Steam and Bethesda remove paid modding from Skyrim Workshop

Fowldragon · April 28, 2015

In response to post #24765204. #24765939, #24766349, #24766914 are all replies on the same post.

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Before we start using similes and analogies, we should probably have some Idea other than ASSUMPTION as to what it feels like to be homeless.What level of gratitude a homeless person feels for the few people who show TANGIBLY that they give a damn.

I have an extensive collection of mods under a different nick...I honestly have NEVER donated to any of them but my endorsements are in the mid 90th percentile. I only don't endorse what I DON"T like.

There's no lack of hyperbole here..some of it understandable. But unless you've slept in your car or a BOX out of financial necessity..gone hungry...and all the other indignities of being homeless..reserve your opinions to those things you have knowledge of and experience with.

Orangeplz · April 28, 2015

In response to post #24767664.

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Humanity's always sucked ass :/

FireDragonFly · April 28, 2015

I would like to say, Thanks to all the modders. What you have done for myself and others to enjoy the world of Skyrim has been much appreciated by me, and many others.

The work that has been done to improve this game amazes me.

I used to play an online game, that was magnificient, until it was taken over by greedy, uncaring, big corporate,money grabbing, thieves, that cared nothing about the community, or loyalty.

Eventually you had to run and escape. The community turned on one another, and the hate, and anger, filled the forums.It spread onto other forums, and sites.

I miss this game still, and all the friends i made both in the game, and the forums, but it would never be the same again. It became, pay to play.

Skyrim came along, and my son was kind enough to teach me how to play. I have been hooked ever since.

I then began playing on the computer, and eventually spent my days learning how mods worked, and actually spent more time reading, and setting up my game, only for something to update, or something new, and improved would come along to try.

It has definitely grown over the years, and the community has been wonderful....well, most of the time.

I very seldom post anything, but today i felt i needed to.

I am not rich, but i have a few $'s here and would like to donate some to every mod that i have, just not to a company that gave us a broken game, and never fixed.

I would only be able to give like .50, as i have 50 to 75 mods that i have endorsed and used, and feel like, it should all go to the modders. At the same time, i feel like that would maybe be taken as an insult.

So, i don't donate money, instead, i use the money to buy a few kids this game, and use your mods, and enjoy the entertainment, and the peace of mind i get enjoying a game, that can turn into a whole new world with every character i make, and every kid i show how to play.

Thank You modders, and community for making so many people happy, and please remember to respect one another.

Kursan · April 28, 2015

In response to post #24764954. #24765129, #24765414, #24767504 are all replies on the same post.

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phellen, thanks and I totally agree with the points you raise. One of the reasons I decided against the pay model while it was still available. I did not want to get into more detail on the market place reasoning and why I think also it would not suit this community, but my main point was to deal with all of this in a more collaborative spirit and not all the hate and venom that was displayed by some on both sides of the argument.
I have no illusions that this is an ideal community, but its not too much to ask for some mature acceptance of viewpoints.

What I find more perplexing than the pay for mods debate is Bethesda's reasoning for considering it quote form their blog:
"We are always looking for new ways to expand modding. Our friends at Valve share many of the same beliefs in mods and created the Steam Workshop with us in 2012 for Skyrim, making it easier than ever to search and download mods. Along with Skyrim Nexus and other sites, our players have many great ways to get mods.

Despite all that, it’s still too small in our eyes. Only 8% of the Skyrim audience has ever used a mod. Less than 1% has ever made one."

If those figures are correct they are hardly surprising.
I am forever grateful to Bethesda for making it possible in the first place to mod their games, but if that is really at the heart of their philosophy should they not then base the game on PC and then adapt it to console rather than the other way around? In my local community most players I know played Skyrim on console and many have never even played an official DLC never mind a mod. It is really sad how many fans are totally ignorant of all the great content available out there.
I don't know if this will change with new generation consoles, but as long as the PC is the last platform a new game comes to the modding community will remain small. Edited April 28, 2015 by Kursan

InvictusCastar · April 28, 2015

In response to post #24766529.

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I think youre right ^^ And dont worry. Not many respond maybe but many read and feel the same

WarMaster09 · April 28, 2015

Ughh I feel my blood pressure rising...

I shouldnt have gone down to read the comments,

Mod Authors/future authors:

Sorry you all put up hopes for this system, and it went down very fast.

Just its coming and going has done much damage and ignited many different topics.

Having 200+ mods for Skyrim , making the game beautiful and adding countless things, i shudder to think if half of them went behind any paywall what it would do?

I certainly wont use much mods , except Kudos to those Authors who will/may keep a same free version for us lowlives.

The haters, and trolls,those requesting features mindlessly aside, <--- not worth it, please ignore them, dont let those fish ruin the entire pond. Being on the internet for as long as we have, i have a mental filter for these types now. Use filter more.

Modding was a week ago free, making money of it was illegal,

So by that logic all current Authors went in knowing no money? Just some appreciation, some recognition, some positive feedback. that was it all.

But now there was a slight chance of making money of something you have done, of which you had no intention of making money in the first place. Dont be that angry just coz the chance went away for now. Why not think of it this "getting something in return" chance never even happened?

We All know they stopped this for skyrim but they will iron out and deploy for Fallout 4 Whatever.

To Mod-USERS:

We dont really value our authors , coz all their work was for free, in return they got some happiness from a small percentage of users, so please be more appreciative of their work. Takes 30 seconds to click leave a nice comment or vote.

argh i dont know if i got what i was saying across.

DaVincix · April 28, 2015

In response to post #24767664. #24767914 is also a reply to the same post.

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Yep, and modern communication aka internet makes that (the human stupidy) only more visible.
The option of individuals hiding in anonymity and expressing all their unrational/emotional crap has but two sides - imagine all the angry people couldn't have a ventile like in the web (possibly still more violence would be present in the societies).

