Steam and Bethesda remove paid modding from Skyrim Workshop

[Terramaris]

In response to post #24798804. #24799224, #24799404, #24799519, #24799644, #24799784, #24801389, #24801434, #24801494, #24801679, #24801989, #24802034 are all replies on the same post.

retakrew7 wrote:

UberSmaug wrote: "There are certainly other ways of supporting modder, through donations and other options. We are in favor of all of them. One doesn't replace another, and we want the choice to be the community's. Yet. in just one day, a popular mod developer made more on the Skyrim paid workshop than he made in all the years he asked for donations."

-Bethesda Game Studios

Donations don't work.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @Uber because of one anecdotal and unsubstantiated claim from a Bethesda puppet, you have come to the conclusion that donations don't work? How droll.

Up until recently there weren't donation buttons on mods at the Nexus. A lot of people weren't aware they could donate. Let's see how that plays out.

greggorypeccary wrote: The fact that the button has been there over a year and most people don't even know it should give you an indication of how important it is to the community.

UberSmaug wrote: by the time the system was pulled down, the maker of purity would have earned over $1000, in five days. That is not anecdotal and unsubstantiated. It was fact. I looked at the subs and did the math myself. Likely they saw modders were making too much money off their IP, and the riots gave them the excuse to pull out. I don't really want to believe that however. I found that the willingness to share what they created, and graciously allowing others to profit off their work is commendable.

Fowldragon wrote: Foster has posted her position on Donations and with a 1 sentence argument she convinced me Donations don't work. 100,000 downloads...1 donation.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If you want to make money doing this sort of thing--get a job at a game company.

Upset that you can't sell your latest greatest mod? If it's so high quality that it's worth money--peddle it to a game company.

Otherwise, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. The modding community has been doing just fine for over 15 years without a single person being paid a cent. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

freedom613 wrote: Donations do not work, but as it was shown, neither do paywalls.

The problem with both is that each one is biased to the opposite party. Donations are biased against the modder since most people do not use them, and paywalls are biased against the consumer for a list of reasons which I have explained too many times (check my post history if you truly are curious).

What we need is a third option. What about Patreon?

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Why do we need a "third option"? The modding scene has been doing just fine for over 15 years without a single person being paid a cent. I know because I was one of the first people to put out mods on Morrowind, and a few other games. My then GF was one of the biggest modders on the Sims. Modding is a labor of love--not a career choice. If you want to get paid, get a job at a game company.

freedom613 wrote: Because the Genie is out of the bottle and no matter how hard you try, it is never going back in the bottle. Modders saw they could make money, and that is a lure hard to give up especially with the way many boycotters acted. Patreon is the best of both worlds, you have a donation system but it rewards donators as well.

UberSmaug wrote: @Vesuvius1745 Despite the fact you are simply being rude and dismissive. You are not making a valid counterpoint.

"...we’re looking at some modders making more money than the studio members whose content is being edited."

-Bethesda Game Studios

I get to work from home, on my own time, set my own deadlines. Only work on the projects I chose. Wearing pants is optional. Why would you not want to be a freelance game artist if given the opportunity to make as much if not more than a studio developer.

beewyka819 wrote: Actually Vesuvius1746, you'll tend to find that modders are saying the same thing in how donations are rare and don't make them much money at all.

Donations don't work.

Uber, modding isn't profitable in the long run for modders.

1. Paywalling will lead to a decrease in the quality of mods. If I can get the same, if not more, amount of money making a sword retexture than you can making a 20+ hour companion mod, why would you make a companion mod?

If you are going to make a big mod, you need to look at the opportunity cost. If you spend three months making a companion that will net you $800 when you could spend that same time either working a job which is a guaranteed fix income or making ten swords that will net you $100 each, why make the companion? Out of the goodness of your heart? That isn't how business works.

2. Modding is a community effort. Modders do not usually make 100% of their mod. Arissa 2, formerly a 3pdlc, used a great deal of content from other modders: hair, outfit, etc. When chesko finally removed the stuff he didn't make, the quality of the mod dropped.

Wet and Cold lost their amazing cloak textures. The fishing mod got yanked because Fore owned the animation files. The solution one would think is to cut the other 3pdlcers in on the proceeds yes?

Splitting the 25% cut, especially after paying thousands to buy the commercial licence for the programs you need isn't feasible economically. Which is why a one person retexture will always make more money than a group collab.

