim, make my own weapons, my own armor, enchant it, make potions, and any jewelry I find I'll enchant to sell for a profit. Long story short, I do a lot of crafting, so SKyUI going around and trying to make something out of that mess of menu's sounds like a godsend. And I will probably buy it for the 1$ minimum(any more I feel it deserves will go via nexus, that way he get's the best cut of the money I can give him), after I've had a good chance to look at the finished product.

[twisted630]

i'll say it again. we, as human beings. already pay for so much in our life these days.

Medical bills.

Cable bills.

Internet bills.

Gas bills.

Water bills.

Electric bills.

House rent.

Vehicals.

Gas for said vehicals.

Clothes.

Food.

Netflix.

Movies.

More Games.

Computers.

Consoles.

Computer parts.

Console parts.

one or more MMO subscription.

and so, so much more that we're already paying for. and it all cost a lot and adds up. so now you know why most people don't want to have to pay for mods too. mods are the best kind of free things you can get these days that adds to that and come in all qualities. sure there are bad mods and there are some amazing and fantastic and great free mods. you will hardly find such quality anything else that is free. but on the other hand, that could also be a very good reason to want to get some money out of creating a mod because everything else is not cheap or free to maintain.

[micnorian14]

Valve knew this would happen. They used people, are still using people, and clearly intend to keep using people to monetize our community. It's disgusting and people need to realize this before they try and defend any of Valve's actions. Skyrim was untouched for years by Beth and Valve. Then this...greed.

 

I can't stomach the fact that they might actually buy-off SKSE, nifskope, and TESVedit! You are a fool if you think paid mods will help anything! None of us would be here today if money were involved in sharing mods the past decade! DLC not enough for them anymore? Need another source of revenue? Don't care if the entire community is falling apart at the seams as long as its filling someone's pockets? Thousands of people have literally been screaming at their monitors for the past 3 days like me and signing some flimsy petition and ranting on forums is the best anyone can do! I emailed Valve directly for Christs sake! Who does that???

Edited April 27, 2015 by micnorian14

[Axhoff2007]

In response to post #24710974.

KaiserDeathIV wrote:

Where will this end? What is next? Will the future multiplayer Call of Duty be nothing but a $60 store front where you buy maps, equipment, guns and ammo separately before you can play? It must end somewhere, right?

[NordHep]

Well I am not going to use the Steam Workshop for mods, that is for sure.

I don't really think I do have any active mods that are from there anyways. But this just makes it even more less tempting to use it...

[mannygt]

In response to post #24711659.

micnorian14 wrote:

It's a shock for all of us, for sure but it's a storm that needs to be calmed. You can't stop the paid mods and I am a modder which gives free mods.
Just look at this: http://steamcommunity.com//sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=430159429&searchtext=
Check the subscribers amount, they're who paid the mod.

and now check this: http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/65034/?
Check the endorsement amount

Do the Math.

[Acidbuk]

In response to post #24682284. #24682924, #24688774, #24689099, #24689669 are all replies on the same post.

Acidbuk wrote:

sunshinenbrick wrote: Good points. What I am trying to find out is where the morality, the respect in all of this.

I asked a question earlier but I think it got lost among the longer posts.

When the first Beth sdk was released was it just a big TOC or was there a friendly dialouge between the developer and community?

My reason for asking is becasue the way that the pay for mods has been rolled out is very cruel to the authors who made them because they made them out of the good will and love of games, with I imagine the blessing of Beth... I mean they have had some 10 years to take legal action.

My point is that this is a nasty way to intrduce their customers to the developing world of digital copyright. Why is there no communication from them? Why not talk to their audiences like adults as let's face it, most of us saw something like this was inevitable. But why oh why so aggressively? Or just plain clumsy??

Acidbuk wrote: Bethesda has a history of just dropping the creation-kit with an EULA that when you crunch down the legal speak boils to "Go Nuts. Just don't charge anyone for it". which is standard fare for most SDK's from pretty much any Developer that puts one out. Oh I agree with you, this is an absolutely brutal way to introduce a community that has co-operated for years, to the concept of digital copyright and licensing. licensing is not something anyone really wants to do, its one of those necessary evils which come part and parcel of Software development and its amazingly awesome that as a community we (collectively Users and Creators) have been able to avoid using them, instead using an informal "Please don't steal my stuff just ask if you want to use it" unfortunately as this moves forward, we are almost certainly going to see the term "licensing" as things formalise up between paid and Free mods and what can and cannot be used. I suspect Bethesda will keep quiet and ride out the storm of malcontent until things dye down, then they'll come out with some PR speak about 'We are Bethesda value your input on the recent opportunities for monetization of mods, and we are listening to your feed back and moving forward together with the community'

