Proposal for new tag for "Offensive" mods(instead of removing them)

[tempwayne]

Hi all,

first of all, let me state at the outset that I'm strictly against discrimination of any kind. Racism, sexism, etc. are a strict no for me. Hell, I sided with the Railroad since I believe that even Artificial Intelligence can have feelings. Also, I try not to offend anyone, either on the internet, or face to face. I've not posted on NM before regarding a similar topic.

 

A summary for moderators/admin:

There are many of us who THINK that we do not get offended by any mod. However, we understand that you as the admins and moderators don't want Nexusmods to start hosting racist/other ultra-offensive content, because it lowers the reputation and character of the community as a whole. You have been taking care of removing such mods so far. There might be a number of mods which many of us are okay with, but several others aren't, and hence, you guys might be in a dilemma on whether to take them down. I'm suggesting that you instead tag them as "potentially offensive", and keep the takedowns for the really offensive mods. People who are slightly sensitive can stay away from the offensive tagged mods(just like some stay away from the adult section), while people who want slightly controversial(but mods that you deem aren't bad enough to throw out of the site) mods can look at those. This is NOT a request to stop taking down mods, or to ask you to take down mods. That is entirely up to you. Instead, use this method to make your life easier by warning people before they look at such content, or helping them stay away from such content, as well as giving more "resilient-minded"(can't think of a better word) people the content they want, within the bounds of the law and sanity.

 

A step by step process:

 

1. A mod is uploaded, and it's being reported as offensive.(No additional work for anyone)

2. A moderator takes a look at it, and decides "how offensive" the mod is. (No extra work)

3. If very offensive, delete it.(What you usually do)

4. If moderator thinks that it's offensive(with proper justification) only to some people and can exist on the site, put it in the "potentially offensive category", and don't delete it. In the current system, you would either choose to delete the mod, or retain it. Or, you can choose that it's not really offensive at all, and put it the "normal" category. (no extra work - just an extra choice)

5. Easy peasy!

 

Update 2:

The discussion repeatedly veers towards whether mods need to be taken down or not. That's not among my primary concerns. I'm pretty sure that some mods are going to be taken down, and this is non-negotiable(the Admin said that). If you think they shouldn't be, then start a separate thread(which some did). This thread is about adding a separate tag for those mods that maybe offensive to some people(within reason), and hence allow such mods to survive too(instead of deleting them straightaway). It's similar to adding an "adult" tag for mods that contain such content. Moderators do not have to worry about people who don't want to see such content stumbling across them, while people who want adult mods can still get the content that they want.

 

Update:

After this discussion, here's my suggestion:

presently, the more offensive(which, you agree is somewhat subjective) mods are straightaway taken down, while borderline offensive mods are visible to everyone. An alternative that I offer is:

1. Remove a mod if it is very offensive.

2. If there's considerable debate on whether it is offensive, do not take it down, but put it under the Offensive tag. Only people who are ready for this will see them, just like adult content(which is more clear in its definition, I guess).

 

Onward now: While I understand that Nexusmods is a privately owned site(and hence is not obliged to provide Freedom of Speech, etc.), the presence of several offensive mods, and their removal has ruffled a few feathers. Here's the situation as I see it:

1. One group of people feel that mods themselves are not content that influence real world(e.g. child killing mods do not mean that anyone installing/uploading them wants to kill children in real life), and hence their offensiveness is not something that should be grounds for them being taken down. Some offensive content are simply made in a lighter vein, perhaps like what Charlie Hebdo did, and can be enjoyed by people when it's in a video game, or a cartoon, or a movie.

2. A second group of people feel that the whole point of freedom of speech, is that even offensive content has to be freely shared (a.k.a I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it). Such people believe that any authority(public, or private) taking down content for any reason(unless it clearly incites violence) is indeed performing the act of censorship. Whether it is towards the benefit of humanity is irrelevant while answer the question of WHETHER it is censorship.

3. A third group of people feel that lot of people have deep emotional pains associated with certain topics(e.g. me being Indian, I would be terribly angry at mods that glorify the British colonial occupation of our country. In fact, even mutated cows being called Brahmin can be quite offensive to some people, since Brahmin is the name of a community of people, like Hispanic is.), and we must be inclusive of them. Arguments like "Don't like it, don't download it" might not hold water against some instances of this issue, since even looking at such imagery/content might cause uncomfortable/painful memories and feelings to surface in many of us.