3. It puts modders in competition. Modding as I said before is community driven. Once money gets involved, that breaks down. Texturers that once helped each other are now competing against their former friends for market share. Instead of building each other up, they are tearing each other down. This backfires on you and me since we get a lower quality product.

4. Making 3pdlc has a higher barrier to entry:
$100 for Valve's fee.
$1,470 for the commerical version of 3ds Max
That ends up costing you $1,570 just to make a simple sword.

5. Income tax.
=============
As cool as it would be for modders to support themselves doing what they love, it just isn't feasible for the vast majority (even if you factor in Sturgeon's Law). Edited April 29, 2015 by freedom613

[necroslord]

In response to post #24798859. #24798999, #24799109, #24799114, #24799789, #24800024, #24800839, #24802019 are all replies on the same post.

Nightasy wrote:

Axeface wrote: Well said Nightasy, and thankyou for your tutorials. Sad to see your mods go, but I agree with everything you said.
Like someone else here said. Youtubers can make money from everyones mods. Twitch streamers can. The nexus can. Valve and Beth can, yet the 'community' actively refuses modders that chance, and it's only a chance, because only quality would actually sell.
Self determination is important, and that has been refused.

In hindsight they should have actively curated the system, just like they do in other games. And allowed a donate button, instead of the 'pay-what-you-want-but-PAY' system.

UberSmaug wrote: Sums up everything I've been saying for the past few days. Well said.

greggorypeccary wrote: I don't see how any thinking person could fault you.

vimebox wrote: Playing music for a family event is DIFFERENT from playing concert! go join as bethesda employee if u want a "REAL CONCERT!" and play here if u want to entertain a POOR PATHETIC FAMILY! who can only gives u a constructive critics!

did u know that somehow your mod makes RICH people buy vanilla skyrim? and bethesda not giving u anything not even a simple thanks of endorsement from that uprising selling! instead we gave u endorsement as a portfolio for your good credibility. in conclusion bethesda SHOULD make u as their employee/DLC project instead of taking money from your FAMILY!

arxerisdam wrote: i think all modders who feel that way should actually go and download their stuff.

Someone else will take the place and life will go on.

greggorypeccary wrote: I think they will. So what's your point. In the end you can download free mods from wealthy people and people that think it is their hobby and very new modders who just want experience. They will be free though so I guess you win. Some will even be good.

CNR4806 wrote: Well, goodbye then?

What makes you think you're the first? What makes you think Skyrim is the first place I've seen modders with attitude like yours?

From what I see over the years (including games with a free/paid mod split like The Sims), every time someone rage-quits, the community on a whole remains unchanged, the status quo is maintained and nobody even remembers that modder after a few months at best.

One piece of advice: Don't get fooled by those who say "Awwww thank you for all these years of modding, I will miss you" when you announce your retirement. They'll happily move on before the end of the week and forget about you altogether.

Just a remark to Axeface...

I don't think it's right to compare streamers or the nexus' earnings to "paid mods" as they are somewhat different. Most of those earnings come from third parties and not the consumers themsleves (ads and such).

A viewer can watch 10,000 videos in youtube and generate some revenue to the poster without too much trouble. But a player can't afford 100 mods at $1 a pop without affecting him to a greater or lesser degree.

Not taking sides on the matter, as it's a very complicated matter I still ahven't wrapped my head around even when it's already dead. But think that saying:

"Youtubers can make money from everyones mods. Twitch streamers can. The nexus can. Valve and Beth can, yet the 'community' actively refuses modders that chance"

is not valid.

[iXenite]

 

In response to post #24801964. #24802149 is also a reply to the same post.

 

 

 

Axeface wrote:

freedom613 wrote: Well done story but it forgets to factor in:

-Licencing (Most free modeling software do not let you sell work made on it, you need to fork out a grand for the full version).

-Lack of quality assurance (someone on imgur reviewed all the paid mods, needless to say, most of their quality was lacking and there were bugs galore)

-Risk of modder who stops supporting his/her mod incase an update breaks it.

-Incompatibility between mods

 

I could go on, but I believe I made my point. The issue goes far beyond "I want to make money off my work" and "I do not want to pay a dime for a mod". Best not to use a strawman when making a point.

"Licensing" - irrelevant. It isn't your job, bethesdas or valves to police modders.

"Quality" - Agreed yet subjective, this is why they should have made it curated. But this was an experiment with that exact aim, to see what it's like if it isn't, imho. But we didnt even get to see what would happen, and were unfortunately inundated by troll mods in the 'review' section.

