Why we can't use Patreon, and talking about donations and doing more to support mod authors

[NeolinWindblade]

So I guess I have a quick question. I'm not a modder (Well, I have 1 tiny mod released), but I can understand why modders would like to have donations for their time and talents. Which Is why I'm all for a volunteer-donation type system, and why I would probably support something like a Patreon system, if something were worked out...

 

Anyway, my question:

 

I understand that the Nexus itself can't use Patreon for their donation system, or even advocate for modders to do so, I get that. But are Bethesda saying that modders can't use Patreon themselves to support themselves while they are modding?

 

I have seen quite a few Patreon users (not modders necessarily, but game makers, art makers, etc) who release all their works for free, or release to their supporters first, but eventually make everything free as a project goes down the dev cycle. What would be the issue? Could not a modder use Patreon, but release the mod for free? In effect, this would be the supporters paying the modder for the time he is using to make the mod, but not for the mod itself, since the mod could be accessed for free by anyone.... Or are they saying that Bethesda has a legal issue with that?

 

I'm a big fan of Bethesda's games, but the paid modding thing did get to me. And what I see in their messages to Robin, about how they can't allow support of Patreon...all I see is greed. They don't want a cut of their possible profit being out of their hands...

[sevencardz]

In response to post #28608069.

Neolin_windblade wrote: So I guess I have a quick question. I'm not a modder (Well, I have 1 tiny mod released), but I can understand why modders would like to have donations for their time and talents. Which Is why I'm all for a volunteer-donation type system, and why I would probably support something like a Patreon system, if something were worked out...

Anyway, my question:

I understand that the Nexus itself can't use Patreon for their donation system, or even advocate for modders to do so, I get that. But are Bethesda saying that modders can't use Patreon themselves to support themselves while they are modding?

I have seen quite a few Patreon users (not modders necessarily, but game makers, art makers, etc) who release all their works for free, or release to their supporters first, but eventually make everything free as a project goes down the dev cycle. What would be the issue? Could not a modder use Patreon, but release the mod for free? In effect, this would be the supporters paying the modder for the time he is using to make the mod, but not for the mod itself, since the mod could be accessed for free by anyone.... Or are they saying that Bethesda has a legal issue with that?

I'm a big fan of Bethesda's games, but the paid modding thing did get to me. And what I see in their messages to Robin, about how they can't allow support of Patreon...all I see is greed. They don't want a cut of their possible profit being out of their hands...

Good question. I was actually wondering this myself. If a modder were to say... change the description on a mod hosted on the Nexus to instead link to a neutral external site hosting the mod description and a Patreon link designed specifically to support the modder's time and effort (not the mod itself) - could Bethesda take issue with that? To be clear - the 'service' provided here would not be the mod, or even updates to the mod (which would happen free of charge on the Nexus). Rather the 'service' would be the time spent by the modder developing features for the mod, supporting the mod, communicating with users about bugs and updates, etc.

Bethesda doesn't own me or my time so they can't claim to have any rights to any revenue I generate from that. Essentially, users would be donating to me as a mod author for my time and expertise, not for the mods themselves.

Based on Bethesda's rather terse response, it sounds like they don't even know where the line is or they haven't put much thought into it beyond "Oh, just tell everyone not to do anything that might cut into our profit margin". No problem - my time is not part of Bethesda's profit margin.

[icecreamassassin]

In response to post #28608069. #28610219 is also a reply to the same post.

Neolin_windblade wrote: So I guess I have a quick question. I'm not a modder (Well, I have 1 tiny mod released), but I can understand why modders would like to have donations for their time and talents. Which Is why I'm all for a volunteer-donation type system, and why I would probably support something like a Patreon system, if something were worked out...

Anyway, my question:

I understand that the Nexus itself can't use Patreon for their donation system, or even advocate for modders to do so, I get that. But are Bethesda saying that modders can't use Patreon themselves to support themselves while they are modding?

I have seen quite a few Patreon users (not modders necessarily, but game makers, art makers, etc) who release all their works for free, or release to their supporters first, but eventually make everything free as a project goes down the dev cycle. What would be the issue? Could not a modder use Patreon, but release the mod for free? In effect, this would be the supporters paying the modder for the time he is using to make the mod, but not for the mod itself, since the mod could be accessed for free by anyone.... Or are they saying that Bethesda has a legal issue with that?