Back to topic:
Thank you, Dark0ne, for the quick info about Bethesda and Valve removing rather have removed the pay-wall-system from the Steam-Workshop.
Not that i personally am or was concerned (i wouldn't have used that anyway), but as highly public-active ex-modder (in another game-community forum), and kind of a member of the overall modding community, i'm very grateful for that outcome.
Bethesda (and even Valve) got some valid credits back in my mind. Edited April 28, 2015 by DaVincix

ShadowDragyn · April 28, 2015

In response to post #24768539.

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People are not necessarily angry because the opportunity came and left. Personally, I'm pissed because of the kinds of people the community turned out to be in all this.
Even if I had enough time to keep working on this stuff for free, I'd have to be out of my damn mind to help these people by sharing it. That's why all my old mods are gone now too.

phoenixmass · April 28, 2015

In response to post #24757069. #24757229, #24757314, #24757684, #24758614, #24758724, #24758949, #24759229, #24759924, #24764154 are all replies on the same post.

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phellen wrote:

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Laereal wrote: Thank you for posting this as I agree with everything you said.

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MacAban wrote: Excellent post. I too agree with all your points.

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MrGrymReaper wrote: @phellen - I also agree but not with paid mods as I can't really afford to always be donating or paying, for modifications as my personal situation won't allow it.

Even if could afford to pay I wouldn't buy mods especially from companies which give a massive percentage to the themselves and an insignificant percentage in comparison the mod's creator. Though I would donate and depending on my current financial situation may do it regularly though likely it would be as a one off.

I need to watch my finances as currently I'm out of work following an accident in the past.

Though I have been around on the nexus for a long time most likely first join back during Fallout 3 and/or Oblivion based nexus generation. Later I added the Fallout New Vegas game followed by Skyrim. I have done some mods on Morrowind though not so many also was the victim during the tough growing times (when the site would crash regularly).

I even became a Premium member back when the site's Lifetime Membership was around the cost of a new video game (£30.00-£40.00) circa 2006-2009.

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phellen wrote: I see what your saying, but at the same time those who use the argument. "I can't afford to buy (X), so (X) should never be sold for money" are simply wrong.

Fill that (X) in with anything else besides the word "mod", and you'll see what I mean.

As far as money is concerned as I said, when it comes to showing appreciation to modders on the nexus for their work there are many other ways to do this that don't involve donations per say. Commenting, endorsing, voting, sharing pictures, helping out by answering others questions, ect...

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MrGrymReaper wrote: @phellen - You try paying for something on a tight budget with a large combination of mods. Which get used together in order to find conflicts and test modifications.

Testing modifications becomes much harder if you had to pay for a modification in order to use it (this not only the mod being tested but also the other used as part of the test).

You may not know this but I help out across multiple communities giving comments and feedback. Suggestions where I can and are currently on a team of modders working on the new episode of Maids II: Deception.

Hopefully they haven't been too badly affected (if at all) by what has happened in recent days.

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phellen wrote: True, I think those are both legitimate concerns, and would be something that modders would have to think about and address long before ever choosing to sell or not sell their mods (if it's ever allowed again). Compatibility would have to be really clear for sure.

Keep in mind I'm not speaking to you personally, or pointing the finger in your direction in any way. I'm just addressing the majority of the people who were freaking out majorly at modders for wanting to take part in the "new" (now old) system. They had every right to do so, and still deserve users respect. Users have no right to make demands on what modders do with their own mods.

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pokenar wrote: Timing and Execution were my biggest problems, the former being something that valve explicitly admitted was a problem.

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MrGrymReaper wrote: @phellen - I tend to when testing modification go through the quests and see if they can be made to break (in a way which a player may do them).

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phellen wrote: That's good, another thing to add to the list. I think that kind of feed back is really useful for modders. I would say what you are doing to help is pretty much a necessity, and in a way makes it sort of a team effort or community effort, that helps a lot of modders perfect their creations.

Maybe the best solution is to help get the best mods/modders
Sponsership from a game or a few adds on a mod page
Subject to Nexus approval
The mod author gets paid for the number of veiws or downloads or a combination
Not selling out enabling some to go full time, more mods better mods
Start a petition contact someone like pc world
If you own a game like skyrim on xbox one of the only reasons to buy pc version
Apart from graphics is the Mods, now i only buy pc games
Plus idont want xbox seeing my junk have nothing to hide
But the next step is a camera in the crapper
The mods will be a huge part of gaming in the future.
Bethesda and Valve reconise this, maybe they should sponser some of the top mods
If they really want to support mod makers The benifit in future sales would be worth it.
I think there will be plenty of companies
That want to get in on this early, this has probably been said many times.
Paying for mods is not realistic anywhere to many unlimited supply
Like the dollar the bubble will burst no bailout next time.
Possilbly five essential mods could be pay for decided by all
i still want to see the the mod makers Rewarded for the passion and time and quality.
I have a lot mods like most and appreciate all of them even the ones that suck.
Maybe the ones that can, should teach more and the ones that cant
Should learn more eventually everyone makes a mod
By the way the guy who makes giant chickens could you please put it back up
I hav'nt tried it yet

Azulyn · April 28, 2015

In response to post #24748294. #24748909, #24748959, #24749014, #24749054, #24749074, #24749089, #24749114, #24749169, #24749269, #24749289, #24749409, #24749439, #24749529, #24749564, #24749574, #24749674, #24749709, #24749814, #24749884, #24749889, #24749954, #24750114, #24750204, #24750249, #24750254, #24750279, #24750544, #24750564, #24750709, #24750814, #24750904, #24751449, #24751489, #24751899, #24751974, #24752079, #24752334, #24752454, #24753799, #24754219, #24754259, #24754609, #24754739, #24754979, #24755419, #24755704, #24755774, #24755999, #24756039, #24756394, #24756489, #24756599, #24756669, #24756944, #24757404, #24757709, #24757794, #24757819, #24757959, #24758109, #24758244, #24758549, #24758604, #24758779, #24758789, #24759069, #24760799, #24760824, #24765454, #24765899, #24766564, #24766884, #24767039, #24767164 are all replies on the same post.