"Risk/Incompatibility" - As above, and irrelevant. It isn't up to you to tell people where to spend their money. There is risk in everything.

 

Yes the issue goes beyond, will have problems, and the implimentation had major issues. But to deny modders the chance... well.

 

 

Would have bought any DLC for any major game if they told you that it was not complete, probably has several bugs, it may break your save game, and at any time they may stop development? I would say probably not. Pay walls will destroy modding. But more focus on the OPTION to support your favourite modders through things like Patreon can help this situation a lot. Adding pay walls just commercializes something that has no business being commercialized.

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24791749. #24793384, #24802574 are all replies on the same post.

RemusAluthr wrote:

GoldenDragonRider wrote: To me, the fact that the community is so divided by this, sort of showed what a delicate system this truly is. It's as if the community was built as 2D graphite sheets rather than the 3D diamond lattice we thought. No one could have expected a turn out as messy as this...

CNR4806 wrote: Well, this paid-mod experiment is like the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil to some modders.

It gets pretty ridiculous when you realize that many who were willingly working for the community until that point had willingly submitted themselves to the OMGMONEYMONEYMONEY-frenzy and went AGAINST the community.

And then you would horrifyingly realize that these seemingly benevolent people simply didn't know about the possibility of monetization until Beth and Valve opened the floodgate. Worse yet, some of their creations have already grown to the point that they're so essential, these same people can effectively hold the entire community at ransom if they want to.


tl;dr - I agree completely, the damage is already done, those who have literally JUMPED at the chance of monetization aren't going to just come back. While I do foresee the community recovering from this, it may take a little while.

A paltry sum it is not if you multiply the number of mods you have in your load order by 1.99 or more. Plus the game, plus any DLC... Oh and what if ENB and SKSE jump in on the action too?

[beewyka819]

In response to post #24798804. #24799224, #24799404, #24799519, #24799644, #24799784, #24801389, #24801434, #24801494, #24801679, #24801989, #24802034, #24802614 are all replies on the same post.

retakrew7 wrote:

UberSmaug wrote: "There are certainly other ways of supporting modder, through donations and other options. We are in favor of all of them. One doesn't replace another, and we want the choice to be the community's. Yet. in just one day, a popular mod developer made more on the Skyrim paid workshop than he made in all the years he asked for donations."

-Bethesda Game Studios

Donations don't work.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @Uber because of one anecdotal and unsubstantiated claim from a Bethesda puppet, you have come to the conclusion that donations don't work? How droll.

Up until recently there weren't donation buttons on mods at the Nexus. A lot of people weren't aware they could donate. Let's see how that plays out.

greggorypeccary wrote: The fact that the button has been there over a year and most people don't even know it should give you an indication of how important it is to the community.

UberSmaug wrote: by the time the system was pulled down, the maker of purity would have earned over $1000, in five days. That is not anecdotal and unsubstantiated. It was fact. I looked at the subs and did the math myself. Likely they saw modders were making too much money off their IP, and the riots gave them the excuse to pull out. I don't really want to believe that however. I found that the willingness to share what they created, and graciously allowing others to profit off their work is commendable.

Fowldragon wrote: Foster has posted her position on Donations and with a 1 sentence argument she convinced me Donations don't work. 100,000 downloads...1 donation.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If you want to make money doing this sort of thing--get a job at a game company.

Upset that you can't sell your latest greatest mod? If it's so high quality that it's worth money--peddle it to a game company.

Otherwise, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. The modding community has been doing just fine for over 15 years without a single person being paid a cent. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

freedom613 wrote: Donations do not work, but as it was shown, neither do paywalls.

The problem with both is that each one is biased to the opposite party. Donations are biased against the modder since most people do not use them, and paywalls are biased against the consumer for a list of reasons which I have explained too many times (check my post history if you truly are curious).

What we need is a third option. What about Patreon?

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Why do we need a "third option"? The modding scene has been doing just fine for over 15 years without a single person being paid a cent. I know because I was one of the first people to put out mods on Morrowind, and a few other games. My then GF was one of the biggest modders on the Sims. Modding is a labor of love--not a career choice. If you want to get paid, get a job at a game company.

freedom613 wrote: Because the Genie is out of the bottle and no matter how hard you try, it is never going back in the bottle. Modders saw they could make money, and that is a lure hard to give up especially with the way many boycotters acted. Patreon is the best of both worlds, you have a donation system but it rewards donators as well.

