Why we can't use Patreon, and talking about donations and doing more to support mod authors

[sunshinenbrick]

 

In response to post #28716044.

 

 

 

sunshinenbrick wrote:

That's rather pessimistic point of view, Ghatto. Noone really knows what TES modding would look like if it was paid allowed long time ago. In April they pulled the plug out too fast to make any prediction from that small campaign. And in somewhat related field, writing genre prose, we used to have published books and free zins, then e-books plaftorms came and I didn't notice people arguing against it as you are against paid game mods.

The closing of public libraries and the freedom of knowledge is actually a very contentious issue. It's the same thing as digitisation in the music and movie market. Its all very nice and great but there are people out there who want to control it all. There is a lot of money involved, but that does not make it the right thing to do.

EDIT: Let me just explain what I mean a little further... the Nexus and sites like it are digital libraries. The recent paywall fiaso was the equivalent to trying to privatise a library with its members and workers picketing for better rights and conditions.

While I am for dedicated and good modders getting paid, it should be done in a respectful and decent manner. This cannot be isolated to what happened here even if it was a catalyst - there is a real danger with these unilateral trade agreements of which the paywall is an excellent example. While they give with one hand, a "job" and money, they take with the other, no social security, no national insurance, no retirement plan, no unemployment benefit (in case you get ill while modding)... the list goes on.

Being a modder of a professional calibre does not happen over night, it takes days, weeks, months, even years of hard graft, and most of that time would not be paid! And after all that... 25%, of which is 'wallet points' under a certain threshold?

Having a bath...

I think the point is, rather, that the matter is completely out of our hands. Whether or not paid modding is ever (re)introduced is not something that can be decided by you, me, Nexus or the community as a whole.

 

Bethesda is going to do whatever they want with their property. The ongoing discourse is fine but also rather pointless. If anyone has an issue with paid modding, they really ought to be taking it up with Bethesda. Modders and mod users alike can only argue in circles here, which ends with all of us angry and upset once again.

 

More to the subject at hand, I think Nexus has done a lot where donations are concerned. It's also obvious that pushing the studio any more on the subject of Patreon etc. could jeopardise an already rather precarious situation. Making the donation button more 'spammy' might achieve the opposite of the intended effect. So, taking an evening off is the only viable suggestion that pops into mind right now.

 

 

I agree, however as consumers (and creators in many cases) I would say that we do have the ability to leaverage. Tis sad but true that if Bethesda choose to chase this dragon I may not be able to follow...

 

It has been posted that Beth is releasing through other outlets, I hope this remains the case and that they carry the torch of open-world free roaming and creation into their new ventures.

 

But like another poster posted here... there are a lot of other games and game developers out there.

[FishBiter]

I have a feeling this entire situation is caused because some dope in a suit doesn't actually know what modding is.

[FishBiter]

In response to post #28651299. #28652059, #28661619, #28707844, #28708009, #28711714, #28713009 are all replies on the same post.

DorkDiva wrote: How is this still even a thing? Should it really be a thing at all? Would it not be better to let it lay quietly so the modding world and the ones modding can get back to normal, at least to some degree? The purity and fun of modding has been tainted because of all of this stuff. I think time out should be taken for things to heal up. At least a little. Seeing people cry about compensation for mods they made and worked on... what? Never have I ever made a mod with any sense of entitlement or dollar as a goal.

Sure, and I can confirm this, time, emotion, passion, heart, love and more go into creating mods. But if one is serious about getting paid for making something for games, perhaps go to school and get a job in the industry? Making mods should be fun, for sharing with friends, making things more fun...just plain old fun in general, not crazy serious with dollar signs as a goal. Honestly this is saddening and painful to see and read. What happened to fun? Where did it go? Maybe we all should go and find it! I thought that is why we played games, and modded for them? Not for a hunger for donations or "paid modding"...

Money should have no place in modding, at all. Ever. Period.

It just dose not feel...right. I don't know.

Maybe I am over reacting but it feels wrong.

macintroll wrote: Damn, open your eyes,
Modding already generate money, yes free mods can generate money.

Websites like this one, holding mods, make money (ads, memberships) they are companies, not individuals. It's a business.