As for why now? that I couldn't tell you., I would kind of get it if they did this for Fallout 4 or TES-6 whenever that comes out because your dealing with a blank slate. but injecting this into an already vibrant and established ecosystem? is like introducing an invasive plant species. Everyone is scrambling - I really have Sympathy for Robin/Dark0ne right now, Guy had to cancel a holiday to deal with the fallout (no pun intended) from this, between Mod authors taking their mods down to migrate to the workshop, other mod authors scrambling to take their mods down because they are afraid someone will take their work and put IT on the workshop for money as their own (DMCA's are no easy thing), and users trying to download as many mods as they can in panic in case their favourite mods go Pay-Wall. its got to be just a little bit insane, investing all that time and money in the infrastructure upgrade was forward thinking. just not in the way he would have liked I guess.

I do find Valves/Bethesda TOC's morally questionable, in particular how its al-edged Chesko was told by a Valve employee that it was okay to use someone else's free content and include that and charge of it and not have to ask any permission what so-ever, that is not Chesko fault. However I find the concept of Early Access Mods Morally dubious - Early access it and of itself is tittering on the brink, paying for Early Access mods is so far down the slippery slope that I doubt you could even see the top any more.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I think they did it before the realease of the new games so all this stuff thats happening now will have (in their hopeful opinion) died down by then.

Jake_Dragon wrote: Sorry posted in the wrong place

But that's the thing yeah. it doesn't make sense from a business of physiological perspective. it they were trying to warm people up to the idea of paid mods its far easier to do warm people up to it on a new Product, and with an existing one. For Better or worse Most people people are psychologically firm with the idea mods should be free. - Right or wrong, I'm just saying that's how it is because its "the way its always been". so trying to change that with a new Product is much much better than trying to Bludgeon it into an existing IP like Skyrim because there is a LOT of fear, a whole big lot of it heaped in large ominous spades, because people are afraid of losing their favourite mods. or because of the interconnected nature of mods - having to buy one mod to play another one. its a rabbit warren than don't end.

. I don't think they would have had anywhere near the backlash if they'd made this change for Fallout 4 or TES6 because people aren't as .psychologically invested in the idea of Mods being free, so long as Bethesda had given assurances that they'd not be introducing this retro-actively for other games. people would have taken them at their word and it would have been far less turmoil. now, that trust is broken and Good Will is something you cannot buy, its earned,

[Megla]

Hi Dark0ne. Id just like to ask if you are able to rework the donation system a bit to include more options. I refuse to use the Workshop for mods since it has a habit of breaking my saved games and the deal there is just not resonable towards modders. But the current options are not something i can use, and im sure many others have the same issue. So it would be really great to include options like paysafe cards and so on for those of us that do not have credit card access.

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24682284. #24682924, #24688774, #24689099, #24689669, #24712014, #24712869 are all replies on the same post.

Acidbuk wrote:

sunshinenbrick wrote: Good points. What I am trying to find out is where the morality, the respect in all of this.

I asked a question earlier but I think it got lost among the longer posts.

When the first Beth sdk was released was it just a big TOC or was there a friendly dialouge between the developer and community?

My reason for asking is becasue the way that the pay for mods has been rolled out is very cruel to the authors who made them because they made them out of the good will and love of games, with I imagine the blessing of Beth... I mean they have had some 10 years to take legal action.

My point is that this is a nasty way to intrduce their customers to the developing world of digital copyright. Why is there no communication from them? Why not talk to their audiences like adults as let's face it, most of us saw something like this was inevitable. But why oh why so aggressively? Or just plain clumsy??

Acidbuk wrote: Bethesda has a history of just dropping the creation-kit with an EULA that when you crunch down the legal speak boils to "Go Nuts. Just don't charge anyone for it". which is standard fare for most SDK's from pretty much any Developer that puts one out. Oh I agree with you, this is an absolutely brutal way to introduce a community that has co-operated for years, to the concept of digital copyright and licensing. licensing is not something anyone really wants to do, its one of those necessary evils which come part and parcel of Software development and its amazingly awesome that as a community we (collectively Users and Creators) have been able to avoid using them, instead using an informal "Please don't steal my stuff just ask if you want to use it" unfortunately as this moves forward, we are almost certainly going to see the term "licensing" as things formalise up between paid and Free mods and what can and cannot be used. I suspect Bethesda will keep quiet and ride out the storm of malcontent until things dye down, then they'll come out with some PR speak about 'We are Bethesda value your input on the recent opportunities for monetization of mods, and we are listening to your feed back and moving forward together with the community'