UberSmaug wrote: @Vesuvius1745 Despite the fact you are simply being rude and dismissive. You are not making a valid counterpoint.

"...we’re looking at some modders making more money than the studio members whose content is being edited."

-Bethesda Game Studios

I get to work from home, on my own time, set my own deadlines. Only work on the projects I chose. Wearing pants is optional. Why would you not want to be a freelance game artist if given the opportunity to make as much if not more than a studio developer.

beewyka819 wrote: Actually Vesuvius1746, you'll tend to find that modders are saying the same thing in how donations are rare and don't make them much money at all.

Donations don't work.

freedom613 wrote: Uber, modding isn't profitable in the long run for modders.

1. Paywalling will lead to a decrease in the quality of mods. If I can get the same, if not more, amount of money making a sword retexture than you can making a 20+ hour companion mod, why would you make a companion mod?

If you are going to make a big mod, you need to look at the opportunity cost. If you spend three months making a companion that will net you $800 when you could spend that same time either working a job which is a guaranteed fix income or making ten swords that will net you $100 each, why make the companion? Out of the goodness of your heart? That isn't how business works.

2. Modding is a community effort. Modders do not usually make 100% of their mod. Arissa 2, formerly a 3pdlc, used a great deal of content from other modders: hair, outfit, etc. When chesko finally removed the stuff he didn't make, the quality of the mod dropped.

Wet and Cold lost their amazing cloak textures. The fishing mod got yanked because Fore owned the animation files. The solution one would think is to cut the other 3pdlcers in on the proceeds yes?

Splitting the 25% cut, especially after paying thousands to buy the commercial licence for the programs you need isn't feasible economically. Which is why a one person retexture will always make more money than a group collab.

3. It puts modders in competition. Modding as I said before is community driven. Once money gets involved, that breaks down. Texturers that once helped each other are now competing against their former friends for market share. Instead of building each other up, they are tearing each other down. This backfires on you and me since we get a lower quality product.

4. Making 3pdlc has a higher barrier to entry:
$100 for Valve's fee.
$1,470 for the commerical version of 3ds Max
That ends up costing you $1,570 just to make a simple sword.

5. Income tax.
=============
As cool as it would be for modders to support themselves doing what they love, it just isn't feasible for the vast majority (even if you factor in Sturgeon's Law).

Another third way to go is for modders on things like the nexus get a cut of the revenue off the ads that display on their mod pages, like how youtube works.

[Vesuvius1745]

In response to post #24799164. #24799594, #24801449, #24801539, #24801584, #24801689, #24801784, #24801834, #24801889, #24802154, #24802374, #24802439, #24802474, #24802544 are all replies on the same post.

Vesuvius1745 wrote:

greggorypeccary wrote: Spoken like someone with no files. I wonder how many mods are in your load order?

Vesuvius1745 wrote: How many mods are in yours? I am not going to explain any contributions I may or may not have made to the community because that is a red herring and irrelevant.

Bottom line:

If you want to make money doing this sort of thing--get a job at a game company.

Upset that you can't sell your latest greatest mod? If it's so high quality that it's worth money--peddle it to a game company.

Otherwise, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. The modding community has been doing just fine for over 15 years without a single person being paid a cent. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

greggorypeccary wrote: An as long as you get free mods you like it that way. I'm not surprised . But be aware I am not alone in my thoughts.

freedom613 wrote: Vesuvius, Greggory;

What would you think of Patreon? OpenWorldAddict made a post about it:

"I have an idea for modders.... why not use Patreon. I know a lot of modders from other communities that have patreon accounts that allow people that want to support them to pay want they want either per month or for each mod that is uploaded or updated.

I think the way patreon works would be great for the modders and the community. Not It allows people who really want to support their favorite content creators and have the money to due so, but it also ensures that the modders will make enough money for those high paying patrons and thus be able to provide their content for free to the rest of the community who can't afford to even pay donations.

That is my idea, and I think it is a great one."

This has worked with Youtubers and Minecrafters, I see no reason why it cannot work with Skyrim?

greggorypeccary wrote: I'm not familiar with it. But all options are open.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: And YOU get free mods also, don't you? You've probably downloaded hundreds of free mods on multiple games. You have used the fruits of OTHER PEOPLE's labor for your own enjoyment, or used them to create your own stuff, or "borrowed" resources, or have something or other that relies on something else.