I'm a big fan of Bethesda's games, but the paid modding thing did get to me. And what I see in their messages to Robin, about how they can't allow support of Patreon...all I see is greed. They don't want a cut of their possible profit being out of their hands...

sevencardz wrote: Good question. I was actually wondering this myself. If a modder were to say... change the description on a mod hosted on the Nexus to instead link to a neutral external site hosting the mod description and a Patreon link designed specifically to support the modder's time and effort (not the mod itself) - could Bethesda take issue with that? To be clear - the 'service' provided here would not be the mod, or even updates to the mod (which would happen free of charge on the Nexus). Rather the 'service' would be the time spent by the modder developing features for the mod, supporting the mod, communicating with users about bugs and updates, etc.

Bethesda doesn't own me or my time so they can't claim to have any rights to any revenue I generate from that. Essentially, users would be donating to me as a mod author for my time and expertise, not for the mods themselves.

Based on Bethesda's rather terse response, it sounds like they don't even know where the line is or they haven't put much thought into it beyond "Oh, just tell everyone not to do anything that might cut into our profit margin". No problem - my time is not part of Bethesda's profit margin.

The issue is that Nexus would be responsible for any links to external sites that directly provide something that Bethesda is legally against. Nexus would not allow a link to your Patreon site for example. The only gray area around this would be if you put a link to your blog which has info about your Patreon account. I think at that point, Bethesda would not be able to hold Nexus accountable because Nexus is not in control of content on other people's web pages, only the links to offending web pages (direct links to patreon for example).

[icecreamassassin]

In response to post #28608069. #28610219, #28612134 are all replies on the same post.

Neolin_windblade wrote: So I guess I have a quick question. I'm not a modder (Well, I have 1 tiny mod released), but I can understand why modders would like to have donations for their time and talents. Which Is why I'm all for a volunteer-donation type system, and why I would probably support something like a Patreon system, if something were worked out...

Anyway, my question:

I understand that the Nexus itself can't use Patreon for their donation system, or even advocate for modders to do so, I get that. But are Bethesda saying that modders can't use Patreon themselves to support themselves while they are modding?

I have seen quite a few Patreon users (not modders necessarily, but game makers, art makers, etc) who release all their works for free, or release to their supporters first, but eventually make everything free as a project goes down the dev cycle. What would be the issue? Could not a modder use Patreon, but release the mod for free? In effect, this would be the supporters paying the modder for the time he is using to make the mod, but not for the mod itself, since the mod could be accessed for free by anyone.... Or are they saying that Bethesda has a legal issue with that?

I'm a big fan of Bethesda's games, but the paid modding thing did get to me. And what I see in their messages to Robin, about how they can't allow support of Patreon...all I see is greed. They don't want a cut of their possible profit being out of their hands...

sevencardz wrote: Good question. I was actually wondering this myself. If a modder were to say... change the description on a mod hosted on the Nexus to instead link to a neutral external site hosting the mod description and a Patreon link designed specifically to support the modder's time and effort (not the mod itself) - could Bethesda take issue with that? To be clear - the 'service' provided here would not be the mod, or even updates to the mod (which would happen free of charge on the Nexus). Rather the 'service' would be the time spent by the modder developing features for the mod, supporting the mod, communicating with users about bugs and updates, etc.

Bethesda doesn't own me or my time so they can't claim to have any rights to any revenue I generate from that. Essentially, users would be donating to me as a mod author for my time and expertise, not for the mods themselves.

Based on Bethesda's rather terse response, it sounds like they don't even know where the line is or they haven't put much thought into it beyond "Oh, just tell everyone not to do anything that might cut into our profit margin". No problem - my time is not part of Bethesda's profit margin.

icecreamassassin wrote: The issue is that Nexus would be responsible for any links to external sites that directly provide something that Bethesda is legally against. Nexus would not allow a link to your Patreon site for example. The only gray area around this would be if you put a link to your blog which has info about your Patreon account. I think at that point, Bethesda would not be able to hold Nexus accountable because Nexus is not in control of content on other people's web pages, only the links to offending web pages (direct links to patreon for example).

That said, there would be nothing stopping Bethesda from coming after the modder directly and it would be within their right to do so, but it would be a needle in a haystack situation to track down the modders that are setting up support pages.

The only other way I see would be if you were a designer in other areas such as a table top RPG/Board/Card game designer (like me) who has products and projects in the works and you also made mention of your modding projects (blog style) and via the Nexus based link to your blog page people could find your patreon page, I think it would be pretty hard to have Nexus or Bethesda object as long as the other projects were in fact legit and your mod fans wanted to just happen to support your modding by means of supporting your other projects.

