Drawing a line under recent events and moving on

[Harbringe]

  On 5/4/2015 at 9:17 PM, bullpcp said:

 

In response to post #24942159. #24942244, #24942979, #24943319, #24944114, #24944129, #24944354, #24945849, #24950174, #24952229 are all replies on the same post.

 

 

 

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bullpcp wrote: Trigger warning: This post is about perspective and relative importance. This may caused those with over-inflated senses of self importance to feel fear, anxiety, rage, or other negative emotions and lash out uncontrollably at those that have triggered them.

 

I love mods and i know it is easy to lose perspective being part of a modding community but the reality is... the modding community is simply not that important to the success of Bethesda's games or their bottom line.

 

According to Bethesda only about 8% of Skyrim players have ever used even a single mod and that less than 1% have ever created one. Given that the majority of those that have used mods would still have purchased and played Skyrim without mods this leaves well less than 4% of their sales in some way dependent on the modding community.

 

For the fraction of the 8% of mod users against paid for mods, and would never pay for mods if available, you aren't even potential customers and aren't terribly relevant to Bethesda's business decisions. Bethesda decisions about paid for mods also have to take into account the other 92%+ of Skyrim players that have never used a mod and to the other fraction of 8% that that are potential customers of paid for mods. Together they comprise well over 92% of their customers.

 

The VAST majority of Bethesda's customers are not part of the modding community. This community, both for and against paid for modding, is a very small minority of Skyrim players.

 

Some here have completely lost perspective on their relative importance to the success of Bethesda. Some have claimed, against all evidence, that Bethesda's success is somehow dependent upon mods and modding in general. This does not empirically seem to be the case.

 

Even if all who oppose paid for mods boycotted Bethesda they would see, at most, a few percent drop in sales of their game. A drop that may very well be more than made up for with increases in revenue from mods and those that may very well purchase their game due to the ease of use and easy availability of paid for mods.

  Quote

Vesuvius1745 wrote: And where is Bethesda getting the info that only 8% of people have ever used a mod? How would they know that? Even if they are counting console users with that equation (many of whom ended up buying Skyrim on the PC as well), I find that percentage hard to believe. Are they just going by Steam data? Just looking at the tens of millions of unique downloads on this site alone makes me think the same pencil pusher who came up with that figure is probably the same one who made the Hiroshima-style miscalculation with this pay-for rollout. They need to fire the individual(s) responsible for this abortion of creativity, and because they can't do math.

  Quote

bullpcp wrote: Vesuvius1745 Triggered! Just kidding.

 

Total Skyrim units sold 23,270,000

 

Skryim Sales By Platform

XBox 360 59 %

Playstation 3 27 %

PC 14 %

 

http://www.statisticbrain.com/skyrim-the-elder-scrolls-v-statistics/

 

"Only 8% of the Skyrim audience has ever used a mod. Less than 1% has ever made one."

http://www.bethblog.com/2015/04/27/why-were-trying-paid-skyrim-mods-on-steam/

 

8% of 23,270,000 would be 1,861,600 units using mods. The highest number of unique downloads is 7,384,353 for Skyrim HD - 2K Textures. I'm not sure how this was calculated but none of these numbers seem to contradict the Blog posts assertions.

 

I'm assuming they researched the topic. Your assertion seems to be that a multibillion dollar international company, in support of a multibillion dollar franchise, that specifically creates modding tools for the modding community, that has spent years planning on monetizing those mods, and that potentially had many millions of dollars at stake, doesn't know how many people use and create mods because some "pencil pusher" made a statistical error. I think I'll go with Bethesda's statistics.

  Quote

Vesuvius1745 wrote: "Your assertion seems to be that a multibillion dollar international company, in support of a multibillion dollar franchise, that specifically creates modding tools for the modding community, that has spent years planning on monetizing those mods, and that potentially had many millions of dollars at stake, doesn't know how many people use and create mods because some "pencil pusher" made a statistical error."

 

You've obviously never worked in the industry. I am an Electronic Arts vet (5 years, Redwood Shores California), and the number of stupid mistakes I saw from people who were paid a lot of money to know better was astounding. But yeah, feel free to believe anything they tell you without question. For me, and presumably others, we require a bit more evidence. And just from a cursory glance, I find their statistics suspect.

  Quote

bullpcp wrote: You don't have to convince me about how incompetent people can be. But since only 14% of all units sold are PC units, and almost all mods are created for PCs, this would necessarily indicate that a very small minority of their sales are dependent upon mods, modders, or modding community.

 

Even if 100% of the PC units sold used mods and 100% of those that used mods would not have purchased the unit without mods this would still only comprise 14% of their total sales.

 

Given that much less than 100% of PC units sold used mods, and far less than 100% of those that used mods would not have otherwise have purchased the product without mods, this would indicate that only a fraction of the 14% PC market are dependent upon the modding community.

 

These facts would necessarily indicate a possible range of 0%-14% of their sales are dependent on PC purchases and mod usage. My GUESS would be that a only a minority of their PC sales where dependent upon mod usage and that the reality of mod dependence would be at the bottom of the 0%-14% range.

 

This would indicate that the VAST majority of Skyrim users have never used a mod and that the vast majority of their sales are not dependent on modding. Given that they could have completely eliminated the PC market all together and Skyirm still would have been considered a huge commercial success. Please indicate how given the statistics available that Skyrims success would be dependent upon mods, modders, and the modding community. What combination of conditions, within the given statistical constraints, would indicate Skyrims success is dependent on modding?

 

I don't see how my interpretation of the data is dependent on Bethesda's accretions of modding statistics. I'm not writing this to diminish the community but to give it perspective. This is a tempest in a teacup. Again, I love mods but I have no illusions that Bethesda needs them to succeed.

  Quote

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I also wanted to add that I think you're a smart guy, and although I haven't agreed with your opinions in previous posts, I respect your viewpoint. Now those statistics very well may be correct, but in this instance I think you are just a little too eager to believe what they are telling you without question. I am no expert, but just going by the limited information I have access to I find that 8% figure suspect. That is why I'd be interested in knowing exactly how they came up with it. Since it's the premise for your whole point, I think it's an important detail.

  Quote

bullpcp wrote: I appreciate the complement. Everyone is as smart as they are, no more no less. Thank you for communicating with respect and without vitriol.

 

My premise is that only a minority of Skyrim's, and Bethesda's, sales are due to mods, modding, and the modding community and my conclusion would be that mods, modding, and the modding community are of only marginal importance to the success of Skyrim and Bethesda.

 

The evidence that this premise is based upon is fairly abundant. My post on platform sales data alone, with the assumption of statistically insignificant utilization of non pc platform modding, would indicate an upper limit on mod utilization of 14%. Their assertion of 8% does not seem unreasonable.

 

My GUESS would be that only 1%-2% or so of their total sales are dependent on modding. Under previous assumptions and constraints PC mod use may be assumed to be around 8%/14% or 57%+. Peace.

  Quote

bullpcp wrote: EA very nice, much respect.

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retnav98 wrote: So it doesn't phase you that the 1.8 million users of mods...each downloaded Skyrim HD 2k textures...roughly 4 times?

 

I would find that hard to believe if the number was 3.6 million(2x).

  Quote

Ghatto wrote: Man this is so off-base it's not funny. So what if somehow we knew that only "8% of buyers used mods" it means nothing and has absolutely nothing to do with the system for paying for mods.

 

Abosultely nothing.

 

There is no 'potential customers' in that 92% segment. If those in that group wanted to install mods AT ALL then they would not be in that 92%. There's no way that they haven't decided to mod simply because 'they want to pay money'. I mean that just sounds ridiculous.

 

In fact, I don't know why anybody wants that 92% to just take up modding for apparently extraneous reasons. I'm not saying that I want them to keep out of the community: I'm saying their introduction to modding shouldn't be some hyped up rapid shopping frenzy brought on by the likes of the Workshop/Bethesda/Valve. Other games would probably manage but the with likes of Skyrim these 'customers' will get themselves hurt - games will crash, saves will corrupt, buyers remorse will be heavy.

 

The very thing that's so sweet about the community of the Nexus here isn't just the lively modding scene that pumps out awesome free mods, it's the robust userbase that works together tirelessly to make sure these mods even function in fragile waif of an engine like Gamebryo. They get the best experiences when, without any money down, can try some mods, get some help/find verbose instructions on using them, and discuss getting it to work with others who a quite simply always in the same boat as them.

Ghatto

Bethesda the instigator of the system disagrees. It was one of the reasons they proposed the paid system to begin with.

 

 

Was it Bethesda that instigated this , that doesn't make sense to me , it would be Bethesda that would be getting the backlash in loss of direct sales of any future titles , while its Valve that has had to deal with the consequences of modding on their Steam platform . Would seem to be they would have a greater interest in seeing paid mods as they are the ones incurring the cost of having to manage them . Albeit as poorly as they do it still must be costing them something.

 

Also I have to call BS on something that people have been saying . This Skyrim PC sales account for only 14% of sales . That number was released 2 days after launch , the numbers were Xbox 360 59% , PS3 27% and PC 14% , thats exactly the same number they report for Skyrim sales almost 4 years after its release ,thats a statistical impossibility that they would remain exactly the same . Numbers always change over time . Plus its interesting to note that Valve will not publish digital PC sales of Skyrim on their Steam platform but will publish Xbox and Playstation . So dont be buying the 14% BS.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Harbringe

[bullpcp]

In response to post #24965229. #24965344 is also a reply to the same post.