You people are shortsighted, and your greed is sickening. Modders have been donating their work to this community for over a decade without any expectation--other than people pay-it-forward. People with actual marketable programming skills have donated COUNTLESS HOURS of their time to give this community FREE resources and utilities just to encourage them to put out more mods. I bet you have at least a half a dozen of those utilities and resources on your computer right now. Modding is and always has been a group effort, and this is what you people fail to understand. In your narcissism and arrogance you feel you are entitled to stand on the shoulders of others and profit off of that.

arxerisdam wrote: What you say is true, the elder scrolls community as always been an open source community sharing between everyone to create better stuff.

With all the crying and saddness from modders, as anyone has stoping feel sorry for himiself and think.

"Ok i want to make money out of this. Now, HOW im going to convince mod-users to pay for this?"

Because in the end is they who are going to buy the mods, if not who else?

because i doubt you sell as much as downloads you have in some of the most popular mods really.

And the really whats chesko did uploading a paid mod without asking permission from Fore's was really a big mistake and bring another more urgent problem the stealing of work from others. and thast a big problem because all you have in this kind of community is your reputation and i bet that hurt him at least a little.

So instead of whining and crying you need to start thnking how you will sell the idea to mod users (customers with money) to buy your mods because i suspect the next fallout or elder scrolls game will try this again.

They see mods like a source of future income, and it can be a very lucrative one.

As long the players are willing to buy mods.

freedom613 wrote: Patreon is a nutshell works like Kickstarter does but with donations instead of crowd funding. If I donate $1/mo the modder rewards me with screenshots of the upcoming versions. If I donate $10/mo the modder lets me beta test. If I donate $30/mo, the modder may put my name in the credits.

Basically, when you donate, you are rewarded with a Gift Basket. Think going to your mate's birthday in elementary school and you "donated" him a present and in return you got a goody bag with a piece of chocolate or what not.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @Freedom I understand your position, and I am totally cool with donations to mod authors (and have donated, and encourage others to do so).

Most of the mod authors in this community are great, and their work is appreciated. I am shocked by the behavior I have seen from a small but vocal percentage of mod authors. I am disgusted by the entitlement mentality they have, and the belief that they feel they should be allowed to profit off of other people's work, or incorporate free resources other people have donated for free into their work, and then profit off of that. I am dismayed by the temper tantrums I have seen from these people; some modders taking their marbles and running home (several of them removing all of their mods from the Nexus and saying, "If I can't get paid, f*#@ you!"

In another thread a mod author even admitted she has downloaded over a TB of free mods from the Nexus, and has never donated a cent to either Nexus, or another mod author. I think that pretty much sums up the problem I have with these people.

I do think one good thing will come from all of this: that this situation will cull the greedy pieces of excrement who are trying to make a money grab from the community of passionate and dedicated mod authors.

Marstonn wrote: I think isn't allowed to the modders get a patreon to make mods, and is forbid announce the patreon in the page mod.

beewyka819 wrote: The point is they've been being generous, so they deserve to be allowed to make money of of their work if they so decide to. You are being irrational, yes it has been functioning without money flow. But you seem to forget that what's more important than you being happy because YOU are a greedy human that can't give up at least 1 dollar for something is that these modders are human beings, not some money demons, the only reason they'd ask for money off of mods is if they need it, if they don't, they'll make it free, if they need it, they'll make it paid for only so they can get by in life. For example, I think the creator of say, Falskaar, deserves to earn a decent size of cash for it. You say no, because he's "generous" anyway, dude, that's cold, if he wants to sell it he should, and you should have zero say in the matter, because, last time I checked, you didn't spend a year of your life coding Falskaar, he did. So if he want's to earn some money to earn that year back, then he's damn well allowed to, but he doesn't need to because Bungie hired him because of the mod, but if that wasn't the case. He probably would've re-released it as paid, and no one would have the right to tell him otherwise, unless they're low-life pillocks.

sunshinenbrick wrote: I have been thinking about this and I feel, if and when this is rolled out again (cuz it probably will), how do we know games won't be bundled with three swords, two shields and one player home... the rest you have to buy.

I think if we have paid for mods they should really only be a very select few that make it to that prestige. Donations are great for any situation but many of the mods actually worth buying took a couple of years to appear. Mainly because of the bugged out state of the original game, let's not forget that some mods to a while to fix in between Bethesda official patches. This to and fro of responsibility could just destroy the whole idea of paid for mods in the end anyway...

greggorypeccary wrote: Careful you'll hurt yourself trying to be insulting without getting banned.

