Why we can't use Patreon, and talking about donations and doing more to support mod authors

[gezegond]

In response to post #28740509. #28745704 is also a reply to the same post.

Mr. Dave wrote: RE: Bethesda believing they have a claim on all mods.
I can make a mod without using one single thing Bethesda created. I make my own content, every pixel and every polygon, then I use third party tools to implement them. So how is it Bethesda should profit from this? They should be paying me for increasing sales of their games. After all, I only have the largest all original mod out for Skyrim, and my franchise, Bob's Armory, has been so extremely popular for Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim that entire groups of sub mods have been created around it. Bethesda didn't make Bob's Armory. I did. So how is it they should get a cut? In some businesses, if you walk in demanding an implausible cut from someone's net gains, you get shot. Smells like organized crime to me.

Anyway, to the subject at hand.
I am personally not fond at all of the newly implemented donation changes. I get spammy pop ups all over the place asking for donations now, when that never happened before. And the offensive part is that these people did NOT create the content they are shoving pop ups in my face for. Why is it, when I have to download some random follower mod to make sure it isn't crediting someone else for my work (happens around 4 times a week actually), I get spammed with multiple donate pop ups, then find my work included without credits? My work is uploaded for FREE. So why should anyone be able to demand money for something I made?

I think the original system with the single donate button up where the track, endorse, etc. buttons are should be the limit. And the more I am spammed with donate buttons from people who did not create the work, but only downloaded it and re uploaded it, the more vehemently I feel about this. I don't have patience for people trying to profit off riding my, or anyone else's coat tails anymore.

Arthmoor wrote: Simple. Bob's Armory is still derived from Skyrim. Without Skyrim, what is the mod? A collection of random bits you can't actually do much with.

Porting them to some other format means they no longer function in Skyrim.

It's not exactly hard to understand how derivative works work.

As for people stealing your stuff, report it. Nothing will happen if you don't and getting upset that it happens when you don't act on it isn't logical.

Arthmoor: He said he makes his assets from scratch, so they're not based on Skyrim assets and they're not derivative.

I have explained this before but people just don't seem to understand just because something works with something doesn't make it a derivative work. My shirt might look well with my jeans, and I may not go outside wearing only my shirt and nothing else, but that doesn't make my shirt something "derived" from my pants.

Learn the difference.

[sunshinenbrick]

 

In response to post #28740509.

 

 

 

Mr. Dave wrote: RE: Bethesda believing they have a claim on all mods.

I can make a mod without using one single thing Bethesda created. I make my own content, every pixel and every polygon, then I use third party tools to implement them. So how is it Bethesda should profit from this? They should be paying me for increasing sales of their games. After all, I only have the largest all original mod out for Skyrim, and my franchise, Bob's Armory, has been so extremely popular for Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim that entire groups of sub mods have been created around it. Bethesda didn't make Bob's Armory. I did. So how is it they should get a cut? In some businesses, if you walk in demanding an implausible cut from someone's net gains, you get shot. Smells like organized crime to me.

 

Anyway, to the subject at hand.

I am personally not fond at all of the newly implemented donation changes. I get spammy pop ups all over the place asking for donations now, when that never happened before. And the offensive part is that these people did NOT create the content they are shoving pop ups in my face for. Why is it, when I have to download some random follower mod to make sure it isn't crediting someone else for my work (happens around 4 times a week actually), I get spammed with multiple donate pop ups, then find my work included without credits? My work is uploaded for FREE. So why should anyone be able to demand money for something I made?

 

I think the original system with the single donate button up where the track, endorse, etc. buttons are should be the limit. And the more I am spammed with donate buttons from people who did not create the work, but only downloaded it and re uploaded it, the more vehemently I feel about this. I don't have patience for people trying to profit off riding my, or anyone else's coat tails anymore.

Simple. Bob's Armory is still derived from Skyrim. Without Skyrim, what is the mod? A collection of random bits you can't actually do much with.

 

Porting them to some other format means they no longer function in Skyrim.

 

It's not exactly hard to understand how derivative works work.

 

As for people stealing your stuff, report it. Nothing will happen if you don't and getting upset that it happens when you don't act on it isn't logical.

 

 

I agree with both sides of this arguement as the debate between IP and labour is one that needs to be had.

 

It does work both ways as it is reasonable to argue that ideas have been 'borrowed' from modders, by developers, over the years... and profit has been made from it.

 

A lot has to be said for non-financial compesation eg. gifts, official recognition and credit, promotion and sponsorship. A great deal of this revolves around mutual respect, for the idea and for the work that goes into realising it - these games are designed with the added value of modding in mind.

 

Unfortunately it seems that the monetary value has become the way in which people are coerced into showing 'respect' for things... hmmm... but this seems to be endemic the world over :confused:

[gezegond]

In response to post #28747764.

sunshinenbrick wrote:

 

In response to post #28740509.