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mannygt wrote:

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user134 wrote: Or maybe those people missed/forgot to hit the button/don't think it matters.

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Stevensonzilla wrote: That's a fair point.

From my side, I can tell you that I have downloaded a lot of mods that I simply haven't gotten around to trying out yet. Gray Cowl, for instance, is sitting around on my drive waiting for my next playthrough. If that gives the impression that I'm unappreciative, it really is unintentional.

I do, however, have to admit that I'm guilty. There are mods that I have used and enjoyed and just never gotten around to endorsing or commenting on. I have no excuse other than laziness.

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Timarot wrote: While I entirely agree that there should be more endorcements - unique downloads does not traslate into "people who love mod". Its more like "amoumt of unique ip-pc combination to which mod was downloaded"

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mcguffin wrote: Exactly.

Mod users act actually, for a vast majority, like a *consumer*, but without paying the price. Some of them also are angry when updates take time, or when they have issues.

I have seen few people saying that they have 200 mods installed, and because of that they could not afford to pay them.
but when you look at their profile, you see very little amount of comments or endorsements.

Most of people only leech content without caring of anything.

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Seren4XX wrote: Those numbers alone are an accomplishment and ode to the modders who put out those mods. Endorsing is forgotten easily for a number of reasons that don't have anything to do with being grateful or not.

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Ottemis wrote: It's a fact there are parts of this and any modding community in it's users that have zero real concept of the amount of work that goes into modding and think rather loosely or little at all on the matter, even taking an entitled stance rather than an appreciative one.
While it's 'normal' to forget to endorse or comment on mods you've truly enjoyed, and easy to think modders do it for themselves and out of their own volition that does not negate that modders do thrive on positive feedback from the community and more appreciation and healthy views on what modding entails certainly wouldn't hurt the modding community as a whole.

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zzjay wrote: many dont even know what an endosement is..theyre not into the community,and just like to download mods for their game

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shinji72 wrote: That's a good point. And before the introductions of the pop ups on Nexus (pointing you to the unendorsed mods) the percentage were far far lower.

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Kioma wrote: Extremely good point, mannygt. Kudos.

I'll admit that I'm guilty of this. I have a tendency to download a mod, forget it's there, get surprised when I load the game and find that I did in fact install it, and then play the game for several hours solid and simply forget to go back to the mod page and endorse it. Not an excuse, just a fact, but one I'm intending to correct. As I type this I'm gearing up to endorse every single mod I currently run and I encourage anyone in my boat (ie. the forgetful boat) to do the same.

Don't forget to endorse the everloving s#*! out of the mods you love. People need encouragement. Someone can do stellar work and still get disheartened because even though fifty people posted 'nice mod, gj' on their page, only a fraction of those people bothered to endorse.

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mannygt wrote: Please, don't get me wrong, I don't want to force your mouse to point on "endorse" button. I'm explaining how the percentage works in the Nexus. As I said before, I appreciated the users who decided to "follow" me and I always given answers to their questions because this is the real spirit of community (IMHO). Modders and Users working together to improve and make better mods.

I know that the laziness percentage for saying "thank you" or clicking the endorsement button may exist, and also it exists the percentage of who didn't liked the mod, but I cannot believe that mostly of the mods in the Nexus it only have 5%-10% of users attention.

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mannygt wrote: @user134. This is from your profile:

Joined: 15 September 2013 Last active: 12:28, 28 Apr 2015

Posts: 8 Topics: 0 Files tagged: 0 File images: 0 Endorsements given: 0

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samo101 wrote: It's not really a case of being grateful as much as it is of participation. People who don't participate in this community probably don't endorse mods.

Furthermore, it makes no difference in the long run. If 10% of users endorse mods they like then you still end up with the most popular mods being endorsed the most, the numbers are just lower.

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PROMETHEUS_ts wrote: Well I agree on that , the actual system doesn't even discriminate between good and well made mods and just "popularity" ones .

Some crap mods do make up to hot file and stay there a whole week hoarding endorsements just because of popularity or because they made a laught on some . But Other well tought , planned, finely craftet that took months to do are left in the voidness of unpopularity .
some gems are really hidden deep into the vaults of Nexus and are not even known of .
Even the same search categorizes the mods mostly by endorsements wich increase the popularity of the popular ones , rather than have a better fair system of classification of mods according to the work done for making them .

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mljh11 wrote: Why is an endorsement important? I'm not trolling - I really want to know.

I only just bought Skyrim Legendary Edition last year, and only got into trying mods this year. Therefore I'm very new to the culture here at the Nexus.

Other mod sites don't even have an endorsement button; they may have a 10 point rating system or something. Is such a system better or worse than Nexus' endorsement system?

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bangunagung wrote: Well, even Gopher forgot to endorse sometimes.

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bangunagung wrote: @ mljh11

That's just a way of saying "thanks for the mod, I like it". The mod author doesn't get anything from it. It just helps spreading the word whether the mod is good or not and encourage more people to try it.

It's not an entirely different system from rating, just a little bit more general.

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ramccoid wrote: Don't forget the protest mod, 3,233 unique downloads to 1,438 endorsements which is the only mod ever to reach nearly 50% ratio.
People didn't feel lazy or forgetful about that one. It shows the hypocrisy clearly, make the effort when it suits.

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Sigurd44 wrote: I forgot to endorse a lot of mods in my first year here on Nexus. I was just to involved in learning how to install mods correctly at all, learning Skyrim folder and file structures etc. Over time I got used to do it. I guess in the meanwhile almost every mod I once used or still use has an endorsement.