Sunshine, that is what I was saying in my original post. Game companies over the years have been releasing their games earlier and earlier, and in increasingly unfinished stages. It's to the point where people are now for all intents and purposes paying to Beta test their games for them (Skyrim vanilla, for example, is full of bugs and barely playable as-is. It needed at least 6 more months of development).

If game companies get a whiff of the prospect that their customers will finish their games for them, fix the bugs (unofficial skyrim patches anyone?), AND they can still make a profit off of that, we'll go even further down the rabbit hole than we already are.

[greggorypeccary]

In response to post #24798804. #24799224, #24799404, #24799519, #24799644, #24799784, #24801389, #24801434, #24801494, #24801679, #24801989, #24802034, #24802614, #24802704 are all replies on the same post.

retakrew7 wrote:

UberSmaug wrote: "There are certainly other ways of supporting modder, through donations and other options. We are in favor of all of them. One doesn't replace another, and we want the choice to be the community's. Yet. in just one day, a popular mod developer made more on the Skyrim paid workshop than he made in all the years he asked for donations."

-Bethesda Game Studios

Donations don't work.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @Uber because of one anecdotal and unsubstantiated claim from a Bethesda puppet, you have come to the conclusion that donations don't work? How droll.

Up until recently there weren't donation buttons on mods at the Nexus. A lot of people weren't aware they could donate. Let's see how that plays out.

greggorypeccary wrote: The fact that the button has been there over a year and most people don't even know it should give you an indication of how important it is to the community.

UberSmaug wrote: by the time the system was pulled down, the maker of purity would have earned over $1000, in five days. That is not anecdotal and unsubstantiated. It was fact. I looked at the subs and did the math myself. Likely they saw modders were making too much money off their IP, and the riots gave them the excuse to pull out. I don't really want to believe that however. I found that the willingness to share what they created, and graciously allowing others to profit off their work is commendable.

Fowldragon wrote: Foster has posted her position on Donations and with a 1 sentence argument she convinced me Donations don't work. 100,000 downloads...1 donation.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If you want to make money doing this sort of thing--get a job at a game company.

Upset that you can't sell your latest greatest mod? If it's so high quality that it's worth money--peddle it to a game company.

Otherwise, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. The modding community has been doing just fine for over 15 years without a single person being paid a cent. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

freedom613 wrote: Donations do not work, but as it was shown, neither do paywalls.

The problem with both is that each one is biased to the opposite party. Donations are biased against the modder since most people do not use them, and paywalls are biased against the consumer for a list of reasons which I have explained too many times (check my post history if you truly are curious).

What we need is a third option. What about Patreon?

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Why do we need a "third option"? The modding scene has been doing just fine for over 15 years without a single person being paid a cent. I know because I was one of the first people to put out mods on Morrowind, and a few other games. My then GF was one of the biggest modders on the Sims. Modding is a labor of love--not a career choice. If you want to get paid, get a job at a game company.

freedom613 wrote: Because the Genie is out of the bottle and no matter how hard you try, it is never going back in the bottle. Modders saw they could make money, and that is a lure hard to give up especially with the way many boycotters acted. Patreon is the best of both worlds, you have a donation system but it rewards donators as well.

UberSmaug wrote: @Vesuvius1745 Despite the fact you are simply being rude and dismissive. You are not making a valid counterpoint.

"...we’re looking at some modders making more money than the studio members whose content is being edited."

-Bethesda Game Studios

I get to work from home, on my own time, set my own deadlines. Only work on the projects I chose. Wearing pants is optional. Why would you not want to be a freelance game artist if given the opportunity to make as much if not more than a studio developer.

beewyka819 wrote: Actually Vesuvius1746, you'll tend to find that modders are saying the same thing in how donations are rare and don't make them much money at all.

Donations don't work.

freedom613 wrote: Uber, modding isn't profitable in the long run for modders.

1. Paywalling will lead to a decrease in the quality of mods. If I can get the same, if not more, amount of money making a sword retexture than you can making a 20+ hour companion mod, why would you make a companion mod?

If you are going to make a big mod, you need to look at the opportunity cost. If you spend three months making a companion that will net you $800 when you could spend that same time either working a job which is a guaranteed fix income or making ten swords that will net you $100 each, why make the companion? Out of the goodness of your heart? That isn't how business works.

