Why we can't use Patreon, and talking about donations and doing more to support mod authors

[Arodist]

I cannot donate. I wish I could. I wish I were in a first world country, with a decent income and the ability to invest money in such a creative hobby. But I'm not. Yet. However, and in light of some vitriolic answers I've had the displeasure of reading, I offer what I do have: immense respect and admiration to mod authors, for I have often found hidden treasures, from meshes and animation that seem painstakingly crafted, to acting and writing worthy of artistic recognition. Even when it's just silly or painfully dramatic, each mod is a different expression of how people like to play. And the act of playing, videogames or not, is a tragically underrated and necessary aspect of creativity and human expression.

 

Even though I respect different opinions, I believe mod authors deserve the opportunity to have a financial gain from such a labour. The best opportunity, and not the inherent right. Gaming is always a hot topic, maybe due to the configuration of its community and how it is viewed from the outside. But in my opinion, that doesn't matter. Mod authors are creators, drawn into such a hobby for as many differente reasons as there are people. And for creators, appreciation is everything. And when that is shown in a financial gain, it can be quite powerful, and most of all, deserved. Not everyone can pay a videogame. But, given an Internet connection, everyone can download a mod for a game they already have. That's quite beautiful, and I do hope I could express why I think so... but that's personal. Suffice to say such an endeavor deserves to be recognized, in whichever way it's possible. Even financial. Even if it's only words of encouragement.

 

I wish you all the best, mod authors. And I hope you end up being able to do whatever you want to do, and always be appreciated for that. And I hope you can find a system that will let you do what you love, whatever that is.

 

 

[CaptainCockerel]

In response to post #28619034. #28621904, #28622324, #28623984 are all replies on the same post.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: Also which mod authors are pushing you? I would like to know so I can ignore their mods.


Thanks

SparrowPrince wrote: Wow you are a bitter one. Is it a crime they want to get a bit more compensation for keeping Bethesda's games alive? Also, if you want to point fingers at me, I only recently enabled donations because I was asked by some of my users. That should say everything. My users are the best, and if they want to support me even further, then that is now their choice!

MrJoseCuervo wrote: Turning a $60 game into potentially a game that costs hundreds of dollars simply because some people are greedy is ridiculous.

Thanks for making mods, but if you look at it as a way to make money you are an enemy to gaming and deserve to be shunned.

If you want to make money, get a job, don't try to monetize gaming and ruining it for your own greed.

RefutableCow69 wrote: He isn't making you pay for mods.... He is giving people the OPTION to donate if they like the mod and want to support him in making more mods....

Don't go to the Youtube gaming side then whatever you do. The most subbed people there make so much bank out of messing around in games, it is their job. Now I don't mind that, but most go too far selling merchandise and taking money from publishers.

You are forgetting donations are a big drive for some. Not because they are greedy, but because they think 'Wow, I have made this person that happy, they have actually sent me a little money!' I can see how that would make you want to keep adding content on top of the drive from the odd comment or endorsement.

I also don't see how a new donation system could cost gamers more money. It is still totally optional. Now I have always said my content should be free, but if paid mods came back, I would add my content to that system. I would also host it for free on here, which would allow me to remove the donation buttons. If people want to support me, then they can buy the mod for a small sum. I think that would be fairer for everyone.

[Darole]

 

In response to post #28618554.

 

 

 

Darole wrote:

One thing I don't see mentioned, when discussing whether or not Bethesda can control the mods, is cost of the tools. Right now people can download the tools to make mods for free, but if Bethesda really wanted control/money from the modders they would charge for the tools.

So you can say they can't touch the modder or the mod, but that isn't necessarily true.

Worse, they could release updated versions of the tools for $$$ and then rescind the free license on the existing tools (had that happen to a community I was part of once).

 

People can make their own tools. As far as I know at least for Skyrim the only tool Bethesda has developed is Creation Kit the rest of the tools people use are all either made by the community (Nifskope, TES5Edit, BSAOpt) or have nothing to do with Skyrim itself (i.e. Blender, Gimp, Photoshop etc.)

 

And just how far would you get without the Creation Kit? What point would any of the other tools be without that one?

[silvershade56]

In response to post #28620544.

jpengenheiro2 wrote: Regarding the donations, I have no problem with it, I would prefer a more peer to peer system if it's available (Bitcoin!) instead of using paypal.