Mr. Dave wrote: RE: Bethesda believing they have a claim on all mods.
I can make a mod without using one single thing Bethesda created. I make my own content, every pixel and every polygon, then I use third party tools to implement them. So how is it Bethesda should profit from this? They should be paying me for increasing sales of their games. After all, I only have the largest all original mod out for Skyrim, and my franchise, Bob's Armory, has been so extremely popular for Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim that entire groups of sub mods have been created around it. Bethesda didn't make Bob's Armory. I did. So how is it they should get a cut? In some businesses, if you walk in demanding an implausible cut from someone's net gains, you get shot. Smells like organized crime to me.

Anyway, to the subject at hand.
I am personally not fond at all of the newly implemented donation changes. I get spammy pop ups all over the place asking for donations now, when that never happened before. And the offensive part is that these people did NOT create the content they are shoving pop ups in my face for. Why is it, when I have to download some random follower mod to make sure it isn't crediting someone else for my work (happens around 4 times a week actually), I get spammed with multiple donate pop ups, then find my work included without credits? My work is uploaded for FREE. So why should anyone be able to demand money for something I made?

I think the original system with the single donate button up where the track, endorse, etc. buttons are should be the limit. And the more I am spammed with donate buttons from people who did not create the work, but only downloaded it and re uploaded it, the more vehemently I feel about this. I don't have patience for people trying to profit off riding my, or anyone else's coat tails anymore.

Simple. Bob's Armory is still derived from Skyrim. Without Skyrim, what is the mod? A collection of random bits you can't actually do much with.

Porting them to some other format means they no longer function in Skyrim.

It's not exactly hard to understand how derivative works work.

As for people stealing your stuff, report it. Nothing will happen if you don't and getting upset that it happens when you don't act on it isn't logical.

 

 

I agree with both sides of this arguement as the debate between IP and labour is one that needs to be had.

 

It does work both ways as it is reasonable to argue that ideas have been 'borrowed' from modders, by developers, over the years... and profit has been made from it.

 

A lot has to be said for non-financial compesation eg. gifts, official recognition and credit, promotion and sponsorship. A great deal of this revolves around mutual respect, for the idea and for the work that goes into realising it - these games are designed with the added value of modding in mind.

 

Unfortunately it seems that the monetary value has become the way in which people are coerced into showing 'respect' for things... hmmm... but this seems to be endemic the world over :confused:

I believe in free spirit of modding like you, but what some people believe is just downright illegal and they give far too much credit to Bethesda for no reason.

I as a modder do not want any monetary compensation for my work, but at the same time, I don't like the fact that some people imply Bethesda holds copyright over my work. They don't, that's a legal fact.

[MotoSxorpio]

 

In response to post #28747764.

 

 

 

sunshinenbrick wrote:

In response to post #28740509.

 

 

 

Mr. Dave wrote: RE: Bethesda believing they have a claim on all mods.

I can make a mod without using one single thing Bethesda created. I make my own content, every pixel and every polygon, then I use third party tools to implement them. So how is it Bethesda should profit from this? They should be paying me for increasing sales of their games. After all, I only have the largest all original mod out for Skyrim, and my franchise, Bob's Armory, has been so extremely popular for Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim that entire groups of sub mods have been created around it. Bethesda didn't make Bob's Armory. I did. So how is it they should get a cut? In some businesses, if you walk in demanding an implausible cut from someone's net gains, you get shot. Smells like organized crime to me.

 

Anyway, to the subject at hand.

I am personally not fond at all of the newly implemented donation changes. I get spammy pop ups all over the place asking for donations now, when that never happened before. And the offensive part is that these people did NOT create the content they are shoving pop ups in my face for. Why is it, when I have to download some random follower mod to make sure it isn't crediting someone else for my work (happens around 4 times a week actually), I get spammed with multiple donate pop ups, then find my work included without credits? My work is uploaded for FREE. So why should anyone be able to demand money for something I made?

 

I think the original system with the single donate button up where the track, endorse, etc. buttons are should be the limit. And the more I am spammed with donate buttons from people who did not create the work, but only downloaded it and re uploaded it, the more vehemently I feel about this. I don't have patience for people trying to profit off riding my, or anyone else's coat tails anymore.

Simple. Bob's Armory is still derived from Skyrim. Without Skyrim, what is the mod? A collection of random bits you can't actually do much with.

 

Porting them to some other format means they no longer function in Skyrim.

 

It's not exactly hard to understand how derivative works work.

 

As for people stealing your stuff, report it. Nothing will happen if you don't and getting upset that it happens when you don't act on it isn't logical.

I agree with both sides of this arguement as the debate between IP and labour is one that needs to be had.

It does work both ways as it is reasonable to argue that ideas have been 'borrowed' from modders, by developers, over the years... and profit has been made from it.

A lot has to be said for non-financial compesation eg. gifts, official recognition and credit, promotion and sponsorship. A great deal of this revolves around mutual respect, for the idea and for the work that goes into realising it - these games are designed with the added value of modding in mind.