2. Modding is a community effort. Modders do not usually make 100% of their mod. Arissa 2, formerly a 3pdlc, used a great deal of content from other modders: hair, outfit, etc. When chesko finally removed the stuff he didn't make, the quality of the mod dropped.

Wet and Cold lost their amazing cloak textures. The fishing mod got yanked because Fore owned the animation files. The solution one would think is to cut the other 3pdlcers in on the proceeds yes?

Splitting the 25% cut, especially after paying thousands to buy the commercial licence for the programs you need isn't feasible economically. Which is why a one person retexture will always make more money than a group collab.

3. It puts modders in competition. Modding as I said before is community driven. Once money gets involved, that breaks down. Texturers that once helped each other are now competing against their former friends for market share. Instead of building each other up, they are tearing each other down. This backfires on you and me since we get a lower quality product.

4. Making 3pdlc has a higher barrier to entry:
$100 for Valve's fee.
$1,470 for the commerical version of 3ds Max
That ends up costing you $1,570 just to make a simple sword.

5. Income tax.
=============
As cool as it would be for modders to support themselves doing what they love, it just isn't feasible for the vast majority (even if you factor in Sturgeon's Law).

beewyka819 wrote: Another third way to go is for modders on things like the nexus get a cut of the revenue off the ads that display on their mod pages, like how youtube works.

beewyka819 said.
Another third way to go is for modders on things like the nexus get a cut of the revenue off the ads that display on their mod pages, like how youtube works.

Ah ha!! now you're talkin'

[Vesuvius1745]

In response to post #24801759. #24802244, #24802379, #24802609 are all replies on the same post.

DaddyDirection wrote:

greggorypeccary wrote: Read my post, I used the nexus and it was very nice. It is a little blind to the fact that it does very well on the labors of un paid modders. It does not share the wealth with the ones that earn it for them. since you get free mods it seems fine to you. If you read my post I think you'll find that what I find is shameful really is that the nexus expects you to pay the modders. I think most of that onus is on them.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: The dirty secret here is Greggory gets free mods too. He's been enjoying the work of other people in the community for years. He's used the free utilities and resources provided to the community for free as well. But instead of paying-it-forward like all of the mod authors whose work he has enjoyed, he now wants to profit off of what others have allowed him to do.

greggorypeccary wrote: Its no dirty secret. I have been a contributing member of this community for some time. I'm proud of my contributions and any one can see them.

Gregory, I see exactly zero contributions from you. Are you one of those modders who threw a temper tantrum and hid all your mods?

[sunshinenbrick]

In response to post #24798804. #24799224, #24799404, #24799519, #24799644, #24799784, #24801389, #24801434, #24801494, #24801679, #24801989, #24802034, #24802614, #24802704, #24802794 are all replies on the same post.

retakrew7 wrote:

UberSmaug wrote: "There are certainly other ways of supporting modder, through donations and other options. We are in favor of all of them. One doesn't replace another, and we want the choice to be the community's. Yet. in just one day, a popular mod developer made more on the Skyrim paid workshop than he made in all the years he asked for donations."

-Bethesda Game Studios

Donations don't work.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: @Uber because of one anecdotal and unsubstantiated claim from a Bethesda puppet, you have come to the conclusion that donations don't work? How droll.

Up until recently there weren't donation buttons on mods at the Nexus. A lot of people weren't aware they could donate. Let's see how that plays out.

greggorypeccary wrote: The fact that the button has been there over a year and most people don't even know it should give you an indication of how important it is to the community.

UberSmaug wrote: by the time the system was pulled down, the maker of purity would have earned over $1000, in five days. That is not anecdotal and unsubstantiated. It was fact. I looked at the subs and did the math myself. Likely they saw modders were making too much money off their IP, and the riots gave them the excuse to pull out. I don't really want to believe that however. I found that the willingness to share what they created, and graciously allowing others to profit off their work is commendable.

Fowldragon wrote: Foster has posted her position on Donations and with a 1 sentence argument she convinced me Donations don't work. 100,000 downloads...1 donation.

Vesuvius1745 wrote: If you want to make money doing this sort of thing--get a job at a game company.

Upset that you can't sell your latest greatest mod? If it's so high quality that it's worth money--peddle it to a game company.

Otherwise, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. The modding community has been doing just fine for over 15 years without a single person being paid a cent. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

freedom613 wrote: Donations do not work, but as it was shown, neither do paywalls.