Regarding paying for mods I really think that it is a really bad ideia, simply because, people use many mods at a time that are not designed to work with each other, and when someone downloads a new mod there is no guarantee that it will be compatible or not cause a lot of problems in your game. If people were to pay for mods from now on, people would have the right to some sort of guarantee that the mods they bought would work for them, and also support. Would mod authors be willing to provide support for all users and their load orders? and for how long? Because right now mods are hosted on the Nexus long after authors stop providing support. Would anyone pay for a mod that they never tried and may never get support? also refund policy? Many doubts indeed.

Please don't read this as an attack on mod authors, because I have an enormous amount of respect for what they do. But this is not a simple "market" and anyone pushing for paid mods at this time is making a huge mistake in my opinion.

ya this here^ pretty much sums up my concerns

[gezegond]

In response to post #28625029.

Darole wrote:

 

In response to post #28618554.

Darole wrote:

One thing I don't see mentioned, when discussing whether or not Bethesda can control the mods, is cost of the tools. Right now people can download the tools to make mods for free, but if Bethesda really wanted control/money from the modders they would charge for the tools.
So you can say they can't touch the modder or the mod, but that isn't necessarily true.
Worse, they could release updated versions of the tools for $$$ and then rescind the free license on the existing tools (had that happen to a community I was part of once).

People can make their own tools. As far as I know at least for Skyrim the only tool Bethesda has developed is Creation Kit the rest of the tools people use are all either made by the community (Nifskope, TES5Edit, BSAOpt) or have nothing to do with Skyrim itself (i.e. Blender, Gimp, Photoshop etc.)

 

And just how far would you get without the Creation Kit? What point would any of the other tools be without that one?

Well, obviously so far nobody felt the need to have a creation kit like program since they would just use the creation kit I'm just saying people can make their own tools. If there was an incentive specially a financial one I can guarantee you would see one.

And other tools have plenty of points. Not all mods use creation kit if you didn't know. A lot of them do use it but only to a small degree they could get the same job done in TES5Edit even. I think the only big advantage creation kit has over TES5Edit is the WYSIWG 3D editor so unless the mod is a location mod they probably didn't even use creation kit all that much.

And really writing a 3D editor for Skyrim probably wouldnt even be that hard nobody ever did it so far because no one needed to. (Bethesda didn't push them to in other words)

[Ghatto]

In response to post #28622159.

simtam wrote:

 

Oh yeah there's just so many free skins in Counter Strike GO I can use.

 

Sounds like you feel entitled :ermm:

Sounds like the same 'flavour of the month' response to peoples concerns these days. How about actually forming an argument instead of an ad hominem.

I'm not entitled to free skins. What I am though is old enough to remember how FUN games like Counterstrike were with free skins, sprays, mods etc. Yeah most of it's still there: maps, modes and the like, but if I want to spray a funny pic? Pay. Want a different colour gun? Pay. Have a little music? Pay.

And really I can't stop the devs from doing that, but you did say
"For games where paid mods are allowed, there is - and it ever will be - a full spectrum of free mods, full-priced mods, discounted mods, free demo-versions of full payable mods, and so on - whatever price discrimination marketing invented."

and I gave an example of where there was no free version.

[mcguffin]

Donation was the hypocritical answer to the paid mod system in steam.

Players said, "dont sell mods, give us a way to donate."

What a joke.

 

Todays, around the internet, only containers get money:

Sell devices, you get everything.

Sell content, you are screwed.

Not only mod, but anything: music, arts, design, movies... anything that is content is screwed.

 

People says they can't give anything, but they have internet... and, here, a gaming computer.

The reality is that most people doesnt even bother to simply says something ("thank you" or an endorsement).

They just dont give a s#*! of anything

They take. Period.

 

 

 

[nurmi90]

Who get's what cut aside, I think it's sad that Steam didin't default all mods being free, with the option to actually pay for them.

 

No trickeries, no at your face 1st options, just secondary plz take my money button.

[a1021]

Maybe you should just share ad revenues and premium sales with mod authors.

[C0drm0nk33]

In response to post #28567949. #28568274, #28568494, #28571489, #28572304, #28575029, #28575269, #28593339, #28594674, #28596009, #28596734, #28602924, #28604599, #28614394, #28614759, #28620629, #28622439, #28622704 are all replies on the same post.

seweryn wrote: I really do not get the issue. So exactly do you want money ? Are you saying you cannot mod because are too bored ? Maybe you should stop modding then or take a break. Modding was always a hobby, something you do for fun or personal enjoyment, not something you do for living.
When i was a part of medieval brotherhood, when i was younger, there were a lot of cost involved it, cost of swords and armor, it cost some cash, traveling to tournaments, sometimes to different countries, but did this because i loved it and not becaused i was hoping for some cash, the moment i stoped having fun with it, i left; simple as that.
If you need to be paid to do mods then maybe you should stop doing it altogether, since it is clear you no longer have the love for it. Instead of something that gives you pleasure you want another revenue source.
If i were you i would just leave it and find something that gives you pleasure.