That's just my experience, I still can't explain why so many mods with extremely high download rates have so less endorsements.

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mkess wrote: No, I think this action from valve this weekend was a wakeup call for many users. Let's wait and see.

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mljh11 wrote: @bangunagung:

Thanks for your reply.

So would I be right to say that you think the endorse button is basically a "thanks" button? If so, I would generally agree with you on this. Which brings me to my next question...

Do mod makers make mods because they want to be thanked?

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riverreveal wrote: I think a lot of people, Im including myself here, take the modding community for granted to an extent. Oblivion was the first game I started getting mods for, Skyrim was the first game where I spent a good proportion of my time playing around with the mods.

If there is already a community in place with 1000s of members, 1000s of endorsements, millions of downloads then some people think they arent needed. A lot of people have come out of the woodwork in the last few days (again myself included) and I can totally understand a mod author saying, why are you speaking up now about us not getting money now, but not even thanking us when you were grabbing our free mods. I get that.

I have never in my head taken a mod author for granted, but I do realise that my actions over the last few years has been exactly that. If one good thing does come out of all this then I hope a lot more people are going to recognise the same thing and be a bit more proactive towards endorsements and donations.

I really hope Beth and Valve find a way to get you guys rewarded that benefits the community as well. The system they used sucked, but there was a pro there as well.

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user134 wrote: @mannygt: Yeah, those are statistics on my profile. What is your point? =/

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mljh11 wrote: The thing is - mod makers (typically) make mods because
1) they themselves love the game, and
2) they love the idea of sharing cool stuff they make for the game with other people.

I say this as an ex-modder myself (for other games, not Skyrim). The sites I uploaded my mods to didn't have an endorse / thanks button at all - and guess what? I never got bothered thinking about whether people were thankful for my mods.

At all.

Seriously.

If you're a modder who DOES MODDING BECAUSE YOU LOVE THE GAME, just carry on. Who cares about a number that says how many people endorse or thank you for your mod? It's just that - a stupid number. Please don't get upset because of this number or the lack of it; there are waaaaay more worthwhile things in life that you could get upset over.

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jet4571 wrote: Heya Mannygt I think I have endorsed one of your mods or you one of mine.. both... Or just recognize your name. Anyway this one gets me....

"but the most of the users just download the mod without saying any f***ing word. "

A simple "Thanks for uploading" is worth a $5. A "Thanks." is worth $2.50. A "Thanks." with a paragraph describing what you liked is priceless. I just uploaded an Oblivion mod 2 days ago and not one comment and that depresses me. I feel as though the mod isn't quite bad enough to get hate and not good enough for a thanks. I want to know if you are happy with it just like any other modder. If a part of it doesn't get you then please tell me in a constructive way.

I am sure many other modder will agree to that.

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jaffa5 wrote: I don't agree that just because people ether choose not to or forget to endorse a mod that they have downloaded automaticly makes them ungreatful. There are a number of reasons why some one might not endorse a mod or even comment thank you.

Personally I have only given 66 endorsments on this site since i joined in 2011 but i am not ungreatful. In fact I am massively greatful to the people who spend countless hours creating mods for me to enjoy. The truth is i often forget to endorse mods unless they have really really impressed me. in those cases i will not only endorse i will vote for file of the month and possibley leave a comment.

I think it's nieve to just generalise that every one who downloads and dosn't endose or comment is inherantly ungreatful.

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Amyr wrote: Endorsement system should be gone anyway. It's completely useless.

What would you gain if Falskaar had 250K Endorsements instead of 60K? Nothing. It's just a number.

What we actually need is a review system. You can have 200 reviews and it seems like a really really small number compared to 60K Endorsement, but wouldn't it be better to have 98% approved rating with those reviews? Rather than having 200K mindless clicks because Nexus keeps forcing you to?

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jet4571 wrote: Ok how about rude? if ungrateful is too insulting that shouldn't be because that's kinda what you are saying. If you download so many mods in a download session that you cannot remember where they came from then you are lucky your game still works.

Also an endorsement is a thank you. If you enjoy a mod then hit the button. The endorsement does not do anything but tell the author thanks. There is no secret files of the month or anything. Endorsements are not in limited supply so you can endorse every mod you downloaded that you liked.

AN Endorsement is NOT a measurement in quality. Do not think of them as that because they are a simple thank you .

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Amelli wrote: I don't think it's fair to call the users ungrateful just because they haven't hit the endorse button. That's very petty imo.

I for one know I haven't endorsed nearly as many mods as I should have, why? Several reasons
1. The main one being I have a life that is very busy and doesn't 100% revolve around Skyrim.
2. When I do come back to Skyrim in my very limited free time, I'm a mod hoarder, and spend more time messing around in MO trying to settle on a mod list I'm happy to play with and testing all those mods out in game, whilst figuring out why my game CTDs, which mod did it or which mods don't pal up together nicely, then I actually spend time playing the game.
3. To endorse I have to have downloaded a mod. To endorse I have to have spent time testing that mod. As endorsing certifies I've tested and I am happy with that mod. That's it's something special. Some mods take longer to test then others.
4. My mind isn't what it used to be and I can easily forget after all those other points that I need to return to the nexus and endorse my mods without getting distracted by yet another uber awesome mod on the nexus front page. That advertising doing its job right after all right?
5. After a few months I find my way out of the mire and realise I haven't endorsed still. So when I see an update for a mod I love and realise I haven't endorsed, I kick myself and hit the endorse button.

Should I feel I'm ungrateful for not endorsing? NO. Should feel upset at MannyG's words? YES.

I'm not able to speak for all users. But I'm sure there are many like me who would feel very pissed off at being called ungrateful.