Youtubers, writers, make money doing mod showcases (ads again)
Bethesda himself make money
- selling more games for a longer time period.
- recycling modders ideas without ever giving something in return.
And even Paypal take his toll for each donation

The only ones who are not even allowed to take some bucks or to say something are the ones who allow this business by providing free contents and making free support...the modders themselves.

And we are the ones considered as greed ?

bethjunkie wrote: I agree, DorkDiva. I wish we could go back to March before any of this happened. Every time another of these topics comes up, I die a little inside. Nobody's mind is ever changed.

But sticking to the subject of donations, I would be interested in donating if it could be completely anonymous. Money changing hands changes the relationship between modder/player and between friends and collaborators. I'd rather not even have a recipient know my username, much less my real name.

Lamproly wrote: "Nobody's mind is ever changed."

I disagree. Mine has changed. And I guess the one of many.
The problem I see in this world is that too many are quick to criticize and too few to show appreciation. This is something I had to realize for myself, too, because you have to look beyond the border of what you see as granted.
The way via donation was existent on the Nexus but I never thought much about it. It's similar to the endorsements. If Nexus didn't remind me to give them I would forget it all the time. I was one culprit who wished for a more prominent system that is still kind enough to not pierce the user's eye ... a difficult task, and I appreciate the Nexus for asking our opinion and ideas.

PS: As far as I know donating already is completely anonymous.

contrasia wrote: @Macintroll
Not greedy, just demanding. Ah the irony. A demand for donations rather than simply leaving it up to people to decide to donate. What a wonderful strategy.

macintroll wrote: @contrasia
My point was to show that there is already a market, an ecosystem around free mods.
And the only ones who are not allowed to take a place in this market are the modders themselves. that's what i call irony.

bethjunkie wrote: @Lamproly- No, donating is not completely anonymous. Both the donor and recipient see each other's real name and email address which is a no go for many people.

DorkDiva. You're not helping when you characterize it as "crying".

Also, who are you to tell modders why they should mod.

[simtam]

 

We must have different google results (they do that to make more ad money).

You know, I tried out Bing and it delivers number one result that gamebanana website on "free counterstrike go skins" query as well.

 

But it's also possible that for competiive multiplayers games only "blessed" skins are allowed to avoid cheating (I imagine mods making walls translucent), and that's another way to curb fully free game modificiations.

[CaughtInTheCrossfire]

If a mod author wants to charge for a mod that they've made and there is a platform available for them to do it legally, then I won't hold that against them.

 

However, I will never pay for a mod. I just won't. Nor will I ever charge for a mod that I make. So long as those of us who believe in free modding are able to get together and do our own thing, I'm happy.

 

I believe in choice. So I'm only going to get up in arms if it gets to the point where the only mods you can use are the paid ones and the only place to get them is through the official platform. But, by the time that happens, I'll probably already be too jaded and cynical that I'll already have quit gaming.

[Arthmoor]

In response to post #28722879.

CaughtInTheCrossfire wrote: If a mod author wants to charge for a mod that they've made and there is a platform available for them to do it legally, then I won't hold that against them.

However, I will never pay for a mod. I just won't. Nor will I ever charge for a mod that I make. So long as those of us who believe in free modding are able to get together and do our own thing, I'm happy.

I believe in choice. So I'm only going to get up in arms if it gets to the point where the only mods you can use are the paid ones and the only place to get them is through the official platform. But, by the time that happens, I'll probably already be too jaded and cynical that I'll already have quit gaming.

Now this is well said, and spot on. It's all about the choice. I'm glad at least someone gets it. :)

[sunshinenbrick]

 

In response to post #28722879.

 

 

 

CaughtInTheCrossfire wrote: If a mod author wants to charge for a mod that they've made and there is a platform available for them to do it legally, then I won't hold that against them.

 

However, I will never pay for a mod. I just won't. Nor will I ever charge for a mod that I make. So long as those of us who believe in free modding are able to get together and do our own thing, I'm happy.

 

I believe in choice. So I'm only going to get up in arms if it gets to the point where the only mods you can use are the paid ones and the only place to get them is through the official platform. But, by the time that happens, I'll probably already be too jaded and cynical that I'll already have quit gaming.