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Harbringe wrote:

  On 5/4/2015 at 9:17 PM, bullpcp said:

 

In response to post #24942159. #24942244, #24942979, #24943319, #24944114, #24944129, #24944354, #24945849, #24950174, #24952229 are all replies on the same post.

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  Quote

bullpcp wrote: Trigger warning: This post is about perspective and relative importance. This may caused those with over-inflated senses of self importance to feel fear, anxiety, rage, or other negative emotions and lash out uncontrollably at those that have triggered them.

I love mods and i know it is easy to lose perspective being part of a modding community but the reality is... the modding community is simply not that important to the success of Bethesda's games or their bottom line.

According to Bethesda only about 8% of Skyrim players have ever used even a single mod and that less than 1% have ever created one. Given that the majority of those that have used mods would still have purchased and played Skyrim without mods this leaves well less than 4% of their sales in some way dependent on the modding community.

For the fraction of the 8% of mod users against paid for mods, and would never pay for mods if available, you aren't even potential customers and aren't terribly relevant to Bethesda's business decisions. Bethesda decisions about paid for mods also have to take into account the other 92%+ of Skyrim players that have never used a mod and to the other fraction of 8% that that are potential customers of paid for mods. Together they comprise well over 92% of their customers.

The VAST majority of Bethesda's customers are not part of the modding community. This community, both for and against paid for modding, is a very small minority of Skyrim players.

Some here have completely lost perspective on their relative importance to the success of Bethesda. Some have claimed, against all evidence, that Bethesda's success is somehow dependent upon mods and modding in general. This does not empirically seem to be the case.

Even if all who oppose paid for mods boycotted Bethesda they would see, at most, a few percent drop in sales of their game. A drop that may very well be more than made up for with increases in revenue from mods and those that may very well purchase their game due to the ease of use and easy availability of paid for mods.

  Quote

Vesuvius1745 wrote: And where is Bethesda getting the info that only 8% of people have ever used a mod? How would they know that? Even if they are counting console users with that equation (many of whom ended up buying Skyrim on the PC as well), I find that percentage hard to believe. Are they just going by Steam data? Just looking at the tens of millions of unique downloads on this site alone makes me think the same pencil pusher who came up with that figure is probably the same one who made the Hiroshima-style miscalculation with this pay-for rollout. They need to fire the individual(s) responsible for this abortion of creativity, and because they can't do math.

  Quote

bullpcp wrote: Vesuvius1745 Triggered! Just kidding.

Total Skyrim units sold 23,270,000

Skryim Sales By Platform
XBox 360 59 %
Playstation 3 27 %
PC 14 %

http://www.statisticbrain.com/skyrim-the-elder-scrolls-v-statistics/

"Only 8% of the Skyrim audience has ever used a mod. Less than 1% has ever made one."
http://www.bethblog.com/2015/04/27/why-were-trying-paid-skyrim-mods-on-steam/

8% of 23,270,000 would be 1,861,600 units using mods. The highest number of unique downloads is 7,384,353 for Skyrim HD - 2K Textures. I'm not sure how this was calculated but none of these numbers seem to contradict the Blog posts assertions.

I'm assuming they researched the topic. Your assertion seems to be that a multibillion dollar international company, in support of a multibillion dollar franchise, that specifically creates modding tools for the modding community, that has spent years planning on monetizing those mods, and that potentially had many millions of dollars at stake, doesn't know how many people use and create mods because some "pencil pusher" made a statistical error. I think I'll go with Bethesda's statistics.

  Quote

Vesuvius1745 wrote: "Your assertion seems to be that a multibillion dollar international company, in support of a multibillion dollar franchise, that specifically creates modding tools for the modding community, that has spent years planning on monetizing those mods, and that potentially had many millions of dollars at stake, doesn't know how many people use and create mods because some "pencil pusher" made a statistical error."

You've obviously never worked in the industry. I am an Electronic Arts vet (5 years, Redwood Shores California), and the number of stupid mistakes I saw from people who were paid a lot of money to know better was astounding. But yeah, feel free to believe anything they tell you without question. For me, and presumably others, we require a bit more evidence. And just from a cursory glance, I find their statistics suspect.

  Quote

bullpcp wrote: You don't have to convince me about how incompetent people can be. But since only 14% of all units sold are PC units, and almost all mods are created for PCs, this would necessarily indicate that a very small minority of their sales are dependent upon mods, modders, or modding community.

Even if 100% of the PC units sold used mods and 100% of those that used mods would not have purchased the unit without mods this would still only comprise 14% of their total sales.

Given that much less than 100% of PC units sold used mods, and far less than 100% of those that used mods would not have otherwise have purchased the product without mods, this would indicate that only a fraction of the 14% PC market are dependent upon the modding community.

These facts would necessarily indicate a possible range of 0%-14% of their sales are dependent on PC purchases and mod usage. My GUESS would be that a only a minority of their PC sales where dependent upon mod usage and that the reality of mod dependence would be at the bottom of the 0%-14% range.

This would indicate that the VAST majority of Skyrim users have never used a mod and that the vast majority of their sales are not dependent on modding. Given that they could have completely eliminated the PC market all together and Skyirm still would have been considered a huge commercial success. Please indicate how given the statistics available that Skyrims success would be dependent upon mods, modders, and the modding community. What combination of conditions, within the given statistical constraints, would indicate Skyrims success is dependent on modding?

I don't see how my interpretation of the data is dependent on Bethesda's accretions of modding statistics. I'm not writing this to diminish the community but to give it perspective. This is a tempest in a teacup. Again, I love mods but I have no illusions that Bethesda needs them to succeed.

  Quote

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I also wanted to add that I think you're a smart guy, and although I haven't agreed with your opinions in previous posts, I respect your viewpoint. Now those statistics very well may be correct, but in this instance I think you are just a little too eager to believe what they are telling you without question. I am no expert, but just going by the limited information I have access to I find that 8% figure suspect. That is why I'd be interested in knowing exactly how they came up with it. Since it's the premise for your whole point, I think it's an important detail.

  Quote

bullpcp wrote: I appreciate the complement. Everyone is as smart as they are, no more no less. Thank you for communicating with respect and without vitriol.

My premise is that only a minority of Skyrim's, and Bethesda's, sales are due to mods, modding, and the modding community and my conclusion would be that mods, modding, and the modding community are of only marginal importance to the success of Skyrim and Bethesda.

The evidence that this premise is based upon is fairly abundant. My post on platform sales data alone, with the assumption of statistically insignificant utilization of non pc platform modding, would indicate an upper limit on mod utilization of 14%. Their assertion of 8% does not seem unreasonable.

My GUESS would be that only 1%-2% or so of their total sales are dependent on modding. Under previous assumptions and constraints PC mod use may be assumed to be around 8%/14% or 57%+. Peace.

  Quote

bullpcp wrote: EA very nice, much respect.

  Quote

retnav98 wrote: So it doesn't phase you that the 1.8 million users of mods...each downloaded Skyrim HD 2k textures...roughly 4 times?

I would find that hard to believe if the number was 3.6 million(2x).

  Quote

Ghatto wrote: Man this is so off-base it's not funny. So what if somehow we knew that only "8% of buyers used mods" it means nothing and has absolutely nothing to do with the system for paying for mods.

Abosultely nothing.

There is no 'potential customers' in that 92% segment. If those in that group wanted to install mods AT ALL then they would not be in that 92%. There's no way that they haven't decided to mod simply because 'they want to pay money'. I mean that just sounds ridiculous.

In fact, I don't know why anybody wants that 92% to just take up modding for apparently extraneous reasons. I'm not saying that I want them to keep out of the community: I'm saying their introduction to modding shouldn't be some hyped up rapid shopping frenzy brought on by the likes of the Workshop/Bethesda/Valve. Other games would probably manage but the with likes of Skyrim these 'customers' will get themselves hurt - games will crash, saves will corrupt, buyers remorse will be heavy.

The very thing that's so sweet about the community of the Nexus here isn't just the lively modding scene that pumps out awesome free mods, it's the robust userbase that works together tirelessly to make sure these mods even function in fragile waif of an engine like Gamebryo. They get the best experiences when, without any money down, can try some mods, get some help/find verbose instructions on using them, and discuss getting it to work with others who a quite simply always in the same boat as them.

Ghatto
Bethesda the instigator of the system disagrees. It was one of the reasons they proposed the paid system to begin with.

 

 

Was it Bethesda that instigated this , that doesn't make sense to me , it would be Bethesda that would be getting the backlash in loss of direct sales of any future titles , while its Valve that has had to deal with the consequences of modding on their Steam platform . Would seem to be they would have a greater interest in seeing paid mods as they are the ones incurring the cost of having to manage them . Albeit as poorly as they do it still must be costing them something.

  Quote

bullpcp wrote: I'm a goober but how do you do that cool in response to post ### thing. I wanna play clean like that.

Despite all that, it’s still too small in our eyes. Only 8% of the Skyrim audience has ever used a mod. Less than 1% has ever made one.

"http://www.bethblog.com/2015/04/27/why-were-trying-paid-skyrim-mods-on-steam/"

It's obviously a bit of a PR piece but it is the closest we have to what Bethesda's reasoning was, outside of rampant speculation all over the internet. Edited May 4, 2015 by bullpcp

[bullpcp]

In response to post #24965229. #24965294 is also a reply to the same post.

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Harbringe wrote:

  On 5/4/2015 at 9:17 PM, bullpcp said:

 

In response to post #24942159. #24942244, #24942979, #24943319, #24944114, #24944129, #24944354, #24945849, #24950174, #24952229 are all replies on the same post.