 

I think that all the aforementioned groups have valid points in what they are trying to convey, and we as a community, must make our best efforts to accommodate them all to the best of our abilities. Here's what I propose(pretty obvious from the heading):

 

How about, we add a tag for mods that say whether they might be "offensive" to any group of people? The mod authors or moderators themselves can do this, and users who do not wish to see such content can tag block offensive content. Essentially, we're replacing the "take down a mod" process with "tag it as offensive". I'm assuming that most mod authors who make content that would be perceived as offensive would be pretty okay with their mod being tagged so.

The positives:

 

1. Nobody feels that there's any censorship on NM.

2. People who might be sensitive to such content can choose not to view them.

3. Everybody happy happy.

 

Some minor issues include:

 

1. Mod authors might intentionally refuse to tag their content as being offensive: That's what the moderators are for. Instead of taking down mods, they would simply be tagging them as offensive. I do not know whether tags in general can be added by all users(which may or may not be a good idea for the Offensive tag). Perhaps the moderators can have the final say on whether it is offensive or not, whenever they receive a number of reports.

2. Not all offensive content are offensive to all people. Here, I'm assuming that if a user decides to not block offensive content, he/she is ready to face the barrage of all such mods. While not a perfect solution, it is still a better reconciliation of the conflicting ideas I've described above, than simply taking such mods down.

3. Some mods simply should not exist.

 

Adding such a feature wouldn't be terribly difficult, would it?

What do you all think?

 

P.S.: This is not a political discussion. I hope that the replies are more along the lines of whether such a feature be feasible(both technically, and in its success on implementation), and maybe, support/opposition for said feature.

Do vote in the topic poll!

P.P.S: Personally, I think that with freedom of speech comes great responsibility, and mod authors must refrain from generating content that is intentionally offensive. Why don't we all smile at each other and stop saying stuff we know will offend the other people? Never mind, this is beside the point.

Edited November 28, 2015 by tempwayne

[Deleted2948850User]

I agree with the whole freedom of speech thing, but I don't think it's feasible. If I had to guess, I'd say the Nexus can

be held accountable for any offensive content on their site and might not want to be affiliated with such content.

[tempwayne]

The accountable part comes in when Nexus might face legal troubles for hosting content, such as what happens when you host copyrighted content for illegal downloads. Facebook and Google+ take down offensive content only to avoid hurting peoples' feelings, right? Not because they are forbidden by law from hosting such content. Maybe a disclaimer that Nexusmods is not legally responsible for any offensive content would do the job? What I'm suggesting is slightly similar to what Call of Duty did for the No Russian mission in one of their games.

Maybe we can even disable viewing offensive content by default, and force users to switch it on themselves if they want to view such content?

One more thing: I'm assuming that when someone votes that it's not feasible, it means that they actually want such a system, but believe that it is not possible in terms of its implementation. In other words, if you think that such mods should be taken down, do not vote that the given system is not feasible.

[zaty1]

Offensive content still generates offensive comments / conversations. I "feel" most of the mods get pulled because OF that.

Nothing really wrong with historically accurate clothing and accessories IMO. All the flamebaiting banter that comes with it is.

There is absolutely zero reason for that to be spewing all over comment sections. The only real way to prevent that - is total

removal.

 

Grats on your nice, new and, shiny account.

Edited November 28, 2015 by zaty1

[Dark0ne]

We're not going to support work from Nazi sympathisers. Full-stop. Releasing a mod with the description "For fans of the Nazis" can die in a fire. End of.

[Deleted2948850User]

So there's your answer. Even if a disclaimer might do the job when it comes accountability, they don't want to be affiliated

with certain content. And Dark0ne, I completely agree you don't want to be affiliated with that. Even with freedom of speech,

I wouldn't want that either =/

Edited November 28, 2015 by Guest

[worcsdesign]

I'm all down for free speech, however free HATE speech is unacceptable

[tempwayne]

Offensive content still generates offensive comments / conversations. I "feel" most of the mods get pulled because OF that.

