Who are you voting for?

[Aurielius]

OK, we have had fun, we have been witty and at times sophomoric.

 

The main issues at stake which will influence whom I eventually vote for and their relative priority.

-Foreign Policy / Terrorism

-Economy / National Debt / Trade Deficit

-Immigration / Border Control

-SCOTUS

 

Why not debate the issues instead of the personalities?

[Lisnpuppy]

Well as the initial OP post was "who are you voting for" and a picture of Odin was presented as the candidate of choice I think we have stayed fairly sync.

 

I would, even though there are pages of debate, say another thread may be a better place for this. We have 26 pages here and if we are just going to reiterate what has been said here and there, having a new go at it may be more practical.

 

I offer this only as a suggestion. Should y'all want to keep on trucking that is ok by me. I'm just throwing it out there.

[sunshinenbrick]

Doesn't the very existence of an established elite show that any form of socialism is just an illusion?

 

Also, if Trump wants to topple these powers-that-be and give it back to the 'everyday American', so to speak, doesn't that actually make him also a socialist?

[Aurielius]

Well as the initial OP post was "who are you voting for" and a picture of Odin was presented as the candidate of choice I think we have stayed fairly sync.

 

I would, even though there are pages of debate, say another thread may be a better place for this. We have 26 pages here and if we are just going to reiterate what has been said here and there, having a new go at it may be more practical.

 

I offer this only as a suggestion. Should y'all want to keep on trucking that is ok by me. I'm just throwing it out there.

Start a serious thread and I'll migrate..... :thumbsup:

[WursWaldo]

Start a serious thread and I'll migrate..... :thumbsup:

The 'serious thread' concept died on Nexus in 2012. I've read the old debate threads.

 

Doesn't the very existence of an established elite show that any form of socialism is just an illusion?

Also, if Trump wants to topple these powers-that-be and give it back to the 'everyday American', so to speak, doesn't that actually make him also a socialist?

Yes, we all have some socialist ideals. We also have some Nazi ideals. Universal health care and life time pensions were promises made by Hitler. If I support those things does it make me a mass murdering Nazi? There is a delineation that you are well aware of. You're a smart dude so I know that positional parody isn't something you're not familiar with. Equality of outcome and equality or opportunity doesn't fall into that range. *pokes you hard* We both know this.

Edited March 26, 2016 by WursWaldo

[sunshinenbrick]

 

Doesn't the very existence of an established elite show that any form of socialism is just an illusion?

Also, if Trump wants to topple these powers-that-be and give it back to the 'everyday American', so to speak, doesn't that actually make him also a socialist?

Yes, we all have some socialist ideals. We also have some Nazi ideals. Universal health care and life time pensions were promises made by Hitler. If I support those things does it make me a mass murdering Nazi? There is a delineation that you are well aware of. You're a smart dude so I know that positional parody isn't something you're not familiar with. Equality of outcome and equality or opportunity doesn't fall into that range. *pokes you hard* We both know this.

 

 

The full name of the Nazi Party is the National Socialist (German) Workers' Party which technically makes it a left-wing extremist party, not much unlike the very Communist Party they tried to take control of in Russia.

 

The clever way in which politics can divert attention like a magic trick means that we must be careful to not allow their narrative to dictate our own. 'Socialism' (as seen with the Third Reich) can be used to serve an ever smaller and smaller social class. Go further and further down this path and things suddenly flip into an essentially right-wing fascist style ideology, which we are led to believe the Nazi Party was. The idea that the right are always the conservative, or even nationalistic party, is sometimes deceiving, as is the common misunderstanding that one cannot become the other i.e. it all depends on the context you put it in.

 

Yet, as you suggest, the issues around representing a people-driven (real) democracy and the ability to hold government to account, is something that may 'trump' everything else (pardon the pun), even if it is still an illusion. Perhaps ironically, the final hurdle for the unbridled 'capitalist dream' will be to try escape the very authoritarianism that has allowed it to flourish so.

[Harbringe]

Doesn't the very existence of an established elite show that any form of socialism is just an illusion?

 

Also, if Trump wants to topple these powers-that-be and give it back to the 'everyday American', so to speak, doesn't that actually make him also a socialist?

 

Yay a prize to you for elucidating the contradiction. :wallbash:

 

 

The full name of the Nazi Party is the National Socialist (German) Workers' Party which technically makes it a left-wing extremist party, not much unlike the very Communist Party they tried to take control of in Russia.

 

The clever way in which politics can divert attention like a magic trick means that we must be careful to not allow their narrative to dictate our own. 'Socialism' (as seen with the Third Reich) can be used to serve an ever smaller and smaller social class. Go further and further down this path and things suddenly flip into an essentially right-wing fascist style ideology, which we are led to believe the Nazi Party was. The idea that the right are always the conservative, or even nationalistic party, is sometimes deceiving, as is the common misunderstanding that one cannot become the other i.e. it all depends on the context you put it in.

