Why we can't use Patreon, and talking about donations and doing more to support mod authors

[okroulek]

In response to post #28661979.

CardTaken wrote: Legality aside, the issue with mod authors *asking* for donations is all in the quality. There is a small percentage of mods that are *almost* on par with an officially released/supported game. But most are not anywhere near that realm of quality.

Most mods offer:
A) No support
B) No (or limited) bug fixes
C) No (or limited) accounting for compatibility

This is not meant as an insult to mod authors. There is a lot of work done that I really respect and has given me tons of extra hours of gameplay, especially in Skyrim, which seems to be the biggest one of all for modding.

But I am already iffy about dropping $20 bucks on a game that might turn out to be crap and that's from *professional and paid* developers, whose entire livelihood depends on both releasing and supporting a quality product.

So sure, legality aside, if I really really like a really really well-put-together mod, I might be apt to support it. But I'm not rich and I have enough trouble deciding what games to throw money at. I know the pain of doing creative stuff for no reward, but to me, the lack of money in modding is a big part of what makes it work. There is no obligation of quality, so people can learn as they go and enjoy what is provided.

Well said.

[okroulek]

In response to post #28655914. #28656504 is also a reply to the same post.

sheson wrote:

 

In response to post #28651299.

DorkDiva wrote: How is this still even a thing? Should it really be a thing at all? Would it not be better to let it lay quietly so the modding world and the ones modding can get back to normal, at least to some degree? The purity and fun of modding has been tainted because of all of this stuff. I think time out should be taken for things to heal up. At least a little. Seeing people cry about compensation for mods they made and worked on... what? Never have I ever made a mod with any sense of entitlement or dollar as a goal.

Sure, and I can confirm this, time, emotion, passion, heart, love and more go into creating mods. But if one is serious about getting paid for making something for games, perhaps go to school and get a job in the industry? Making mods should be fun, for sharing with friends, making things more fun...just plain old fun in general, not crazy serious with dollar signs as a goal. Honestly this is saddening and painful to see and read. What happened to fun? Where did it go? Maybe we all should go and find it! I thought that is why we played games, and modded for them? Not for a hunger for donations or "paid modding"...

Money should have no place in modding, at all. Ever. Period.

It just dose not feel...right. I don't know.

Maybe I am over reacting but it feels wrong.

Damn, open your eyes,
Modding already generate money, yes free mods can generate money.

Websites like this one, holding mods, make money (ads, memberships) they are companies, not individuals. It's a business.

Youtubers, writers, make money doing mod showcases (ads again)
Bethesda himself make money
- selling more games for a longer time period.
- recycling modders ideas without ever giving something in return.
And even Paypal take his toll for each donation

The only ones who are not even allowed to take some bucks or to say something are the ones who allow this business by providing free contents and making free support...the modders themselves.

And we are the ones considered as greed ?

 

 

I fail to see how anyone is strong armed creating something for free so others can get rich?

macintroll wrote: I'm not sure to understand what you mean ?

If you want a seat at the economic table, go work as one of the aforementioned types of industry programmers, marketing specialists, etc. Modding, that is the creation of modded content, is not a professional gaming role. The users have showed no interest in paying for what has in the past been free content. If that should change, I for one, would simply create my own mods ,for personal use, using the same tools. I don't spend but maybe $150 a year on gaming products. None of that would go towards paying for mods when I could get whole games instead. I love mods, and I appreciate the hard work people put forth to produce these mods, but I'm with CardTaken on this one.

[Darole]

... There is a small percentage of mods that are *almost* on par with an officially released/supported game. But most are not anywhere near that realm of quality.

I would say that there is a percentage of mods that are well above what was released as the game, in quality and content.

This is the very reason why mods exist, because people saw shortcomings in the game and sought to improve upon what the game itself had to offer.

 

[frostsmith]

In response to post #28661979. #28662279 is also a reply to the same post.

CardTaken wrote: Legality aside, the issue with mod authors *asking* for donations is all in the quality. There is a small percentage of mods that are *almost* on par with an officially released/supported game. But most are not anywhere near that realm of quality.

Most mods offer:
A) No support
B) No (or limited) bug fixes
C) No (or limited) accounting for compatibility

This is not meant as an insult to mod authors. There is a lot of work done that I really respect and has given me tons of extra hours of gameplay, especially in Skyrim, which seems to be the biggest one of all for modding.

But I am already iffy about dropping $20 bucks on a game that might turn out to be crap and that's from *professional and paid* developers, whose entire livelihood depends on both releasing and supporting a quality product.