Xilandro wrote: You're clearly not a modder =D Want to know what modders think? Become one, and then - speak. No offence.

Ducksaws wrote: Just because I love my job means I don't deserve to get paid for the work??

DrakeTheDragon wrote: I wish people would stop repeatedly posting this nonsense when they don't know the harmful unintended implications it does have.

You cannot tell authors why they are modding or for what reasons. They do it for their own, whatever these are, and many authors think about it very differently. Trying to do so offends "many" authors in general every single time.

As you can't know why they started modding, you also can't tell them they should stop it. Reading you doing so "again" offends many authors, whether they're your target group or not.

I really wish people posting these would understand that in most cases it's the still free sharing authors rather taking up their suggestions instead and leaving, as these have absolutely nothing of value to loose by quitting, and the receiving end is making itself more and more not worth the time and effort, whereas the ones hoping for payment at some point will stay until it becomes clear they won't get it ever, which quite frankly will never happen as long as the companies themselves are still looking into it on a big scale.

Mod authors in a way are in many cases somewhat like a hive mind. Attack one and chances are really high many others, if not most, will feel attacked just as much, or at least really offended by "one of them" being attacked. Blanket statements made against some, the more blanket they are, the more authors in general they will hit, but mostly those "not" intended to get hit.

These people are doing lists, mind you, mentally or actually on paper, of all the s#*! they already had to take, whether personally or against mod authors in general, and how much more of it they still can take, before too much is too much. Every single time statements like this, and suggestions like "..., then you should just stop sharing your mods and do something else", pop up again somewhere in comments and these people see them, there goes another tally.

Everyone has a different limit, of course, but would you be an author, and able to read behind the curtains, where they discuss these things among themselves in private, you'd see how many have already quit and left over the community's reaction to the Steam paid mods attempt alone, or the comments made against the very idea of the work of these people being "worth anything", or how much they "should" be doing it "for the community" or they're "not doing it right", or better yet "shouldn't be doing it at all" to begin with. These all hit the mark, but mostly also with the wrong targets.

They hear you, they listen, they leave, or just stop sharing... but it's "not" (just) the ones you're talking to.

I'm seeing far too many of these popping up in comments recently, and considering their number is in direct relation to the number of free sharing authors quitting over it and similar things, it's by far not a pleasant picture.
I really wish they'd stop. But like all the others along the same ilk, they just won't.

So congratulations, for successfully removing yet another X mod authors and/or their mods and/or their knowledge, wisdom and expertise from the community, mostly free sharing ones at that.
(X here is not necessarily a whole number, but it's not unlikely to be >1 either, and at the end of the day, these are just summing up until the point whole numbers are reached again.)
Keep it coming, people, there's still some authors left!

Jafin16 wrote: Why don't you make a mod and try to support that mod? Then come back in 6 months and say the same. You won't. You're right, in general (but certainly not exclusively) modders make mods because they want to make them, whether for use in their game, because they like the process, it's practice for schooling or work (thinking 3D modelling here... and Falskaar which got the guy a job), and other reasons. However, the primary motivator for many is not sharing the mod and certainly not doing all the support necessary. Many (most?) mod authors share the mod out of the goodness of their heart... and then the requests, the inane, repetitive questions, the "this mod is crap" comments start coming in. Suddenly, instead of modding for fun, you're running tech support and, if you're generous, you might start helping people fix their computers they broke themselves in an effort to help them get your REALLY SIMPLE TO INSTALL AND USE MOD to work on their borked systems. After awhile, you might like it when someone sends you five bucks, or buys you a game on Steam or the like because you've been putting up with a ridiculous number of annoyances and abuse for your good hearted effort to share with the community... a community which very rarely gives back.

This is just one possible example why a donation might be nice once in awhile... even if it's just $5. You may respond with "Well if you don't like doing it, then maybe you shouldn't do it anymore!" Ok, all of the mod authors who would maybe like a donation once in awhile, even though they rarely if ever get them, will just take our mods down and use them ourselves. OH WAIT! You can't have that! Then you won't have any mods to use! See the problem with your thesis? It actually hurts the mod users more than the authors. The authors can make their own content. Those who are simply mod users, well they can't.