Now this is well said, and spot on. It's all about the choice. I'm glad at least someone gets it. :smile:

 

 

Well Sprked.com is still up and running, so it looks like that choice is now ours to take??

[adammcbane]

In response to post #28716044. #28717259 is also a reply to the same post.

sunshinenbrick wrote:

That's rather pessimistic point of view, Ghatto. Noone really knows what TES modding would look like if it was paid allowed long time ago. In April they pulled the plug out too fast to make any prediction from that small campaign. And in somewhat related field, writing genre prose, we used to have published books and free zins, then e-books plaftorms came and I didn't notice people arguing against it as you are against paid game mods.

 

The closing of public libraries and the freedom of knowledge is actually a very contentious issue. It's the same thing as digitisation in the music and movie market. Its all very nice and great but there are people out there who want to control it all. There is a lot of money involved, but that does not make it the right thing to do.

 

EDIT: Let me just explain what I mean a little further... the Nexus and sites like it are digital libraries. The recent paywall fiaso was the equivalent to trying to privatise a library with its members and workers picketing for better rights and conditions.

 

While I am for dedicated and good modders getting paid, it should be done in a respectful and decent manner. This cannot be isolated to what happened here even if it was a catalyst - there is a real danger with these unilateral trade agreements of which the paywall is an excellent example. While they give with one hand, a "job" and money, they take with the other, no social security, no national insurance, no retirement plan, no unemployment benefit (in case you get ill while modding)... the list goes on.

 

Being a modder of a professional calibre does not happen over night, it takes days, weeks, months, even years of hard graft, and most of that time would not be paid! And after all that... 25%, of which is 'wallet points' under a certain threshold?

 

Having a bath...

nonoodles wrote: I think the point is, rather, that the matter is completely out of our hands. Whether or not paid modding is ever (re)introduced is not something that can be decided by you, me, Nexus or the community as a whole.

Bethesda is going to do whatever they want with their property. The ongoing discourse is fine but also rather pointless. If anyone has an issue with paid modding, they really ought to be taking it up with Bethesda. Modders and mod users alike can only argue in circles here, which ends with all of us angry and upset once again.

More to the subject at hand, I think Nexus has done a lot where donations are concerned. It's also obvious that pushing the studio any more on the subject of Patreon etc. could jeopardise an already rather precarious situation. Making the donation button more 'spammy' might achieve the opposite of the intended effect. So, taking an evening off is the only viable suggestion that pops into mind right now.

"Bethesda is going to do whatever they want with their property. The ongoing discourse is fine but also rather pointless."

Not pointless at all, change starts with discussions. People did take it up with Bethesda, it's why Bethesda stopped and put out a statement admitting that. At that time Skyrim took a big hit even in game rating, so yes there are stuff that can be done, and no Bethesda can't really do anything they want if the entire community is against them almost no company can survive outright ignoring all it's customers to suggest that is silly especially given they admitted stopping due to the community outrage and honestly it wasn't even near the whole community.

I have spent nearly 200 hours on the CK and am working on a mod I hope to release soon and I can say that for me modding is more or less like playing the game, so for me demanding money is just silly, a donation I feel is very different. I can put a thousand hours into a mod and the community buys me just a cheeseburger from a dollar menu at Mcdonalds and I'd eat that burger with a huge smile lol. Edited September 16, 2015 by adammcbane

[simtam]

What you give as an example was more like "change _rolls back_ with discussions", from what I recall...

 

I'm having rather singular memories of that Incident April 23-27, because it was on a dark and stormy night of April 22 when I came up with a particularly good idea for my mod on how to move it forward. Had it occured to me a couple of days earlier, I'd start a mod recruitment thread and inevitably get caught in debates. On the other hand, if the paid mod announcement came earlier by a day or two, I'd likely give up this hobby project altogether. I'm feeling lucky... However, that recruitment thread which I eventually posted, is pretty much a fake - yet another post to promote early-access stage of my project... Really, I'd refrain from accepting other people contributions, at least until Fallout 4; deliberately leaving out 'deluxe' features, such as proper voice-acting, visual cutscenes, fancy spell effects, postponing them for better times.

[Totalstupidity]

In response to post #28651299. #28652059, #28661619, #28707844, #28708009, #28711714, #28713009, #28718154 are all replies on the same post.