Nothing really wrong with historically accurate clothing and accessories IMO. All the flamebaiting banter that comes with it is.

There is absolutely zero reason for that to be spewing all over comment sections. The only real way to prevent that - is total

removal.

 

Grats on your nice, new and, shiny account.

 

Yeah, new account since I don't remember stuff that can help me recover my old account. :D

Generation of offensive comments itself shouldn't be a direct reason for pulling down mods. If a few users are posting offensive comments that directly attack people, then those accounts can be banned separately. Even the killable children mod(which was not taken down by the moderators) had a pretty venomous comment thread. A lot of mods that are slightly controversial have comments filled with rage. The thing is, when it's very difficult to draw a line, why don't we take the route that fulfills everyone's wishes?

 

 

We're not going to support work from Nazi sympathisers. Full-stop. Releasing a mod with the description "For fans of the Nazis" can die in a fire. End of.

 

Shouldn't users decide that? Isn't that the point of a community website? I understand that Nexusmods pays for hosting content, but don't nexusmods users contribute to the site immeasurably, and hence, shouldn't THEY collectively make a choice to boycott such mods? Trust me, I do feel deeply offended every time someone says bulls*** supporting the Nazis, but shouldn't we just leave it to each individual to refuse to support or endorse(by downloading) such content?

I'm guessing that most of us hate Nazis, and it'll be a tiny bunch of closed people who would be sharing these within themselves. Every time we censor evil content, we are just letting such hateful people portray themselves as victims of oppression. Instead, why don't we let them upload their mods and discover that nobody likes their stuff? It's different from letting people freely spamming forums with offensive content, since you have to open a mod to look at the content in contrast to a forum where one can simply create spam threads/posts.

 

 

 

I'm all down for free speech, however free HATE speech is unacceptable

 

 

I agree. We cannot simply watch people abuse other people/races/communities/etc., but I'm specifically talking about mods on the borderline, like say exploding heads for kids, adding Nazis as a faction, etc. Mods where the author clearly says things like "Haha, f*** you all, I'm trolling the mod site by posting this Nazi flag" are totally against the spirit of the community, but it's the gray area where we should avoid unilateral banning.

Edited November 28, 2015 by tempwayne

[ShinraStrife]

Offensive content is still offensive. As a person of Russian background I have a big problem with both USSR and nazi promoting material. I have no problem with WW2 style clothing for historical accuracy sake. Avoiding getting into politics, both sides were said to have been oppressive and simply put, supporters of these offensive parties shouldn't be encouraged to take refuge at this site as long as they have their mods listed under a tag. Bad idea.

[tempwayne]

There are several mods for which we may not have such clear distinctions. For example, mods that add slavery will be offensive to many communities. However, New Vegas itself had slavery in it, and the player himself/herself could choose to endorse a fictional faction that was firmly believing that slavery and treating women like cattle was the way forward for overcoming the apocalypse. What should our response be if a mod that allows the player to run a slave trade comes out? Many would argue that in a world without civilization like the Fallout universe, slavery is only expected, while others would point out the hurtful effect it may have on many people. In response to the "killable children" mod, a parent replied that he/she felt very offended that people would go to the extent of creating such a mod to a game. What do we do in such cases that aren't black and white?

 

Offensive content is still offensive. As a person of Russian background I have a big problem with both USSR and nazi promoting material. I have no problem with WW2 style clothing for historical accuracy sake. Avoiding getting into politics, both sides were said to have been oppressive and simply put, supporters of these offensive parties shouldn't be encouraged to take refuge at this site as long as they have their mods listed under a tag. Bad idea.

 

Like you said, when USSR and Nazi clothing is added only for the sake of historical accuracy, why remove it? Why not just classify it as offensive? There are a lot of people who would hate the Nazis, and would still like to add Nazi mods(maybe so that they can destroy a fictional Nazi settlement?)

Maybe you can ban the aggressively offensive mods that clearly show that their intent is to troll teh forums and push buttons, for instance, a mod that says "Kill the Indians!". (but personally, I would like downloading and choosing to view such mods to be left to each user).

Edited November 28, 2015 by tempwayne