Ok, I'm done. *shuffles away*

seweryn wrote: All i get was backlash, but my question didn't get answered.
1. I tried to do some modding but it takes too much time and i prefer to do other things.
2. i was modding witcher 2, creating my own version of stats, difficulty, but i wasn't happy with the quality so i didn't release it.
3. I am not a programmer, graphic artist or designer; In truth i hate those things.
They are just not my cup of tea.

So could someone explain me why because i do not get it.
I want to understand this.

B1gBadDaddy wrote: You want to know why you don't enjoy modding? Probably the same reason you don't enjoy anything you don't do...

Arthmoor wrote: So tell me something. Are you saying that everyone who has a job necessarily must hate doing that job? Cause that's what it sounds like to me. That you shouldn't get paid to do something you love doing.

Though... that could explain why everyone is so miserable looking at their jobs. Maybe nobody really does like what they do for a living. Maybe it's these people who hate that they have to suffer and demand everyone else suffer along with them or it's not a valid way to make money. But no, that would be terribly cynical.

tl;dr: Thinks that give you pleasure can ALSO be sources of revenue.

Chesko wrote: seweryn - I don't want to make an argument for or against, but I think it's important to speak to your initial analogy, re: participation in a sport or group activity.

The important difference is that in that case, you are spending money and energy to bring enjoyment to yourself (and indirectly, your teammates or other association members) through participation. And especially in the case of a sport, all team members are (more or less) equal contributors. You're all putting in equal sweat, time, and money for "the love of the game/clan/group/etc". Shared commitment, shared resources, shared goals. Very "you and me, we're in this together".

Modders spend large amounts of time, and sometimes money, to bring enjoyment to a large number of people who do not spend any money and a trivial amount of time. There is less "we're in this together"-ness and more of a producer-consumer dynamic.

Can you imagine the Nexus, if the right to download mods was only granted if you had made one yourself? Even something incredibly "simple". Interesting to think how that might change not only how users think about modders and modding, but also how modders think about their users (who are now other modders, too). If every user were a modder, it would feel more like we're all in a big team, and that would certainly be something. This won't happen, but it's interesting to think about.

Galadreal wrote: @ Jafin16
THANK YOU!! my gods that was so accurate it was scary. Seriously, I started doing this as a hobby, but I get so damned sick and tired of trying to help troubleshoot because people cannot read the description, then say my mod broke their game because they cannot take less than 10 minute to read the damned page. Yes, if you see a bug, please let me know, I will be glad to fix it. If you can't move kids into your house because you just did not read the damned description then no, get lost, I have already answered that question on the front page, and 20 more times in the comments. If someone wanted me to buy me a frappachino for my work, I would be frigging elated.

I still enjoy modding, I still enjoy making stuff, I get so damned tired of criticism by people who have no idea how long or difficult it is, or who don't read directions. Or better yet, people who don't mod, but insist that they can tell you of their own great idea that you should drop everything that you are working on to do their project, because, they just don't understand how it works, or don't have time. Yeah...forget that. It is not, nor has it ever been about making money. But if someone wanted to be nice and say, "you know, I really appreciate the 1000+ hours you spent on these things, I would like to buy you a cup of coffee." I would be ecstatic, I really would. Endorsements are nice, they say "hey, I saw you mod, tried it out, and it enjoyed it." but if it is one of your MUST HAVE mods, one that you cannot play Skyrim without having, then why not throw a little extra something towards the authors who made it that much better? They have not asked, it is just a nice thing to do.

Ynguatep wrote: What Ducksaws wrote is a common thing you get to hear as a dev in the games business. Sad, but true. You got your dream job, don't whine about money. Believe me this can spoil the dream job completely.

This is why I believe that mod donations are a sign of respect. You can't earn actual money by modding, you'll hardly get your time paid (exceptions may happen). I see this, as Patreon and donations of this kind in general, as a revival of the almost extinct support for artists named after Maecenas. Pay an artist if you want something special, donate to them if you like their art. Or mods. Games are art, after all.

To tell an artist, or anyone else who adds to cultural wealth without getting paid, that taking donations is evil, is to tell them to starve. It is also a sign of appreciation. Basically, you call modder's work worthless, or them worthless 'cause they "spoil" it by monetary issues. Each modder can decide for themselves whether they want donations or not. Some won't need it, some might be happy to be rewarded.
Try to earn your living with art and / or making games for a while. I do, and wasn't even able to afford a gambison, not even speaking about chainmail or traveling to medieval reenactment events regularly. "do something that gives you pleasure" is easily said if you've got a regular income. Even people who work nine-to-five in the games biz (more like nine-to-late, lol) who mod in their spare time might like to see a "thank you" in words or coin from time to time.