As for why now? that I couldn't tell you., I would kind of get it if they did this for Fallout 4 or TES-6 whenever that comes out because your dealing with a blank slate. but injecting this into an already vibrant and established ecosystem? is like introducing an invasive plant species. Everyone is scrambling - I really have Sympathy for Robin/Dark0ne right now, Guy had to cancel a holiday to deal with the fallout (no pun intended) from this, between Mod authors taking their mods down to migrate to the workshop, other mod authors scrambling to take their mods down because they are afraid someone will take their work and put IT on the workshop for money as their own (DMCA's are no easy thing), and users trying to download as many mods as they can in panic in case their favourite mods go Pay-Wall. its got to be just a little bit insane, investing all that time and money in the infrastructure upgrade was forward thinking. just not in the way he would have liked I guess.

I do find Valves/Bethesda TOC's morally questionable, in particular how its al-edged Chesko was told by a Valve employee that it was okay to use someone else's free content and include that and charge of it and not have to ask any permission what so-ever, that is not Chesko fault. However I find the concept of Early Access Mods Morally dubious - Early access it and of itself is tittering on the brink, paying for Early Access mods is so far down the slippery slope that I doubt you could even see the top any more.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I think they did it before the realease of the new games so all this stuff thats happening now will have (in their hopeful opinion) died down by then.

Jake_Dragon wrote: Sorry posted in the wrong place

Acidbuk wrote: But that's the thing yeah. it doesn't make sense from a business of physiological perspective. it they were trying to warm people up to the idea of paid mods its far easier to do warm people up to it on a new Product, and with an existing one. For Better or worse Most people people are psychologically firm with the idea mods should be free. - Right or wrong, I'm just saying that's how it is because its "the way its always been". so trying to change that with a new Product is much much better than trying to Bludgeon it into an existing IP like Skyrim because there is a LOT of fear, a whole big lot of it heaped in large ominous spades, because people are afraid of losing their favourite mods. or because of the interconnected nature of mods - having to buy one mod to play another one. its a rabbit warren than don't end.

. I don't think they would have had anywhere near the backlash if they'd made this change for Fallout 4 or TES6 because people aren't as .psychologically invested in the idea of Mods being free, so long as Bethesda had given assurances that they'd not be introducing this retro-actively for other games. people would have taken them at their word and it would have been far less turmoil. now, that trust is broken and Good Will is something you cannot buy, its earned,

hangman04 wrote: the only think they Beth could do, the least, is to invest a fraction of the revenues in the functionality of the CK, cause the better their sdk is, the greater the possibility to make complex mods, which can be charged to a dlc level and can probably attract professional groups, small indie studios etc.

On the other hand it is possible on long term that this new way of earning money may attract other distributors that may want to compete Valve, and which way is best to compete than giving the author a better cut of the deal.

I think they need the people on the Nexus (and other free communities) on board more than they would like to let on... the reason? Cuz Fallout 4 and Elder Scrolls VI will more than likely be glitchy unoptimised games. The younger, less experienced console generation who are now moving back to the PC market will be lost, have to start from scratch... without the Nexus, SKSE LOOT and NMM teams, who will at the end of the day be the people who will be driving this whole paid modding "revolution" forward.

This does bring me to the wider point though that there is a conflict of interest here. The way it used to be is that we paid ~£45 for our games... they had massive potential and were pretty amazing but (as someone put it earlier) not even close to the experience gained through using mods... in many cases the game was unplayable, remember the whole Skyboost Application Layer scenario. But that price paid for everything, tools, games sdk all in a nice package. What seems to be forgotten is modders will not be excempt from having to pay for other mods that are not their own, including possible software licences that are not owned by Bethesda.

The point is modders were more inclined to work on these because Bethesda were under a legal obligation to provide a working game. Now, not necessarily so. While there is potential for modders to have some well earned revenue, there will be this playing field where the responsibilities between developer and modder become even more blurry than they are now. There has already been cases of modders complaining they now have to spend more time watching out for copyright and technical issues than they used to because there seems to already be little effort from the developers end in regards to moderation and quality control. Welcome to the slippery slope of mission creep, subscription and thus, recurring costs.

EDIT: I do not think the problem is so much that a modder should be allowed to charge, what is the issue is exactly how, how much and whether they are being exploited or not. Edited April 27, 2015 by sunshinenbrick

[captainhalfajob]

I don't know why Bethesda are allowing this ? wouldn't it make sense to just give out a big one million dollar cash prize yearly to who ever makes the best mod ?