Unfortunately it seems that the monetary value has become the way in which people are coerced into showing 'respect' for things... hmmm... but this seems to be endemic the world over :confused:

I believe in free spirit of modding like you, but what some people believe is just downright illegal and they give far too much credit to Bethesda for no reason.

 

I as a modder do not want any monetary compensation for my work, but at the same time, I don't like the fact that some people imply Bethesda holds copyright over my work. They don't, that's a legal fact.

 

:ermm:

 

No. They (Bethesda) do own everything that is made using any tool that is derived from CK or the game assets. You own the right to participate in the usage of the game and creation tool.

[gezegond]

In response to post #28749129.

MotoSxorpio wrote:

 

In response to post #28747764.

sunshinenbrick wrote:

In response to post #28740509.

Mr. Dave wrote: RE: Bethesda believing they have a claim on all mods.
I can make a mod without using one single thing Bethesda created. I make my own content, every pixel and every polygon, then I use third party tools to implement them. So how is it Bethesda should profit from this? They should be paying me for increasing sales of their games. After all, I only have the largest all original mod out for Skyrim, and my franchise, Bob's Armory, has been so extremely popular for Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim that entire groups of sub mods have been created around it. Bethesda didn't make Bob's Armory. I did. So how is it they should get a cut? In some businesses, if you walk in demanding an implausible cut from someone's net gains, you get shot. Smells like organized crime to me.

Anyway, to the subject at hand.
I am personally not fond at all of the newly implemented donation changes. I get spammy pop ups all over the place asking for donations now, when that never happened before. And the offensive part is that these people did NOT create the content they are shoving pop ups in my face for. Why is it, when I have to download some random follower mod to make sure it isn't crediting someone else for my work (happens around 4 times a week actually), I get spammed with multiple donate pop ups, then find my work included without credits? My work is uploaded for FREE. So why should anyone be able to demand money for something I made?

I think the original system with the single donate button up where the track, endorse, etc. buttons are should be the limit. And the more I am spammed with donate buttons from people who did not create the work, but only downloaded it and re uploaded it, the more vehemently I feel about this. I don't have patience for people trying to profit off riding my, or anyone else's coat tails anymore.

Simple. Bob's Armory is still derived from Skyrim. Without Skyrim, what is the mod? A collection of random bits you can't actually do much with.

Porting them to some other format means they no longer function in Skyrim.

It's not exactly hard to understand how derivative works work.

As for people stealing your stuff, report it. Nothing will happen if you don't and getting upset that it happens when you don't act on it isn't logical.

I agree with both sides of this arguement as the debate between IP and labour is one that needs to be had.

It does work both ways as it is reasonable to argue that ideas have been 'borrowed' from modders, by developers, over the years... and profit has been made from it.

A lot has to be said for non-financial compesation eg. gifts, official recognition and credit, promotion and sponsorship. A great deal of this revolves around mutual respect, for the idea and for the work that goes into realising it - these games are designed with the added value of modding in mind.

Unfortunately it seems that the monetary value has become the way in which people are coerced into showing 'respect' for things... hmmm... but this seems to be endemic the world over :confused:

I believe in free spirit of modding like you, but what some people believe is just downright illegal and they give far too much credit to Bethesda for no reason.

I as a modder do not want any monetary compensation for my work, but at the same time, I don't like the fact that some people imply Bethesda holds copyright over my work. They don't, that's a legal fact.

 

:ermm:

 

No. They (Bethesda) do own everything that is made using any tool that is derived from CK or the game assets. You own the right to participate in the usage of the game and creation tool.

Copyright has nothing to do with tools. Your argument is flawed on so many levels it's not even funny. Do pencil manufacturers hold copyright over drawings made with said pencils?

[sunshinenbrick]

 

 

In response to post #28747764.

 

 

 

sunshinenbrick wrote:

In response to post #28740509.

 

 

 

Mr. Dave wrote: RE: Bethesda believing they have a claim on all mods.

I can make a mod without using one single thing Bethesda created. I make my own content, every pixel and every polygon, then I use third party tools to implement them. So how is it Bethesda should profit from this? They should be paying me for increasing sales of their games. After all, I only have the largest all original mod out for Skyrim, and my franchise, Bob's Armory, has been so extremely popular for Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim that entire groups of sub mods have been created around it. Bethesda didn't make Bob's Armory. I did. So how is it they should get a cut? In some businesses, if you walk in demanding an implausible cut from someone's net gains, you get shot. Smells like organized crime to me.

 

Anyway, to the subject at hand.

I am personally not fond at all of the newly implemented donation changes. I get spammy pop ups all over the place asking for donations now, when that never happened before. And the offensive part is that these people did NOT create the content they are shoving pop ups in my face for. Why is it, when I have to download some random follower mod to make sure it isn't crediting someone else for my work (happens around 4 times a week actually), I get spammed with multiple donate pop ups, then find my work included without credits? My work is uploaded for FREE. So why should anyone be able to demand money for something I made?