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bullpcp wrote: Trigger warning: This post is about perspective and relative importance. This may caused those with over-inflated senses of self importance to feel fear, anxiety, rage, or other negative emotions and lash out uncontrollably at those that have triggered them.

I love mods and i know it is easy to lose perspective being part of a modding community but the reality is... the modding community is simply not that important to the success of Bethesda's games or their bottom line.

According to Bethesda only about 8% of Skyrim players have ever used even a single mod and that less than 1% have ever created one. Given that the majority of those that have used mods would still have purchased and played Skyrim without mods this leaves well less than 4% of their sales in some way dependent on the modding community.

For the fraction of the 8% of mod users against paid for mods, and would never pay for mods if available, you aren't even potential customers and aren't terribly relevant to Bethesda's business decisions. Bethesda decisions about paid for mods also have to take into account the other 92%+ of Skyrim players that have never used a mod and to the other fraction of 8% that that are potential customers of paid for mods. Together they comprise well over 92% of their customers.

The VAST majority of Bethesda's customers are not part of the modding community. This community, both for and against paid for modding, is a very small minority of Skyrim players.

Some here have completely lost perspective on their relative importance to the success of Bethesda. Some have claimed, against all evidence, that Bethesda's success is somehow dependent upon mods and modding in general. This does not empirically seem to be the case.

Even if all who oppose paid for mods boycotted Bethesda they would see, at most, a few percent drop in sales of their game. A drop that may very well be more than made up for with increases in revenue from mods and those that may very well purchase their game due to the ease of use and easy availability of paid for mods.

  Quote

Vesuvius1745 wrote: And where is Bethesda getting the info that only 8% of people have ever used a mod? How would they know that? Even if they are counting console users with that equation (many of whom ended up buying Skyrim on the PC as well), I find that percentage hard to believe. Are they just going by Steam data? Just looking at the tens of millions of unique downloads on this site alone makes me think the same pencil pusher who came up with that figure is probably the same one who made the Hiroshima-style miscalculation with this pay-for rollout. They need to fire the individual(s) responsible for this abortion of creativity, and because they can't do math.

  Quote

bullpcp wrote: Vesuvius1745 Triggered! Just kidding.

Total Skyrim units sold 23,270,000

Skryim Sales By Platform
XBox 360 59 %
Playstation 3 27 %
PC 14 %

http://www.statisticbrain.com/skyrim-the-elder-scrolls-v-statistics/

"Only 8% of the Skyrim audience has ever used a mod. Less than 1% has ever made one."
http://www.bethblog.com/2015/04/27/why-were-trying-paid-skyrim-mods-on-steam/

8% of 23,270,000 would be 1,861,600 units using mods. The highest number of unique downloads is 7,384,353 for Skyrim HD - 2K Textures. I'm not sure how this was calculated but none of these numbers seem to contradict the Blog posts assertions.

I'm assuming they researched the topic. Your assertion seems to be that a multibillion dollar international company, in support of a multibillion dollar franchise, that specifically creates modding tools for the modding community, that has spent years planning on monetizing those mods, and that potentially had many millions of dollars at stake, doesn't know how many people use and create mods because some "pencil pusher" made a statistical error. I think I'll go with Bethesda's statistics.

  Quote

Vesuvius1745 wrote: "Your assertion seems to be that a multibillion dollar international company, in support of a multibillion dollar franchise, that specifically creates modding tools for the modding community, that has spent years planning on monetizing those mods, and that potentially had many millions of dollars at stake, doesn't know how many people use and create mods because some "pencil pusher" made a statistical error."

You've obviously never worked in the industry. I am an Electronic Arts vet (5 years, Redwood Shores California), and the number of stupid mistakes I saw from people who were paid a lot of money to know better was astounding. But yeah, feel free to believe anything they tell you without question. For me, and presumably others, we require a bit more evidence. And just from a cursory glance, I find their statistics suspect.

  Quote

bullpcp wrote: You don't have to convince me about how incompetent people can be. But since only 14% of all units sold are PC units, and almost all mods are created for PCs, this would necessarily indicate that a very small minority of their sales are dependent upon mods, modders, or modding community.

Even if 100% of the PC units sold used mods and 100% of those that used mods would not have purchased the unit without mods this would still only comprise 14% of their total sales.

Given that much less than 100% of PC units sold used mods, and far less than 100% of those that used mods would not have otherwise have purchased the product without mods, this would indicate that only a fraction of the 14% PC market are dependent upon the modding community.

These facts would necessarily indicate a possible range of 0%-14% of their sales are dependent on PC purchases and mod usage. My GUESS would be that a only a minority of their PC sales where dependent upon mod usage and that the reality of mod dependence would be at the bottom of the 0%-14% range.

This would indicate that the VAST majority of Skyrim users have never used a mod and that the vast majority of their sales are not dependent on modding. Given that they could have completely eliminated the PC market all together and Skyirm still would have been considered a huge commercial success. Please indicate how given the statistics available that Skyrims success would be dependent upon mods, modders, and the modding community. What combination of conditions, within the given statistical constraints, would indicate Skyrims success is dependent on modding?

I don't see how my interpretation of the data is dependent on Bethesda's accretions of modding statistics. I'm not writing this to diminish the community but to give it perspective. This is a tempest in a teacup. Again, I love mods but I have no illusions that Bethesda needs them to succeed.

  Quote

Vesuvius1745 wrote: I also wanted to add that I think you're a smart guy, and although I haven't agreed with your opinions in previous posts, I respect your viewpoint. Now those statistics very well may be correct, but in this instance I think you are just a little too eager to believe what they are telling you without question. I am no expert, but just going by the limited information I have access to I find that 8% figure suspect. That is why I'd be interested in knowing exactly how they came up with it. Since it's the premise for your whole point, I think it's an important detail.

  Quote

bullpcp wrote: I appreciate the complement. Everyone is as smart as they are, no more no less. Thank you for communicating with respect and without vitriol.

My premise is that only a minority of Skyrim's, and Bethesda's, sales are due to mods, modding, and the modding community and my conclusion would be that mods, modding, and the modding community are of only marginal importance to the success of Skyrim and Bethesda.

The evidence that this premise is based upon is fairly abundant. My post on platform sales data alone, with the assumption of statistically insignificant utilization of non pc platform modding, would indicate an upper limit on mod utilization of 14%. Their assertion of 8% does not seem unreasonable.

My GUESS would be that only 1%-2% or so of their total sales are dependent on modding. Under previous assumptions and constraints PC mod use may be assumed to be around 8%/14% or 57%+. Peace.

  Quote

bullpcp wrote: EA very nice, much respect.

  Quote

retnav98 wrote: So it doesn't phase you that the 1.8 million users of mods...each downloaded Skyrim HD 2k textures...roughly 4 times?

I would find that hard to believe if the number was 3.6 million(2x).

  Quote

Ghatto wrote: Man this is so off-base it's not funny. So what if somehow we knew that only "8% of buyers used mods" it means nothing and has absolutely nothing to do with the system for paying for mods.

Abosultely nothing.

There is no 'potential customers' in that 92% segment. If those in that group wanted to install mods AT ALL then they would not be in that 92%. There's no way that they haven't decided to mod simply because 'they want to pay money'. I mean that just sounds ridiculous.

In fact, I don't know why anybody wants that 92% to just take up modding for apparently extraneous reasons. I'm not saying that I want them to keep out of the community: I'm saying their introduction to modding shouldn't be some hyped up rapid shopping frenzy brought on by the likes of the Workshop/Bethesda/Valve. Other games would probably manage but the with likes of Skyrim these 'customers' will get themselves hurt - games will crash, saves will corrupt, buyers remorse will be heavy.

The very thing that's so sweet about the community of the Nexus here isn't just the lively modding scene that pumps out awesome free mods, it's the robust userbase that works together tirelessly to make sure these mods even function in fragile waif of an engine like Gamebryo. They get the best experiences when, without any money down, can try some mods, get some help/find verbose instructions on using them, and discuss getting it to work with others who a quite simply always in the same boat as them.

Ghatto
Bethesda the instigator of the system disagrees. It was one of the reasons they proposed the paid system to begin with.

 

 

Was it Bethesda that instigated this , that doesn't make sense to me , it would be Bethesda that would be getting the backlash in loss of direct sales of any future titles , while its Valve that has had to deal with the consequences of modding on their Steam platform . Would seem to be they would have a greater interest in seeing paid mods as they are the ones incurring the cost of having to manage them . Albeit as poorly as they do it still must be costing them something.

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bullpcp wrote: "http://www.bethblog.com/2015/04/27/why-were-trying-paid-skyrim-mods-on-steam/"

It's obviously a bit of a PR piece but it is the closest we have to what Bethesda's reasoning was, outside of rampant speculation all over the internet.

I'm a goober but how do you do that cool in response to post ### thing. I wanna play clean like that.

[Brasscatcher]

In response to post #24930654. #24931014, #24933594, #24933759 are all replies on the same post.

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pleasenoname wrote: I listened to the entire 2 hour Total Biscuit interview. Saw it posted on
steam. Shared is with several people 3 or so days ago. I have read nearly
every major discussion that occured during the controversy. I am one of
the few people who can claim neutrality, because I was busy at the time.

I contacted the guy who made SkyUI a few weeks before what I will refer
to henceforth as the, "Modpocalypse 2015". I was hoping he could give me
some tips on inserting SVG graphics I made into the game map/menu. I
was going ahead on researching how to do it myself, his help would have
sped up the process considerably though.