[TheVanguardKing]

If I thought I could make ends meet by producing mods, I would be producing mods. If I could make a decent living by producing mods, I would never stop.

 

If I ever had a dream, it was game development. If not for the realities of the industry, and life in general, maybe it would be more than a dream. Paid modding, for a fraction of a moment, looked like a way into game development without indentured servitude or playing the lottery. And then I saw the split. And then it was gone.

 

I absolutely believe there is a place in the market for high quality paid mods, whether through commissions, Patreon, or (to a lesser extent) a pay to access system.

 

While I don't think it's an unreasonable idea, I don't think Bethesda has an inherent right to be paid for mod author work. I wouldn't pay my car manufacturer for the ability to DIY install a 3rd party stereo. They do however provide tools that make it a hell of a lot easier.

 

If I could make ends meet by producing mods, I would be producing mods. If I could make a decent living by producing mods, I would never stop. But I can't, and that sucks.

[Deleted23213994User]

In response to post #28567949. #28568274, #28568494, #28571489, #28572304, #28575029, #28575269, #28593339, #28594674, #28596009, #28596734, #28602924, #28604599 are all replies on the same post.

seweryn wrote: I really do not get the issue. So exactly do you want money ? Are you saying you cannot mod because are too bored ? Maybe you should stop modding then or take a break. Modding was always a hobby, something you do for fun or personal enjoyment, not something you do for living.
When i was a part of medieval brotherhood, when i was younger, there were a lot of cost involved it, cost of swords and armor, it cost some cash, traveling to tournaments, sometimes to different countries, but did this because i loved it and not becaused i was hoping for some cash, the moment i stoped having fun with it, i left; simple as that.
If you need to be paid to do mods then maybe you should stop doing it altogether, since it is clear you no longer have the love for it. Instead of something that gives you pleasure you want another revenue source.
If i were you i would just leave it and find something that gives you pleasure.

Xilandro wrote: You're clearly not a modder =D Want to know what modders think? Become one, and then - speak. No offence.

Ducksaws wrote: Just because I love my job means I don't deserve to get paid for the work??

DrakeTheDragon wrote: I wish people would stop repeatedly posting this nonsense when they don't know the harmful unintended implications it does have.

You cannot tell authors why they are modding or for what reasons. They do it for their own, whatever these are, and many authors think about it very differently. Trying to do so offends "many" authors in general every single time.

As you can't know why they started modding, you also can't tell them they should stop it. Reading you doing so "again" offends many authors, whether they're your target group or not.

I really wish people posting these would understand that in most cases it's the still free sharing authors rather taking up their suggestions instead and leaving, as these have absolutely nothing of value to loose by quitting, and the receiving end is making itself more and more not worth the time and effort, whereas the ones hoping for payment at some point will stay until it becomes clear they won't get it ever, which quite frankly will never happen as long as the companies themselves are still looking into it on a big scale.

Mod authors in a way are in many cases somewhat like a hive mind. Attack one and chances are really high many others, if not most, will feel attacked just as much, or at least really offended by "one of them" being attacked. Blanket statements made against some, the more blanket they are, the more authors in general they will hit, but mostly those "not" intended to get hit.

These people are doing lists, mind you, mentally or actually on paper, of all the s#*! they already had to take, whether personally or against mod authors in general, and how much more of it they still can take, before too much is too much. Every single time statements like this, and suggestions like "..., then you should just stop sharing your mods and do something else", pop up again somewhere in comments and these people see them, there goes another tally.

Everyone has a different limit, of course, but would you be an author, and able to read behind the curtains, where they discuss these things among themselves in private, you'd see how many have already quit and left over the community's reaction to the Steam paid mods attempt alone, or the comments made against the very idea of the work of these people being "worth anything", or how much they "should" be doing it "for the community" or they're "not doing it right", or better yet "shouldn't be doing it at all" to begin with. These all hit the mark, but mostly also with the wrong targets.

They hear you, they listen, they leave, or just stop sharing... but it's "not" (just) the ones you're talking to.

I'm seeing far too many of these popping up in comments recently, and considering their number is in direct relation to the number of free sharing authors quitting over it and similar things, it's by far not a pleasant picture.
I really wish they'd stop. But like all the others along the same ilk, they just won't.

So congratulations, for successfully removing yet another X mod authors and/or their mods and/or their knowledge, wisdom and expertise from the community, mostly free sharing ones at that.
(X here is not necessarily a whole number, but it's not unlikely to be >1 either, and at the end of the day, these are just summing up until the point whole numbers are reached again.)
Keep it coming, people, there's still some authors left!

