Why we can't use Patreon, and talking about donations and doing more to support mod authors

[Lisnpuppy]

 

In response to post #28677409.

 

 

 

Lisnpuppy wrote:

In response to post #28671324.

 

 

 

Lisnpuppy wrote:

Here is what I believe and this is not my thoughts or wishes but what we know.

Mods will be monetized. That will be done through Beth's own new and shiny site as they want the piece of the pie. it will not be donations-make no mistake. The donation system here at the Nexus is different and separate from the Beth.net. Will they still allow donations after that time? We don't know. Will Beth get involved in pricing? Again, we don't know. Will Beth or anyone be accountable for mod quality? We do not know. If the mod is freely shared there is really no expectations on anyone's part beyond release. If you may for something, regardless of how minimal the amount...then having standards are nice.

Will Beth allow for The Nexus and free modding to continue-I think yes to a point. I believe if you release a mod there, for the money, you can not go and put it up free elsewhere. If you want to share it free, I don't think they will stop that...at least not in the foreseeable future.

Will Beth allow modders to have things like the Patreon? I doubt it, again this is about making money.

As for the entire question of should modders get paid, want to be paid, are they evil-succubus worshiping people if they do...

I know how hard it is to make any kind of mod at all. Just learning the necessary skills takes time and sometimes money. Being of the staff side of this place I have see exactly how the mod authors are often treated about their mods. As to how good they are, what they "should" have done, the "hey bro, make it exactly like I say and I might toss you an endoresement."

I think of it like this, it would be nice if this stayed free forever-but it isn't going to and I am shocked it lasted so long. But mods are a bit of an art form. Like being able to paint or draw or whatever. Maybe you don't have a "job" doing this-it is a hobby. People offer you the ability to get a bit of money for doing some work. Then maybe you can put your painting in your friend's craft store to sell with a few bucks going their way. Its a bit of cash but nothing to live on. Maybe you still do some free stuff for friends. Still today ever little dollar helps, right?

Will I be able to afford the amount of mods I currently have-I very much doubt it. I can't afford a great many things but I don;t abuse people for trying to make money off their talent. Just because I maybe would not or so-and-so doesn't, I won't begrudge them one damn dime. Everyone will have to decide for themselves what they can or can not accept.

Regardless I won't call mod authors out for it. I won't think of them as less for it, or more for it either. It just IS. It will happen and there are just not enough folks against it to do that anyway. Add to the console modding and there is already a mindset there for buying things and microtransactions. If all the PC people stopped playing it really wouldn't make Beth loose much sleep-and why is that? Because the people that decide such things are trying to make money. That is why paid modding will happen. Not becuase Beth wants to do a good-deed to modders. Not because they want to screw over the little man. It is how capitalism works. You see a need, you provide that need and make money to go do other fun things with.

The only thing all these conversations of who is right and wrong and the how dare you-the only thing they are doing is making modding a whole less fun. I am not going to live someone's life and tell them what to do. I got three kids for that *har!* If you don't want to participate in paid modding then don't, you don't want to pay for mods, then don't. You want to put free mods out-then do and awesome. But stop behaving worse that bossy little children who think they know what motivates people or thinks they know how it all should work and demands that it be thus. Have a bit of decorum and kindness. If you can't say something nice then just don't say anything.

Sorry brah, but while I respect your opinion and your well-constructed post - I'm still gonna be critical of stuff I don't agree with. If we all just stayed silent on negative change then we'd all just get steamrolled. I mean think about it man: if I like Skyrim mods and enjoy coming to the website every day seeing what amazing new things people have made, appreciating the community built here around sharing and helping each other to all build their own personal perfect version of Skyrim, why would I want to see that change for the worse? Why wouldn't I show my disappointment, or provide my criticism for broken systems?

Yeah I don't have to be abusive to the modders, a lot of people are assholes, and a lot more were just full-on seeing red. I do think most people agree that modders were not the bad guys here, but alas - this event required them to be willful participants in something some people would love and others would hate.

 

If this whole controversy didn't begin then there'd be no fighting. Bethesda and Valve built the ring and put the money in the middle.

Well..1st I am not a "brah". I am female, hear me roar. yes I am like the unicorn and fairies-a real female on the internet. lol

That aside if you disagree by all means, fight the good fight. I don't think you will stand much chance but have at it. I don't have issue with that. What I have issue with is the pure venom on either side of this where modders who would may take advantage of what Beth offers is a snake and people that disagree with that are morons. If I had a magic wand I would make it so it was beautiful and free and all modders had enough money from other things so they did not have to or even want to change it. I would make capitalist more compassionate and all be gamers slobbering over the wonderful mods and all games would be made perfect from the start.

Will I continue to buy Beth games (or anyone) who go where I have personally drawn my line in the sand? Maybe not.

My exception when I said if you can not say anything nice spoke to this-not the disagreement itself (though this thread is really off topic at this point.)

Some folks don't try to say the good or bad of this, they just call others that disagree names. Construct a good argument, talk about what other companies do or don't do, industry standards, where paid content works and where it does not. Don't say folks are greedy for taking one path and put others up on a pedestal that do not. I fail to understand why people get out the pitchforks on something like this or anything else. One can present a compelling argument and agree to disagree without any name calling, personal insults or making wide generalizations on things of which they can not know (and I am talking to the thread at whole here not individuals.)

The Nexus has had donations in place for YEARS. This isn't new. The new is trying to see how people could more easily donate. There are very strict rules in place as Robin said, and if a file is discovered/reported that goes against said rules then the moderation team will act accordingly. It is however only by Beth's grace that the donations are allowed at all-because they used to not be.

So I prepare myself for the future. I know when it comes it will likely be a hot mess. I don't have to have Fallout 4 immediately or even immediately when the GECK comes. I got a jar of change I am filling up for mods that I may wish to buy or to authors to whom I wish to donate. If I can't afford something..so be it.

I also think it would be more productive to discuss that paid modding will happen and how Beth can do it RIGHT this time. Instead of saying it is evil and trying to beat it away with a stick-what would be the best way to handle it. Come up with good, supported discussion on that-and maybe they will take notice. Continuing to throw out the baby with the bathwater probably won't do much good on either side.

Haha. Sorry about the colloquial generalism.

 

I do agree that the abuse and vitriol isn't required. I suppose I'm just not surprised it's there, especially since everybodies actions end up communicating an ideology that may or may not be their true attitude or opinion, yet there's nothing else to attack if people have been tripped into raging bull mode (super easy on the Internet).

 

And yeah I get that I'm some kind of fuddy-duddy for refusing to get with the times and accept that a mod-shop is coming. The thing is though, how can I productively discuss how best to do a mod-shop when I simply don't want it to happen?

 

 

 

I think looking into it and those things I spoke about. The last time this happened Beth and Valve really, IMO, handled things badly. How could paid modding be handled better? More fairly? How can Beth and/or the mod makers assure quality of mods without it being a like a bunch of monkeys throwing poo at everyone? If you think to yourself, Under what conditions could I deal with paid modding and fashion a good argument from there. I mean if I was someone in charge and Beth and saw how many of these posts looked, I would turn off the computer and go do my thing. We are (should be) adults that are capable of stating our displeasure without acting like we are six.

 

 

In response to post #28663749. #28664219, #28665004, #28665334, #28675154, #28676099, #28680064 are all replies on the same post.

 

 

 

axonis wrote: Many people here don't seem to get it. This isn't a discussion about premium modding. This is coming, whether they like it or not. This is a discussion about helping the Nexus keep AAA modders here. So, if you feel that you owe something to Dark0ne and the rest, then give them your support by

 

1) Shutting up your drivel against creators who want to sell their products.

2) Try to think of ways to keep those creators happy by flowing donations.

3) Donate, if you can.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: Greedy modders can take a hike. If they want to try and make a living modding good luck with that because it will not happen.

 

Real modders will continue to make mods and get exposure for their talents.

 

Mods are not a requirement. If you want to spend hours working on something then attempt to charge for it, then hardly anyone will see your work or it will just pirated from you. You are just peeing into the wind.

Galadreal wrote: Wow, you just totally missed the point of the previous comment, didn't you? I mean seriously, I have seen your other posts on here, and I can only guess that you are just here for the trolling. And while I think everyone is allowed to their opinions, this is not a place for trolls. Please remove your hands from the keyboard unless you actually have something constructive to contribute.

 

Oh, wait, I'm sorry, you don't contribute anything, you don't have any mods that you share with people, and you only have 26 posts, most of which I think are on this thread. So yeah...I don't actually care what you have to say.

 

Edited: to try to be less angry...and FAILED. I am still angry.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: I see, you don't care about the people who use your content.

 

That is obvious since you want to join the corporate goons and destroy modding as we know it with the hopes of getting money.

 

Lets see what mods you have done.

 

One adds more food to Inn keepers inventory.

 

The other adds more beds to homes

 

Your final mod add a general stores chest to certain location.

 

Hardly anything ground breaking or original. Do you think you would make money with that?

 

No you wont. You are just helping to drag down modding and are suffering from delusions of grandeur.

 

And just because I do not agree with you and entertain your greedy dreams does not make me a troll.

Ghatto wrote: What makes you think sites like this will survive should big business actually succeed in turning out paid mods?

Zaldiir wrote: There will always be games with free modding.

Ghatto wrote: True. That does however just throw away criticism of the games that don't.

Paid modding doesn't have to happen. Bethesda cannot sell what modders don't make. If the only way to share mods is by swapping cash through bethesda.net then I will not mod for Fallout 4.

I am not delusional enough to think my few thousand downloads for old games makes a difference in the grand scheme of things but if everyone who felt similarly did the same it might. Personally I feel there's a better chance at getting a third season of Jericho by flooding CBS with truckloads of nuts again than there is staving off paid mods permanently because of the damage the first go-round did to the community.

 

 

Paid modding didn't damage this community. WE all damaged this community. Tossing our anger at Beth and Valve (though in a better way) would have been understandable. Hanging our fellow mod makers and mod "users" out to dry is what tore this community up. It happened all at once and most people did not get a lot of notice about it all. Ok it is understandable that people would be pissy. But nobody pushes that send button on a post but that person. No one Valve or Beth comes to your door and forces one to write a post so full on venom people are still swollen and green from it.

 

We have some time (abet not much) to think about it and if you feel strongly one way or another then again, express oneself in a productive way. One has to look no further than this thread to see how things can go straight into the crapper rather quickly.

 

Look, I am not telling everyone to drink the kool-aid here. However we as PC users have, by in large, a different mindset about modding that folks that don't play PC games or modded games. Though there are more PC users than I think most people say-we still are a very small part of the pie. Perhaps if you and all the modders didn't mod it would give Beth pause-that would never happen as part of the modding community wants this to happen in one way or another. Then if all the console modders just even say-make simple texture replacers, simple armors, god-items...people WILL happily buy it. Look at the minecraft textures on Xbox and you can see that. If it didn't make money it wouldn't be there.