So I went up to the mountain top to work on the problem myself in
isolation. At the same time I was putting together another computer. I
diligently learned about the menu system from fragmentary sources. Some
Bethesda programmer from 2011 in posts said that he could talk about a
limited set of things regarding it(meaning the menu system is DRM-ified).
The menus are in flash format and some are in Scaleform flash format,
which in my opinion is DRM encryption.

I found a decompiler needed to access the content of the flash files.
Unfortunately I had to change my Java setting to run through my browser
to the decompiler in an unsecure way. More on that later

The next problem was that I needed to recompile my art into the files.
So long story short I had to download the Unreal engine to use it to
interact with the scaleform DRM flashform. O, what is this though? I am
told I must have the flash developement tool from adobe to use the
command window that deals with scaleform in Unreal engine. It's "only"
$700, thats all. Then some rep says, "Student edition $100. At that point I
don't care how much student edition is because i am insulted at the web
of DRM and consumerism that is blocking my way from being creative.
That's the "Great Paywall" right there.

So I find a command line tool that requires me to make a batch file. Text
is written in the batch file that directs stuff to file location and there
are flags written in the batch file to configure how it compiles. I am not a
programmer so setting the flags is a matter of trial and error for me.

I sucessfully alter the menu with the command line tool, however the
flags are incorrect so the game crashes on menu open. Still more trial and
error to go. Unbeknownst to me during my isolation the Modpacalypse
had started. Since hearing about paid mods I fell into a deep sadness and
couldn't play Skyrim at all. Also Chinese hackers invaded my computer
through the Java connection used for the decomiler and even boot time
scan wouldn't remove the virus infestaion and I had to remove the hard
drive completely. This is the main reason I missed the Modpocalyse.

Eventually I came down from my mountain of isolation with my half
finished stone tablets as it were of modifications. And from a distance I
saw the modding community making a golden calf or perhaps a gear logo,
it was on the horizen, hard to see. Everyone was going crazy and doing
all manner of wild things and I asked my brother aa..., I mean Dark0ne
(Robin Scott), "I left you to watch over them, why have not you stopped
this?". And he said to me, "They gave me gold and forced me to do it".
At the ignobility of it I threw down the stone tablet of unfinished mods on
the ground and it broke into pieces.

I then try to see the paymods that are up during the end of the
Modpocalypse. I notice they all have cover art like some slick advertising
campaign, that makes me wonder how that could be organized on such
short notice. I see the conversation on Reddit and watch as Gabe dodges
questions about DRM and exclusivity(meaning he plans to enact it if
possible). Also I should mention that the money to the Nexus from the
workshop while in your mind, as well as your lawyers mind as being clear
legally, is not safe in a social context.

The intent of the money is because some people believe that if they give
you money that they have you or you owe them. Its a win-win for the
giver of the money in that if things go sour the community percieves that
you sold out. So its a lose-lose for you to take that money
I believe the distributor involved in this sees you as competition, because
it is trying to make it self the one shop stop for everything (just look at
the Community tab).

That is why they left for the weekend and walked
away. When it was said, "Didn't someone speak to you" that translates
into didn't you get your money, go away. You are British so you may not
see that. There are minor differences in communication style.

This is further demonstrated in the comments of a certain mod author that
took his pay mod down. Someone else's assets were in it and he was in a
non-disclosure agreement with the distributor. The advice he got from the
distributor was to go ahead post the mod up its fair game. So in effect
they encouraged stealing. Then after he did the right thing by requesting it
be taken down, they told him that they wouldn't remove it unless made to
by the law. It was theirs.

Both business insider and Forbes articles were written about how it was
such a bad idea.
Also I noticed LFD2 doesn't have pay mods. something to think about.
I believe it was purposeful to create division in the community.

And so after the stone tablet modifications lay on the ground as shards,
the golden calf was melted down. Everyone was made to drink the melted
down gold. Brum... something, protested and called me a "terrorist", while
he was sitting next to a guy named Toatl, despite the fact I was on the
mountaintop during the entire Modpocalypse. Then my brother Dark0ne
and that Brum guy said, you don't contribute enough and you were on the
mountaintop this whole time, you feel "entitled".

Dark0ne, you have said that it takes $500,000 to run the servers
apparently. Perhaps the community should off load this expensive cost
from you. There are many good programmers in the community that could
make a peer to peer client that could be used by the tens of thousand or
millions of Skyrim or other game players to host the mods in part on
their computers in decentralized parts. This would offload monetary
concerns from you.

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Vesuvius1745 wrote: You, sir, are brilliant (and a good writer).

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pleasenoname wrote: If the next Bethesda game has pay mods, I won't buy it.
One of Dark0ne's news posts says that we won't uninstall steam.

I will. When I played/modded Civ 4 there was 2 PR reps in the forum and 80% of the community there was against distributing Civ 5 only in steam. I got LFD2 to test if steam was DRM during that time. It indeed was. I never bought Civ 5. Someone gave it to me later though. I never play it

That is the only reason I had steam and I decided to give Skyrim one chance with it, however I dislike the ads that constantly pop-up whenever I start it.

This is all a part of the casino-fication of gaming that started with MMO's and has continued with unlock keys in game for random items (essentially gambling) and micro-transactions.

I posted on the steam forums for Shadowrun, which I have from gog.com, a DRM free game distributor.
Someone said they wouldn't buy Shadowrun without achievements. I told them that achievements were apart of the casino-fication of gaming in that corporations give out countless awards to the employees to boost the confidence of the employees so that they do more. It's like a cheap way of getting more out of them without paying more.

The entire thread was deleted, just because I brought up the casino-fication of gaming.
I'm not a gambler.

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pleasenoname wrote: This brings me to my next idea; Why don't we have a monetary prize for mod of the month or year? The entire community could contribute to the prize and the winner that month or year gets it.

Another idea is custom mods made under the patronage system for specific people.

O, wait that's against Bethesda's terms of service and the Nexus's policies as well.

No wonder some people were mad, Bethesda and company were violating their own EULA.

This was a gorgeous thing to have read. I must sprinkle some kudos on it.

[retnav98]

In response to post #24941974. #24942164, #24950944, #24954954, #24957374, #24957899, #24961449 are all replies on the same post.

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sunshinenbrick wrote:

  On 5/4/2015 at 2:23 AM, aegiltheugly said:

 

In response to post #24873139. #24874159, #24874314, #24874474, #24874519, #24874634, #24874639, #24874729, #24874774, #24874924, #24874984, #24875019, #24875044, #24875074, #24875124, #24875219, #24875289, #24875334, #24875454, #24875484, #24875669, #24876774, #24876829, #24877709, #24877889, #24877969, #24878254, #24878299, #24878569, #24878604, #24878759, #24879069, #24879579, #24879589, #24882059, #24884249, #24885029, #24885084, #24885349, #24885354, #24885399, #24885969, #24885999, #24887819, #24887979, #24888049, #24888949, #24889684, #24891174, #24938644 are all replies on the same post.

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thefinn wrote: I doubt they will drop this.

They will do more research than smoking some doobies in the coffee lounge at valve and saying "You know what would be cool ?" then we'll see something similar coming up again in the future.

There's way too much money involved for this to go away.

Personally, if they'd just add a "donate" button and not try to "sell mods" that might go down better.

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Vesuvius1745 wrote: With the next TES game, I could see them charging for the Creation Kit, and then setting it so you have to "share" your mods on a specific website they control, and then charging people a flat-access rate to the website.

Oh, and I can see them releasing the next TES game even more incomplete than Skyrim. Release a barebones game, make money off it, then let the modders finish your game, and make money off of that too. I bet I've just given some pencil pusher at Bethesda a 3-inch erection.

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wulfharth wrote: That's called an alpha release, and that happens everyday.

Bethesda has always tried hard to keep everyone happy (except with the exclusive DLC period releases). They just wanted to give people who make mods a chance to do it for a living. Shame on them for creating jobs and stimulating the mod community. They should all kill themselves. Right? Should I make a sign protest mod about them offering opportunity?

How do I block this guy? The option isn't at the bottom of his posts.

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wulfharth wrote: Ha! I found out where to do it, but I can't block you Vesuvius1745 because you've never contributed a mod, so you aren't listed as an author.

So why again do you feel you have the right to have an opinion on what actual mod contributor's are allowed to do with their mods? You aren't even one of us.

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Vesuvius1745 wrote: Oh, my mistake. I didn't realize the corporation known as Bethesda was being altruistic, and just wanted to stimulate the economy while at the same time giving amateur mod authors their Big Break. You're not only a glass-is-half-full kind of guy, you're a glass-is-half-full when it's actually empty kind of guy.

Instead of trying to make a buck off of mod authors, they should concentrate on making sure the next TES release is stable and complete. Yes, game companies are releasing their games earlier and earlier, and frankly, many gamers are sick of paying to Beta test unfinished products.

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Vesuvius1745 wrote: Good question, wulth. As someone who paid for Skyrim, I have the same right as the 133,000+ other people who signed the petition given to Bethesda telling them what we thought of this pay-for system.

I suspect the pencil pusher who came up with this idea is probably shaking in his boots. Wondering if he will have a job next month. Maybe he's even trolling these forums to test the waters, and not liking what he is seeing.

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thefinn wrote: Well I am a pretty harsh critic of games, I think Skyrim is one of the best I've played in years.