And yes I can understand that there may be some out there who just download and don't give a toss, but I can bet you that the majority of us do give a toss, we just have very busy lives, and we sometimes don't realise what the nagging thing we need to do at the back of our minds is trying to tell us....umm what is that thing I had to do?....Oh yes, frickin endorse. It's not that I'm ungrateful. It's just that when I endorse, it's in between the few moments of free time I have to actually relax and have some me time. What would I rather be doing with that time?

If a modder doesn't feel they are being shown enough respect or endorsements all they have to do is hide their mod. That's their choice that they are entitled to. But users aren't forced to say boo to anything, just like modders aren't forced to Mod.

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Sakorona wrote: Yes, how DARE YOU demand at least acknowledgement of your work! [/sarcasm]

Seriously. Go endorse. Donate, if you feel inclined to. It's a few second action and creates a sense of community.

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Angm4r wrote: I have to try a mod before i endorse it, i will come back then and endorse it if i think it is worth if i really like it i will even donate for it.

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Amelli wrote: @Sakorona
Well at least this week I have the time to catch up on nexus mods. I'm stuck at home cos my darling three yo gave me conjunctivitis, I have a full blown cold, and I'm most likely going to be made redundant in the next week, so my stress levels are a tad high right now. Then all this just when I was waiting for all the great new updated mods like Frostfall 3.0 to come out to cheer me up. Ah well.

I'd donate if I could, but looks like I won't be able to spare any change to do so.

@Dark0ne
Might be good to have some site tutorials (forgive me if there are already) on the features on nexus, where to find them and what they mean, and highlight that in the news every month to remind old and new users alike. As it seems a lot of users don't know how to use or where a lot of features of the nexus are.

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mannygt wrote: @Amelli: I don't think you're on the 90%-95% side of the users that simply grabs a mod and vanishes. Your profile is clear: you give endorsements for mods you liked. I know that you have some mods to endorse but doesn't makes you a "ungrateful". I'm not ungrateful as you said, because if I WAS ungrateful then I would started to sell the mods betraying all my followers. On the contrary, I'm grateful to them, instead. My Gray Cowl of Nocturnal is ready for v1.1, this thanks to who participated on reporting to me bugs and ideas. Same thing for my other mods. Again, I'm not forcing people to click the endorse button at any cost, I'm just talking about the percentage that seems similar on all the great mods.

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jad31te wrote: Mannygt,

I have been here just a short time.. you are one of the very best most helpful modders I have dealt with on the nexus, you have always been more then helpful anytime I have had a question, But I can not say this for all. I have asked genuine questions to others only to be snubbed, I have left over 297 endorsements and about 70 comments.. until this Issue I have never posted on the forum so I know all of my comments were feedback related.

Just last week I had downloaded a mod I was having issues with, the author of said mod was on the forum answering question, but he just snubbed me over, would not help me and I really was genuinely stuck.. I do read everything about a mod before I install. luckily for me I was able to figure it out alone, but my point is not everyone is like you.. not everyone is helpful and some are downright rude!

I also have another questions about endorsements, I downloaded a very cute and unique mod that was put up recently, the author had received many positive comments and 12 endorsements by the time I had seen the mod. I downloaded it and ran the course of getting it situated in my mod list.. start the game and searched over an hour trying to locate the boat, BUT i could find no boat, I spent another hour reorganizing my modlist trying to make it work because after all.. 12 other people had made it work.. it must have been on my end and I was afraid yet again to ask the author a stupid question.

Finally out of frustration, I did approach him or her.. and you know what? they had made a small mistake, being new and never loading a mod here before, they had accisently loaded the wrong file, I was very happy to have assisted him in getting it all right. and now I have my boat :) but my point is that it had 12 endorsements from people who had not even bothered to load the mod.

I just wonder with how this current system is implemented, how long it even could have took him to realize the error :s

anyways, thank you so much for always being helpful.. but not all are like you

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user134 wrote: @mannygt: "Again, I'm not forcing people to click the endorse button at any cost, I'm just talking about the percentage that seems similar on all the great mods."

People mindlessly hammer away at the "like" button on Facebook all day. Like all statistics, endorsements should be taken with a grain of salt.

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SiniVII wrote: Numbers, numbers, numbers... Where 5 to 10 percent is factual information, and the remaining is plain speculation. It's very easy to say "Well those who don't fall within these statistics obviously think X, Y, and Z", but you really don't have any evidence of that, it's just pure speculation and finger-pointing without any real basis for it.

It's ridiculous, just because someone falls within the endorsement statistic, doesn't mean the other side of it are automatically ungrateful mod-hogging bastards.

If anything you should use your download counter as an indicator for your mods popularity, rather than obsess over endorsement for your work, when comments and the download-counter is already enough of an indicator.

For a long time I didn't endorse mods simply because I have the attention-span of a goldfish, that does in no way mean I am an ungrateful bastard who doesn't appreciate the modding community.

If I do happen to revisit any of the mods I downloaded previously by chance, I will endorse nowadays.

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Amelli wrote: Manny, don't get me wrong I love you as a modder. You've made spectacular mods.

It's the way you worded your post...

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...but the Nexus seems to be a lair of ungrateful people.

That makes you sound like your sounding out the community as being wholly ungrateful. And that's what upsets me.

Perhaps rather then nitpick, we need to put our heads together and come up with some suggestions to Dark0ne to make nexus even easier to use and make some 'idiots guides' to everything nexus and have these very obvious on the main pages of nexus. That way the community is reminded of the great assets the nexus provides. The modders being one of those.

Only by working together can we make this community thrive again and heal these festering wounds.

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mannygt wrote: @SiniVII: 1 person every 10 or 20 endorsed SkyUI or Falskaar. What do you mean for "someone"?
@Amelli: Statistics are clear. I'm sorry if you're upset but, again, I have no doubt that you support modders.

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MacAban wrote: This raises two interesting points for me.