 

So you can decide, I am not making any mods at all even if there is paid and free modding. I will make free mods but protest and not make paid ones. I will make both mods but still protest. Or you can try to engage Beth and everyone else in a way that works towards some common goals. A way to perhaps own more of this rather than just throwing down and going home. Work on a way that it can become the RIGHT way to do things (and there are gonna be issue folks, when this comes out-so calm oneself and try to fix things not yell loudly.) Maybe we can't stop the train but perhaps we can lay down some tracks for a direction it can go.

[CamonnaTong]

In response to post #28684264.

Lisnpuppy wrote:

 

In response to post #28677409.

Lisnpuppy wrote:

In response to post #28671324.

Lisnpuppy wrote:

Here is what I believe and this is not my thoughts or wishes but what we know.

Mods will be monetized. That will be done through Beth's own new and shiny site as they want the piece of the pie. it will not be donations-make no mistake. The donation system here at the Nexus is different and separate from the Beth.net. Will they still allow donations after that time? We don't know. Will Beth get involved in pricing? Again, we don't know. Will Beth or anyone be accountable for mod quality? We do not know. If the mod is freely shared there is really no expectations on anyone's part beyond release. If you may for something, regardless of how minimal the amount...then having standards are nice.

Will Beth allow for The Nexus and free modding to continue-I think yes to a point. I believe if you release a mod there, for the money, you can not go and put it up free elsewhere. If you want to share it free, I don't think they will stop that...at least not in the foreseeable future.

Will Beth allow modders to have things like the Patreon? I doubt it, again this is about making money.

As for the entire question of should modders get paid, want to be paid, are they evil-succubus worshiping people if they do...

I know how hard it is to make any kind of mod at all. Just learning the necessary skills takes time and sometimes money. Being of the staff side of this place I have see exactly how the mod authors are often treated about their mods. As to how good they are, what they "should" have done, the "hey bro, make it exactly like I say and I might toss you an endoresement."

I think of it like this, it would be nice if this stayed free forever-but it isn't going to and I am shocked it lasted so long. But mods are a bit of an art form. Like being able to paint or draw or whatever. Maybe you don't have a "job" doing this-it is a hobby. People offer you the ability to get a bit of money for doing some work. Then maybe you can put your painting in your friend's craft store to sell with a few bucks going their way. Its a bit of cash but nothing to live on. Maybe you still do some free stuff for friends. Still today ever little dollar helps, right?

Will I be able to afford the amount of mods I currently have-I very much doubt it. I can't afford a great many things but I don;t abuse people for trying to make money off their talent. Just because I maybe would not or so-and-so doesn't, I won't begrudge them one damn dime. Everyone will have to decide for themselves what they can or can not accept.

Regardless I won't call mod authors out for it. I won't think of them as less for it, or more for it either. It just IS. It will happen and there are just not enough folks against it to do that anyway. Add to the console modding and there is already a mindset there for buying things and microtransactions. If all the PC people stopped playing it really wouldn't make Beth loose much sleep-and why is that? Because the people that decide such things are trying to make money. That is why paid modding will happen. Not becuase Beth wants to do a good-deed to modders. Not because they want to screw over the little man. It is how capitalism works. You see a need, you provide that need and make money to go do other fun things with.

The only thing all these conversations of who is right and wrong and the how dare you-the only thing they are doing is making modding a whole less fun. I am not going to live someone's life and tell them what to do. I got three kids for that *har!* If you don't want to participate in paid modding then don't, you don't want to pay for mods, then don't. You want to put free mods out-then do and awesome. But stop behaving worse that bossy little children who think they know what motivates people or thinks they know how it all should work and demands that it be thus. Have a bit of decorum and kindness. If you can't say something nice then just don't say anything.

Sorry brah, but while I respect your opinion and your well-constructed post - I'm still gonna be critical of stuff I don't agree with. If we all just stayed silent on negative change then we'd all just get steamrolled. I mean think about it man: if I like Skyrim mods and enjoy coming to the website every day seeing what amazing new things people have made, appreciating the community built here around sharing and helping each other to all build their own personal perfect version of Skyrim, why would I want to see that change for the worse? Why wouldn't I show my disappointment, or provide my criticism for broken systems?
Yeah I don't have to be abusive to the modders, a lot of people are assholes, and a lot more were just full-on seeing red. I do think most people agree that modders were not the bad guys here, but alas - this event required them to be willful participants in something some people would love and others would hate.

If this whole controversy didn't begin then there'd be no fighting. Bethesda and Valve built the ring and put the money in the middle.

Well..1st I am not a "brah". I am female, hear me roar. yes I am like the unicorn and fairies-a real female on the internet. lol

That aside if you disagree by all means, fight the good fight. I don't think you will stand much chance but have at it. I don't have issue with that. What I have issue with is the pure venom on either side of this where modders who would may take advantage of what Beth offers is a snake and people that disagree with that are morons. If I had a magic wand I would make it so it was beautiful and free and all modders had enough money from other things so they did not have to or even want to change it. I would make capitalist more compassionate and all be gamers slobbering over the wonderful mods and all games would be made perfect from the start.

Will I continue to buy Beth games (or anyone) who go where I have personally drawn my line in the sand? Maybe not.

My exception when I said if you can not say anything nice spoke to this-not the disagreement itself (though this thread is really off topic at this point.)

Some folks don't try to say the good or bad of this, they just call others that disagree names. Construct a good argument, talk about what other companies do or don't do, industry standards, where paid content works and where it does not. Don't say folks are greedy for taking one path and put others up on a pedestal that do not. I fail to understand why people get out the pitchforks on something like this or anything else. One can present a compelling argument and agree to disagree without any name calling, personal insults or making wide generalizations on things of which they can not know (and I am talking to the thread at whole here not individuals.)

The Nexus has had donations in place for YEARS. This isn't new. The new is trying to see how people could more easily donate. There are very strict rules in place as Robin said, and if a file is discovered/reported that goes against said rules then the moderation team will act accordingly. It is however only by Beth's grace that the donations are allowed at all-because they used to not be.

So I prepare myself for the future. I know when it comes it will likely be a hot mess. I don't have to have Fallout 4 immediately or even immediately when the GECK comes. I got a jar of change I am filling up for mods that I may wish to buy or to authors to whom I wish to donate. If I can't afford something..so be it.

I also think it would be more productive to discuss that paid modding will happen and how Beth can do it RIGHT this time. Instead of saying it is evil and trying to beat it away with a stick-what would be the best way to handle it. Come up with good, supported discussion on that-and maybe they will take notice. Continuing to throw out the baby with the bathwater probably won't do much good on either side.

Haha. Sorry about the colloquial generalism.

I do agree that the abuse and vitriol isn't required. I suppose I'm just not surprised it's there, especially since everybodies actions end up communicating an ideology that may or may not be their true attitude or opinion, yet there's nothing else to attack if people have been tripped into raging bull mode (super easy on the Internet).

And yeah I get that I'm some kind of fuddy-duddy for refusing to get with the times and accept that a mod-shop is coming. The thing is though, how can I productively discuss how best to do a mod-shop when I simply don't want it to happen?

 

 

 

I think looking into it and those things I spoke about. The last time this happened Beth and Valve really, IMO, handled things badly. How could paid modding be handled better? More fairly? How can Beth and/or the mod makers assure quality of mods without it being a like a bunch of monkeys throwing poo at everyone? If you think to yourself, Under what conditions could I deal with paid modding and fashion a good argument from there. I mean if I was someone in charge and Beth and saw how many of these posts looked, I would turn off the computer and go do my thing. We are (should be) adults that are capable of stating our displeasure without acting like we are six.

 

 

In response to post #28663749. #28664219, #28665004, #28665334, #28675154, #28676099, #28680064 are all replies on the same post.

axonis wrote: Many people here don't seem to get it. This isn't a discussion about premium modding. This is coming, whether they like it or not. This is a discussion about helping the Nexus keep AAA modders here. So, if you feel that you owe something to Dark0ne and the rest, then give them your support by

1) Shutting up your drivel against creators who want to sell their products.
2) Try to think of ways to keep those creators happy by flowing donations.
3) Donate, if you can.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: Greedy modders can take a hike. If they want to try and make a living modding good luck with that because it will not happen.

Real modders will continue to make mods and get exposure for their talents.

Mods are not a requirement. If you want to spend hours working on something then attempt to charge for it, then hardly anyone will see your work or it will just pirated from you. You are just peeing into the wind.

Galadreal wrote: Wow, you just totally missed the point of the previous comment, didn't you? I mean seriously, I have seen your other posts on here, and I can only guess that you are just here for the trolling. And while I think everyone is allowed to their opinions, this is not a place for trolls. Please remove your hands from the keyboard unless you actually have something constructive to contribute.

Oh, wait, I'm sorry, you don't contribute anything, you don't have any mods that you share with people, and you only have 26 posts, most of which I think are on this thread. So yeah...I don't actually care what you have to say.

Edited: to try to be less angry...and FAILED. I am still angry.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: I see, you don't care about the people who use your content.

That is obvious since you want to join the corporate goons and destroy modding as we know it with the hopes of getting money.

Lets see what mods you have done.

One adds more food to Inn keepers inventory.

The other adds more beds to homes

Your final mod add a general stores chest to certain location.

Hardly anything ground breaking or original. Do you think you would make money with that?

No you wont. You are just helping to drag down modding and are suffering from delusions of grandeur.

And just because I do not agree with you and entertain your greedy dreams does not make me a troll.

Ghatto wrote: What makes you think sites like this will survive should big business actually succeed in turning out paid mods?

Zaldiir wrote: There will always be games with free modding.

Ghatto wrote: True. That does however just throw away criticism of the games that don't.

Paid modding doesn't have to happen. Bethesda cannot sell what modders don't make. If the only way to share mods is by swapping cash through bethesda.net then I will not mod for Fallout 4.
I am not delusional enough to think my few thousand downloads for old games makes a difference in the grand scheme of things but if everyone who felt similarly did the same it might. Personally I feel there's a better chance at getting a third season of Jericho by flooding CBS with truckloads of nuts again than there is staving off paid mods permanently because of the damage the first go-round did to the community.

 

 

Paid modding didn't damage this community. WE all damaged this community. Tossing our anger at Beth and Valve (though in a better way) would have been understandable. Hanging our fellow mod makers and mod "users" out to dry is what tore this community up. It happened all at once and most people did not get a lot of notice about it all. Ok it is understandable that people would be pissy. But nobody pushes that send button on a post but that person. No one Valve or Beth comes to your door and forces one to write a post so full on venom people are still swollen and green from it.

 

We have some time (abet not much) to think about it and if you feel strongly one way or another then again, express oneself in a productive way. One has to look no further than this thread to see how things can go straight into the crapper rather quickly.

 

Look, I am not telling everyone to drink the kool-aid here. However we as PC users have, by in large, a different mindset about modding that folks that don't play PC games or modded games. Though there are more PC users than I think most people say-we still are a very small part of the pie. Perhaps if you and all the modders didn't mod it would give Beth pause-that would never happen as part of the modding community wants this to happen in one way or another. Then if all the console modders just even say-make simple texture replacers, simple armors, god-items...people WILL happily buy it. Look at the minecraft textures on Xbox and you can see that. If it didn't make money it wouldn't be there.