There might've been some bugs at launch, but few are the games you'll find without them and frankly with the size of Skyrim they are to be expected.

I don't see how it was "incomplete".

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wulfharth wrote: @Vesuvius-Instead of telling super successful multi-million dollar corporations with giant and loyal fan bases how to run their businesses, you should go try and make a dungeon or create and add a custom 3D model. I'm sure you'll change your tune very quickly.

You have no frame of reference for what it means or takes to be a mod author. Stop telling everyone what to do or what they should do. You aren't qualified.

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thefinn wrote: The difference being that the question for you is "Can I still get free stuff?" while the question for modders is "Is this a system I find reasonable to work with?"

The only saving grace to me was the thought that perhaps I should start putting together my feminine walk mod again to be paid for, or to be the free alternative to the other mod of its' kind. It actually made me think this (for the very small mods I have done) it was in fact my first thought.

So it can indeed instill the impetus in modders to mod.

However, the drawbacks of the current idea are awful.

It leaves the door open for game companies to make mods "steam only" in the future for benefits to the bottom line for instance.

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wulfharth wrote: The official paid DLC is Steam only. Why not the smaller not official but sanctioned DLC? We always have the Nexus if modders want to choose to throw up an donate button to not get pressed and give free work to the sweet and loving community.

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thefinn wrote: You're missing the point.

They can make the game so that when it runs it only allows mods that steam downloaded.

And they would be...
1) In their rights to do so.
2) getting more profits by doing so and they are corporations you know?

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Reaper0021 wrote: thefinn is right in that regard. IF THEY WANTED to be tyrannical about it that is.

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thefinn wrote: And when have you known corporations not to be ?

DRM itself had huge backlash at the time... but here it is still.

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Reaper0021 wrote: I agree with you thefinn. I'll tell you one that isn't and I defy you to say otherwise: CDProjekt Red. But in all aspects of this you're 100% right.

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Vesuvius1745 wrote: Wulf, your ad hominem aside, I'm not going to post my resume because it's irrelevant. Every person who bought Skyrim (they are called customers) have an absolute right to tell Bethesda what they think of their business practices. It doesn't matter if not a single one of those 133,000 people who signed the petition never wrote a mod, or has not done something YOU think "qualifies" them to giver their opinion. They still get to give it.

Of course Bethesda is under no obligation to listen to their customers. In this case they did. They probably also realized what a Hiroshima-type disaster this was, and if they were smart, fired the individual(s) responsible for this abortion of creativity.

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wulfharth wrote: If Bethesda wanted to be tyrants, they probably wouldn't have out of pocketed to provide and update the creation kit. And that's just for the PC gamers mind you. That is a special gift just to us that is more valuable than any 10 mods on here. You should feel loved and have more faith in them.

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wulfharth wrote: Vesuvius-You are Bethesda's customer. Not mine. I don't want your made up resume. All I know is that you haven't posted a single mod. You aren't a modder. Why are you telling us what we can do with our work?

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Reaper0021 wrote: It's not about lack of love or faith. It's about common business practices. A business remains a business as long as it can "TURN A PROFIT" and when it can't no longer (ATARI, Commodore, SEGA, etc.) then it stops becoming a business and becomes a share holders nightmare. All of this is just theory talk...but in the back of my mind I remain cautious about what the future holds.

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thefinn wrote: Totally agree, if I were going to have love or faith (without going to church) it'd be in the Nexus, not some new system Valve has talked Bethesda into.

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Vesuvius1745 wrote: I, nor anybody else, is telling mod authors what they can or cannot do with their "work". As Bethesda's customers, we explained to them we did not want a pay-for paradigm for mods. We gave our opinion, which as customers we have every right to give. They didn't have to listen to their customers, but they did. Since Bethesda owns the Intellectual property rights to Skyrim, and mod authors sign their EULA accepting their contract, it is Bethesda who gets to tell mod authors what they can or cannot do with their derivative creations. If a mod author is upset by that, then they should take it up with Bethesda. Or mod for a game that allows paid-for mods. Whining about it here, or getting upset with the people who bought Skyrim and gave their opinion, is not going to be fruitful.

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Reaper0021 wrote: And to continue on this point by Vesuvius1745....when I give my $$$$ for anything in this world be it new tires, PC parts, cable T.V./internet, books, food, games, music, etc. I HAVE the right as a paying customer to offer my critique or displeasure or ANYTHING with what I paid for if it doesn't meet my expectations as a customer. I don't have to be a tire manufacturer to offer my opinion that I like Firestone better than the other brands. You make no sense man in your argument. You act as if we are indebted to Bethesda and I can assure you it's the other way around. Kudos given to Vesuvius1745.

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crashpilot wrote: @Wulfharth,

Since there is not that much of your work you have to worry about, I would say let us our opinion and we let you yours.

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Pauliwhop wrote: You don't have to be a doctor to sue for Malpractice. Try again.

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treota wrote: "All I know is that you haven't posted a single mod, so you are not a modder" - This is basically the same as telling a carpenter they aren't valid because they have never carved mahogany, who is to say that he has never contributed anything to any modding scene for any game ever created or even created content that he didn't feel like uploading.

More close to home telling a critic that their opinion is worthless because they have never done what they critique (which is pretty common).

I'm 99% sure that there are plenty of food critics for example that have never been professional chefs.

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thefinn wrote: The fact that your chair is made of wood, doesn't make you a carpenter.

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sunshinenbrick wrote: "An expert is one who knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing."

Nicholas Butler

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treota wrote: The carpenter idea was based on the person having modded something at some point in their life which is probably (not always of course) the case if said person has a keen interest in modding.

Being a creator does not make your opinion more or less valid than your consumer. :smile:

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oldnotweak wrote: we need a block function so every mod author can block Vesuvius and people like him

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Vesuvius1745 wrote: @Oldnottweak It would be easier to just take all your mods off the Nexus, otherwise you will have to block about aprox. 133,000+ people (the number of people who signed that petition given to Bethesda).

And since we are blocking people who think differently than us, then maybe the "Forever Free" modders will block YOU from all of their mods, and the programmers of ENB, SKSE, Wyre Bash, and every other utility you've benefited from can block your IP so you can no longer download their stuff.

It can be a giant block festival. Wouldn't that be fun?

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Ghatto wrote: Oh yeah that wouldn't go horribly wrong now would it?

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thefinn wrote: Being a creator doesn't make my opinion more valid than my consumer regarding the mod sure.

However, being the creator makes my opinion more valid than my consumer regarding the system by which I make (or not) money off my creation.

Otherwise we'd be looking at a society where we had no money at all.
Noone would ever want to pay for anything and that'd be it.

So obviously the people at say Mattel decide that they are gonna charge money for their s***.

Your opinion on that matter ... doesn't matter. Where there's money to be made - corporations go.

At this point paid modding will be coming in. There's little doubt of that.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2015-05-01-sooner-or-later-paid-for-mods-are-coming

The only question remains "how?" and "when?"

The system itself is important, and if people want to enter a discussion saying "there shouldn't be a system" they are just gonna be ignored by I'd have to say - the large majority of modders and likely valve too. Expect it.

From Gabe's comments he's aware of the fact they screwed up by using Skyrim as the entry point for this change in the platform on steam. This probably means there will be years before we see a Bethesda game take on paid modding. (Fallout IV or TES VI most likely).

The issue remains will it start to encroach on the nexus, will it stifle modding ?!

Will the word "modding" merely change meaning - like so many other things do over time (and usually not for the better).

For instance what happens if the Unofficial Skyrim Patch goes paid ?

HEAPS of other modders have to change their mods (Through TESVEdit) to encompass changes in USP each time Arthmoor updates it. Otherwise their mods overwrite his changes.

Do they have to pay for USP ? That seems like a fairly central issue too - dependencies.

There are still a lot of question for Bethesda imo.
I'm not sure if I'm for or against the whole idea.

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Ghatto wrote: I disagree. I don't see why my opinion shouldn't retain value simply because it criticises the system as a whole and makes clear my desire to go without it. I understand how it positions myself in the argument as 'either/or' rather than compromise but that's that. Yes it's a see-saw that goes both ways; government policy has been that decisive for generations and we could all benefit on compromise there, but unfortunately that still doesn't work because it then creates a new 'either/or' which is instead a 'enjoy compromise/suffer compromise'.

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Tyerial12 wrote: problem is we know its comming but mod authors better be aware pirates will come as well.

Someone will buy your mod then release it on free sites anonomsly and bam free mod

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WightMage wrote: Have we really come to this?

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treota wrote: @thefinn
I agree with pretty much everything there, however the consumer does vastly dictate the payment platform. If consumers disagree with the way said creators make money then they will not spend their money there and the creator will have no choice but to try a different way of making money. (for the record I totally agree paid mods are here to stay, nothing to be done about it now)

Which is where the somewhat wrong saying comes from "the customer is always right". (yeah I hate that crap too, worked in retail for a few years and that line just grinds the gears) It is true in the sense that if the customer disagrees then your job and livelihood is down the drain.

Any opinion is the same value as any other opinion, it's the person who decides which opinions are more or less valid to them personally.

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wulfharth wrote: @crashpilot- Good morning. I had a lot more up, but I pulled them down because the community showed how appreciative it is. I'm re-working most of it to release when paid mods come back. Which will probably be with TES6. If you check the credits in the top 20 file "Immersive Weapons", you will see that I made that entire dragonbone weapon set. You've likely been using my weapons for years.

I've pulled everything down. The more our community shows it's true colors, the more mod authors will follow suit.