 

I think the original system with the single donate button up where the track, endorse, etc. buttons are should be the limit. And the more I am spammed with donate buttons from people who did not create the work, but only downloaded it and re uploaded it, the more vehemently I feel about this. I don't have patience for people trying to profit off riding my, or anyone else's coat tails anymore.

Simple. Bob's Armory is still derived from Skyrim. Without Skyrim, what is the mod? A collection of random bits you can't actually do much with.

 

Porting them to some other format means they no longer function in Skyrim.

 

It's not exactly hard to understand how derivative works work.

 

As for people stealing your stuff, report it. Nothing will happen if you don't and getting upset that it happens when you don't act on it isn't logical.

I agree with both sides of this arguement as the debate between IP and labour is one that needs to be had.

It does work both ways as it is reasonable to argue that ideas have been 'borrowed' from modders, by developers, over the years... and profit has been made from it.

A lot has to be said for non-financial compesation eg. gifts, official recognition and credit, promotion and sponsorship. A great deal of this revolves around mutual respect, for the idea and for the work that goes into realising it - these games are designed with the added value of modding in mind.

Unfortunately it seems that the monetary value has become the way in which people are coerced into showing 'respect' for things... hmmm... but this seems to be endemic the world over :confused:

I believe in free spirit of modding like you, but what some people believe is just downright illegal and they give far too much credit to Bethesda for no reason.

 

I as a modder do not want any monetary compensation for my work, but at the same time, I don't like the fact that some people imply Bethesda holds copyright over my work. They don't, that's a legal fact.

 

:ermm:

 

No. They (Bethesda) do own everything that is made using any tool that is derived from CK or the game assets. You own the right to participate in the usage of the game and creation tool.

 

 

While this is utterly true under current law (although regional law may still rule in the modder's favour) there is a HUGE amount of grey area.

 

My brother is a music producer so I have learnt a little about this from discussing (arguing) with him. If someone makes a song using Cubase then the only thing that differenciates between being able to make money off it or not is the licence agreement. The labour put into it is not owned by Cubase. This is where there is a difference between IP and labour.

 

This even goes so far as doing a 'remix' of a song, there are certain things that cannot be copyrighted... a 4/4 beat for example. Used by many but is a fundamental part of the industry. Now of course there is a lot of leg-room between this and blatently ripping off another song and claiming for your own... but its all down to paperwork and what stands in law.

 

Modding is different because it is a relatively new artform/career and not only has there been very few, if any cases, brought before a judge by now, there is equally little paperwork surrounding it. Furthermore the paperwork that supports either side of a case sometimes only goes as far as the money behind it can.

 

It is blatant that Beth has the IP for Skyrim and the tools to make things for it, however it is at least debatable to the claim that because of this they actually own a modder's IP when they think of some ingeneous idea that Beth never thought of, release it and then people buy loads of caopies of the game because of the mod...

 

Like I said, these are uncharted waters in many respect and the industry of virtual worlds is going to continue ripping the lid off this can of worms for many years to come until the 'unwritten' rules that are prevelant in other industries become part of the social psyche.

 

EDIT: Hell the developers and companies everywhere spend most of the year in court rooms wrangling over these things. Its not clear cut.

[Lisnpuppy]

 

 

 

In response to post #28747764.

 

 

 

sunshinenbrick wrote:

In response to post #28740509.

 

 

 

Mr. Dave wrote: RE: Bethesda believing they have a claim on all mods.

I can make a mod without using one single thing Bethesda created. I make my own content, every pixel and every polygon, then I use third party tools to implement them. So how is it Bethesda should profit from this? They should be paying me for increasing sales of their games. After all, I only have the largest all original mod out for Skyrim, and my franchise, Bob's Armory, has been so extremely popular for Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim that entire groups of sub mods have been created around it. Bethesda didn't make Bob's Armory. I did. So how is it they should get a cut? In some businesses, if you walk in demanding an implausible cut from someone's net gains, you get shot. Smells like organized crime to me.

 

Anyway, to the subject at hand.

I am personally not fond at all of the newly implemented donation changes. I get spammy pop ups all over the place asking for donations now, when that never happened before. And the offensive part is that these people did NOT create the content they are shoving pop ups in my face for. Why is it, when I have to download some random follower mod to make sure it isn't crediting someone else for my work (happens around 4 times a week actually), I get spammed with multiple donate pop ups, then find my work included without credits? My work is uploaded for FREE. So why should anyone be able to demand money for something I made?

 

I think the original system with the single donate button up where the track, endorse, etc. buttons are should be the limit. And the more I am spammed with donate buttons from people who did not create the work, but only downloaded it and re uploaded it, the more vehemently I feel about this. I don't have patience for people trying to profit off riding my, or anyone else's coat tails anymore.

Simple. Bob's Armory is still derived from Skyrim. Without Skyrim, what is the mod? A collection of random bits you can't actually do much with.

 

Porting them to some other format means they no longer function in Skyrim.

 

It's not exactly hard to understand how derivative works work.

 

As for people stealing your stuff, report it. Nothing will happen if you don't and getting upset that it happens when you don't act on it isn't logical.