 

So you can decide, I am not making any mods at all even if there is paid and free modding. I will make free mods but protest and not make paid ones. I will make both mods but still protest. Or you can try to engage Beth and everyone else in a way that works towards some common goals. A way to perhaps own more of this rather than just throwing down and going home. Work on a way that it can become the RIGHT way to do things (and there are gonna be issue folks, when this comes out-so calm oneself and try to fix things not yell loudly.) Maybe we can't stop the train but perhaps we can lay down some tracks for a direction it can go.

I definitely agree. In my opinion, the worst thing about paid mods wasn't the paid mods themselves, it was us, the community, and how we acted. No one should have been treated like how certain modders were treated. I used to be fairly active in the modding community, and then the whole paid mods thing happened. It wasn't paid mods that drove me away. It was the community and how much hate, flaming, and other things that were spewing around.

I obviously know it wasn't everyone that did this. I just wish, everyone could have acted rational about the whole things. Companies would much rather listen to nice fans, than rude fans. They usually ignore the rude fans.

I can see several things happening out of paid mods personally. One thing is that there will be more paid mods "jokesters", but this can be dealt with a better system. "Jokesters" are ones who will leave a mod buggy on purpose, mess your game up with it, and so on. I honestly can see more people fully dedicating themselves to a mod, and making an expansion size mod because of this. I can see more quality mods, among other things. What really matters the most with this system is those that are the "jokesters" will be dealt with. Another thing is illegal and copyrighted content, but many don't realize this has been a thing before Steam Workshop. It needs to stop, but it's hard to deal with the international ones.

In the long run, I don't really want paid mods mainly due to how the community acted.

[axonis]

In response to post #28663749. #28664219, #28665004, #28665334, #28675154, #28676099, #28680064, #28683254 are all replies on the same post.

axonis wrote: Many people here don't seem to get it. This isn't a discussion about premium modding. This is coming, whether they like it or not. This is a discussion about helping the Nexus keep AAA modders here. So, if you feel that you owe something to Dark0ne and the rest, then give them your support by

1) Shutting up your drivel against creators who want to sell their products.
2) Try to think of ways to keep those creators happy by flowing donations.
3) Donate, if you can.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: Greedy modders can take a hike. If they want to try and make a living modding good luck with that because it will not happen.

Real modders will continue to make mods and get exposure for their talents.

Mods are not a requirement. If you want to spend hours working on something then attempt to charge for it, then hardly anyone will see your work or it will just pirated from you. You are just peeing into the wind.

Galadreal wrote: Wow, you just totally missed the point of the previous comment, didn't you? I mean seriously, I have seen your other posts on here, and I can only guess that you are just here for the trolling. And while I think everyone is allowed to their opinions, this is not a place for trolls. Please remove your hands from the keyboard unless you actually have something constructive to contribute.

Oh, wait, I'm sorry, you don't contribute anything, you don't have any mods that you share with people, and you only have 26 posts, most of which I think are on this thread. So yeah...I don't actually care what you have to say.

Edited: to try to be less angry...and FAILED. I am still angry.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: I see, you don't care about the people who use your content.

That is obvious since you want to join the corporate goons and destroy modding as we know it with the hopes of getting money.

Lets see what mods you have done.

One adds more food to Inn keepers inventory.

The other adds more beds to homes

Your final mod add a general stores chest to certain location.

Hardly anything ground breaking or original. Do you think you would make money with that?

No you wont. You are just helping to drag down modding and are suffering from delusions of grandeur.

And just because I do not agree with you and entertain your greedy dreams does not make me a troll.

Ghatto wrote: What makes you think sites like this will survive should big business actually succeed in turning out paid mods?

Zaldiir wrote: There will always be games with free modding.

Ghatto wrote: True. That does however just throw away criticism of the games that don't.

bethjunkie wrote: Paid modding doesn't have to happen. Bethesda cannot sell what modders don't make. If the only way to share mods is by swapping cash through bethesda.net then I will not mod for Fallout 4.
I am not delusional enough to think my few thousand downloads for old games makes a difference in the grand scheme of things but if everyone who felt similarly did the same it might. Personally I feel there's a better chance at getting a third season of Jericho by flooding CBS with truckloads of nuts again than there is staving off paid mods permanently because of the damage the first go-round did to the community.

I don't think that will happen. I feel that Bethesda knows that repeating TSR's mistake in controlling fan-made content with lawyers is very bad for business in the role playing genre.

But provide a platform where content authors can sell their creations if they wish to ? Yes, I think that's perfectly sensible. In the worst case, they could start selling their authoring software. I hope this won't happen, but even if it does, it won't be the end of the world.

[phellen]

axonis wrote: I don't think that will happen. I feel that Bethesda knows that repeating TSR's mistake in controlling fan-made content with lawyers is very bad for business in the role playing genre.

But provide a platform where content authors can sell their creations if they wish to ? Yes, I think that's perfectly sensible. In the worst case, they could start selling their authoring software. I hope this won't happen, but even if it does, it won't be the end of the world.

Taken from Bethesda.net, (regarding Fallout4)

"Early next year we’ll release for free the new Creation Kit for the PC. This is the same tool we use in the studio. You'll be able to create your own mods and share them with others. We’re especially excited these same mods will then be coming to Xbox One, and then PlayStation 4."

[Ghatto]

In response to post #28684264. #28685414 is also a reply to the same post.

Lisnpuppy wrote:

 

In response to post #28677409.

Lisnpuppy wrote:

In response to post #28671324.

Lisnpuppy wrote:

Here is what I believe and this is not my thoughts or wishes but what we know.

Mods will be monetized. That will be done through Beth's own new and shiny site as they want the piece of the pie. it will not be donations-make no mistake. The donation system here at the Nexus is different and separate from the Beth.net. Will they still allow donations after that time? We don't know. Will Beth get involved in pricing? Again, we don't know. Will Beth or anyone be accountable for mod quality? We do not know. If the mod is freely shared there is really no expectations on anyone's part beyond release. If you may for something, regardless of how minimal the amount...then having standards are nice.

Will Beth allow for The Nexus and free modding to continue-I think yes to a point. I believe if you release a mod there, for the money, you can not go and put it up free elsewhere. If you want to share it free, I don't think they will stop that...at least not in the foreseeable future.

Will Beth allow modders to have things like the Patreon? I doubt it, again this is about making money.

As for the entire question of should modders get paid, want to be paid, are they evil-succubus worshiping people if they do...

I know how hard it is to make any kind of mod at all. Just learning the necessary skills takes time and sometimes money. Being of the staff side of this place I have see exactly how the mod authors are often treated about their mods. As to how good they are, what they "should" have done, the "hey bro, make it exactly like I say and I might toss you an endoresement."

I think of it like this, it would be nice if this stayed free forever-but it isn't going to and I am shocked it lasted so long. But mods are a bit of an art form. Like being able to paint or draw or whatever. Maybe you don't have a "job" doing this-it is a hobby. People offer you the ability to get a bit of money for doing some work. Then maybe you can put your painting in your friend's craft store to sell with a few bucks going their way. Its a bit of cash but nothing to live on. Maybe you still do some free stuff for friends. Still today ever little dollar helps, right?

Will I be able to afford the amount of mods I currently have-I very much doubt it. I can't afford a great many things but I don;t abuse people for trying to make money off their talent. Just because I maybe would not or so-and-so doesn't, I won't begrudge them one damn dime. Everyone will have to decide for themselves what they can or can not accept.

Regardless I won't call mod authors out for it. I won't think of them as less for it, or more for it either. It just IS. It will happen and there are just not enough folks against it to do that anyway. Add to the console modding and there is already a mindset there for buying things and microtransactions. If all the PC people stopped playing it really wouldn't make Beth loose much sleep-and why is that? Because the people that decide such things are trying to make money. That is why paid modding will happen. Not becuase Beth wants to do a good-deed to modders. Not because they want to screw over the little man. It is how capitalism works. You see a need, you provide that need and make money to go do other fun things with.

The only thing all these conversations of who is right and wrong and the how dare you-the only thing they are doing is making modding a whole less fun. I am not going to live someone's life and tell them what to do. I got three kids for that *har!* If you don't want to participate in paid modding then don't, you don't want to pay for mods, then don't. You want to put free mods out-then do and awesome. But stop behaving worse that bossy little children who think they know what motivates people or thinks they know how it all should work and demands that it be thus. Have a bit of decorum and kindness. If you can't say something nice then just don't say anything.

Sorry brah, but while I respect your opinion and your well-constructed post - I'm still gonna be critical of stuff I don't agree with. If we all just stayed silent on negative change then we'd all just get steamrolled. I mean think about it man: if I like Skyrim mods and enjoy coming to the website every day seeing what amazing new things people have made, appreciating the community built here around sharing and helping each other to all build their own personal perfect version of Skyrim, why would I want to see that change for the worse? Why wouldn't I show my disappointment, or provide my criticism for broken systems?
Yeah I don't have to be abusive to the modders, a lot of people are assholes, and a lot more were just full-on seeing red. I do think most people agree that modders were not the bad guys here, but alas - this event required them to be willful participants in something some people would love and others would hate.

If this whole controversy didn't begin then there'd be no fighting. Bethesda and Valve built the ring and put the money in the middle.

Well..1st I am not a "brah". I am female, hear me roar. yes I am like the unicorn and fairies-a real female on the internet. lol

That aside if you disagree by all means, fight the good fight. I don't think you will stand much chance but have at it. I don't have issue with that. What I have issue with is the pure venom on either side of this where modders who would may take advantage of what Beth offers is a snake and people that disagree with that are morons. If I had a magic wand I would make it so it was beautiful and free and all modders had enough money from other things so they did not have to or even want to change it. I would make capitalist more compassionate and all be gamers slobbering over the wonderful mods and all games would be made perfect from the start.

Will I continue to buy Beth games (or anyone) who go where I have personally drawn my line in the sand? Maybe not.

My exception when I said if you can not say anything nice spoke to this-not the disagreement itself (though this thread is really off topic at this point.)

Some folks don't try to say the good or bad of this, they just call others that disagree names. Construct a good argument, talk about what other companies do or don't do, industry standards, where paid content works and where it does not. Don't say folks are greedy for taking one path and put others up on a pedestal that do not. I fail to understand why people get out the pitchforks on something like this or anything else. One can present a compelling argument and agree to disagree without any name calling, personal insults or making wide generalizations on things of which they can not know (and I am talking to the thread at whole here not individuals.)

The Nexus has had donations in place for YEARS. This isn't new. The new is trying to see how people could more easily donate. There are very strict rules in place as Robin said, and if a file is discovered/reported that goes against said rules then the moderation team will act accordingly. It is however only by Beth's grace that the donations are allowed at all-because they used to not be.