Jafin16 wrote: Why don't you make a mod and try to support that mod? Then come back in 6 months and say the same. You won't. You're right, in general (but certainly not exclusively) modders make mods because they want to make them, whether for use in their game, because they like the process, it's practice for schooling or work (thinking 3D modelling here... and Falskaar which got the guy a job), and other reasons. However, the primary motivator for many is not sharing the mod and certainly not doing all the support necessary. Many (most?) mod authors share the mod out of the goodness of their heart... and then the requests, the inane, repetitive questions, the "this mod is crap" comments start coming in. Suddenly, instead of modding for fun, you're running tech support and, if you're generous, you might start helping people fix their computers they broke themselves in an effort to help them get your REALLY SIMPLE TO INSTALL AND USE MOD to work on their borked systems. After awhile, you might like it when someone sends you five bucks, or buys you a game on Steam or the like because you've been putting up with a ridiculous number of annoyances and abuse for your good hearted effort to share with the community... a community which very rarely gives back.

This is just one possible example why a donation might be nice once in awhile... even if it's just $5. You may respond with "Well if you don't like doing it, then maybe you shouldn't do it anymore!" Ok, all of the mod authors who would maybe like a donation once in awhile, even though they rarely if ever get them, will just take our mods down and use them ourselves. OH WAIT! You can't have that! Then you won't have any mods to use! See the problem with your thesis? It actually hurts the mod users more than the authors. The authors can make their own content. Those who are simply mod users, well they can't.

Ok, I'm done. *shuffles away*

seweryn wrote: All i get was backlash, but my question didn't get answered.
1. I tried to do some modding but it takes too much time and i prefer to do other things.
2. i was modding witcher 2, creating my own version of stats, difficulty, but i wasn't happy with the quality so i didn't release it.
3. I am not a programmer, graphic artist or designer; In truth i hate those things.
They are just not my cup of tea.

So could someone explain me why because i do not get it.
I want to understand this.

B1gBadDaddy wrote: You want to know why you don't enjoy modding? Probably the same reason you don't enjoy anything you don't do...

Arthmoor wrote: So tell me something. Are you saying that everyone who has a job necessarily must hate doing that job? Cause that's what it sounds like to me. That you shouldn't get paid to do something you love doing.

Though... that could explain why everyone is so miserable looking at their jobs. Maybe nobody really does like what they do for a living. Maybe it's these people who hate that they have to suffer and demand everyone else suffer along with them or it's not a valid way to make money. But no, that would be terribly cynical.

tl;dr: Thinks that give you pleasure can ALSO be sources of revenue.

Chesko wrote: seweryn - I don't want to make an argument for or against, but I think it's important to speak to your initial analogy, re: participation in a sport or group activity.

The important difference is that in that case, you are spending money and energy to bring enjoyment to yourself (and indirectly, your teammates or other association members) through participation. And especially in the case of a sport, all team members are (more or less) equal contributors. You're all putting in equal sweat, time, and money for "the love of the game/clan/group/etc". Shared commitment, shared resources, shared goals. Very "you and me, we're in this together".

Modders spend large amounts of time, and sometimes money, to bring enjoyment to a large number of people who do not spend any money and a trivial amount of time. There is less "we're in this together"-ness and more of a producer-consumer dynamic.

Can you imagine the Nexus, if the right to download mods was only granted if you had made one yourself? Even something incredibly "simple". Interesting to think how that might change not only how users think about modders and modding, but also how modders think about their users (who are now other modders, too). If every user were a modder, it would feel more like we're all in a big team, and that would certainly be something. This won't happen, but it's interesting to think about.

Galadreal wrote: @ Jafin16
THANK YOU!! my gods that was so accurate it was scary. Seriously, I started doing this as a hobby, but I get so damned sick and tired of trying to help troubleshoot because people cannot read the description, then say my mod broke their game because they cannot take less than 10 minute to read the damned page. Yes, if you see a bug, please let me know, I will be glad to fix it. If you can't move kids into your house because you just did not read the damned description then no, get lost, I have already answered that question on the front page, and 20 more times in the comments. If someone wanted me to buy me a frappachino for my work, I would be frigging elated.