First, if endorsements are important for the modder, education needs to be done on that point. I don't know how to make it better than it's already is, honestly, since most mods have a reminder in the style "if you like it endorse it", but apparently this isn't enough to raise awareness. Maybe posting threads on the forums and sites where the community of players lurk, like Steam forums? A lot of players come to the Nexus only to download the mod, and speak about it somewhere else if they like it. As for posting in a mod thread, I always considered it was for bugs and feedback, not to thank the modder. I realize now it means that most modders whose work I've liked don't even know it except from that tiny endorsement and sometimes a vote for FOTM, but honestly I thought it was how it was supposed to work. I don't frequent the Nexus forums, maybe I should make an account there and post in the thread of every mod I like? OR should I start using the mod thread itself to give thanks?

Second, I looked at my profile by curiosity after reading your post, and I saw only 11 or 12 endorsements in there. What? I know, for a fact, with absolute certainty, that I have endorsed a lot of them through the NMM at one point or another. I know, for a fact, that most of the 150 mods I used with regularity had that little yellow star in NMM. My profile said I didn't endorse Frostfall, which is one of my favorite mods ever and I've used since I've started to play Skyrim: there's absolutely no way it's true, if I had endorsed only one mod in all my years it would have been this one. Yet I saw my endorsements for other mods, but not this one. Doesn't an endorsement in NMM translate in an endorsement here, or doesn't just it show on my profile? I don't care how my profile looks, honestly, but I'd like to think the mods did get the endorsement.

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mcguffin wrote: this is kind of priceless.
Yesterday we have people who didnt want to give money for mod.
Today we have people who dont even want to click an endorsement button to say yes.

Consumers at their greatest posture.

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SiniVII wrote: @mannygt

Are you saying those 10 and 20 who didn't endorse are simply mod-hoggers and ungrateful bastards? And you're relying on your own statistic to push this blanket-statement? I'm sorry but you've got nothing. Word of mouth, It's rather powerful. One of those 10 people might've spread the word about the mod which made the number increase to every 20 person instead of 10, and thanks to word of mouth they may have attracted another endorser which made your oh-so precious counter to rise ever so slightly.

Obsessing over the endorsement counter is the most asinine way I've seen to determine whether or not your mod is popular, because IF there is anything your statistics have shown us is that the endorsement counter is simply not an accurate measurement of people's enjoyment of a mod.

Download counts and comments is what you should use as your indicator of popularity, you check the statistic of how many times they've been downloaded vs the feedback you receive in the comments, that gives you a measurement of a mods popularity, NOT through a counter people tend to click as a courtesy as if you were tipping a waiter at a restaurant.

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mannygt wrote: I answered you in the other post.

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mcguffin wrote: @SiniVII: you are wrong. popularity is not the point.
People actually showing you they care is the point.

It's perfectly possible to have a mod with a very low popularity but a strong little community around it.
If nobody care, you do the stuff for yourself, then you let go.

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mannygt wrote:

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this is kind of priceless.
Yesterday we have people who didnt want to give money for mod.
Today we have people who dont even want to click an endorsement button to say yes.

Consumers at their greatest posture.

Priceless.

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SiniVII wrote: @mcguffin

You can't expect every single individual to shower you with praise, that's simply not how it is. People will download and move on all the time, sometimes they'll be forced to make an account but that's the extent they'll go to because at the end of the day they want to play their vidya-games.

Eventually modders will have a place where they can host their mods and put them behind a pay-wall where they can actually get fair rates compared to steamthesda hogging 75% of the revenue, no doubt about that, hopefully there'll be quality-checks in place as well by that time as well...

However, till then expecting to be showered with praise from every single downloader is unrealistic, and nothing short of delving into the deepest darkest corners of delusion.

Of course, if you wanted that to happen, NEXUS could always make commenting and endorsing MANDATORY for downloads. That'd make people more popular I'm sure, where you'd get half-assed annoyed comments about Nexus system, rather than people who shower you with praise because they actually want to, and think you honestly deserve it.

You don't want praise from everyone, and that will never happen anyway.

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mcguffin wrote: @SiniVII: I don't ask for mandatory at all.
But the 10% stat is quite bad, to say to least, and doesn't send a very good signal.

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Altamhyr wrote: I'd like to say a little thing. I'm french, i can read english easyly. I have Many friends, here on nexus, who are able to use it but ca&nacute;t understand you...

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donsolidad wrote: @mannygt

I was only made aware of your mods through "The Gray Cowl. . ." which I think is fantastic, in fact, exactly the sort of mod that keeps me coming back to Skyrim. To me, this whole debacle with Steam is a reminder for those of us who are mod users to be more generous with our praise and our donations.

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SiniVII wrote: @mcguffin

The only thing those 10 percents show is that the endorsement system is inadequate as a praise measurement, and is not something you should use as a base for your argument.

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sdupp wrote: @ mannygt Agree with your post, but i don't think it was the only reason for some modders to sell mods as a greedy modder.

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caffeinatedNetling wrote: Regarding the protest mod having lots of endorsements: Get people emotionally involved with the process of making the mod noticed, and of freaking course they're going to endorse.

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macintroll wrote: It's just show that 90% of users are just leechers ^^

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caffeinatedNetling wrote: I typically have "modding sessions" that literally last for days, going straight from vanilla to the setup I'll play through the following months (without even so much as updating anything, I lost too many saves already).
If I could endorse the mods I download in these sessions when I have them open, I would, but by the time the countdown before the endorsements are enabled reaches zero, I can't even remember what I have downloaded anymore.

EDIT: I went to my profile to actually look at what I have endorsed and it's pretty hilarious. 90% of my endorsements have been made from the download pop-up, on the same day during my last "modding rush".

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sunshinenbrick wrote: This might be very unpopular but could a ratio counter between downloads and endorsements have any help in this particular situation. Later on when a proper well thought out and unexploitative polite paying system is eventually introduced (because it more than likely will) it could be expanded to that as well as a form of quality control.