So I prepare myself for the future. I know when it comes it will likely be a hot mess. I don't have to have Fallout 4 immediately or even immediately when the GECK comes. I got a jar of change I am filling up for mods that I may wish to buy or to authors to whom I wish to donate. If I can't afford something..so be it.

I also think it would be more productive to discuss that paid modding will happen and how Beth can do it RIGHT this time. Instead of saying it is evil and trying to beat it away with a stick-what would be the best way to handle it. Come up with good, supported discussion on that-and maybe they will take notice. Continuing to throw out the baby with the bathwater probably won't do much good on either side.

Haha. Sorry about the colloquial generalism.

I do agree that the abuse and vitriol isn't required. I suppose I'm just not surprised it's there, especially since everybodies actions end up communicating an ideology that may or may not be their true attitude or opinion, yet there's nothing else to attack if people have been tripped into raging bull mode (super easy on the Internet).

And yeah I get that I'm some kind of fuddy-duddy for refusing to get with the times and accept that a mod-shop is coming. The thing is though, how can I productively discuss how best to do a mod-shop when I simply don't want it to happen?

 

 

 

I think looking into it and those things I spoke about. The last time this happened Beth and Valve really, IMO, handled things badly. How could paid modding be handled better? More fairly? How can Beth and/or the mod makers assure quality of mods without it being a like a bunch of monkeys throwing poo at everyone? If you think to yourself, Under what conditions could I deal with paid modding and fashion a good argument from there. I mean if I was someone in charge and Beth and saw how many of these posts looked, I would turn off the computer and go do my thing. We are (should be) adults that are capable of stating our displeasure without acting like we are six.

 

 

In response to post #28663749. #28664219, #28665004, #28665334, #28675154, #28676099, #28680064 are all replies on the same post.

axonis wrote: Many people here don't seem to get it. This isn't a discussion about premium modding. This is coming, whether they like it or not. This is a discussion about helping the Nexus keep AAA modders here. So, if you feel that you owe something to Dark0ne and the rest, then give them your support by

1) Shutting up your drivel against creators who want to sell their products.
2) Try to think of ways to keep those creators happy by flowing donations.
3) Donate, if you can.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: Greedy modders can take a hike. If they want to try and make a living modding good luck with that because it will not happen.

Real modders will continue to make mods and get exposure for their talents.

Mods are not a requirement. If you want to spend hours working on something then attempt to charge for it, then hardly anyone will see your work or it will just pirated from you. You are just peeing into the wind.

Galadreal wrote: Wow, you just totally missed the point of the previous comment, didn't you? I mean seriously, I have seen your other posts on here, and I can only guess that you are just here for the trolling. And while I think everyone is allowed to their opinions, this is not a place for trolls. Please remove your hands from the keyboard unless you actually have something constructive to contribute.

Oh, wait, I'm sorry, you don't contribute anything, you don't have any mods that you share with people, and you only have 26 posts, most of which I think are on this thread. So yeah...I don't actually care what you have to say.

Edited: to try to be less angry...and FAILED. I am still angry.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: I see, you don't care about the people who use your content.

That is obvious since you want to join the corporate goons and destroy modding as we know it with the hopes of getting money.

Lets see what mods you have done.

One adds more food to Inn keepers inventory.

The other adds more beds to homes

Your final mod add a general stores chest to certain location.

Hardly anything ground breaking or original. Do you think you would make money with that?

No you wont. You are just helping to drag down modding and are suffering from delusions of grandeur.

And just because I do not agree with you and entertain your greedy dreams does not make me a troll.

Ghatto wrote: What makes you think sites like this will survive should big business actually succeed in turning out paid mods?

Zaldiir wrote: There will always be games with free modding.

Ghatto wrote: True. That does however just throw away criticism of the games that don't.

Paid modding doesn't have to happen. Bethesda cannot sell what modders don't make. If the only way to share mods is by swapping cash through bethesda.net then I will not mod for Fallout 4.
I am not delusional enough to think my few thousand downloads for old games makes a difference in the grand scheme of things but if everyone who felt similarly did the same it might. Personally I feel there's a better chance at getting a third season of Jericho by flooding CBS with truckloads of nuts again than there is staving off paid mods permanently because of the damage the first go-round did to the community.

 

 

Paid modding didn't damage this community. WE all damaged this community. Tossing our anger at Beth and Valve (though in a better way) would have been understandable. Hanging our fellow mod makers and mod "users" out to dry is what tore this community up. It happened all at once and most people did not get a lot of notice about it all. Ok it is understandable that people would be pissy. But nobody pushes that send button on a post but that person. No one Valve or Beth comes to your door and forces one to write a post so full on venom people are still swollen and green from it.

 

We have some time (abet not much) to think about it and if you feel strongly one way or another then again, express oneself in a productive way. One has to look no further than this thread to see how things can go straight into the crapper rather quickly.

 

Look, I am not telling everyone to drink the kool-aid here. However we as PC users have, by in large, a different mindset about modding that folks that don't play PC games or modded games. Though there are more PC users than I think most people say-we still are a very small part of the pie. Perhaps if you and all the modders didn't mod it would give Beth pause-that would never happen as part of the modding community wants this to happen in one way or another. Then if all the console modders just even say-make simple texture replacers, simple armors, god-items...people WILL happily buy it. Look at the minecraft textures on Xbox and you can see that. If it didn't make money it wouldn't be there.

 

So you can decide, I am not making any mods at all even if there is paid and free modding. I will make free mods but protest and not make paid ones. I will make both mods but still protest. Or you can try to engage Beth and everyone else in a way that works towards some common goals. A way to perhaps own more of this rather than just throwing down and going home. Work on a way that it can become the RIGHT way to do things (and there are gonna be issue folks, when this comes out-so calm oneself and try to fix things not yell loudly.) Maybe we can't stop the train but perhaps we can lay down some tracks for a direction it can go.

Camonna Tong wrote: I definitely agree. In my opinion, the worst thing about paid mods wasn't the paid mods themselves, it was us, the community, and how we acted. No one should have been treated like how certain modders were treated. I used to be fairly active in the modding community, and then the whole paid mods thing happened. It wasn't paid mods that drove me away. It was the community and how much hate, flaming, and other things that were spewing around.

I obviously know it wasn't everyone that did this. I just wish, everyone could have acted rational about the whole things. Companies would much rather listen to nice fans, than rude fans. They usually ignore the rude fans.

I can see several things happening out of paid mods personally. One thing is that there will be more paid mods "jokesters", but this can be dealt with a better system. "Jokesters" are ones who will leave a mod buggy on purpose, mess your game up with it, and so on. I honestly can see more people fully dedicating themselves to a mod, and making an expansion size mod because of this. I can see more quality mods, among other things. What really matters the most with this system is those that are the "jokesters" will be dealt with. Another thing is illegal and copyrighted content, but many don't realize this has been a thing before Steam Workshop. It needs to stop, but it's hard to deal with the international ones.

In the long run, I don't really want paid mods mainly due to how the community acted.

Well I'll just have to politely disagree then.

It sounds like you want things to move in a very specific way, but if you ask me there is no 'right' way... there's just too many varaibles. As evidenced by these discussions there's just so many people with different opinions and biases, no way we can expect everyone to behave or react the same.
Yeah we can act like 'adults' as long as the definition of 'adult' reaches a consensus - which it won't. And that's discounting the fact that what we talk about and what results we want will actually be different for each person.

In my case, while I do think personal insults and abuse are bad, I don't think brazen angry criticism is bad. I mean I just don't think a big corp like Bethesda would care if customers like me voiced my displeasure in just a stern "no I don't like that mister."

Obvious then that I don't agree that the community ruined itself. Reading mod pages here for years showed me that posters who are willing to argue and abuse each other are always there. Only now forces that were controlled by neither modders or users brought a new paradigm that would no doubt be utterly and completely divisive. No surprise, as it competence would forever more change the face of modern game modding and specifically websites like this one.
What I mean is, I believe that even if everyone on this website was 'adult' and didn't turn this into a crapfight - it still would have crumbled into a mess thanks to the nature of the problem.

[Ghatto]

In response to post #28683919.

CandyGrl24 wrote: Ok, let's talk frankly. 70 percent of all existing today mods are rubbish (especially for Skyrim). Why? Because people, who can create a good product, do not want to work for free. Why should they?
Just because you want it? Open your eyes, guys.

About ideas... We can not sell mods, but we can sell models — it is our right and nobody can prevent. Think about it.

False Correlation.
Just because some modders say they'll make more quality mods when paid does not mean it will be the same for everyone.

Just look at Mobile App Stores and the glut of crap on them; a perfect example of what will still happen when money's left on the table.

[macintroll]

In response to post #28663749. #28664219, #28665004, #28665334, #28675154, #28676099, #28680064, #28683254, #28685979, #28688519 are all replies on the same post.

axonis wrote: Many people here don't seem to get it. This isn't a discussion about premium modding. This is coming, whether they like it or not. This is a discussion about helping the Nexus keep AAA modders here. So, if you feel that you owe something to Dark0ne and the rest, then give them your support by

1) Shutting up your drivel against creators who want to sell their products.
2) Try to think of ways to keep those creators happy by flowing donations.
3) Donate, if you can.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: Greedy modders can take a hike. If they want to try and make a living modding good luck with that because it will not happen.

Real modders will continue to make mods and get exposure for their talents.

Mods are not a requirement. If you want to spend hours working on something then attempt to charge for it, then hardly anyone will see your work or it will just pirated from you. You are just peeing into the wind.

Galadreal wrote: Wow, you just totally missed the point of the previous comment, didn't you? I mean seriously, I have seen your other posts on here, and I can only guess that you are just here for the trolling. And while I think everyone is allowed to their opinions, this is not a place for trolls. Please remove your hands from the keyboard unless you actually have something constructive to contribute.

Oh, wait, I'm sorry, you don't contribute anything, you don't have any mods that you share with people, and you only have 26 posts, most of which I think are on this thread. So yeah...I don't actually care what you have to say.

Edited: to try to be less angry...and FAILED. I am still angry.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: I see, you don't care about the people who use your content.

That is obvious since you want to join the corporate goons and destroy modding as we know it with the hopes of getting money.

Lets see what mods you have done.

One adds more food to Inn keepers inventory.

The other adds more beds to homes

Your final mod add a general stores chest to certain location.

Hardly anything ground breaking or original. Do you think you would make money with that?

No you wont. You are just helping to drag down modding and are suffering from delusions of grandeur.

And just because I do not agree with you and entertain your greedy dreams does not make me a troll.

Ghatto wrote: What makes you think sites like this will survive should big business actually succeed in turning out paid mods?

Zaldiir wrote: There will always be games with free modding.

Ghatto wrote: True. That does however just throw away criticism of the games that don't.

bethjunkie wrote: Paid modding doesn't have to happen. Bethesda cannot sell what modders don't make. If the only way to share mods is by swapping cash through bethesda.net then I will not mod for Fallout 4.
I am not delusional enough to think my few thousand downloads for old games makes a difference in the grand scheme of things but if everyone who felt similarly did the same it might. Personally I feel there's a better chance at getting a third season of Jericho by flooding CBS with truckloads of nuts again than there is staving off paid mods permanently because of the damage the first go-round did to the community.

axonis wrote: I don't think that will happen. I feel that Bethesda knows that repeating TSR's mistake in controlling fan-made content with lawyers is very bad for business in the role playing genre.