 

Its not what you label yourself that defines you , but what you do , what you implement. The Nazi/ Fascist states of the 1930"s - 40's were in no way socialistic. They were purely state/corporatist merged entities . The word fascist is actually a misnomer , prior to its adoption it was known as corporatism and only came about as fascist because Mussolini thought the fasces (an ancient type of Roman axe) would make for a good symbol.

 

If people use the logic of labelism as their core rational , then you can lead yoursefl down paths such as The Peoples Republic of China being some form of democracy merely because it has the word republic in it and of course thats what the communist authorities of China like to tell their people but it ain't true.

[Harbringe]

Well this is kinda special.

 

In Portland Oregon there is a local quirk (actually most Oregonians know of it) called "put a bird on it" . Basically if you need to brighten/decorate something up you put a bird on it.

 

So Bernie Sanders is at a rally of over 17000 and this happens and the crowd jumps to their feet over it.

 

 

He also took Washinton and Alaska caucuses and is waiting on Hawaii

 

Update: Ok this might be getting interesting For Bernie to have a chance of beating Hillary it was calculated he would have to win 58% of all remaining delegates til the final 2 on the Democratic primary trail , those being New York and California.

 

Well he took Alaska at 79% , Hawaii at + 70% (not sure final number) and Washington at 72%. Its possible if he keeps getting numbers like this (and Alan Grayson has said the ground would favor Sanders after March 15) that we could be looking at a contested Democratic convention at the end , similar to what some Republicans are working for at their convention. That would be a historic convention setting for both parties.

 

Would that not be weird if what happened to Hillary in 2008 was to repeat itself , when Obama came from behind to beat her.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Harbringe

[Ihoe]

Well this is kinda special.

 

In Portland Oregon there is a local quirk (actually most Oregonians know of it) called "put a bird on it" . Basically if you need to brighten/decorate something up you put a bird on it.

 

So Bernie Sanders is at a rally of over 17000 and this happens and the crowd jumps to their feet over it.

 

 

He also took Washinton and Alaska caucuses and is waiting on Hawaii

 

Update: Ok this might be getting interesting For Bernie to have a chance of beating Hillary it was calculated he would have to win 58% of all remaining delegates til the final 2 on the Democratic primary trail , those being New York and California.

 

Well he took Alaska at 79% , Hawaii at + 70% (not sure final number) and Washington at 72%. Its possible if he keeps getting numbers like this (and Alan Grayson has said the ground would favor Sanders after March 15) that we could be looking at a contested Democratic convention at the end , similar to what some Republicans are working for at their convention. That would be a historic convention setting for both parties.

 

Would that not be weird if what happened to Hillary in 2008 was to repeat itself , when Obama came from behind to beat her.

 

I really like Bernie's Ideas, I hope he doesn't end up empowering the regressive left too much, As it appears to be the case with Justin Trudeau somewhat.

[sunshinenbrick]

 

 

 

The full name of the Nazi Party is the National Socialist (German) Workers' Party which technically makes it a left-wing extremist party, not much unlike the very Communist Party they tried to take control of in Russia.

 

The clever way in which politics can divert attention like a magic trick means that we must be careful to not allow their narrative to dictate our own. 'Socialism' (as seen with the Third Reich) can be used to serve an ever smaller and smaller social class. Go further and further down this path and things suddenly flip into an essentially right-wing fascist style ideology, which we are led to believe the Nazi Party was. The idea that the right are always the conservative, or even nationalistic party, is sometimes deceiving, as is the common misunderstanding that one cannot become the other i.e. it all depends on the context you put it in.

Its not what you label yourself that defines you , but what you do , what you implement. The Nazi/ Fascist states of the 1930"s - 40's were in no way socialistic. They were purely state/corporatist merged entities . The word fascist is actually a misnomer , prior to its adoption it was known as corporatism and only came about as fascist because Mussolini thought the fasces (an ancient type of Roman axe) would make for a good symbol.

 

If people use the logic of labelism as their core rational , then you can lead yoursefl down paths such as The Peoples Republic of China being some form of democracy merely because it has the word republic in it and of course thats what the communist authorities of China like to tell their people but it ain't true.

It is indeed a case of emperor's clothes, but as much as those on the inside can be fooled, so can those on the outside follow false flags and be fed the facts so as to build a certain consensus.

 

If we look back over the last seven or so decades it brings into question exactly who 'won', and what legacies have been brought forward to our present day. The way in which, particularly, WWI and WWII were started and ended is wildly complex and the more you dig the more you find that a lot of people, some of whom have held great power, kinda liked the emperor's new groove and bared themselves as wolves in sheep clothing.

 

Whilst I like the idea of democracy, I am not totally convinced a system of multi-party 'hot potato' is any more accountable or responsible than those who are stuck in power. Having said that, as the outcome seems to end at much the same fork then perhaps a sanctuary does reside in 'knowing your enemy' and seeking a truth.