The way it works, well it gives people a kinda nudge if they are deemed to be abusing the system. A better thought out version of how Steam tried to battle the stealing mod refund situation.

Would not be surprised if this wasn't just a big data collection exercise.

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MacAban wrote: @ caffeinatedNetling

Account options > Download History, if you want to correct that. You can even endorse from there.

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skinnytecboy wrote: This comment started very nicely.. actually put a smile on my face. I thought to myself "Ah finally they're all playing nicely". Let me dream a little more please :)

P.s. I for one enjoy making mods and playing mods and my motives are purely personal. However, it's always nice to know that people like what you do. Its nice to feel approval even if it isn't asked for.

So spread some love and hit those endorsement buttons my fine furry friends :)

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myrrdin35 wrote: With everything that has happened, the very thing you bring up has been on my mind also but in a different way. I'm a mod user, I've tried so many times to make a mod but my brain just can't wrap around that CK. I love what mod authors have brought to my gaming and many times in surprising ways. The problem is I have limited ways to give feedback to mod authors. I can hit the "Endorse" button and/or make a
post on the mod page that usually gets buried very quickly. Neither of these options is ideal for mod authors and users.

I think the Nexus needs to take some time and make the site more user friendly. Right now we have the Top 100 (useless, same mods forever), the hot files (highlights some popular new mods, but they are gone too quickly), and then files of the month (which is buried on the side of the page and not prominent). I think a couple of things can be done so more mods get some exposure and helps us the mod
users interact with you guys the makers.

One, add a review area to the mod pages. And I mean real reviews not just your mod is great or it sucks. Talk about technical stuff, if a quest mod how long did it take, if a texture pack did it look good, and so on. Also make it so we can follow reviewers. Say someone is really good and I can trust their feedback, I would love a way to follow their reviews.

Two, a mod spotlight. It can be an old mod, new one, big or small. Just something that is different, works and could be a good addition to someones game. This could definately highlight some lesser known or older mods that people never new existed.

Three, an area where mod users could upload their mod lists with notes on what kind of playthrough they are for and how well the mods work together and maybe installation notes if needed. Say I wanted a survivalist playthrough or maybe a hardcore your gonna die one or a very well put together texture overhaul. I mean how many times have you seen people say recommend me some mods, but its never that simple. This would definately give more exposure to more mod makers. Also it would give people a base to work from.

Four, Make the files of the month more prominent. There usually is a mix of different mods that people are voting for and it deserves some better screen real
estate.

There are probably many more, these are just the ones I could think of right now. I don't know if any of this is doable or not. But I do know as a mod user, it is frustrating right now trying to give proper feedback. I will say mod makers and mod users should always try to show respect for each other. I told my children when they started using the internet. Remember, the written word doesn't show your face and emotion when you are talking to someone. If you are upset or angry or frustrated, go ahead and type what you want, but don't hit the send button. Walk away for 5 minutes, cool off, think. Then come back read what you wrote and if it doesn't sound right, delete it or rewrite your point in a much calmer way. Communication is not easy to do right, so taking a little time will benefit all in the end.

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stanleemojo wrote: Many of these DL's are from several countries and more than likely do not speak/read English. I've done this in the past with a Russian modding site, not able to understand a word of it, managing to obtain the mods :\

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NDDragor wrote: In my opinion its laziness or just not understanding what the endorsement button means. Many people think that it wont change anything if the endorse or leave a comment but I recently uploaded my first mod and for me each endorsment or feedback which my mod gets is a signal that people are liking my mod and that I should keep up my work. Plus all feedbacks (negative and positive) are helping me to work on my mod.

I wont say that I am always leaving a comment or endorsing a file but I really try to make the authors understand that their mods are good if I enjoyed them or point out bugs and issues if there were some. I have played 34 mods until now and endorsed 26 of them. And I have to agree with others about not endorsing downloaded mods because I haven't tried them. Right now I have 45 mods on my list which I have to play.

Well... to make it short. You wont overstrain yourself by clicking on the endorsement button or writing a small comment and the author will most likely appreciate your feedback.

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skinnytecboy wrote: @myrrdin35

Regarding help from the modding community, perhaps you're not looking in the right place. There are amazing forums here that are a wealth of knowledge and people willing to help unlock it's secrets. .. there's also Google ;)

I really like your review idea btw.

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Primalsplit wrote: I think mannygt has the right of it here. More people should endorse mods. I admit I wasn't paying much attention with my endorsements (mainly because of the 45 minutes limit). I download a mod, test/play it and then I either be done with testing it within 10 minutes or I just play it for 1-2 hours, sometimes for 3 hours and more. I just forgot endorsing it.

I hope this will be a good lesson to all of us. We as a community should look after each other more. Personally speaking, lesson learned. I advice everyone to be more sensitive towards this subject.

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MrGrymReaper wrote: @mannygt - Did you make any endorsements during the painful growth period of the Nexus by chance please?

Cause if you did or accidently clicked on the feature for the endorse/undorse during a hic-cup they may have been lost or undone accidentally. It happended to me several times in the past with my slow internet connection.

As a result I was wondering whether the admin has somewhere on the server which keeps a record of endorsements especially those which were endorsed and quickly suddenly un-endorsed.

The reason being I now there's a lot of mods to endorse and/or vote for some of which I now can't post a comment in (following the previous crisis we went through).

So if an admin could please go through the locked or hidden comment mods which I have download and endorsed to please a word of thanks. It would be much appreciated!

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Dirtysocks wrote: I'm not the poster child for feedback on mods myself, I endorse the mods I use and kudos the authors I truly believe made a fantastic mod, however I do believe personally that your no. of downloads is a much more impressive way to tally your mods success, endorsements are a bonus

In any game only a fraction are active in the forums and chats as such, this does not mean for a second that the remainder do not enjoy the game, they are just less vocal about their excitement

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Fowldragon wrote: how do people come to conclusions without citing the supporting evidence...