I still enjoy modding, I still enjoy making stuff, I get so damned tired of criticism by people who have no idea how long or difficult it is, or who don't read directions. Or better yet, people who don't mod, but insist that they can tell you of their own great idea that you should drop everything that you are working on to do their project, because, they just don't understand how it works, or don't have time. Yeah...forget that. It is not, nor has it ever been about making money. But if someone wanted to be nice and say, "you know, I really appreciate the 1000+ hours you spent on these things, I would like to buy you a cup of coffee." I would be ecstatic, I really would. Endorsements are nice, they say "hey, I saw you mod, tried it out, and it enjoyed it." but if it is one of your MUST HAVE mods, one that you cannot play Skyrim without having, then why not throw a little extra something towards the authors who made it that much better? They have not asked, it is just a nice thing to do.

Ynguatep wrote: What Ducksaws wrote is a common thing you get to hear as a dev in the games business. Sad, but true. You got your dream job, don't whine about money. Believe me this can spoil the dream job completely.

This is why I believe that mod donations are a sign of respect. You can't earn actual money by modding, you'll hardly get your time paid (exceptions may happen). I see this, as Patreon and donations of this kind in general, as a revival of the almost extinct support for artists named after Maecenas. Pay an artist if you want something special, donate to them if you like their art. Or mods. Games are art, after all.

To tell an artist, or anyone else who adds to cultural wealth without getting paid, that taking donations is evil, is to tell them to starve. It is also a sign of appreciation. Basically, you call modder's work worthless, or them worthless 'cause they "spoil" it by monetary issues. Each modder can decide for themselves whether they want donations or not. Some won't need it, some might be happy to be rewarded.
Try to earn your living with art and / or making games for a while. I do, and wasn't even able to afford a gambison, not even speaking about chainmail or traveling to medieval reenactment events regularly. "do something that gives you pleasure" is easily said if you've got a regular income. Even people who work nine-to-five in the games biz (more like nine-to-late, lol) who mod in their spare time might like to see a "thank you" in words or coin from time to time.

Also don't forget modders who work with a team, mostly working for free, who use the donations to pay their coders, composers and testers, or also just to say "thanks".

Softclocks wrote: This isn't your job. Nobody hired you. You're doing this out of your own free will.

Ynguatep wrote: Yes. But that does not prohibit me for accepting donations (sic! )
I merely had to note how ungrateful the games biz already is, and I would be deeply disappointed if the modding area turns out to be as ignorant towards modders as the biz is towards the people which make it possible. All of this here would not exist without modders. They mod not only for their fun, but for everyone's. To say "donations spoil the fun" sounds like "you did not earn a thanks". Well, thanks for that.
Mods are still free. If you don't want to or can't donate, don't do it. Nobody will be blamed for that.

blah blah blah...


Seweryn, I agree with you on this. Modding is a humble hobby. It has been for a very very long time. But now people are demanding donations. Just as much as they did endorsement. The entitlement I swear. This place is the Facebook of modding. All these narcissistic people just feeling demanding, and if they don't get it, they throw a fit until they do get it. Not making enough, find a better job.

I'll spare the lecture. But yeah, these people wouldn't get a nickle out of me. Don't care how many hundreds of hours are put into the project. No one is holding a gun to their head and demanding it be made. Want money? Get a job. Edited September 11, 2015 by Guest

[Ynguatep]

In response to post #28567949. #28568274, #28568494, #28571489, #28572304, #28575029, #28575269, #28593339, #28594674, #28596009, #28596734, #28602924, #28604599, #28614394 are all replies on the same post.

seweryn wrote: I really do not get the issue. So exactly do you want money ? Are you saying you cannot mod because are too bored ? Maybe you should stop modding then or take a break. Modding was always a hobby, something you do for fun or personal enjoyment, not something you do for living.
When i was a part of medieval brotherhood, when i was younger, there were a lot of cost involved it, cost of swords and armor, it cost some cash, traveling to tournaments, sometimes to different countries, but did this because i loved it and not becaused i was hoping for some cash, the moment i stoped having fun with it, i left; simple as that.
If you need to be paid to do mods then maybe you should stop doing it altogether, since it is clear you no longer have the love for it. Instead of something that gives you pleasure you want another revenue source.
If i were you i would just leave it and find something that gives you pleasure.

Xilandro wrote: You're clearly not a modder =D Want to know what modders think? Become one, and then - speak. No offence.

Ducksaws wrote: Just because I love my job means I don't deserve to get paid for the work??

DrakeTheDragon wrote: I wish people would stop repeatedly posting this nonsense when they don't know the harmful unintended implications it does have.