The problem with both is that each one is biased to the opposite party. Donations are biased against the modder since most people do not use them, and paywalls are biased against the consumer for a list of reasons which I have explained too many times (check my post history if you truly are curious).

What we need is a third option. What about Patreon?

Vesuvius1745 wrote: Why do we need a "third option"? The modding scene has been doing just fine for over 15 years without a single person being paid a cent. I know because I was one of the first people to put out mods on Morrowind, and a few other games. My then GF was one of the biggest modders on the Sims. Modding is a labor of love--not a career choice. If you want to get paid, get a job at a game company.

freedom613 wrote: Because the Genie is out of the bottle and no matter how hard you try, it is never going back in the bottle. Modders saw they could make money, and that is a lure hard to give up especially with the way many boycotters acted. Patreon is the best of both worlds, you have a donation system but it rewards donators as well.

UberSmaug wrote: @Vesuvius1745 Despite the fact you are simply being rude and dismissive. You are not making a valid counterpoint.

"...we’re looking at some modders making more money than the studio members whose content is being edited."

-Bethesda Game Studios

I get to work from home, on my own time, set my own deadlines. Only work on the projects I chose. Wearing pants is optional. Why would you not want to be a freelance game artist if given the opportunity to make as much if not more than a studio developer.

beewyka819 wrote: Actually Vesuvius1746, you'll tend to find that modders are saying the same thing in how donations are rare and don't make them much money at all.

Donations don't work.

freedom613 wrote: Uber, modding isn't profitable in the long run for modders.

1. Paywalling will lead to a decrease in the quality of mods. If I can get the same, if not more, amount of money making a sword retexture than you can making a 20+ hour companion mod, why would you make a companion mod?

If you are going to make a big mod, you need to look at the opportunity cost. If you spend three months making a companion that will net you $800 when you could spend that same time either working a job which is a guaranteed fix income or making ten swords that will net you $100 each, why make the companion? Out of the goodness of your heart? That isn't how business works.

2. Modding is a community effort. Modders do not usually make 100% of their mod. Arissa 2, formerly a 3pdlc, used a great deal of content from other modders: hair, outfit, etc. When chesko finally removed the stuff he didn't make, the quality of the mod dropped.

Wet and Cold lost their amazing cloak textures. The fishing mod got yanked because Fore owned the animation files. The solution one would think is to cut the other 3pdlcers in on the proceeds yes?

Splitting the 25% cut, especially after paying thousands to buy the commercial licence for the programs you need isn't feasible economically. Which is why a one person retexture will always make more money than a group collab.

3. It puts modders in competition. Modding as I said before is community driven. Once money gets involved, that breaks down. Texturers that once helped each other are now competing against their former friends for market share. Instead of building each other up, they are tearing each other down. This backfires on you and me since we get a lower quality product.

4. Making 3pdlc has a higher barrier to entry:
$100 for Valve's fee.
$1,470 for the commerical version of 3ds Max
That ends up costing you $1,570 just to make a simple sword.

5. Income tax.
=============
As cool as it would be for modders to support themselves doing what they love, it just isn't feasible for the vast majority (even if you factor in Sturgeon's Law).

beewyka819 wrote: Another third way to go is for modders on things like the nexus get a cut of the revenue off the ads that display on their mod pages, like how youtube works.

greggorypeccary wrote: beewyka819 said.
Another third way to go is for modders on things like the nexus get a cut of the revenue off the ads that display on their mod pages, like how youtube works.

Ah ha!! now you're talkin'

"...we’re looking at some modders making more money than the studio members whose content is being edited."

They actually said this???

You do realise with that statement they are probably saying that modders will be doing more WORK than the original developers. Do people not see this?

[Munster97]

In response to post #24800369.

Deathmint wrote:

Having seen the acrimonious and vindictive tones expressed throughout all sides of this thread an issue this post impresses me. I am not an artist myself (I say that a little tongue in cheek) but I did do a small to moderate amount of blacksmith work. I know exactly what you are describing for me I did both paid and unpaid work. The pieces I did unpaid often lead to further paid work and they gave me a chance to practice and improve my overall skill set. And frankly working on something that proved useful to someone was more of a reward them whether or not I was paid for it. In my experience the more I spread examples and word that my skill was available (I did have an advantage in very few competitors how many blacksmiths do you know of?) The more use was made of it.

And I will echo the previous poster:
now back to your regularly scheduled commentary. ;)