But provide a platform where content authors can sell their creations if they wish to ? Yes, I think that's perfectly sensible. In the worst case, they could start selling their authoring software. I hope this won't happen, but even if it does, it won't be the end of the world.

phellen wrote:

axonis wrote: I don't think that will happen. I feel that Bethesda knows that repeating TSR's mistake in controlling fan-made content with lawyers is very bad for business in the role playing genre.

But provide a platform where content authors can sell their creations if they wish to ? Yes, I think that's perfectly sensible. In the worst case, they could start selling their authoring software. I hope this won't happen, but even if it does, it won't be the end of the world.

Taken from Bethesda.net, (regarding Fallout4)

"Early next year we’ll release for free the new Creation Kit for the PC. This is the same tool we use in the studio. You'll be able to create your own mods and share them with others. We’re especially excited these same mods will then be coming to Xbox One, and then PlayStation 4."

"We’re especially excited these same mods will then be coming to Xbox One, and then PlayStation 4."
Weird...Is it me or i see here a "Bethesda controlled" mods store?
I'm not a console user, so who can explain me How these mods will be Downloaded, installed and managed on a console ??
So far each console has his own included store (playstationstore, xbox store) does this mean mods will ONLY be downloaded from thoses stores ?

A step before paid mods ?
And what about the nexus ? can it be possible to make a nexus for consoles ??

[CamonnaTong]

In response to post #28663749. #28664219, #28665004, #28665334, #28675154, #28676099, #28680064, #28683254, #28685979, #28688519, #28692194 are all replies on the same post.

axonis wrote: Many people here don't seem to get it. This isn't a discussion about premium modding. This is coming, whether they like it or not. This is a discussion about helping the Nexus keep AAA modders here. So, if you feel that you owe something to Dark0ne and the rest, then give them your support by

1) Shutting up your drivel against creators who want to sell their products.
2) Try to think of ways to keep those creators happy by flowing donations.
3) Donate, if you can.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: Greedy modders can take a hike. If they want to try and make a living modding good luck with that because it will not happen.

Real modders will continue to make mods and get exposure for their talents.

Mods are not a requirement. If you want to spend hours working on something then attempt to charge for it, then hardly anyone will see your work or it will just pirated from you. You are just peeing into the wind.

Galadreal wrote: Wow, you just totally missed the point of the previous comment, didn't you? I mean seriously, I have seen your other posts on here, and I can only guess that you are just here for the trolling. And while I think everyone is allowed to their opinions, this is not a place for trolls. Please remove your hands from the keyboard unless you actually have something constructive to contribute.

Oh, wait, I'm sorry, you don't contribute anything, you don't have any mods that you share with people, and you only have 26 posts, most of which I think are on this thread. So yeah...I don't actually care what you have to say.

Edited: to try to be less angry...and FAILED. I am still angry.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: I see, you don't care about the people who use your content.

That is obvious since you want to join the corporate goons and destroy modding as we know it with the hopes of getting money.

Lets see what mods you have done.

One adds more food to Inn keepers inventory.

The other adds more beds to homes

Your final mod add a general stores chest to certain location.

Hardly anything ground breaking or original. Do you think you would make money with that?

No you wont. You are just helping to drag down modding and are suffering from delusions of grandeur.

And just because I do not agree with you and entertain your greedy dreams does not make me a troll.

Ghatto wrote: What makes you think sites like this will survive should big business actually succeed in turning out paid mods?

Zaldiir wrote: There will always be games with free modding.

Ghatto wrote: True. That does however just throw away criticism of the games that don't.

bethjunkie wrote: Paid modding doesn't have to happen. Bethesda cannot sell what modders don't make. If the only way to share mods is by swapping cash through bethesda.net then I will not mod for Fallout 4.
I am not delusional enough to think my few thousand downloads for old games makes a difference in the grand scheme of things but if everyone who felt similarly did the same it might. Personally I feel there's a better chance at getting a third season of Jericho by flooding CBS with truckloads of nuts again than there is staving off paid mods permanently because of the damage the first go-round did to the community.

axonis wrote: I don't think that will happen. I feel that Bethesda knows that repeating TSR's mistake in controlling fan-made content with lawyers is very bad for business in the role playing genre.

But provide a platform where content authors can sell their creations if they wish to ? Yes, I think that's perfectly sensible. In the worst case, they could start selling their authoring software. I hope this won't happen, but even if it does, it won't be the end of the world.

phellen wrote:

axonis wrote: I don't think that will happen. I feel that Bethesda knows that repeating TSR's mistake in controlling fan-made content with lawyers is very bad for business in the role playing genre.

But provide a platform where content authors can sell their creations if they wish to ? Yes, I think that's perfectly sensible. In the worst case, they could start selling their authoring software. I hope this won't happen, but even if it does, it won't be the end of the world.

Taken from Bethesda.net, (regarding Fallout4)

"Early next year we’ll release for free the new Creation Kit for the PC. This is the same tool we use in the studio. You'll be able to create your own mods and share them with others. We’re especially excited these same mods will then be coming to Xbox One, and then PlayStation 4."

macintroll wrote: "We’re especially excited these same mods will then be coming to Xbox One, and then PlayStation 4."
Weird...Is it me or i see here a "Bethesda controlled" mods store?
I'm not a console user, so who can explain me How these mods will be Downloaded, installed and managed on a console ??
So far each console has his own included store (playstationstore, xbox store) does this mean mods will ONLY be downloaded from thoses stores ?

A step before paid mods ?
And what about the nexus ? can it be possible to make a nexus for consoles ??

From what I understand, PC users can choose from the usual sites, and Steam Workshop. All of the console mods goes through Bethesda.net, which is where the modders will upload their mod if they wish it to be available through consoles. As of yet, I don't see them getting rid of Steam Workshop or anything. It was Valve after all that proposed the paid mod system.

Thing is, if they go to Bethesda.net with paid mods for Fallout 4 on PC, that would remove Valve's cut. Thus, Bethesda can give more to the modders that way, or keep more for themselves. Even going 50/50 Bethesda would get more than they would have with Valve.

Still, as I said, I highly doubt they will use Bethesda.net for PC modding. Since Steam workshop is through Steam, that is what makes it easy for mods on there. Unless Bethesda makes a DRM, or an app for all of this, it won't happen. They've already stated Bethesda.net isn't a DRM. Maybe with TES VI or something, but unless Bethesda pulls something out of nowhere, it's not going to happen now.

[MarchinBunny]

In response to post #28567949. #28568274, #28568494, #28571489, #28572304, #28575029, #28575269, #28593339, #28594674, #28596009, #28596734, #28602924, #28604599, #28614394, #28614759, #28620629, #28622439, #28622704, #28630589, #28630739, #28630799, #28630989, #28631099, #28649744, #28671734, #28674019 are all replies on the same post.

seweryn wrote: I really do not get the issue. So exactly do you want money ? Are you saying you cannot mod because are too bored ? Maybe you should stop modding then or take a break. Modding was always a hobby, something you do for fun or personal enjoyment, not something you do for living.
When i was a part of medieval brotherhood, when i was younger, there were a lot of cost involved it, cost of swords and armor, it cost some cash, traveling to tournaments, sometimes to different countries, but did this because i loved it and not becaused i was hoping for some cash, the moment i stoped having fun with it, i left; simple as that.
If you need to be paid to do mods then maybe you should stop doing it altogether, since it is clear you no longer have the love for it. Instead of something that gives you pleasure you want another revenue source.
If i were you i would just leave it and find something that gives you pleasure.

Xilandro wrote: You're clearly not a modder =D Want to know what modders think? Become one, and then - speak. No offence.

Ducksaws wrote: Just because I love my job means I don't deserve to get paid for the work??

DrakeTheDragon wrote: I wish people would stop repeatedly posting this nonsense when they don't know the harmful unintended implications it does have.

You cannot tell authors why they are modding or for what reasons. They do it for their own, whatever these are, and many authors think about it very differently. Trying to do so offends "many" authors in general every single time.

As you can't know why they started modding, you also can't tell them they should stop it. Reading you doing so "again" offends many authors, whether they're your target group or not.

I really wish people posting these would understand that in most cases it's the still free sharing authors rather taking up their suggestions instead and leaving, as these have absolutely nothing of value to loose by quitting, and the receiving end is making itself more and more not worth the time and effort, whereas the ones hoping for payment at some point will stay until it becomes clear they won't get it ever, which quite frankly will never happen as long as the companies themselves are still looking into it on a big scale.

Mod authors in a way are in many cases somewhat like a hive mind. Attack one and chances are really high many others, if not most, will feel attacked just as much, or at least really offended by "one of them" being attacked. Blanket statements made against some, the more blanket they are, the more authors in general they will hit, but mostly those "not" intended to get hit.

These people are doing lists, mind you, mentally or actually on paper, of all the s#*! they already had to take, whether personally or against mod authors in general, and how much more of it they still can take, before too much is too much. Every single time statements like this, and suggestions like "..., then you should just stop sharing your mods and do something else", pop up again somewhere in comments and these people see them, there goes another tally.

Everyone has a different limit, of course, but would you be an author, and able to read behind the curtains, where they discuss these things among themselves in private, you'd see how many have already quit and left over the community's reaction to the Steam paid mods attempt alone, or the comments made against the very idea of the work of these people being "worth anything", or how much they "should" be doing it "for the community" or they're "not doing it right", or better yet "shouldn't be doing it at all" to begin with. These all hit the mark, but mostly also with the wrong targets.

They hear you, they listen, they leave, or just stop sharing... but it's "not" (just) the ones you're talking to.

I'm seeing far too many of these popping up in comments recently, and considering their number is in direct relation to the number of free sharing authors quitting over it and similar things, it's by far not a pleasant picture.
I really wish they'd stop. But like all the others along the same ilk, they just won't.

So congratulations, for successfully removing yet another X mod authors and/or their mods and/or their knowledge, wisdom and expertise from the community, mostly free sharing ones at that.
(X here is not necessarily a whole number, but it's not unlikely to be >1 either, and at the end of the day, these are just summing up until the point whole numbers are reached again.)
Keep it coming, people, there's still some authors left!

Jafin16 wrote: Why don't you make a mod and try to support that mod? Then come back in 6 months and say the same. You won't. You're right, in general (but certainly not exclusively) modders make mods because they want to make them, whether for use in their game, because they like the process, it's practice for schooling or work (thinking 3D modelling here... and Falskaar which got the guy a job), and other reasons. However, the primary motivator for many is not sharing the mod and certainly not doing all the support necessary. Many (most?) mod authors share the mod out of the goodness of their heart... and then the requests, the inane, repetitive questions, the "this mod is crap" comments start coming in. Suddenly, instead of modding for fun, you're running tech support and, if you're generous, you might start helping people fix their computers they broke themselves in an effort to help them get your REALLY SIMPLE TO INSTALL AND USE MOD to work on their borked systems. After awhile, you might like it when someone sends you five bucks, or buys you a game on Steam or the like because you've been putting up with a ridiculous number of annoyances and abuse for your good hearted effort to share with the community... a community which very rarely gives back.