So sure, legality aside, if I really really like a really really well-put-together mod, I might be apt to support it. But I'm not rich and I have enough trouble deciding what games to throw money at. I know the pain of doing creative stuff for no reward, but to me, the lack of money in modding is a big part of what makes it work. There is no obligation of quality, so people can learn as they go and enjoy what is provided.

okroulek wrote: Well said.

I think those points are the best to bring up in this subject. I know plenty of people will just say, "Well, they are getting paid, so they will work harder and longer on said mod." Yet, something inside me tells me that won't really be the case. In fact, the more you make, the more lazier you can be.

If anything, likes should be counted towards a system where modders can turn in likes for prizes or whatever.

[axonis]

Many people here don't seem to get it. This isn't a discussion about premium modding. This is coming, whether they like it or not. This is a discussion about helping the Nexus keep AAA modders here. So, if you feel that you owe something to Dark0ne and the rest, then give them your support by

 

1) Shutting up your drivel against creators who want to sell their products.

2) Try to think of ways to keep those creators happy by flowing donations.

3) Donate, if you can.

[Shrutesh]

Well its possible like Beth are gonna be implementing their own Paid system after Fallout 4, especially considering how they have announced mods for the PS4/XBO... as long as they keep it to OPTIONAL donations it should be fine.

 

I know many of us mod just because we enjoy it (more than actually playing the game itself) and while being paid would be nice, its not something we expect since we would have made the exact same mod anyway whether or not we were sharing it with other people.

 

Then of course there are the really talented and dedicated modders who make the huge/complex mods that certainly deserve more than $2 a year... the challenge here is giving these people more visibility while keeping the people who ask for $100 donations for an apple to a minimum.. well unless its a really GOOD apple ofc. ;)

[Arthmoor]

In response to post #28661979. #28662279, #28663669 are all replies on the same post.

CardTaken wrote: Legality aside, the issue with mod authors *asking* for donations is all in the quality. There is a small percentage of mods that are *almost* on par with an officially released/supported game. But most are not anywhere near that realm of quality.

Most mods offer:
A) No support
B) No (or limited) bug fixes
C) No (or limited) accounting for compatibility

This is not meant as an insult to mod authors. There is a lot of work done that I really respect and has given me tons of extra hours of gameplay, especially in Skyrim, which seems to be the biggest one of all for modding.

But I am already iffy about dropping $20 bucks on a game that might turn out to be crap and that's from *professional and paid* developers, whose entire livelihood depends on both releasing and supporting a quality product.

So sure, legality aside, if I really really like a really really well-put-together mod, I might be apt to support it. But I'm not rich and I have enough trouble deciding what games to throw money at. I know the pain of doing creative stuff for no reward, but to me, the lack of money in modding is a big part of what makes it work. There is no obligation of quality, so people can learn as they go and enjoy what is provided.

okroulek wrote: Well said.

frostsmith wrote: I think those points are the best to bring up in this subject. I know plenty of people will just say, "Well, they are getting paid, so they will work harder and longer on said mod." Yet, something inside me tells me that won't really be the case. In fact, the more you make, the more lazier you can be.

If anything, likes should be counted towards a system where modders can turn in likes for prizes or whatever.

The market will decide in cases like this. If a paid mod is of mediocre quality, and the author refuses to fix bugs or provide even minimal support, people will stop buying it once word spreads.

I would draw the line at demanding mod authors maintain wide compatibility. That just isn't possible in a lot of cases and people will simply need to choose which mods they use. It honestly isn't anyone's duty, paid or otherwise, to assure that one mod is compatible with every other. So if this is truly THAT important, reward those authors who try to keep it in mind with what they write, and don't expect them to bend too far if what they wrote is fundamentally incompatible. IE: Don't get upset with people if you want 2 city mods and you can't have them because they both do the same things in different ways and neither author wants to deal with making patches etc. Have sense enough to know you simply can't use them both.

Even the developers don't generally pay heed to this. DLC is well known to stomp on stuff, and while it's apparent Bethesda did TRY not to stomp on everyone, they made some changes that clearly don't get along with a few older mods.

[Arthmoor]

In response to post #28655914. #28656504, #28662504 are all replies on the same post.

sheson wrote:

 

In response to post #28651299.

DorkDiva wrote: How is this still even a thing? Should it really be a thing at all? Would it not be better to let it lay quietly so the modding world and the ones modding can get back to normal, at least to some degree? The purity and fun of modding has been tainted because of all of this stuff. I think time out should be taken for things to heal up. At least a little. Seeing people cry about compensation for mods they made and worked on... what? Never have I ever made a mod with any sense of entitlement or dollar as a goal.