I agree with both sides of this arguement as the debate between IP and labour is one that needs to be had.

It does work both ways as it is reasonable to argue that ideas have been 'borrowed' from modders, by developers, over the years... and profit has been made from it.

A lot has to be said for non-financial compesation eg. gifts, official recognition and credit, promotion and sponsorship. A great deal of this revolves around mutual respect, for the idea and for the work that goes into realising it - these games are designed with the added value of modding in mind.

Unfortunately it seems that the monetary value has become the way in which people are coerced into showing 'respect' for things... hmmm... but this seems to be endemic the world over :confused:

I believe in free spirit of modding like you, but what some people believe is just downright illegal and they give far too much credit to Bethesda for no reason.

 

I as a modder do not want any monetary compensation for my work, but at the same time, I don't like the fact that some people imply Bethesda holds copyright over my work. They don't, that's a legal fact.

 

:ermm:

 

No. They (Bethesda) do own everything that is made using any tool that is derived from CK or the game assets. You own the right to participate in the usage of the game and creation tool.

 

 

While this is utterly true under current law (although regional law may still rule in the modder's favour) there is a HUGE amount of grey area.

 

My brother is a music producer so I have learnt a little about this from discussing (arguing) with him. If someone makes a song using Cubase then the only thing that differenciates between being able to make money off it or not is the licence agreement. The labour put into it is not owned by Cubase. This is where there is a difference between IP and labour.

 

This even goes so far as doing a 'remix' of a song, there are certain things that cannot be copyrighted... a 4/4 beat for example. Used by many but is a fundamental part of the industry. Now of course there is a lot of discrepancies between this and blatently ripping off another song and claiming for your own... but its all down to paperwork and what stands in law.

 

Modding is different because it is a relatively new artform/career and not only has there been very few, if any cases, brought before a judge by now, there is equally little paperwork surrounding it. Furthermore the paperwork that supports either side of a case sometimes only goes as far as the money behind it can.

 

It is blatant that Beth has the IP for Skyrim and the tools to make things for it, however it is at least debatable to claim that because of this they actually own a modder's IP when they think of some ingeneous idea that Beth never thought of, release it and then people buy loads of caopies of the game because of the mod...

 

Like I said, these are uncharted waters in many respect and the industry of virtual worlds is going to continue ripping the lid off this can of worms for many years to come until the 'unwritten' rules that are prevelant in other industries become part of the social psyche.

 

 

You are right it is grey. At least in the U.S. There have been no litmus test court cases on this in any way at all. Until that happens we really won't know what all that legal jargon means.

[gezegond]

In response to post #28749744.

sunshinenbrick wrote:

 

 

In response to post #28747764.

sunshinenbrick wrote:

In response to post #28740509.

Mr. Dave wrote: RE: Bethesda believing they have a claim on all mods.
I can make a mod without using one single thing Bethesda created. I make my own content, every pixel and every polygon, then I use third party tools to implement them. So how is it Bethesda should profit from this? They should be paying me for increasing sales of their games. After all, I only have the largest all original mod out for Skyrim, and my franchise, Bob's Armory, has been so extremely popular for Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim that entire groups of sub mods have been created around it. Bethesda didn't make Bob's Armory. I did. So how is it they should get a cut? In some businesses, if you walk in demanding an implausible cut from someone's net gains, you get shot. Smells like organized crime to me.

Anyway, to the subject at hand.
I am personally not fond at all of the newly implemented donation changes. I get spammy pop ups all over the place asking for donations now, when that never happened before. And the offensive part is that these people did NOT create the content they are shoving pop ups in my face for. Why is it, when I have to download some random follower mod to make sure it isn't crediting someone else for my work (happens around 4 times a week actually), I get spammed with multiple donate pop ups, then find my work included without credits? My work is uploaded for FREE. So why should anyone be able to demand money for something I made?

I think the original system with the single donate button up where the track, endorse, etc. buttons are should be the limit. And the more I am spammed with donate buttons from people who did not create the work, but only downloaded it and re uploaded it, the more vehemently I feel about this. I don't have patience for people trying to profit off riding my, or anyone else's coat tails anymore.

Simple. Bob's Armory is still derived from Skyrim. Without Skyrim, what is the mod? A collection of random bits you can't actually do much with.

Porting them to some other format means they no longer function in Skyrim.

It's not exactly hard to understand how derivative works work.

As for people stealing your stuff, report it. Nothing will happen if you don't and getting upset that it happens when you don't act on it isn't logical.

I agree with both sides of this arguement as the debate between IP and labour is one that needs to be had.

It does work both ways as it is reasonable to argue that ideas have been 'borrowed' from modders, by developers, over the years... and profit has been made from it.

A lot has to be said for non-financial compesation eg. gifts, official recognition and credit, promotion and sponsorship. A great deal of this revolves around mutual respect, for the idea and for the work that goes into realising it - these games are designed with the added value of modding in mind.