This is just one possible example why a donation might be nice once in awhile... even if it's just $5. You may respond with "Well if you don't like doing it, then maybe you shouldn't do it anymore!" Ok, all of the mod authors who would maybe like a donation once in awhile, even though they rarely if ever get them, will just take our mods down and use them ourselves. OH WAIT! You can't have that! Then you won't have any mods to use! See the problem with your thesis? It actually hurts the mod users more than the authors. The authors can make their own content. Those who are simply mod users, well they can't.

Ok, I'm done. *shuffles away*

seweryn wrote: All i get was backlash, but my question didn't get answered.
1. I tried to do some modding but it takes too much time and i prefer to do other things.
2. i was modding witcher 2, creating my own version of stats, difficulty, but i wasn't happy with the quality so i didn't release it.
3. I am not a programmer, graphic artist or designer; In truth i hate those things.
They are just not my cup of tea.

So could someone explain me why because i do not get it.
I want to understand this.

B1gBadDaddy wrote: You want to know why you don't enjoy modding? Probably the same reason you don't enjoy anything you don't do...

Arthmoor wrote: So tell me something. Are you saying that everyone who has a job necessarily must hate doing that job? Cause that's what it sounds like to me. That you shouldn't get paid to do something you love doing.

Though... that could explain why everyone is so miserable looking at their jobs. Maybe nobody really does like what they do for a living. Maybe it's these people who hate that they have to suffer and demand everyone else suffer along with them or it's not a valid way to make money. But no, that would be terribly cynical.

tl;dr: Thinks that give you pleasure can ALSO be sources of revenue.

Chesko wrote: seweryn - I don't want to make an argument for or against, but I think it's important to speak to your initial analogy, re: participation in a sport or group activity.

The important difference is that in that case, you are spending money and energy to bring enjoyment to yourself (and indirectly, your teammates or other association members) through participation. And especially in the case of a sport, all team members are (more or less) equal contributors. You're all putting in equal sweat, time, and money for "the love of the game/clan/group/etc". Shared commitment, shared resources, shared goals. Very "you and me, we're in this together".

Modders spend large amounts of time, and sometimes money, to bring enjoyment to a large number of people who do not spend any money and a trivial amount of time. There is less "we're in this together"-ness and more of a producer-consumer dynamic.

Can you imagine the Nexus, if the right to download mods was only granted if you had made one yourself? Even something incredibly "simple". Interesting to think how that might change not only how users think about modders and modding, but also how modders think about their users (who are now other modders, too). If every user were a modder, it would feel more like we're all in a big team, and that would certainly be something. This won't happen, but it's interesting to think about.

Galadreal wrote: @ Jafin16
THANK YOU!! my gods that was so accurate it was scary. Seriously, I started doing this as a hobby, but I get so damned sick and tired of trying to help troubleshoot because people cannot read the description, then say my mod broke their game because they cannot take less than 10 minute to read the damned page. Yes, if you see a bug, please let me know, I will be glad to fix it. If you can't move kids into your house because you just did not read the damned description then no, get lost, I have already answered that question on the front page, and 20 more times in the comments. If someone wanted me to buy me a frappachino for my work, I would be frigging elated.

I still enjoy modding, I still enjoy making stuff, I get so damned tired of criticism by people who have no idea how long or difficult it is, or who don't read directions. Or better yet, people who don't mod, but insist that they can tell you of their own great idea that you should drop everything that you are working on to do their project, because, they just don't understand how it works, or don't have time. Yeah...forget that. It is not, nor has it ever been about making money. But if someone wanted to be nice and say, "you know, I really appreciate the 1000+ hours you spent on these things, I would like to buy you a cup of coffee." I would be ecstatic, I really would. Endorsements are nice, they say "hey, I saw you mod, tried it out, and it enjoyed it." but if it is one of your MUST HAVE mods, one that you cannot play Skyrim without having, then why not throw a little extra something towards the authors who made it that much better? They have not asked, it is just a nice thing to do.

Ynguatep wrote: What Ducksaws wrote is a common thing you get to hear as a dev in the games business. Sad, but true. You got your dream job, don't whine about money. Believe me this can spoil the dream job completely.

This is why I believe that mod donations are a sign of respect. You can't earn actual money by modding, you'll hardly get your time paid (exceptions may happen). I see this, as Patreon and donations of this kind in general, as a revival of the almost extinct support for artists named after Maecenas. Pay an artist if you want something special, donate to them if you like their art. Or mods. Games are art, after all.

To tell an artist, or anyone else who adds to cultural wealth without getting paid, that taking donations is evil, is to tell them to starve. It is also a sign of appreciation. Basically, you call modder's work worthless, or them worthless 'cause they "spoil" it by monetary issues. Each modder can decide for themselves whether they want donations or not. Some won't need it, some might be happy to be rewarded.
Try to earn your living with art and / or making games for a while. I do, and wasn't even able to afford a gambison, not even speaking about chainmail or traveling to medieval reenactment events regularly. "do something that gives you pleasure" is easily said if you've got a regular income. Even people who work nine-to-five in the games biz (more like nine-to-late, lol) who mod in their spare time might like to see a "thank you" in words or coin from time to time.

Also don't forget modders who work with a team, mostly working for free, who use the donations to pay their coders, composers and testers, or also just to say "thanks".

Softclocks wrote: This isn't your job. Nobody hired you. You're doing this out of your own free will.

Ynguatep wrote: Yes. But that does not prohibit me for accepting donations (sic! )
I merely had to note how ungrateful the games biz already is, and I would be deeply disappointed if the modding area turns out to be as ignorant towards modders as the biz is towards the people which make it possible. All of this here would not exist without modders. They mod not only for their fun, but for everyone's. To say "donations spoil the fun" sounds like "you did not earn a thanks". Well, thanks for that.
Mods are still free. If you don't want to or can't donate, don't do it. Nobody will be blamed for that.

endgameaddiction wrote: blah blah blah...


Seweryn, I agree with you on this. Modding is a humble hobby. It has been for a very very long time. But now people are demanding donations. Just as much as they did endorsement. The entitlement I swear. This place is the Facebook of modding. All these narcissistic people just feeling demanding, and if they don't get it, they throw a fit until they do get it. Not making enough, find a better job.

I'll spare the lecture. But yeah, these people wouldn't get a nickle out of me. Don't care how many hundreds of hours are put into the project. No one is holding a gun to their head and demanding it be made. Want money? Get a job.

Ynguatep wrote: Learn to read. The only person demanding anything here is you: demanding that you are the one to decide how other people have to work and define their hobbies in your humble opinion.

Sorry for demanding satisfaction (haha), I'm in the mood artsy people use to be in after a workday of 20 hrs nonstop.

Ghatto wrote: Everyone look. Seweryn isn't trying to tell people what to think or feel, or have you guys explain about whether you want to be paid for what you love or if you deserve to be. The confusion comes from wanting to understand the TRANSITION: as in how many modders who are all of a sudden pro-payment when they appeared happy to do so for free before.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: Your greed will only make piracy more common and you will still end up not getting paid for your hobby.

Galadreal wrote: He sound very hostile in his question of this though. The manner with which he poses the question is off-putting. Regardless, I tried to answer this earlier. Most modders do it because they enjoy it, but they are not opposed to people giving them something to show appreciation, even if is is just a thanks in the form of coffee money (I always use that idea, but that is because I am caffeine powered). The whole point is not necessarily that people want to be paid full time for modding, just that they resent the backlash of the paid modding fiasco and being told that they do not deserve to be paid. When someone puts in a lot of time on something, hobby or no, they want to at least be acknowledge for their hard work, that can come in the form of endorsements, positive comments, or if someone wants to throw them a little cash, that is also cool, but not something they have to have. It is just a nice way of showing that you appreciate if they take the time and effort to do something you enjoy.
The real problem comes in with people like seweryn who then accuse modders of just trying to make money, when they have clearly been releasing free stuff for years, they were never in it to make money, but when the opportunity presented itself to take something they have put time and sometimes their own money into, then yes, several of them took it. It is not about a sudden transition to being pro-payment, it is about people wanting to be acknowledged for their hard work. And all the harassment some of them received when they did got a legitimate business offer to do paid mods.
I have spent over 2000 hours working in the creation kit, about half of that was on one mod, learning, creating, tweaking, and bug fixes. I did not ask for anything in return, but if someone wanted to do something, I would appreciate it. That is not new, there has been no major transition, except that several people are yelling "Entitlement" on both sides, modders and non-modders alike. This whole process stirred up one heck of a hornets nest, and created many bad feelings all around. Mod authors feeling abused, mod users feeling abused. And no one is about to let go of that.
And while I don't expect to be paid for my hobby (none of my stuff is that good), some people who turn out amazing and game changing mods were badly abused when they tried to actually follow a proposed business model put forth by the game developers. Some received death threats...how messed up is that? They are feeling somewhat betrayed, and most of them are not asking outright for money after the project failed, but they are not opposed to someone showing them appreciation by offering a donation either.

C0drm0nk33 wrote: Seeing a lot on morons making the blanket statements that an improved donation system will somehow cost them money. Mod authors aren't forcing anyone to give them money for their mods. They are just wanting those who enjoy their mods to "consider" donating and making it easier for those users who wish to, be able to donate.
A lot of mod authors would like more time to make improvements to their mods, improvements that could/would benefit the modding community but work and other real life commitments preclude that.

AeroModss wrote: Man Xilandro speaks truth.Become one of them,then you will see what is actually happening.For example,you work hundreds of hours on a mod,you see some problem almoust every day,then you spend another 2-3 hours just solving it.We didn't come here just for money,we came because we wanted to share our work and experience with other fellow authors and mod users,but only thing that donations do is to help our financial state,to help our families to pay bills by sharing some of our donations,and by motivating us to work better and harder. :D

AeroModss wrote: @Jafin16
You just hit bulls eye man,srsly.Awesome point there.

AeroModss wrote: Oh you see this is the problem.WE MODDERS SPEND HUNDREDS OF HOURS MAKING A MOD.You dare to make a comment like this saying all these bad things about modders,and yet you haven't released your mod because it was too bad for you or because it was too hard to do.Grow up man.Do you think we modders make our mods without any problems ? We spend hundreds upon hundreds of hours making a single mod file.And now look at the mod section bellow what people say.Come back in 5-6 months when you make a mod with the same statement you said there.But the problem is,I think you won't.

AeroModss wrote: @Chesko
Yep mate,it won't happend because of some people who have to be always different in some ways.

Brabbit1987 wrote: Back when I was a modder using Valve's Worldcraft, (Later renamed to Hammer) I never expected a dime. Honestly, I have always seen it as a way to gain experience for entering the gaming industry. It looks great on a resume and that in and of itself is payment enough.