Sure, and I can confirm this, time, emotion, passion, heart, love and more go into creating mods. But if one is serious about getting paid for making something for games, perhaps go to school and get a job in the industry? Making mods should be fun, for sharing with friends, making things more fun...just plain old fun in general, not crazy serious with dollar signs as a goal. Honestly this is saddening and painful to see and read. What happened to fun? Where did it go? Maybe we all should go and find it! I thought that is why we played games, and modded for them? Not for a hunger for donations or "paid modding"...

Money should have no place in modding, at all. Ever. Period.

It just dose not feel...right. I don't know.

Maybe I am over reacting but it feels wrong.

Damn, open your eyes,
Modding already generate money, yes free mods can generate money.

Websites like this one, holding mods, make money (ads, memberships) they are companies, not individuals. It's a business.

Youtubers, writers, make money doing mod showcases (ads again)
Bethesda himself make money
- selling more games for a longer time period.
- recycling modders ideas without ever giving something in return.
And even Paypal take his toll for each donation

The only ones who are not even allowed to take some bucks or to say something are the ones who allow this business by providing free contents and making free support...the modders themselves.

And we are the ones considered as greed ?

 

 

I fail to see how anyone is strong armed creating something for free so others can get rich?

macintroll wrote: I'm not sure to understand what you mean ?

okroulek wrote: If you want a seat at the economic table, go work as one of the aforementioned types of industry programmers, marketing specialists, etc. Modding, that is the creation of modded content, is not a professional gaming role. The users have showed no interest in paying for what has in the past been free content. If that should change, I for one, would simply create my own mods ,for personal use, using the same tools. I don't spend but maybe $150 a year on gaming products. None of that would go towards paying for mods when I could get whole games instead. I love mods, and I appreciate the hard work people put forth to produce these mods, but I'm with CardTaken on this one.

Actually, the users HAVE shown interest. $25K worth in 2 days even. Expand that out to a monthly thing, and you can see that this isn't going to go away, and the minority (vocal as they may be) opposed to this simply aren't going to stop it in the end.

People whined about DLC when Bethesda first dropped that bomb on the market. Barely anyone makes a peep now. People whined about microtransactions in MMOs. It's the norm now. People whined about the hat market in TF2. Clearly that settled down, and is making serious money according to Valve. The same will hold true for paid mods. Some people are whining. Given enough time, it will be the norm.

The silent majority who pay for these things will just do so and ignore pretty much everything said about it. I'd wager most of them aren't even aware there was a debate about any of the things I mentioned. They number in the millions. They are the target audience.

In the immortal words of Agent Smith:

[Kraynic]

I was traveling during the whole paid mod fiasco, and it was all over when I returned home and was reading some of the news (and following comments) on this site. There seemed to be a lot of animosity between some mod authors and users. Some mods and authors disappeared. And now it has all come round again, it seems like. I had a few thoughts (worthwhile or not).

 

First, there seem to be some that are angered at Dark0ne. Almost as if there is a belief that this site is something that can be run on a shoestring budget, so that any advertisement revenue should be going to mod authors. I didn't check back before starting to type this up, but I believe there have been posts in the past that talked about expenses. This is not a cheap enterprise, and then you have people like me. I finally responded to the ad placeholders that ask you to donate $2 for site upkeep to help replace lost ad revenue. Anyone that expects advertisement to pay needs to keep people like me in mind that don't turn off adblock and noscript for very many places at all. I have never seen the ads on this site. Ever. There are probably others who never bothered to pay the $2 to support the site.

 

Second, I wonder if people are thinking of the impact of monetizing mods. Even if you are just going for donations instead of straight up pay to use, cooperation will most likely be affected. For the most part, assets seem to be shared fairly freely here. If profit is tied in to having people using your mod, why would you be willing to share and have someone else perhaps make a more popular mod that incorporates yours that has the chance to dry up your money flow? I am thinking here of mods like IA, IJ, and LotD which are much more than borrowed work, but do incorporate other work than just done by the releasing author. Would mod authors start wanting "donations" from another author wanting to incorporate their work in another mod, or perhaps refuse to share at all?

 

Third, will donations be seen as mandatory, and who will determine what size a donation should be? Would it be frowned upon to donate less to "The Paarthurnax Dilemma" than to "Falskaar"? Will people be called out by mod authors for not donating enough? (I am unsure if incoming donations would be able to be tracked or anonymous, so maybe that wouldn't be a problem.) Some people have thrown out $5-$10 as being a good range, and that would be fine if you just run a few mods. That is awful spendy if you are running many at all.

 

And fourth, how much of the "community" will survive this? I suppose this thread is a vocal minority, but there is a fair amount of hate here. Go ahead, and scroll down through the comments. I haven't read them all and don 't intend to. From reading here, you can get the impression that all mod users are lazy idiots, and all mod authors are greedy bloodsuckers. Maybe some are. It will probably be best for all if we could do without the name calling.