Also don't forget modders who work with a team, mostly working for free, who use the donations to pay their coders, composers and testers, or also just to say "thanks".

Softclocks wrote: This isn't your job. Nobody hired you. You're doing this out of your own free will.

Ynguatep wrote: Yes. But that does not prohibit me for accepting donations (sic! )
I merely had to note how ungrateful the games biz already is, and I would be deeply disappointed if the modding area turns out to be as ignorant towards modders as the biz is towards the people which make it possible. All of this here would not exist without modders. They mod not only for their fun, but for everyone's. To say "donations spoil the fun" sounds like "you did not earn a thanks". Well, thanks for that.
Mods are still free. If you don't want to or can't donate, don't do it. Nobody will be blamed for that.

endgameaddiction wrote: blah blah blah...


Seweryn, I agree with you on this. Modding is a humble hobby. It has been for a very very long time. But now people are demanding donations. Just as much as they did endorsement. The entitlement I swear. This place is the Facebook of modding. All these narcissistic people just feeling demanding, and if they don't get it, they throw a fit until they do get it. Not making enough, find a better job.

I'll spare the lecture. But yeah, these people wouldn't get a nickle out of me. Don't care how many hundreds of hours are put into the project. No one is holding a gun to their head and demanding it be made. Want money? Get a job.

Ynguatep wrote: Learn to read. The only person demanding anything here is you: demanding that you are the one to decide how other people have to work and define their hobbies in your humble opinion.

Sorry for demanding satisfaction (haha), I'm in the mood artsy people use to be in after a workday of 20 hrs nonstop.

Ghatto wrote: Everyone look. Seweryn isn't trying to tell people what to think or feel, or have you guys explain about whether you want to be paid for what you love or if you deserve to be. The confusion comes from wanting to understand the TRANSITION: as in how many modders who are all of a sudden pro-payment when they appeared happy to do so for free before.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: Your greed will only make piracy more common and you will still end up not getting paid for your hobby.

Galadreal wrote: He sound very hostile in his question of this though. The manner with which he poses the question is off-putting. Regardless, I tried to answer this earlier. Most modders do it because they enjoy it, but they are not opposed to people giving them something to show appreciation, even if is is just a thanks in the form of coffee money (I always use that idea, but that is because I am caffeine powered). The whole point is not necessarily that people want to be paid full time for modding, just that they resent the backlash of the paid modding fiasco and being told that they do not deserve to be paid. When someone puts in a lot of time on something, hobby or no, they want to at least be acknowledge for their hard work, that can come in the form of endorsements, positive comments, or if someone wants to throw them a little cash, that is also cool, but not something they have to have. It is just a nice way of showing that you appreciate if they take the time and effort to do something you enjoy.
The real problem comes in with people like seweryn who then accuse modders of just trying to make money, when they have clearly been releasing free stuff for years, they were never in it to make money, but when the opportunity presented itself to take something they have put time and sometimes their own money into, then yes, several of them took it. It is not about a sudden transition to being pro-payment, it is about people wanting to be acknowledged for their hard work. And all the harassment some of them received when they did got a legitimate business offer to do paid mods.
I have spent over 2000 hours working in the creation kit, about half of that was on one mod, learning, creating, tweaking, and bug fixes. I did not ask for anything in return, but if someone wanted to do something, I would appreciate it. That is not new, there has been no major transition, except that several people are yelling "Entitlement" on both sides, modders and non-modders alike. This whole process stirred up one heck of a hornets nest, and created many bad feelings all around. Mod authors feeling abused, mod users feeling abused. And no one is about to let go of that.
And while I don't expect to be paid for my hobby (none of my stuff is that good), some people who turn out amazing and game changing mods were badly abused when they tried to actually follow a proposed business model put forth by the game developers. Some received death threats...how messed up is that? They are feeling somewhat betrayed, and most of them are not asking outright for money after the project failed, but they are not opposed to someone showing them appreciation by offering a donation either.

Seeing a lot on morons making the blanket statements that an improved donation system will somehow cost them money. Mod authors aren't forcing anyone to give them money for their mods. They are just wanting those who enjoy their mods to "consider" donating and making it easier for those users who wish to, be able to donate.
A lot of mod authors would like more time to make improvements to their mods, improvements that could/would benefit the modding community but work and other real life commitments preclude that.