Everyone at some point needs to move on. Modding is an entry point, not a job. Keeping in mind, I am not saying it can't become a job. It can, but it's pretty rare and if that is what you are looking to do, you are better off going to games that are made with that in mind. If I remember correctly, there are some people who run successful businesses on Second Life. Mojang seems to allow you to sell your mods, at least I have seen some people doing so.

If you want to be paid to do what you love, try doing it in a community that has already accepted paid modding or try and get a job in the gaming industry. If it means no longer being able to mod for skyrim, then so be it. That tends to be the way the modding community works. Modders come and go. As they get older they have to eventually move on. Typically speaking, you can't just turn a hobby into a job. You can get a job similar to your hobby though.

HadToRegister wrote: NOBODY....NOBODY ever started modding with the idea of making money from it, other than as a portfolio to possibly get a job offer, but not from making mods.

Mods are at most a resumé, not a source of income.

Mods are ESSENTIAL for Bethesda games because Bethesda games are notoriously buggy, half-finished and incomplete, and modding Bethesda games was done out of necessity

The fact that Bethesda is trying to make extra money by having the people who purchased the game, actually FIX THE GAME FOR THEM is pretty lame.

I've been playing guitar for 40 years, sometimes I get paid to play, other times I don't, either is cool with me BECAUSE I ENJOY PLAYING THE GUITAR.

Gopher wrote: "Typically speaking, you can't just turn a hobby into a job."

And yet millions of people do. They may be the lucky few, but there is nothing inherently 'illegal' with turning your hobby into a job. If someone will pay you to do something and that something is not against the law and hurts nobody (in a legally relevant sense), then you can very easily turn a hobby into a business.

@Gopher
Hi there Gopher.

"And yet millions of people do. They may be the lucky few, but there is nothing inherently 'illegal' with turning your hobby into a job. If someone will pay you to do something and that something is not against the law and hurts nobody (in a legally relevant sense), then you can very easily turn a hobby into a business."

This is why I said "typically." It's certainly possible to turn a hobby into a job, but it's not very often that it occurs. I also never said it was illegal, so not sure where you got that from. Artists can do it, by doing commissions as an example. However, you have to be really good at what you do in order to make a living off of commissions. You need a large enough fan base. You also need original characters that people want drawings of. If you make to much money off of fan art, you tend to get sued. Most artists don't continue doing that though. Many move on to become animators, or work for a company. They end up in a field similar to their hobby.

The same goes with modding, except modding is a bit harder to do because you always are using another's IP in order to do it. It's closer to trying to sell fan art, than original characters. That is why modding for the majority of it's life has been free. Because of legal reasons. Modders knew that from day 1 when they started modding, or at least they should. It's a hobby, not a job. If you want compensation for the work you put in, then I suggest you stop wasting your time on something so unsure. Put that time and effort into something you know you can make money off of. Don't just make something that would normally be free, and hope to sell it. It's never going to go well.

You didn't start youtube assuming it would ever be your job, I bet. A hobby can turn into a job, but it's rare, and it can't be forced. Garry probably also never expected to sell his mod, and he certainly didn't force it. Black Mesa Source also ended up the same way.

If you are making a free mod, you can't just turn around and say to fans, you now have to pay for it. You have to have something fans feel is worth paying for first. Especially if you are going to be charging close to dlc / official content prices.

[MrJoseCuervo]

In response to post #28567949. #28568274, #28568494, #28571489, #28572304, #28575029, #28575269, #28593339, #28594674, #28596009, #28596734, #28602924, #28604599, #28614394, #28614759, #28620629, #28622439, #28622704, #28630589, #28630739, #28630799, #28630989, #28631099, #28649744, #28671734, #28674019, #28694069 are all replies on the same post.

seweryn wrote: I really do not get the issue. So exactly do you want money ? Are you saying you cannot mod because are too bored ? Maybe you should stop modding then or take a break. Modding was always a hobby, something you do for fun or personal enjoyment, not something you do for living.
When i was a part of medieval brotherhood, when i was younger, there were a lot of cost involved it, cost of swords and armor, it cost some cash, traveling to tournaments, sometimes to different countries, but did this because i loved it and not becaused i was hoping for some cash, the moment i stoped having fun with it, i left; simple as that.
If you need to be paid to do mods then maybe you should stop doing it altogether, since it is clear you no longer have the love for it. Instead of something that gives you pleasure you want another revenue source.
If i were you i would just leave it and find something that gives you pleasure.

Xilandro wrote: You're clearly not a modder =D Want to know what modders think? Become one, and then - speak. No offence.

Ducksaws wrote: Just because I love my job means I don't deserve to get paid for the work??

DrakeTheDragon wrote: I wish people would stop repeatedly posting this nonsense when they don't know the harmful unintended implications it does have.

You cannot tell authors why they are modding or for what reasons. They do it for their own, whatever these are, and many authors think about it very differently. Trying to do so offends "many" authors in general every single time.

As you can't know why they started modding, you also can't tell them they should stop it. Reading you doing so "again" offends many authors, whether they're your target group or not.

I really wish people posting these would understand that in most cases it's the still free sharing authors rather taking up their suggestions instead and leaving, as these have absolutely nothing of value to loose by quitting, and the receiving end is making itself more and more not worth the time and effort, whereas the ones hoping for payment at some point will stay until it becomes clear they won't get it ever, which quite frankly will never happen as long as the companies themselves are still looking into it on a big scale.

Mod authors in a way are in many cases somewhat like a hive mind. Attack one and chances are really high many others, if not most, will feel attacked just as much, or at least really offended by "one of them" being attacked. Blanket statements made against some, the more blanket they are, the more authors in general they will hit, but mostly those "not" intended to get hit.

These people are doing lists, mind you, mentally or actually on paper, of all the s#*! they already had to take, whether personally or against mod authors in general, and how much more of it they still can take, before too much is too much. Every single time statements like this, and suggestions like "..., then you should just stop sharing your mods and do something else", pop up again somewhere in comments and these people see them, there goes another tally.

Everyone has a different limit, of course, but would you be an author, and able to read behind the curtains, where they discuss these things among themselves in private, you'd see how many have already quit and left over the community's reaction to the Steam paid mods attempt alone, or the comments made against the very idea of the work of these people being "worth anything", or how much they "should" be doing it "for the community" or they're "not doing it right", or better yet "shouldn't be doing it at all" to begin with. These all hit the mark, but mostly also with the wrong targets.

They hear you, they listen, they leave, or just stop sharing... but it's "not" (just) the ones you're talking to.

I'm seeing far too many of these popping up in comments recently, and considering their number is in direct relation to the number of free sharing authors quitting over it and similar things, it's by far not a pleasant picture.
I really wish they'd stop. But like all the others along the same ilk, they just won't.

So congratulations, for successfully removing yet another X mod authors and/or their mods and/or their knowledge, wisdom and expertise from the community, mostly free sharing ones at that.
(X here is not necessarily a whole number, but it's not unlikely to be >1 either, and at the end of the day, these are just summing up until the point whole numbers are reached again.)
Keep it coming, people, there's still some authors left!

Jafin16 wrote: Why don't you make a mod and try to support that mod? Then come back in 6 months and say the same. You won't. You're right, in general (but certainly not exclusively) modders make mods because they want to make them, whether for use in their game, because they like the process, it's practice for schooling or work (thinking 3D modelling here... and Falskaar which got the guy a job), and other reasons. However, the primary motivator for many is not sharing the mod and certainly not doing all the support necessary. Many (most?) mod authors share the mod out of the goodness of their heart... and then the requests, the inane, repetitive questions, the "this mod is crap" comments start coming in. Suddenly, instead of modding for fun, you're running tech support and, if you're generous, you might start helping people fix their computers they broke themselves in an effort to help them get your REALLY SIMPLE TO INSTALL AND USE MOD to work on their borked systems. After awhile, you might like it when someone sends you five bucks, or buys you a game on Steam or the like because you've been putting up with a ridiculous number of annoyances and abuse for your good hearted effort to share with the community... a community which very rarely gives back.

This is just one possible example why a donation might be nice once in awhile... even if it's just $5. You may respond with "Well if you don't like doing it, then maybe you shouldn't do it anymore!" Ok, all of the mod authors who would maybe like a donation once in awhile, even though they rarely if ever get them, will just take our mods down and use them ourselves. OH WAIT! You can't have that! Then you won't have any mods to use! See the problem with your thesis? It actually hurts the mod users more than the authors. The authors can make their own content. Those who are simply mod users, well they can't.

Ok, I'm done. *shuffles away*

seweryn wrote: All i get was backlash, but my question didn't get answered.
1. I tried to do some modding but it takes too much time and i prefer to do other things.
2. i was modding witcher 2, creating my own version of stats, difficulty, but i wasn't happy with the quality so i didn't release it.
3. I am not a programmer, graphic artist or designer; In truth i hate those things.
They are just not my cup of tea.

So could someone explain me why because i do not get it.
I want to understand this.

B1gBadDaddy wrote: You want to know why you don't enjoy modding? Probably the same reason you don't enjoy anything you don't do...

Arthmoor wrote: So tell me something. Are you saying that everyone who has a job necessarily must hate doing that job? Cause that's what it sounds like to me. That you shouldn't get paid to do something you love doing.

Though... that could explain why everyone is so miserable looking at their jobs. Maybe nobody really does like what they do for a living. Maybe it's these people who hate that they have to suffer and demand everyone else suffer along with them or it's not a valid way to make money. But no, that would be terribly cynical.

tl;dr: Thinks that give you pleasure can ALSO be sources of revenue.

Chesko wrote: seweryn - I don't want to make an argument for or against, but I think it's important to speak to your initial analogy, re: participation in a sport or group activity.

The important difference is that in that case, you are spending money and energy to bring enjoyment to yourself (and indirectly, your teammates or other association members) through participation. And especially in the case of a sport, all team members are (more or less) equal contributors. You're all putting in equal sweat, time, and money for "the love of the game/clan/group/etc". Shared commitment, shared resources, shared goals. Very "you and me, we're in this together".

Modders spend large amounts of time, and sometimes money, to bring enjoyment to a large number of people who do not spend any money and a trivial amount of time. There is less "we're in this together"-ness and more of a producer-consumer dynamic.

Can you imagine the Nexus, if the right to download mods was only granted if you had made one yourself? Even something incredibly "simple". Interesting to think how that might change not only how users think about modders and modding, but also how modders think about their users (who are now other modders, too). If every user were a modder, it would feel more like we're all in a big team, and that would certainly be something. This won't happen, but it's interesting to think about.

Galadreal wrote: @ Jafin16
THANK YOU!! my gods that was so accurate it was scary. Seriously, I started doing this as a hobby, but I get so damned sick and tired of trying to help troubleshoot because people cannot read the description, then say my mod broke their game because they cannot take less than 10 minute to read the damned page. Yes, if you see a bug, please let me know, I will be glad to fix it. If you can't move kids into your house because you just did not read the damned description then no, get lost, I have already answered that question on the front page, and 20 more times in the comments. If someone wanted me to buy me a frappachino for my work, I would be frigging elated.