Unfortunately it seems that the monetary value has become the way in which people are coerced into showing 'respect' for things... hmmm... but this seems to be endemic the world over :confused:

I believe in free spirit of modding like you, but what some people believe is just downright illegal and they give far too much credit to Bethesda for no reason.

I as a modder do not want any monetary compensation for my work, but at the same time, I don't like the fact that some people imply Bethesda holds copyright over my work. They don't, that's a legal fact.

 

:ermm:

 

No. They (Bethesda) do own everything that is made using any tool that is derived from CK or the game assets. You own the right to participate in the usage of the game and creation tool.

 

 

While this is utterly true under current law (although regional law may still rule in the modder's favour) there is a HUGE amount of grey area.

 

My brother is a music producer so I have learnt a little about this from discussing (arguing) with him. If someone makes a song using Cubase then the only thing that differenciates between being able to make money off it or not is the licence agreement. The labour put into it is not owned by Cubase. This is where there is a difference between IP and labour.

 

This even goes so far as doing a 'remix' of a song, there are certain things that cannot be copyrighted... a 4/4 beat for example. Used by many but is a fundamental part of the industry. Now of course there is a lot of leg-room between this and blatently ripping off another song and claiming for your own... but its all down to paperwork and what stands in law.

 

Modding is different because it is a relatively new artform/career and not only has there been very few, if any cases, brought before a judge by now, there is equally little paperwork surrounding it. Furthermore the paperwork that supports either side of a case sometimes only goes as far as the money behind it can.

 

It is blatant that Beth has the IP for Skyrim and the tools to make things for it, however it is at least debatable to the claim that because of this they actually own a modder's IP when they think of some ingeneous idea that Beth never thought of, release it and then people buy loads of caopies of the game because of the mod...

 

Like I said, these are uncharted waters in many respect and the industry of virtual worlds is going to continue ripping the lid off this can of worms for many years to come until the 'unwritten' rules that are prevelant in other industries become part of the social psyche.

 

EDIT: Hell the developers and companies everywhere spend most of the year in court rooms wrangling over these things. Its not clear cut.

There is absolutely nothing "utterly true" or even "grey area" or "unwritten rule" about this. Go talk with your brother again. License agreements can not revert or change laws. Bethesda can not use a license agreement to claim copyright over something they don't have.

Unless you are using Skyrim's assets, or using assets derived from Skyrim assets, then you're not breaking Skyrim's copyright.
Unless you use characters, settings, or narrative that is a part of Skyrim's intellectual property, you're not infringing on their IP rights.
Unless you use "Skyrim" or other trademarks in your mod's name, you're not infringing on Bethesda's trademark.

These are facts. They're not something you can debate. There's nothing vague or unwritten about them.
The only thing that is vague is exactly how much a certain license agreement clause could be enforced. However it is not debatable that they can not override a nation's laws, including copyright law.

So the only thing we are not absolutely sure of, is whether modders are allowed to make money using something made with creation kit.

If the mod is not made with creation kit, they 100% can. If their mod is made with creation kit, whether they can monetize it or not, they still hold copyright over their own work. Bethesda for example, can not just download a mod and claim it as their own and sell it as DLC, because they don't own its copyright.

EDIT: I also want to highlight the fact that this is not even Bethesda's position. Bethesda has never claimed copyright over any of the mods. This is just some pure nonsense entirely made up by certain members of the community who lack knowledge in this area. Edited September 16, 2015 by gezegond

[sunshinenbrick]

 

In response to post #28749744.

 

 

 

sunshinenbrick wrote:

In response to post #28747764.

 

 

 

sunshinenbrick wrote:

In response to post #28740509.

 

 

 

Mr. Dave wrote: RE: Bethesda believing they have a claim on all mods.

I can make a mod without using one single thing Bethesda created. I make my own content, every pixel and every polygon, then I use third party tools to implement them. So how is it Bethesda should profit from this? They should be paying me for increasing sales of their games. After all, I only have the largest all original mod out for Skyrim, and my franchise, Bob's Armory, has been so extremely popular for Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim that entire groups of sub mods have been created around it. Bethesda didn't make Bob's Armory. I did. So how is it they should get a cut? In some businesses, if you walk in demanding an implausible cut from someone's net gains, you get shot. Smells like organized crime to me.

 

Anyway, to the subject at hand.

I am personally not fond at all of the newly implemented donation changes. I get spammy pop ups all over the place asking for donations now, when that never happened before. And the offensive part is that these people did NOT create the content they are shoving pop ups in my face for. Why is it, when I have to download some random follower mod to make sure it isn't crediting someone else for my work (happens around 4 times a week actually), I get spammed with multiple donate pop ups, then find my work included without credits? My work is uploaded for FREE. So why should anyone be able to demand money for something I made?

 

I think the original system with the single donate button up where the track, endorse, etc. buttons are should be the limit. And the more I am spammed with donate buttons from people who did not create the work, but only downloaded it and re uploaded it, the more vehemently I feel about this. I don't have patience for people trying to profit off riding my, or anyone else's coat tails anymore.