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Tyerial12 wrote: @wulfharth lol oh well then guess we dont see your mods for free it dont bother me one bit.. Ill give my money to non chilish mod authors

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np11 wrote: @wulfharth Good PR there, I'd love to see how many people who've actually seen you post will buy these fabled mods.

People, before you start selling things, you should really take some business, marketing or even psychology classes. Addressing potential customers like that and expecting your business to flourish... Good luck with that.

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Tanesis12 wrote: @ Vesuvius1745 I think that paid mods will be on the next Beth game, whether TES or FO. I don't think however it will imact quality as that would be a second pr disaster that Beth don't need.

@ thefinn "They can make the game so that when it runs it only allows mods that steam downloaded."

I think that Beth would want more control over modding in general if theres money involved. If only 1 site was allowed to run paid mods then mod authors would obviously prefere that site if they directly benefitted (I think?).

Incorporation of real life monies will change the way people use mods drasitcally and alter the relationship between mod author and mod consumer, the later who is now a customer (who should be able to expect certain consumer rights but thats a different issue). I can't help but feel that when, rather than if, mods become paid the only real winners will be Beth & Valve.

Also good posts thefinn, nicely insightful.

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3AMt wrote: Horse armors, swords and hats for 1.99 each for everyone. Yeah have fun selling mods.

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Brasscatcher wrote: I do try to avoid name calling, but I will call stupid behavior what it is. Most of this thread is full of stupid. Go ahead, accept Bethesda's offer. I bet every single one of you won't see a single bit of useful profit from anything you create. If you think trash-talking or belittling part of the community, or attempting to invalidate the opinions of one part of the community will net you anything, you are incorrect.


Stop being stupid. Be productive instead.

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CaladanAnduril wrote: Wulfharth

You should toughen your emotional "skin" if you want to stay in the modders community.
People like vesuvius will ALWAYS have DEMANDS, stupid and irrelevant for you.

Because THAT is what he want to smoke screen behind his fancy words and pseudo arguments, his pitiful demands.

Hi have paid for Skyrim game? ... good for him.
But he HAD NOT paid for YOUR or ANYONE mod, he could comment as long as he wish about Skyrim but when talking about your mods, your acts and your decisions, he's pure and simple hypocrite.

Again, if you paid for Skyrim

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fru1tcak3s wrote: > charging for the Creation Kit

Open source creation kit :tongue:

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wulfharth wrote: I don't need to have good PR with people who think they deserve everything for free. That's a pretty crappy customer base to build.

I'm moving on to another mod community. This one will be dead fairly soon. Be well all. I wish you all the luck in the world.

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Brasscatcher wrote: Well...bye! :smile:

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thefinn wrote: Yeah tend to agree, I think TB/Dark0ne/Brumbek say it best here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=5aavBAplp5A#t=4867

If you're just downloading and not contributing, not a forum user, not even hitting the endorse button - then who cares what your opinion is? It's only going to be the usual kinds of self-serving entitled crap that we see everywhere else on the net.

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np11 wrote: @wulfharth How crappy the customer base is is irrelevant. You want their money and you want to make a profit. That's all a business needs to know. If your customers are becoming a huge bother, you can deny them services, but you need to do so as politely as possible. The moment you start bickering and being aggressive to your customers, you've lost the game. Look at Valve and Bethesda's responses for god's sake. You'll get a feel of what a professional response should be like.

Well, have fun and good luck then.

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WightMage wrote: @np11

As someone who works in customer service and has their own business on the side, I could not agree more.

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Tyerial12 wrote: @wulfharth

For one i dont believe or want everything FREE i want a fair and working system that makes sure when we BUY A MOD that it works as it should and if it dosent we get more than one day for a refund or a way to contact the mod author if we want a fix. Prob is if a mod author just quits doing it means NOW the user is stuck with a broken mod.

also people are going to charge WAY to much for a mod that just adds one item or changes a couple textures. there needs to be a limit on this

But with the way your acting good luck on your future bussiness practices

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hector530 wrote: "I, nor anybody else, is telling mod authors what they can or cannot do with their "work""

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA good one

Hey! - My self-serving entitled crap is special. I have a sixth grade award somewhere that proves it. Blue ribbon and everything. When I saw the news about mods I figured "oh well, I'll decide which of these are actually worth paying for and which are just nice". When I saw the business arrangement I thought "They're turning these people into contract labor without incurring any associated overhead. I hope some of them are smart enough to run this by their lawyers". If you are running a small business (which is essentially what you will be doing under the paid mods model) always have an accountant and a lawyer on retainer. It's not expensive for what you get. The more I read, with the policies they were putting into place and the vitriol from some users, the more I became of the opinion that modders were getting screwed by both sides without the courtesy of a kiss or reach around. With the exception of a couple that I would happily trip with one of my canes because their egos seem out-sized, I do have sympathy for them.

As a user (I can't mod for shite) I understand that I have been getting something that the creators have chosen to share and I thank them for it. I do not however think that negates my opinion because the relationship between the two groups is symbiotic. I see this as a poorly executed trial balloon by Valve and Bethesda. Paid mods will be back with FO4 or TES6 but they will have put a lot more thought into it than they did this time around.

 

Kudos!

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Vesuvius1745 wrote: lol nice

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retnav98 wrote: Do you really think they let the trial run long enough to learn all the lessons they could?

The business arrangement is not new...in fact I think it is typical. Why would you pay for something if there was a workforce willing to work without it?

Back in the 1800's A gentleman went to the UK and for 2 years observed how raw materials were Milled to produce textiles, He came back to the US and from memory, recreated the US's first textile factories. (notice he was given access to the means to create something and never paid to get it) In the early days, Entire towns were established around this ONE industry. Women were paid in room and board as well as a relatively significant monthly rate of pay...they even had Medical benefits
At a point coincident with a marked increase in European immigration..a large number of people who lived in SHANTY TOWNS, were found to be willing to work for far less, As a result, the doctors were no longer necessary, neither were the Boarding houses.

The industry started because the US didn't want to ship cotton to the UK and then have the textiles shipped back to the US to convert fabric to clothing. It may not have been the original intention to so drastically undercut the cost of labor, but when that savings became apparent, why would anyone expect them to refuse it?

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aegiltheugly wrote: @RETNAV98 - I think they ran they trial balloon long enough to find out that introducing paid mods into an older game where they were formerly free is a bad idea. I think they ran it long enough to get an idea of what problems not having some of the more respected and essential mods under their control presents. I also think they have Marketing and R&D watching the forums very closely to see what continuing issues they will have to address when introducing paid mods with FO4 or TES6. There will still be some bugs and complaints when it is finally rolled out but they will have addressed most of the major concerns.

By the way, its good to see someone that okay with a return to the employer/employee relations of the 1800's. Maybe Valve and Bethesda can get some small children to clean their offices while they are at it. Those child labor laws are just pesky. ;-)

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retnav98 wrote: I was saying relative to the era, towns like Lowell, Mass. and others built almost IDEAL working conditions, only to cut costs in favor of profit...The point as I attempted to convey,(stated outright) was that it isn't NEW.

Even the most altruistic businesses are not tethered to the WORKER's issues. It's ironic too that of all the labor abuses of the 19th century, you key on CHILD labor....since CHILDREN can and DO publish MODS. I have no doubt that Valve had no interest in determining how much time a KID spent per day or how late into a 'School Night' they stayed up MODDING...and since those KIDS contributed to the "Community" and by extension Valve/Bethesda's PROFITS...
They already are "Getting kids to clean...".

The Midas mod that employed pop-ups in the free version to advertise the Pay version was not likely to be detected by a cursory glance. And it certainly wouldn't have been found if the scrutiny was only applied to the PAY MOD. The change over from Free to pay as Valve was attempting...didn't last long enough to realize all the ways it could be subverted...Maybe they think they have enough experience with other PAY MOD models...but if that were the case...they certainly didn't show it.

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aegiltheugly wrote: Oh.....So no child labor then? ;-( Because I have an obnoxious nephew that.....well....never mind.....forget I said anything!

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Vesuvius1745 wrote: I'm not aware of any pay-for mod system that has ever worked. Some have said DOTA, but without writing an essay, that's a horse of a different color (and "successful" is very subjective when applied to that example).

And the: "well back in the day, so-and-so learned how to do such-and-such for free and then got paid!" analogy also is incorrect. The reason it is incorrect is because we have a relatively new paradigm here with the advent of computers and the internet (not to mention journeymen never learned anything for "free"--they "paid" through their labor given to the Master of whatever trade).

The paradigm we have here is the "open source" community where people freely share thoughts, ideas, and "work" with each other. This paradigm doesn't necessarily preclude the possibility of people getting paid for *whatever*, it just makes the discussion of such a thing more dynamic.

The bottom line is this paradigm has worked great for over a decade with Skyrim mods (and we have been given professional and higher quality material than anything Bethesda has charged us for), and it is my belief that if something ain't broke, you don't fix it. When you try to fix something that ain't broke, just look at the Sims Modding community and how that worked out.

Experience is not restricted to Success..people can often learn more from experiencing an unsuccessful business venture...especially when they are the one losing the money...Learning at the school of hard knocks yes? But learning from a successful business will do in a pinch.

Lowell thought that if he could gain a relative mastery of a business that did not exist in the US...he would become a very wealthy man in a very short period of time. He was making something based on a potential market and he was not limited by his own invention. I don't get why you're lobbing PARADIGM around every 5th word unless it the word on your Calendar... My point was that we should not be appalled over Valvethesda's attempt to employ modders on the CHEAP as it is nothing new.