 

I am not a mod author and am very unlikely to become one. I am (currently, can't spend too long doing one thing) an electrician that would be spending a lot more time on my music and leatherwork if it wasn't for mod authors. I have run a heavily modded game through wine on linux without any of the fancy tools other platforms enjoy, and have had some fun just learning how the files get used since I do everything manually. That being said, there is a limit or trade off on fun and expense.

 

I can guarantee you that as mods get monetized (I'm assuming it will happen), if I stick around using mods, that I will be paying attention to the character of mod authors as portrayed in their posts. After all, why send support to anyone you don't like/respect? Although I guess that can go both ways with mod authors removing mods as has already happened to some degree. Still, another angle for people to think about.

 

Mod users wouldn't have mods without the mod authors, but mod authors wouldn't have a (potentially paying) market without mod users. I believe both groups should command a little respect as a result. And... that is enough rambling from this lazy idiot of a mod user.

[CynicalDriver]

In response to post #28668749.

Kraynic wrote: I was traveling during the whole paid mod fiasco, and it was all over when I returned home and was reading some of the news (and following comments) on this site. There seemed to be a lot of animosity between some mod authors and users. Some mods and authors disappeared. And now it has all come round again, it seems like. I had a few thoughts (worthwhile or not).

First, there seem to be some that are angered at Dark0ne. Almost as if there is a belief that this site is something that can be run on a shoestring budget, so that any advertisement revenue should be going to mod authors. I didn't check back before starting to type this up, but I believe there have been posts in the past that talked about expenses. This is not a cheap enterprise, and then you have people like me. I finally responded to the ad placeholders that ask you to donate $2 for site upkeep to help replace lost ad revenue. Anyone that expects advertisement to pay needs to keep people like me in mind that don't turn off adblock and noscript for very many places at all. I have never seen the ads on this site. Ever. There are probably others who never bothered to pay the $2 to support the site.

Second, I wonder if people are thinking of the impact of monetizing mods. Even if you are just going for donations instead of straight up pay to use, cooperation will most likely be affected. For the most part, assets seem to be shared fairly freely here. If profit is tied in to having people using your mod, why would you be willing to share and have someone else perhaps make a more popular mod that incorporates yours that has the chance to dry up your money flow? I am thinking here of mods like IA, IJ, and LotD which are much more than borrowed work, but do incorporate other work than just done by the releasing author. Would mod authors start wanting "donations" from another author wanting to incorporate their work in another mod, or perhaps refuse to share at all?

Third, will donations be seen as mandatory, and who will determine what size a donation should be? Would it be frowned upon to donate less to "The Paarthurnax Dilemma" than to "Falskaar"? Will people be called out by mod authors for not donating enough? (I am unsure if incoming donations would be able to be tracked or anonymous, so maybe that wouldn't be a problem.) Some people have thrown out $5-$10 as being a good range, and that would be fine if you just run a few mods. That is awful spendy if you are running many at all.

And fourth, how much of the "community" will survive this? I suppose this thread is a vocal minority, but there is a fair amount of hate here. Go ahead, and scroll down through the comments. I haven't read them all and don 't intend to. From reading here, you can get the impression that all mod users are lazy idiots, and all mod authors are greedy bloodsuckers. Maybe some are. It will probably be best for all if we could do without the name calling.

I am not a mod author and am very unlikely to become one. I am (currently, can't spend too long doing one thing) an electrician that would be spending a lot more time on my music and leatherwork if it wasn't for mod authors. I have run a heavily modded game through wine on linux without any of the fancy tools other platforms enjoy, and have had some fun just learning how the files get used since I do everything manually. That being said, there is a limit or trade off on fun and expense.

I can guarantee you that as mods get monetized (I'm assuming it will happen), if I stick around using mods, that I will be paying attention to the character of mod authors as portrayed in their posts. After all, why send support to anyone you don't like/respect? Although I guess that can go both ways with mod authors removing mods as has already happened to some degree. Still, another angle for people to think about.

Mod users wouldn't have mods without the mod authors, but mod authors wouldn't have a (potentially paying) market without mod users. I believe both groups should command a little respect as a result. And... that is enough rambling from this lazy idiot of a mod user.

I wouldn't call it rambling, I would call it sensible.
I also missed the whole paid mod fiasco, because I was working too much to really pay any attention to my games or their mods/modding communities. I am not a vocal member of this site at all, but I have used countless mods from here over the course of the past four years and I have seen what you are talking about.

Yes, a lot of users are idiots and could solve most of their problems by simply reading instructions or submitting proper bug reports. That said, there are authors who are helpful and others who are not. We all need each other; after all, why make mods if nobody is going to use them?

Very well said, and I agree on every single point.