Simple. Bob's Armory is still derived from Skyrim. Without Skyrim, what is the mod? A collection of random bits you can't actually do much with.

 

Porting them to some other format means they no longer function in Skyrim.

 

It's not exactly hard to understand how derivative works work.

 

As for people stealing your stuff, report it. Nothing will happen if you don't and getting upset that it happens when you don't act on it isn't logical.

I agree with both sides of this arguement as the debate between IP and labour is one that needs to be had.

It does work both ways as it is reasonable to argue that ideas have been 'borrowed' from modders, by developers, over the years... and profit has been made from it.

A lot has to be said for non-financial compesation eg. gifts, official recognition and credit, promotion and sponsorship. A great deal of this revolves around mutual respect, for the idea and for the work that goes into realising it - these games are designed with the added value of modding in mind.

Unfortunately it seems that the monetary value has become the way in which people are coerced into showing 'respect' for things... hmmm... but this seems to be endemic the world over :confused:

I believe in free spirit of modding like you, but what some people believe is just downright illegal and they give far too much credit to Bethesda for no reason.

 

I as a modder do not want any monetary compensation for my work, but at the same time, I don't like the fact that some people imply Bethesda holds copyright over my work. They don't, that's a legal fact.

:ermm:

No. They (Bethesda) do own everything that is made using any tool that is derived from CK or the game assets. You own the right to participate in the usage of the game and creation tool.

While this is utterly true under current law (although regional law may still rule in the modder's favour) there is a HUGE amount of grey area.

My brother is a music producer so I have learnt a little about this from discussing (arguing) with him. If someone makes a song using Cubase then the only thing that differenciates between being able to make money off it or not is the licence agreement. The labour put into it is not owned by Cubase. This is where there is a difference between IP and labour.

This even goes so far as doing a 'remix' of a song, there are certain things that cannot be copyrighted... a 4/4 beat for example. Used by many but is a fundamental part of the industry. Now of course there is a lot of leg-room between this and blatently ripping off another song and claiming for your own... but its all down to paperwork and what stands in law.

Modding is different because it is a relatively new artform/career and not only has there been very few, if any cases, brought before a judge by now, there is equally little paperwork surrounding it. Furthermore the paperwork that supports either side of a case sometimes only goes as far as the money behind it can.

It is blatant that Beth has the IP for Skyrim and the tools to make things for it, however it is at least debatable to the claim that because of this they actually own a modder's IP when they think of some ingeneous idea that Beth never thought of, release it and then people buy loads of caopies of the game because of the mod...

Like I said, these are uncharted waters in many respect and the industry of virtual worlds is going to continue ripping the lid off this can of worms for many years to come until the 'unwritten' rules that are prevelant in other industries become part of the social psyche.

EDIT: Hell the developers and companies everywhere spend most of the year in court rooms wrangling over these things. Its not clear cut.

There is absolutely nothing "utterly true" or even "grey area" or "unwritten rule" about this. Go talk with your brother again. License agreements can not revert or change laws. Bethesda can not use a license agreement to claim copyright over something they don't have.

 

Unless you are using Skyrim's assets, or using assets derived from Skyrim assets, then you're not breaking Skyrim's copyright.

Unless you use characters, settings, or narrative that is a part of Skyrim's intellectual property, you're not infringing on their IP rights.

Unless you use "Skyrim" or other trademarks in your mod's name, you're not infringing on Bethesda's trademark.

 

These are facts. They're not something you can debate. There's nothing vague or unwritten about them.

The only thing that is vague is exactly how much a certain license agreement clause could be enforced. However it is not debatable that they can not override a nation's laws, including copyright law.

 

So the only thing we are not absolutely sure of, is whether modders are allowed to make money using something made with creation kit.

 

If the mod is not made with creation kit, they 100% can. If their mod is made with creation kit, whether they can monetize it or not, they still hold copyright over their own work. Bethesda for example, can not just download a mod and claim it as their own and sell it as DLC, because they don't own its copyright.

 

 

What is fact and what holds up in court are sometimes two different things. Sad but true.

 

EDIT: Its been done (quietly) and you make a good point that may crop up if they reintroduce the platform with the next game.

[gezegond]

In response to post #28750109.

sunshinenbrick wrote:

 

In response to post #28749744.

sunshinenbrick wrote:

In response to post #28747764.

sunshinenbrick wrote:

In response to post #28740509.

Mr. Dave wrote: RE: Bethesda believing they have a claim on all mods.
I can make a mod without using one single thing Bethesda created. I make my own content, every pixel and every polygon, then I use third party tools to implement them. So how is it Bethesda should profit from this? They should be paying me for increasing sales of their games. After all, I only have the largest all original mod out for Skyrim, and my franchise, Bob's Armory, has been so extremely popular for Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim that entire groups of sub mods have been created around it. Bethesda didn't make Bob's Armory. I did. So how is it they should get a cut? In some businesses, if you walk in demanding an implausible cut from someone's net gains, you get shot. Smells like organized crime to me.