19th century textile industry and 21st century computer software technology are very OBVIOUSLY different but apples and oranges are still both fruit. Gaben et al are simply attempting to FARM a potential market. And finally...I'm sure at one point, People in the 19th century UK textile industry didn't think there was anything "BROKE".

[retnav98]

In response to post #24942159. #24942244, #24942979, #24943319, #24944114, #24944129, #24944354, #24945849, #24950174, #24952229, #24964969, #24965154 are all replies on the same post.

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bullpcp wrote: Trigger warning: This post is about perspective and relative importance. This may caused those with over-inflated senses of self importance to feel fear, anxiety, rage, or other negative emotions and lash out uncontrollably at those that have triggered them.

I love mods and i know it is easy to lose perspective being part of a modding community but the reality is... the modding community is simply not that important to the success of Bethesda's games or their bottom line.

According to Bethesda only about 8% of Skyrim players have ever used even a single mod and that less than 1% have ever created one. Given that the majority of those that have used mods would still have purchased and played Skyrim without mods this leaves well less than 4% of their sales in some way dependent on the modding community.

For the fraction of the 8% of mod users against paid for mods, and would never pay for mods if available, you aren't even potential customers and aren't terribly relevant to Bethesda's business decisions. Bethesda decisions about paid for mods also have to take into account the other 92%+ of Skyrim players that have never used a mod and to the other fraction of 8% that that are potential customers of paid for mods. Together they comprise well over 92% of their customers.

The VAST majority of Bethesda's customers are not part of the modding community. This community, both for and against paid for modding, is a very small minority of Skyrim players.

Some here have completely lost perspective on their relative importance to the success of Bethesda. Some have claimed, against all evidence, that Bethesda's success is somehow dependent upon mods and modding in general. This does not empirically seem to be the case.

Even if all who oppose paid for mods boycotted Bethesda they would see, at most, a few percent drop in sales of their game. A drop that may very well be more than made up for with increases in revenue from mods and those that may very well purchase their game due to the ease of use and easy availability of paid for mods.

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Vesuvius1745 wrote: And where is Bethesda getting the info that only 8% of people have ever used a mod? How would they know that? Even if they are counting console users with that equation (many of whom ended up buying Skyrim on the PC as well), I find that percentage hard to believe. Are they just going by Steam data? Just looking at the tens of millions of unique downloads on this site alone makes me think the same pencil pusher who came up with that figure is probably the same one who made the Hiroshima-style miscalculation with this pay-for rollout. They need to fire the individual(s) responsible for this abortion of creativity, and because they can't do math.

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bullpcp wrote: Vesuvius1745 Triggered! Just kidding.

Total Skyrim units sold 23,270,000

Skryim Sales By Platform
XBox 360 59 %
Playstation 3 27 %
PC 14 %

http://www.statisticbrain.com/skyrim-the-elder-scrolls-v-statistics/

"Only 8% of the Skyrim audience has ever used a mod. Less than 1% has ever made one."
http://www.bethblog.com/2015/04/27/why-were-trying-paid-skyrim-mods-on-steam/

8% of 23,270,000 would be 1,861,600 units using mods. The highest number of unique downloads is 7,384,353 for Skyrim HD - 2K Textures. I'm not sure how this was calculated but none of these numbers seem to contradict the Blog posts assertions.

I'm assuming they researched the topic. Your assertion seems to be that a multibillion dollar international company, in support of a multibillion dollar franchise, that specifically creates modding tools for the modding community, that has spent years planning on monetizing those mods, and that potentially had many millions of dollars at stake, doesn't know how many people use and create mods because some "pencil pusher" made a statistical error. I think I'll go with Bethesda's statistics.

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Vesuvius1745 wrote: "Your assertion seems to be that a multibillion dollar international company, in support of a multibillion dollar franchise, that specifically creates modding tools for the modding community, that has spent years planning on monetizing those mods, and that potentially had many millions of dollars at stake, doesn't know how many people use and create mods because some "pencil pusher" made a statistical error."

You've obviously never worked in the industry. I am an Electronic Arts vet (5 years, Redwood Shores California), and the number of stupid mistakes I saw from people who were paid a lot of money to know better was astounding. But yeah, feel free to believe anything they tell you without question. For me, and presumably others, we require a bit more evidence. And just from a cursory glance, I find their statistics suspect.

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bullpcp wrote: You don't have to convince me about how incompetent people can be. But since only 14% of all units sold are PC units, and almost all mods are created for PCs, this would necessarily indicate that a very small minority of their sales are dependent upon mods, modders, or modding community.

Even if 100% of the PC units sold used mods and 100% of those that used mods would not have purchased the unit without mods this would still only comprise 14% of their total sales.

Given that much less than 100% of PC units sold used mods, and far less than 100% of those that used mods would not have otherwise have purchased the product without mods, this would indicate that only a fraction of the 14% PC market are dependent upon the modding community.

These facts would necessarily indicate a possible range of 0%-14% of their sales are dependent on PC purchases and mod usage. My GUESS would be that a only a minority of their PC sales where dependent upon mod usage and that the reality of mod dependence would be at the bottom of the 0%-14% range.

This would indicate that the VAST majority of Skyrim users have never used a mod and that the vast majority of their sales are not dependent on modding. Given that they could have completely eliminated the PC market all together and Skyirm still would have been considered a huge commercial success. Please indicate how given the statistics available that Skyrims success would be dependent upon mods, modders, and the modding community. What combination of conditions, within the given statistical constraints, would indicate Skyrims success is dependent on modding?

I don't see how my interpretation of the data is dependent on Bethesda's accretions of modding statistics. I'm not writing this to diminish the community but to give it perspective. This is a tempest in a teacup. Again, I love mods but I have no illusions that Bethesda needs them to succeed.

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Vesuvius1745 wrote: I also wanted to add that I think you're a smart guy, and although I haven't agreed with your opinions in previous posts, I respect your viewpoint. Now those statistics very well may be correct, but in this instance I think you are just a little too eager to believe what they are telling you without question. I am no expert, but just going by the limited information I have access to I find that 8% figure suspect. That is why I'd be interested in knowing exactly how they came up with it. Since it's the premise for your whole point, I think it's an important detail.

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bullpcp wrote: I appreciate the complement. Everyone is as smart as they are, no more no less. Thank you for communicating with respect and without vitriol.

My premise is that only a minority of Skyrim's, and Bethesda's, sales are due to mods, modding, and the modding community and my conclusion would be that mods, modding, and the modding community are of only marginal importance to the success of Skyrim and Bethesda.

The evidence that this premise is based upon is fairly abundant. My post on platform sales data alone, with the assumption of statistically insignificant utilization of non pc platform modding, would indicate an upper limit on mod utilization of 14%. Their assertion of 8% does not seem unreasonable.

My GUESS would be that only 1%-2% or so of their total sales are dependent on modding. Under previous assumptions and constraints PC mod use may be assumed to be around 8%/14% or 57%+. Peace.

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bullpcp wrote: EA very nice, much respect.

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retnav98 wrote: So it doesn't phase you that the 1.8 million users of mods...each downloaded Skyrim HD 2k textures...roughly 4 times?

I would find that hard to believe if the number was 3.6 million(2x).

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Ghatto wrote: Man this is so off-base it's not funny. So what if somehow we knew that only "8% of buyers used mods" it means nothing and has absolutely nothing to do with the system for paying for mods.

Abosultely nothing.

There is no 'potential customers' in that 92% segment. If those in that group wanted to install mods AT ALL then they would not be in that 92%. There's no way that they haven't decided to mod simply because 'they want to pay money'. I mean that just sounds ridiculous.

In fact, I don't know why anybody wants that 92% to just take up modding for apparently extraneous reasons. I'm not saying that I want them to keep out of the community: I'm saying their introduction to modding shouldn't be some hyped up rapid shopping frenzy brought on by the likes of the Workshop/Bethesda/Valve. Other games would probably manage but the with likes of Skyrim these 'customers' will get themselves hurt - games will crash, saves will corrupt, buyers remorse will be heavy.

The very thing that's so sweet about the community of the Nexus here isn't just the lively modding scene that pumps out awesome free mods, it's the robust userbase that works together tirelessly to make sure these mods even function in fragile waif of an engine like Gamebryo. They get the best experiences when, without any money down, can try some mods, get some help/find verbose instructions on using them, and discuss getting it to work with others who a quite simply always in the same boat as them.

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bullpcp wrote: Ghatto
Bethesda the instigator of the system disagrees. It was one of the reasons they proposed the paid system to begin with.

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bullpcp wrote: retnav98
I've lost count of the number of times I've re installed Skyrim over the years, thinking I would have a chance to play it for once, so I'm unfortunately responsible for several of those downloads myself.

I get that...I've erased local content and reinstalled countless times too...but even if you repurchased the game it would decrease the ratio not increase it. I manually downloaded mods and then copied them to NMM so that I had the .rar file in a separate folder...NOT always true but after you reinstall your mod cache once..you learn to not make the mistake again.

[Moddingking]

after a couple of days they realize paid mods are retarded, hail FSP

[gastovski]

I'm glad these stuff happened and ended quickly so it showed your true self, Dark0ne.

[Tyerial12]

In response to post #24966929.

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gastovski wrote: I'm glad these stuff happened and ended quickly so it showed your true self, Dark0ne.