I still enjoy modding, I still enjoy making stuff, I get so damned tired of criticism by people who have no idea how long or difficult it is, or who don't read directions. Or better yet, people who don't mod, but insist that they can tell you of their own great idea that you should drop everything that you are working on to do their project, because, they just don't understand how it works, or don't have time. Yeah...forget that. It is not, nor has it ever been about making money. But if someone wanted to be nice and say, "you know, I really appreciate the 1000+ hours you spent on these things, I would like to buy you a cup of coffee." I would be ecstatic, I really would. Endorsements are nice, they say "hey, I saw you mod, tried it out, and it enjoyed it." but if it is one of your MUST HAVE mods, one that you cannot play Skyrim without having, then why not throw a little extra something towards the authors who made it that much better? They have not asked, it is just a nice thing to do.

Ynguatep wrote: What Ducksaws wrote is a common thing you get to hear as a dev in the games business. Sad, but true. You got your dream job, don't whine about money. Believe me this can spoil the dream job completely.

This is why I believe that mod donations are a sign of respect. You can't earn actual money by modding, you'll hardly get your time paid (exceptions may happen). I see this, as Patreon and donations of this kind in general, as a revival of the almost extinct support for artists named after Maecenas. Pay an artist if you want something special, donate to them if you like their art. Or mods. Games are art, after all.

To tell an artist, or anyone else who adds to cultural wealth without getting paid, that taking donations is evil, is to tell them to starve. It is also a sign of appreciation. Basically, you call modder's work worthless, or them worthless 'cause they "spoil" it by monetary issues. Each modder can decide for themselves whether they want donations or not. Some won't need it, some might be happy to be rewarded.
Try to earn your living with art and / or making games for a while. I do, and wasn't even able to afford a gambison, not even speaking about chainmail or traveling to medieval reenactment events regularly. "do something that gives you pleasure" is easily said if you've got a regular income. Even people who work nine-to-five in the games biz (more like nine-to-late, lol) who mod in their spare time might like to see a "thank you" in words or coin from time to time.

Also don't forget modders who work with a team, mostly working for free, who use the donations to pay their coders, composers and testers, or also just to say "thanks".

Softclocks wrote: This isn't your job. Nobody hired you. You're doing this out of your own free will.

Ynguatep wrote: Yes. But that does not prohibit me for accepting donations (sic! )
I merely had to note how ungrateful the games biz already is, and I would be deeply disappointed if the modding area turns out to be as ignorant towards modders as the biz is towards the people which make it possible. All of this here would not exist without modders. They mod not only for their fun, but for everyone's. To say "donations spoil the fun" sounds like "you did not earn a thanks". Well, thanks for that.
Mods are still free. If you don't want to or can't donate, don't do it. Nobody will be blamed for that.

endgameaddiction wrote: blah blah blah...


Seweryn, I agree with you on this. Modding is a humble hobby. It has been for a very very long time. But now people are demanding donations. Just as much as they did endorsement. The entitlement I swear. This place is the Facebook of modding. All these narcissistic people just feeling demanding, and if they don't get it, they throw a fit until they do get it. Not making enough, find a better job.

I'll spare the lecture. But yeah, these people wouldn't get a nickle out of me. Don't care how many hundreds of hours are put into the project. No one is holding a gun to their head and demanding it be made. Want money? Get a job.

Ynguatep wrote: Learn to read. The only person demanding anything here is you: demanding that you are the one to decide how other people have to work and define their hobbies in your humble opinion.

Sorry for demanding satisfaction (haha), I'm in the mood artsy people use to be in after a workday of 20 hrs nonstop.

Ghatto wrote: Everyone look. Seweryn isn't trying to tell people what to think or feel, or have you guys explain about whether you want to be paid for what you love or if you deserve to be. The confusion comes from wanting to understand the TRANSITION: as in how many modders who are all of a sudden pro-payment when they appeared happy to do so for free before.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: Your greed will only make piracy more common and you will still end up not getting paid for your hobby.

Galadreal wrote: He sound very hostile in his question of this though. The manner with which he poses the question is off-putting. Regardless, I tried to answer this earlier. Most modders do it because they enjoy it, but they are not opposed to people giving them something to show appreciation, even if is is just a thanks in the form of coffee money (I always use that idea, but that is because I am caffeine powered). The whole point is not necessarily that people want to be paid full time for modding, just that they resent the backlash of the paid modding fiasco and being told that they do not deserve to be paid. When someone puts in a lot of time on something, hobby or no, they want to at least be acknowledge for their hard work, that can come in the form of endorsements, positive comments, or if someone wants to throw them a little cash, that is also cool, but not something they have to have. It is just a nice way of showing that you appreciate if they take the time and effort to do something you enjoy.
The real problem comes in with people like seweryn who then accuse modders of just trying to make money, when they have clearly been releasing free stuff for years, they were never in it to make money, but when the opportunity presented itself to take something they have put time and sometimes their own money into, then yes, several of them took it. It is not about a sudden transition to being pro-payment, it is about people wanting to be acknowledged for their hard work. And all the harassment some of them received when they did got a legitimate business offer to do paid mods.
I have spent over 2000 hours working in the creation kit, about half of that was on one mod, learning, creating, tweaking, and bug fixes. I did not ask for anything in return, but if someone wanted to do something, I would appreciate it. That is not new, there has been no major transition, except that several people are yelling "Entitlement" on both sides, modders and non-modders alike. This whole process stirred up one heck of a hornets nest, and created many bad feelings all around. Mod authors feeling abused, mod users feeling abused. And no one is about to let go of that.
And while I don't expect to be paid for my hobby (none of my stuff is that good), some people who turn out amazing and game changing mods were badly abused when they tried to actually follow a proposed business model put forth by the game developers. Some received death threats...how messed up is that? They are feeling somewhat betrayed, and most of them are not asking outright for money after the project failed, but they are not opposed to someone showing them appreciation by offering a donation either.

C0drm0nk33 wrote: Seeing a lot on morons making the blanket statements that an improved donation system will somehow cost them money. Mod authors aren't forcing anyone to give them money for their mods. They are just wanting those who enjoy their mods to "consider" donating and making it easier for those users who wish to, be able to donate.
A lot of mod authors would like more time to make improvements to their mods, improvements that could/would benefit the modding community but work and other real life commitments preclude that.

AeroModss wrote: Man Xilandro speaks truth.Become one of them,then you will see what is actually happening.For example,you work hundreds of hours on a mod,you see some problem almoust every day,then you spend another 2-3 hours just solving it.We didn't come here just for money,we came because we wanted to share our work and experience with other fellow authors and mod users,but only thing that donations do is to help our financial state,to help our families to pay bills by sharing some of our donations,and by motivating us to work better and harder. :D

AeroModss wrote: @Jafin16
You just hit bulls eye man,srsly.Awesome point there.

AeroModss wrote: Oh you see this is the problem.WE MODDERS SPEND HUNDREDS OF HOURS MAKING A MOD.You dare to make a comment like this saying all these bad things about modders,and yet you haven't released your mod because it was too bad for you or because it was too hard to do.Grow up man.Do you think we modders make our mods without any problems ? We spend hundreds upon hundreds of hours making a single mod file.And now look at the mod section bellow what people say.Come back in 5-6 months when you make a mod with the same statement you said there.But the problem is,I think you won't.

AeroModss wrote: @Chesko
Yep mate,it won't happend because of some people who have to be always different in some ways.

Brabbit1987 wrote: Back when I was a modder using Valve's Worldcraft, (Later renamed to Hammer) I never expected a dime. Honestly, I have always seen it as a way to gain experience for entering the gaming industry. It looks great on a resume and that in and of itself is payment enough.

Everyone at some point needs to move on. Modding is an entry point, not a job. Keeping in mind, I am not saying it can't become a job. It can, but it's pretty rare and if that is what you are looking to do, you are better off going to games that are made with that in mind. If I remember correctly, there are some people who run successful businesses on Second Life. Mojang seems to allow you to sell your mods, at least I have seen some people doing so.

If you want to be paid to do what you love, try doing it in a community that has already accepted paid modding or try and get a job in the gaming industry. If it means no longer being able to mod for skyrim, then so be it. That tends to be the way the modding community works. Modders come and go. As they get older they have to eventually move on. Typically speaking, you can't just turn a hobby into a job. You can get a job similar to your hobby though.

HadToRegister wrote: NOBODY....NOBODY ever started modding with the idea of making money from it, other than as a portfolio to possibly get a job offer, but not from making mods.

Mods are at most a resumé, not a source of income.

Mods are ESSENTIAL for Bethesda games because Bethesda games are notoriously buggy, half-finished and incomplete, and modding Bethesda games was done out of necessity

The fact that Bethesda is trying to make extra money by having the people who purchased the game, actually FIX THE GAME FOR THEM is pretty lame.

I've been playing guitar for 40 years, sometimes I get paid to play, other times I don't, either is cool with me BECAUSE I ENJOY PLAYING THE GUITAR.

Gopher wrote: "Typically speaking, you can't just turn a hobby into a job."

And yet millions of people do. They may be the lucky few, but there is nothing inherently 'illegal' with turning your hobby into a job. If someone will pay you to do something and that something is not against the law and hurts nobody (in a legally relevant sense), then you can very easily turn a hobby into a business.

Brabbit1987 wrote: @Gopher
Hi there Gopher.

"And yet millions of people do. They may be the lucky few, but there is nothing inherently 'illegal' with turning your hobby into a job. If someone will pay you to do something and that something is not against the law and hurts nobody (in a legally relevant sense), then you can very easily turn a hobby into a business."

This is why I said "typically." It's certainly possible to turn a hobby into a job, but it's not very often that it occurs. I also never said it was illegal, so not sure where you got that from. Artists can do it, by doing commissions as an example. However, you have to be really good at what you do in order to make a living off of commissions. You need a large enough fan base. You also need original characters that people want drawings of. If you make to much money off of fan art, you tend to get sued. Most artists don't continue doing that though. Many move on to become animators, or work for a company. They end up in a field similar to their hobby.

The same goes with modding, except modding is a bit harder to do because you always are using another's IP in order to do it. It's closer to trying to sell fan art, than original characters. That is why modding for the majority of it's life has been free. Because of legal reasons. Modders knew that from day 1 when they started modding, or at least they should. It's a hobby, not a job. If you want compensation for the work you put in, then I suggest you stop wasting your time on something so unsure. Put that time and effort into something you know you can make money off of. Don't just make something that would normally be free, and hope to sell it. It's never going to go well.

You didn't start youtube assuming it would ever be your job, I bet. A hobby can turn into a job, but it's rare, and it can't be forced. Garry probably also never expected to sell his mod, and he certainly didn't force it. Black Mesa Source also ended up the same way.

If you are making a free mod, you can't just turn around and say to fans, you now have to pay for it. You have to have something fans feel is worth paying for first. Especially if you are going to be charging close to dlc / official content prices.

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