You cannot tell authors why they are modding or for what reasons. They do it for their own, whatever these are, and many authors think about it very differently. Trying to do so offends "many" authors in general every single time.

As you can't know why they started modding, you also can't tell them they should stop it. Reading you doing so "again" offends many authors, whether they're your target group or not.

I really wish people posting these would understand that in most cases it's the still free sharing authors rather taking up their suggestions instead and leaving, as these have absolutely nothing of value to loose by quitting, and the receiving end is making itself more and more not worth the time and effort, whereas the ones hoping for payment at some point will stay until it becomes clear they won't get it ever, which quite frankly will never happen as long as the companies themselves are still looking into it on a big scale.

Mod authors in a way are in many cases somewhat like a hive mind. Attack one and chances are really high many others, if not most, will feel attacked just as much, or at least really offended by "one of them" being attacked. Blanket statements made against some, the more blanket they are, the more authors in general they will hit, but mostly those "not" intended to get hit.

These people are doing lists, mind you, mentally or actually on paper, of all the s#*! they already had to take, whether personally or against mod authors in general, and how much more of it they still can take, before too much is too much. Every single time statements like this, and suggestions like "..., then you should just stop sharing your mods and do something else", pop up again somewhere in comments and these people see them, there goes another tally.

Everyone has a different limit, of course, but would you be an author, and able to read behind the curtains, where they discuss these things among themselves in private, you'd see how many have already quit and left over the community's reaction to the Steam paid mods attempt alone, or the comments made against the very idea of the work of these people being "worth anything", or how much they "should" be doing it "for the community" or they're "not doing it right", or better yet "shouldn't be doing it at all" to begin with. These all hit the mark, but mostly also with the wrong targets.

They hear you, they listen, they leave, or just stop sharing... but it's "not" (just) the ones you're talking to.

I'm seeing far too many of these popping up in comments recently, and considering their number is in direct relation to the number of free sharing authors quitting over it and similar things, it's by far not a pleasant picture.
I really wish they'd stop. But like all the others along the same ilk, they just won't.

So congratulations, for successfully removing yet another X mod authors and/or their mods and/or their knowledge, wisdom and expertise from the community, mostly free sharing ones at that.
(X here is not necessarily a whole number, but it's not unlikely to be >1 either, and at the end of the day, these are just summing up until the point whole numbers are reached again.)
Keep it coming, people, there's still some authors left!

Jafin16 wrote: Why don't you make a mod and try to support that mod? Then come back in 6 months and say the same. You won't. You're right, in general (but certainly not exclusively) modders make mods because they want to make them, whether for use in their game, because they like the process, it's practice for schooling or work (thinking 3D modelling here... and Falskaar which got the guy a job), and other reasons. However, the primary motivator for many is not sharing the mod and certainly not doing all the support necessary. Many (most?) mod authors share the mod out of the goodness of their heart... and then the requests, the inane, repetitive questions, the "this mod is crap" comments start coming in. Suddenly, instead of modding for fun, you're running tech support and, if you're generous, you might start helping people fix their computers they broke themselves in an effort to help them get your REALLY SIMPLE TO INSTALL AND USE MOD to work on their borked systems. After awhile, you might like it when someone sends you five bucks, or buys you a game on Steam or the like because you've been putting up with a ridiculous number of annoyances and abuse for your good hearted effort to share with the community... a community which very rarely gives back.

This is just one possible example why a donation might be nice once in awhile... even if it's just $5. You may respond with "Well if you don't like doing it, then maybe you shouldn't do it anymore!" Ok, all of the mod authors who would maybe like a donation once in awhile, even though they rarely if ever get them, will just take our mods down and use them ourselves. OH WAIT! You can't have that! Then you won't have any mods to use! See the problem with your thesis? It actually hurts the mod users more than the authors. The authors can make their own content. Those who are simply mod users, well they can't.

Ok, I'm done. *shuffles away*

seweryn wrote: All i get was backlash, but my question didn't get answered.
1. I tried to do some modding but it takes too much time and i prefer to do other things.
2. i was modding witcher 2, creating my own version of stats, difficulty, but i wasn't happy with the quality so i didn't release it.
3. I am not a programmer, graphic artist or designer; In truth i hate those things.
They are just not my cup of tea.

So could someone explain me why because i do not get it.
I want to understand this.

B1gBadDaddy wrote: You want to know why you don't enjoy modding? Probably the same reason you don't enjoy anything you don't do...