Dark0ne did nothing wrong so whats your issue

[Ghatto]

In response to post #24942159. #24942244, #24942979, #24943319, #24944114, #24944129, #24944354, #24945849, #24950174, #24952229, #24964969, #24965154, #24966094 are all replies on the same post.

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bullpcp wrote: Trigger warning: This post is about perspective and relative importance. This may caused those with over-inflated senses of self importance to feel fear, anxiety, rage, or other negative emotions and lash out uncontrollably at those that have triggered them.

I love mods and i know it is easy to lose perspective being part of a modding community but the reality is... the modding community is simply not that important to the success of Bethesda's games or their bottom line.

According to Bethesda only about 8% of Skyrim players have ever used even a single mod and that less than 1% have ever created one. Given that the majority of those that have used mods would still have purchased and played Skyrim without mods this leaves well less than 4% of their sales in some way dependent on the modding community.

For the fraction of the 8% of mod users against paid for mods, and would never pay for mods if available, you aren't even potential customers and aren't terribly relevant to Bethesda's business decisions. Bethesda decisions about paid for mods also have to take into account the other 92%+ of Skyrim players that have never used a mod and to the other fraction of 8% that that are potential customers of paid for mods. Together they comprise well over 92% of their customers.

The VAST majority of Bethesda's customers are not part of the modding community. This community, both for and against paid for modding, is a very small minority of Skyrim players.

Some here have completely lost perspective on their relative importance to the success of Bethesda. Some have claimed, against all evidence, that Bethesda's success is somehow dependent upon mods and modding in general. This does not empirically seem to be the case.

Even if all who oppose paid for mods boycotted Bethesda they would see, at most, a few percent drop in sales of their game. A drop that may very well be more than made up for with increases in revenue from mods and those that may very well purchase their game due to the ease of use and easy availability of paid for mods.

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Vesuvius1745 wrote: And where is Bethesda getting the info that only 8% of people have ever used a mod? How would they know that? Even if they are counting console users with that equation (many of whom ended up buying Skyrim on the PC as well), I find that percentage hard to believe. Are they just going by Steam data? Just looking at the tens of millions of unique downloads on this site alone makes me think the same pencil pusher who came up with that figure is probably the same one who made the Hiroshima-style miscalculation with this pay-for rollout. They need to fire the individual(s) responsible for this abortion of creativity, and because they can't do math.

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bullpcp wrote: Vesuvius1745 Triggered! Just kidding.

Total Skyrim units sold 23,270,000

Skryim Sales By Platform
XBox 360 59 %
Playstation 3 27 %
PC 14 %

http://www.statisticbrain.com/skyrim-the-elder-scrolls-v-statistics/

"Only 8% of the Skyrim audience has ever used a mod. Less than 1% has ever made one."
http://www.bethblog.com/2015/04/27/why-were-trying-paid-skyrim-mods-on-steam/

8% of 23,270,000 would be 1,861,600 units using mods. The highest number of unique downloads is 7,384,353 for Skyrim HD - 2K Textures. I'm not sure how this was calculated but none of these numbers seem to contradict the Blog posts assertions.

I'm assuming they researched the topic. Your assertion seems to be that a multibillion dollar international company, in support of a multibillion dollar franchise, that specifically creates modding tools for the modding community, that has spent years planning on monetizing those mods, and that potentially had many millions of dollars at stake, doesn't know how many people use and create mods because some "pencil pusher" made a statistical error. I think I'll go with Bethesda's statistics.

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Vesuvius1745 wrote: "Your assertion seems to be that a multibillion dollar international company, in support of a multibillion dollar franchise, that specifically creates modding tools for the modding community, that has spent years planning on monetizing those mods, and that potentially had many millions of dollars at stake, doesn't know how many people use and create mods because some "pencil pusher" made a statistical error."

You've obviously never worked in the industry. I am an Electronic Arts vet (5 years, Redwood Shores California), and the number of stupid mistakes I saw from people who were paid a lot of money to know better was astounding. But yeah, feel free to believe anything they tell you without question. For me, and presumably others, we require a bit more evidence. And just from a cursory glance, I find their statistics suspect.

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bullpcp wrote: You don't have to convince me about how incompetent people can be. But since only 14% of all units sold are PC units, and almost all mods are created for PCs, this would necessarily indicate that a very small minority of their sales are dependent upon mods, modders, or modding community.

Even if 100% of the PC units sold used mods and 100% of those that used mods would not have purchased the unit without mods this would still only comprise 14% of their total sales.

Given that much less than 100% of PC units sold used mods, and far less than 100% of those that used mods would not have otherwise have purchased the product without mods, this would indicate that only a fraction of the 14% PC market are dependent upon the modding community.

These facts would necessarily indicate a possible range of 0%-14% of their sales are dependent on PC purchases and mod usage. My GUESS would be that a only a minority of their PC sales where dependent upon mod usage and that the reality of mod dependence would be at the bottom of the 0%-14% range.

This would indicate that the VAST majority of Skyrim users have never used a mod and that the vast majority of their sales are not dependent on modding. Given that they could have completely eliminated the PC market all together and Skyirm still would have been considered a huge commercial success. Please indicate how given the statistics available that Skyrims success would be dependent upon mods, modders, and the modding community. What combination of conditions, within the given statistical constraints, would indicate Skyrims success is dependent on modding?

I don't see how my interpretation of the data is dependent on Bethesda's accretions of modding statistics. I'm not writing this to diminish the community but to give it perspective. This is a tempest in a teacup. Again, I love mods but I have no illusions that Bethesda needs them to succeed.

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Vesuvius1745 wrote: I also wanted to add that I think you're a smart guy, and although I haven't agreed with your opinions in previous posts, I respect your viewpoint. Now those statistics very well may be correct, but in this instance I think you are just a little too eager to believe what they are telling you without question. I am no expert, but just going by the limited information I have access to I find that 8% figure suspect. That is why I'd be interested in knowing exactly how they came up with it. Since it's the premise for your whole point, I think it's an important detail.

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bullpcp wrote: I appreciate the complement. Everyone is as smart as they are, no more no less. Thank you for communicating with respect and without vitriol.

My premise is that only a minority of Skyrim's, and Bethesda's, sales are due to mods, modding, and the modding community and my conclusion would be that mods, modding, and the modding community are of only marginal importance to the success of Skyrim and Bethesda.

The evidence that this premise is based upon is fairly abundant. My post on platform sales data alone, with the assumption of statistically insignificant utilization of non pc platform modding, would indicate an upper limit on mod utilization of 14%. Their assertion of 8% does not seem unreasonable.

My GUESS would be that only 1%-2% or so of their total sales are dependent on modding. Under previous assumptions and constraints PC mod use may be assumed to be around 8%/14% or 57%+. Peace.

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bullpcp wrote: EA very nice, much respect.

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retnav98 wrote: So it doesn't phase you that the 1.8 million users of mods...each downloaded Skyrim HD 2k textures...roughly 4 times?

I would find that hard to believe if the number was 3.6 million(2x).

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Ghatto wrote: Man this is so off-base it's not funny. So what if somehow we knew that only "8% of buyers used mods" it means nothing and has absolutely nothing to do with the system for paying for mods.

Abosultely nothing.

There is no 'potential customers' in that 92% segment. If those in that group wanted to install mods AT ALL then they would not be in that 92%. There's no way that they haven't decided to mod simply because 'they want to pay money'. I mean that just sounds ridiculous.

In fact, I don't know why anybody wants that 92% to just take up modding for apparently extraneous reasons. I'm not saying that I want them to keep out of the community: I'm saying their introduction to modding shouldn't be some hyped up rapid shopping frenzy brought on by the likes of the Workshop/Bethesda/Valve. Other games would probably manage but the with likes of Skyrim these 'customers' will get themselves hurt - games will crash, saves will corrupt, buyers remorse will be heavy.

The very thing that's so sweet about the community of the Nexus here isn't just the lively modding scene that pumps out awesome free mods, it's the robust userbase that works together tirelessly to make sure these mods even function in fragile waif of an engine like Gamebryo. They get the best experiences when, without any money down, can try some mods, get some help/find verbose instructions on using them, and discuss getting it to work with others who a quite simply always in the same boat as them.

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bullpcp wrote: Ghatto
Bethesda the instigator of the system disagrees. It was one of the reasons they proposed the paid system to begin with.

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bullpcp wrote: retnav98
I've lost count of the number of times I've re installed Skyrim over the years, thinking I would have a chance to play it for once, so I'm unfortunately responsible for several of those downloads myself.

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retnav98 wrote: I get that...I've erased local content and reinstalled countless times too...but even if you repurchased the game it would decrease the ratio not increase it. I manually downloaded mods and then copied them to NMM so that I had the .rar file in a separate folder...NOT always true but after you reinstall your mod cache once..you learn to not make the mistake again.

@Bullpcp

Bethesda the publisher may disagree, I dunno about the devs themselves: Bethesda Softworks. Yes they might be 'fine' with it since the workshop exists at all in its poorly implemented state. I was quite frankly disappointed with their tacit approval of that system when they know more than ANY of us how Skyrim should be modded (buggy release notwithstanding).

As I said, I'm not against an 'influx of new modders and mod-users'; I'm against an 'influx of new modders and mod-users because MONEY.'
It goes both way y'see: we're spending too much focus on why modders do or don't deserve to sell mods and make money, when a huge part of the issue is how we're making a new world of strange untested products for an undefined market that will be forced to navigate it alone, and that when the only reasonable excuse to do that to them is for more profit.