DorkDiva wrote: How is this still even a thing? Should it really be a thing at all? Would it not be better to let it lay quietly so the modding world and the ones modding can get back to normal, at least to some degree? The purity and fun of modding has been tainted because of all of this stuff. I think time out should be taken for things to heal up. At least a little. Seeing people cry about compensation for mods they made and worked on... what? Never have I ever made a mod with any sense of entitlement or dollar as a goal.

Sure, and I can confirm this, time, emotion, passion, heart, love and more go into creating mods. But if one is serious about getting paid for making something for games, perhaps go to school and get a job in the industry? Making mods should be fun, for sharing with friends, making things more fun...just plain old fun in general, not crazy serious with dollar signs as a goal. Honestly this is saddening and painful to see and read. What happened to fun? Where did it go? Maybe we all should go and find it! I thought that is why we played games, and modded for them? Not for a hunger for donations or "paid modding"...

Money should have no place in modding, at all. Ever. Period.

It just dose not feel...right. I don't know.

Maybe I am over reacting but it feels wrong.

macintroll wrote: Damn, open your eyes,
Modding already generate money, yes free mods can generate money.

Websites like this one, holding mods, make money (ads, memberships) they are companies, not individuals. It's a business.

Youtubers, writers, make money doing mod showcases (ads again)
Bethesda himself make money
- selling more games for a longer time period.
- recycling modders ideas without ever giving something in return.
And even Paypal take his toll for each donation

The only ones who are not even allowed to take some bucks or to say something are the ones who allow this business by providing free contents and making free support...the modders themselves.

And we are the ones considered as greed ?

bethjunkie wrote: I agree, DorkDiva. I wish we could go back to March before any of this happened. Every time another of these topics comes up, I die a little inside. Nobody's mind is ever changed.

But sticking to the subject of donations, I would be interested in donating if it could be completely anonymous. Money changing hands changes the relationship between modder/player and between friends and collaborators. I'd rather not even have a recipient know my username, much less my real name.

Lamproly wrote: "Nobody's mind is ever changed."

I disagree. Mine has changed. And I guess the one of many.
The problem I see in this world is that too many are quick to criticize and too few to show appreciation. This is something I had to realize for myself, too, because you have to look beyond the border of what you see as granted.
The way via donation was existent on the Nexus but I never thought much about it. It's similar to the endorsements. If Nexus didn't remind me to give them I would forget it all the time. I was one culprit who wished for a more prominent system that is still kind enough to not pierce the user's eye ... a difficult task, and I appreciate the Nexus for asking our opinion and ideas.

PS: As far as I know donating already is completely anonymous.

contrasia wrote: @Macintroll
Not greedy, just demanding. Ah the irony. A demand for donations rather than simply leaving it up to people to decide to donate. What a wonderful strategy.

macintroll wrote: @contrasia
My point was to show that there is already a market, an ecosystem around free mods.
And the only ones who are not allowed to take a place in this market are the modders themselves. that's what i call irony.

bethjunkie wrote: @Lamproly- No, donating is not completely anonymous. Both the donor and recipient see each other's real name and email address which is a no go for many people.

FishBiter wrote: DorkDiva. You're not helping when you characterize it as "crying".

Also, who are you to tell modders why they should mod.

@macintroll Modding isn't a job. Maybe go make YouTube videos if you want to make money? Or work for Bethesda or some other dev if you think your mods are worth money? That's what jobs are for.
Charging for mods is a great way to destroy PC gaming since building a PC that can run console games costs double the price or more of a console, and people build these expensive PC's to mod. PC gaming is just getting popular and now you want to destroy it out of greed.
I mod many games with many many mods, and I'd have to pay thousands if those mods cost money. Do you understand? Most people don't have the money to buy all these mods. Payed mods would completely screw over everyone and send most people back to consoles. That means there would be way less games on PC if there's no good money to be had.

You're thinking selfishly about how YOU can make money from your couple of mods without a care of anyone else. That's greedy and selfish. I've donated occasionally and am even considering a $15 monthly donation sub for SWGEmu or Warhammer Online private servers, but forcing people to pay for hundreds for mods forever is just rotten and hateful. Edited September 16, 2015 by Totalstupidity