Arthmoor wrote: So tell me something. Are you saying that everyone who has a job necessarily must hate doing that job? Cause that's what it sounds like to me. That you shouldn't get paid to do something you love doing.

Though... that could explain why everyone is so miserable looking at their jobs. Maybe nobody really does like what they do for a living. Maybe it's these people who hate that they have to suffer and demand everyone else suffer along with them or it's not a valid way to make money. But no, that would be terribly cynical.

tl;dr: Thinks that give you pleasure can ALSO be sources of revenue.

Chesko wrote: seweryn - I don't want to make an argument for or against, but I think it's important to speak to your initial analogy, re: participation in a sport or group activity.

The important difference is that in that case, you are spending money and energy to bring enjoyment to yourself (and indirectly, your teammates or other association members) through participation. And especially in the case of a sport, all team members are (more or less) equal contributors. You're all putting in equal sweat, time, and money for "the love of the game/clan/group/etc". Shared commitment, shared resources, shared goals. Very "you and me, we're in this together".

Modders spend large amounts of time, and sometimes money, to bring enjoyment to a large number of people who do not spend any money and a trivial amount of time. There is less "we're in this together"-ness and more of a producer-consumer dynamic.

Can you imagine the Nexus, if the right to download mods was only granted if you had made one yourself? Even something incredibly "simple". Interesting to think how that might change not only how users think about modders and modding, but also how modders think about their users (who are now other modders, too). If every user were a modder, it would feel more like we're all in a big team, and that would certainly be something. This won't happen, but it's interesting to think about.

Galadreal wrote: @ Jafin16
THANK YOU!! my gods that was so accurate it was scary. Seriously, I started doing this as a hobby, but I get so damned sick and tired of trying to help troubleshoot because people cannot read the description, then say my mod broke their game because they cannot take less than 10 minute to read the damned page. Yes, if you see a bug, please let me know, I will be glad to fix it. If you can't move kids into your house because you just did not read the damned description then no, get lost, I have already answered that question on the front page, and 20 more times in the comments. If someone wanted me to buy me a frappachino for my work, I would be frigging elated.

I still enjoy modding, I still enjoy making stuff, I get so damned tired of criticism by people who have no idea how long or difficult it is, or who don't read directions. Or better yet, people who don't mod, but insist that they can tell you of their own great idea that you should drop everything that you are working on to do their project, because, they just don't understand how it works, or don't have time. Yeah...forget that. It is not, nor has it ever been about making money. But if someone wanted to be nice and say, "you know, I really appreciate the 1000+ hours you spent on these things, I would like to buy you a cup of coffee." I would be ecstatic, I really would. Endorsements are nice, they say "hey, I saw you mod, tried it out, and it enjoyed it." but if it is one of your MUST HAVE mods, one that you cannot play Skyrim without having, then why not throw a little extra something towards the authors who made it that much better? They have not asked, it is just a nice thing to do.

Ynguatep wrote: What Ducksaws wrote is a common thing you get to hear as a dev in the games business. Sad, but true. You got your dream job, don't whine about money. Believe me this can spoil the dream job completely.

This is why I believe that mod donations are a sign of respect. You can't earn actual money by modding, you'll hardly get your time paid (exceptions may happen). I see this, as Patreon and donations of this kind in general, as a revival of the almost extinct support for artists named after Maecenas. Pay an artist if you want something special, donate to them if you like their art. Or mods. Games are art, after all.

To tell an artist, or anyone else who adds to cultural wealth without getting paid, that taking donations is evil, is to tell them to starve. It is also a sign of appreciation. Basically, you call modder's work worthless, or them worthless 'cause they "spoil" it by monetary issues. Each modder can decide for themselves whether they want donations or not. Some won't need it, some might be happy to be rewarded.
Try to earn your living with art and / or making games for a while. I do, and wasn't even able to afford a gambison, not even speaking about chainmail or traveling to medieval reenactment events regularly. "do something that gives you pleasure" is easily said if you've got a regular income. Even people who work nine-to-five in the games biz (more like nine-to-late, lol) who mod in their spare time might like to see a "thank you" in words or coin from time to time.

Also don't forget modders who work with a team, mostly working for free, who use the donations to pay their coders, composers and testers, or also just to say "thanks".

Softclocks wrote: This isn't your job. Nobody hired you. You're doing this out of your own free will.