Anyway, to the subject at hand.
I am personally not fond at all of the newly implemented donation changes. I get spammy pop ups all over the place asking for donations now, when that never happened before. And the offensive part is that these people did NOT create the content they are shoving pop ups in my face for. Why is it, when I have to download some random follower mod to make sure it isn't crediting someone else for my work (happens around 4 times a week actually), I get spammed with multiple donate pop ups, then find my work included without credits? My work is uploaded for FREE. So why should anyone be able to demand money for something I made?

I think the original system with the single donate button up where the track, endorse, etc. buttons are should be the limit. And the more I am spammed with donate buttons from people who did not create the work, but only downloaded it and re uploaded it, the more vehemently I feel about this. I don't have patience for people trying to profit off riding my, or anyone else's coat tails anymore.

Simple. Bob's Armory is still derived from Skyrim. Without Skyrim, what is the mod? A collection of random bits you can't actually do much with.

Porting them to some other format means they no longer function in Skyrim.

It's not exactly hard to understand how derivative works work.

As for people stealing your stuff, report it. Nothing will happen if you don't and getting upset that it happens when you don't act on it isn't logical.

I agree with both sides of this arguement as the debate between IP and labour is one that needs to be had.

It does work both ways as it is reasonable to argue that ideas have been 'borrowed' from modders, by developers, over the years... and profit has been made from it.

A lot has to be said for non-financial compesation eg. gifts, official recognition and credit, promotion and sponsorship. A great deal of this revolves around mutual respect, for the idea and for the work that goes into realising it - these games are designed with the added value of modding in mind.

Unfortunately it seems that the monetary value has become the way in which people are coerced into showing 'respect' for things... hmmm... but this seems to be endemic the world over :confused:

I believe in free spirit of modding like you, but what some people believe is just downright illegal and they give far too much credit to Bethesda for no reason.

I as a modder do not want any monetary compensation for my work, but at the same time, I don't like the fact that some people imply Bethesda holds copyright over my work. They don't, that's a legal fact.

:ermm:

No. They (Bethesda) do own everything that is made using any tool that is derived from CK or the game assets. You own the right to participate in the usage of the game and creation tool.

While this is utterly true under current law (although regional law may still rule in the modder's favour) there is a HUGE amount of grey area.

My brother is a music producer so I have learnt a little about this from discussing (arguing) with him. If someone makes a song using Cubase then the only thing that differenciates between being able to make money off it or not is the licence agreement. The labour put into it is not owned by Cubase. This is where there is a difference between IP and labour.

This even goes so far as doing a 'remix' of a song, there are certain things that cannot be copyrighted... a 4/4 beat for example. Used by many but is a fundamental part of the industry. Now of course there is a lot of leg-room between this and blatently ripping off another song and claiming for your own... but its all down to paperwork and what stands in law.

Modding is different because it is a relatively new artform/career and not only has there been very few, if any cases, brought before a judge by now, there is equally little paperwork surrounding it. Furthermore the paperwork that supports either side of a case sometimes only goes as far as the money behind it can.

It is blatant that Beth has the IP for Skyrim and the tools to make things for it, however it is at least debatable to the claim that because of this they actually own a modder's IP when they think of some ingeneous idea that Beth never thought of, release it and then people buy loads of caopies of the game because of the mod...

Like I said, these are uncharted waters in many respect and the industry of virtual worlds is going to continue ripping the lid off this can of worms for many years to come until the 'unwritten' rules that are prevelant in other industries become part of the social psyche.

EDIT: Hell the developers and companies everywhere spend most of the year in court rooms wrangling over these things. Its not clear cut.

There is absolutely nothing "utterly true" or even "grey area" or "unwritten rule" about this. Go talk with your brother again. License agreements can not revert or change laws. Bethesda can not use a license agreement to claim copyright over something they don't have.

Unless you are using Skyrim's assets, or using assets derived from Skyrim assets, then you're not breaking Skyrim's copyright.
Unless you use characters, settings, or narrative that is a part of Skyrim's intellectual property, you're not infringing on their IP rights.
Unless you use "Skyrim" or other trademarks in your mod's name, you're not infringing on Bethesda's trademark.

These are facts. They're not something you can debate. There's nothing vague or unwritten about them.
The only thing that is vague is exactly how much a certain license agreement clause could be enforced. However it is not debatable that they can not override a nation's laws, including copyright law.

So the only thing we are not absolutely sure of, is whether modders are allowed to make money using something made with creation kit.

If the mod is not made with creation kit, they 100% can. If their mod is made with creation kit, whether they can monetize it or not, they still hold copyright over their own work. Bethesda for example, can not just download a mod and claim it as their own and sell it as DLC, because they don't own its copyright.

 

 

What is fact and what holds up in court are sometimes two different things. Sad but true.

That's another pure nonsense. Why don't you stop breathing then? You can't know whether breathing is legal or not unless you go to a court about it, so just to be sure don't breathe.