FalSkaar has over 1 million downloads according to the Author..People have commented and critiqued it and AV has made extensive revisions..but Ungrateful? You've ignored all the acclaim and the fact that Falskaar is overwhelmingly if not Universally considered ICONIC as a DLC size mod...

If I tell my kid that he needs to work on this or that, am I unloving, not proud? If His Eng teacher gives him a B- on an ESSAY should he be justified in assuming that EVERYONE hates him?

If you want to make conclusions about endorsements you might consider that POLLING people to get their opinions is a PROACTIVE method, whereas the system in place to ENDORSE mods is completely PASSIVE in its approach.

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zcul wrote: Hi MannyGT,

I fully second this and your previous post. I checked the endorsement rate for some other mods - the same 5 to 10 % maximum (?????).

After installing and running a mod, it takes a minute or 2 for returning to the modder's site and just say "thanks for your work" and maybe some thoughts on it, especially if one keeps it installed, because he/she likes it. All that is a small and humble gesture in return and in comparison with the time and work a modder invested to make a mod and share it with the community to enhance and improve the game for all and - for free.
And the best, doing so as a user does hurt in any way - I tried that myself.

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b6lph6gor6 wrote: I endorse every mod I like, meaning every mod that I don't uninstall immediately after testing it. If I had to estimate, I'd say I like (and endorse) about 80% of the mods I download.

Although I have to admit that I'm lazy as well. Since I can't endorse the mod immediately after trying it (I like my game to feel vanilla, so I mostly use simple, lightweight mods that don't require a long period of testing for me to determine if I like and keep using them) I often forget to endorse the files. If it weren't for the NMM, half of the mods I use would still wait for my endorsement.

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Gamwich wrote: Actually, 10% is considered a very high percentage on Nexus. That's something that I've learned over my time here.

If you can crack the 10% barrier, then you've really accomplished something. ;)

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meredithmiles wrote: I do creative works in another fan-based community, and the 10 percent response is a well-known ratio there as well. If you hit about 10% kudos/thanks/likes etc. of the 100% that downloaded your work, you are doing well. I've been watching the numbers for almost 15 years, and that is a solid, persistent statistic.

I've always thought it was odd, how consistent it was.

Personally, I use endorsements as an actual personal endorsement. I'm saying "I've checked this out and suggest it to others". So I try to be sure I've actually used it and it was reasonably solid. Sometimes I will give kudos as encouragement when an otherwise worthy mod I won't really use much gets panned or ignored, even if I won't use it for long myself.

One thing I want to point out to Nexus members, if I can borrow your post to do it:

There are quite a few amazingly kind and helpful people who haunt comment threads and do impromptu tech support for mods around the Nexus. Both modders and mod users owe them a debt, and I wonder about appropriate ways to express collective appreciation for them. Any ideas?

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MisterGibson wrote: If you make mods for endorsements or praise then you're in the wrong in the first place. Modding is first and foremost people improving their games for themselves and then sharing their creations out of good will. That's why users (must) accept incomplete, buggy, beta, unfinished, unsupported or abandoned mods. Put money into this and you get what ? Customers, who are protected by laws and will be much more vocal about bugs (and rightly so this time). I am so glad I couldn't monetize my Skyrim mods back when I uploaded some because they would just be a pain to support today with my full time job.

Your way of thinking is the exact opposite of the modding system as it is and as it should be because you mod while waiting for something in return. The community is not responsible nor did it force you to use your free time to mod or share your creation. Endorsements are fairly recent on nexus, mods existed long before and will exist long after endorsements disappear.

I fully understand where you come from as I've experienced it (for another game) but you're wrong in the way you approach the situation. Ask yourself why you mod, if your answer isn't "because I like it" then you've got your issue. Stop modding for others or fame, mod for yourself and you'll see things differently.

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Jack Wow wrote: Just like FavouredSoul just said:-
"Its hard enough getting people to click a button to endorse a mod, let alone get people to use a donate button to give me the 5c they would rather keep."
- Me? - 1700 endorsements so far. Best I start putting my money where my mouth is. With 3600 hours of playing Skyrim under the belt, I know how much I owe the Nexus and the modding community.

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greggorypeccary wrote: A lot of people seem to want to tell other people the reasons why they should mod and what the wrong reasons are. It must be nice to know everything.

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sunshinenbrick wrote: @greggorypeccary

I completely agree.

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Azulyn wrote: If you want to see entitled, work a customer service job.
as someone else said, modders owe the community nothing, and the people downloading said mods owe modders nothing. If you're sick of your hobby then stop uploading your work. Easy and simple as that. Want to get paid for your work? Go into game design or get involved with a gaming company.
Better yet, just wait until the new Elder Scrolls is released. I'm sure they're going to implement a paid mod system in future installments. This was just their messy test run.
I won't bother playing future Bethesda games in that case. Sorry if that makes me sound like a cheap, entitled asshole, but I can't afford to piss away all my money just to make the base game enjoyable and bug free. Games are expensive enough as is.
There's a reason I refuse to purchase skins and other micro-transactions for the games I play.

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arxerisdam wrote: what about we get a i dont like this mod button?

and see how popular a mod really is, that would be fair.

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greggorypeccary wrote: My prediction is the end of modding as we know it. The is just no incentive any more. I think more and more modders will find outlets for their creativity and move on. The people that keep saying " if you don't like it don't do it" will get their wish. Imagine your loadorders with only official dlc's. It won't be the greed of the modders that causes this, it's the greed and apathy of the community combines with outright usery of companies that really do already profit from mods that will cause the end.

lol melodramatic much?
people need to hush with this modding will end nonsense. Even if every single talented mod author left right now, there will always be fresh faces to fill their spot.

Steam and Bethesda remove paid modding from Skyrim Workshop

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