Ynguatep wrote: Yes. But that does not prohibit me for accepting donations (sic! )
I merely had to note how ungrateful the games biz already is, and I would be deeply disappointed if the modding area turns out to be as ignorant towards modders as the biz is towards the people which make it possible. All of this here would not exist without modders. They mod not only for their fun, but for everyone's. To say "donations spoil the fun" sounds like "you did not earn a thanks". Well, thanks for that.
Mods are still free. If you don't want to or can't donate, don't do it. Nobody will be blamed for that.

endgameaddiction wrote: blah blah blah...


Seweryn, I agree with you on this. Modding is a humble hobby. It has been for a very very long time. But now people are demanding donations. Just as much as they did endorsement. The entitlement I swear. This place is the Facebook of modding. All these narcissistic people just feeling demanding, and if they don't get it, they throw a fit until they do get it. Not making enough, find a better job.

I'll spare the lecture. But yeah, these people wouldn't get a nickle out of me. Don't care how many hundreds of hours are put into the project. No one is holding a gun to their head and demanding it be made. Want money? Get a job.

Learn to read. The only person demanding anything here is you: demanding that you are the one to decide how other people have to work and define their hobbies in your humble opinion.

Sorry for demanding satisfaction (haha), I'm in the mood artsy people use to be in after a workday of 20 hrs nonstop.

[blackjackgarry]

 

Why not give an option if donating PayPal OR Bitcoin's?

 

 

And regarding your very well described points about the paid-modding, well, there's one major point to consider for Beth. - NOT USA/Canada/GB:

 

Here in germany this 'system' will fail, because the laws are completly different. And to say so, Beth will not be successfully in suiting you in cases like you uses an name (re. your fallout example). Eg. the name) 'Skyrim' is named 'Himmelsrand' here. This word/name (the translated one) cannot be a so called 'muster' or trademark. It's a common name/name combination. Same goes for most of such things.

And I think this situation is similar in a lot of other countries. (To say it directly: Who cares about US laws here!)

 

Also, the modding pages here cannot be brought down because they have mods. In such case's Beth would have to suit the modder itself and not the portal, and then Beth. MUST make clear that the modder has used re-engineered routines/codes/etc. They have to prove it - whitch is quite hard, if you use the CK :-)

We never had a law suit regarding such problems here, same goes for austria, swiss and other eu countries!

A.t.m. there's a complete team creating a full conversion for free; Remember the oblivion full-conversion mod :-) Well, you still need the org. game, but that's without question.

 

(A note: That's why you still can get the old morrowind-to-oblivion migration tool in some french places! Or with the 'stargate' morrowind mod years ago. It was still available even after MGM shut it down on planetselderscrolls.)

 

 

Still, payed modding - it will come, because it's a 'golden goose' for them.

They want to earn money out of the people for free, and without providing anythink. It's the same as the so called 'Play store's'. Lot's of People creating apps - and 'go...' or 'ap...' are earning without anything - well, that's it these days....

 

So this looks like a double-play by Beth.: Don't let others like Nexus start with a paid-system (where Beth cannot earn, and every payment goes to the modder), but in the back prepare an own one (where Beth. will have it's share).

[RGMage2]

Times change. We live in a problematic economy, many people are struggling to get by. Normally when people resort to cottage industry, and creative innovative ways to make a living they are lauded for their efforts. Here they are ridiculed. Reason? Not the entitlement of the one who does the work, but rather the entitlement of the one who is used to getting it for free, and sees this change as a threat to their continued privilege.

[JimboUK]

In response to post #28614939.

RGMage2 wrote:

Times change. We live in a problematic economy, many people are struggling to get by. Normally when people resort to cottage industry, and creative innovative ways to make a living they are lauded for their efforts. Here they are ridiculed. Reason? Not the entitlement of the one who does the work, but rather the entitlement of the one who is used to getting it for free, and sees this change as a threat to their continued privilege.

It's only mod makers who are struggling to get by? are users rolling in money? Let's turn this around, the entitlement might come from those who have walked into a long established community and then demanded that the community support them financially. Modders aren't poor hard done by victims, no one is forced to mod, feel used and abused? then close the CK/Geck/CS and the problem will go away.

My opposition to it comes from the fact that it will fundamentally change the way games are made just as micro transactions and DLC have. Developers aren't going to put a system of paid modding into place and then not adjust the game to push those paid mods at people, we already see it with the aforementioned micro transactions and DLC. Bethesda now have an incentive not to fix lesser bugs because they'll profit from community made bug fixes, they also have an incentive to include less content, again profiting from mods, this time adding content. And don't think they wouldn't do it, companies exist solely to part people from their money, Bethesda are no exception.