Nuclear apocalypse in real life.

[PhunkyMunky]

EDIT: Following up on that. Nukes will never be used as an EMP weapon. They will only ever be used as a weapon of destruction as no matter what you cannot avoid the self inflicted damage with modern day high yield nuclear weapons or even the same model of nuke used during world war 2(Trivia they are still racking up kills to this day). And also all your troops would die from "nuke water" and fallout(arguable though due to lack of REAL tests with nuclear weapons...)

 

http://www.newsmax.com/KenTimmerman/super-emp-emp-northkorea-nuke/2011/06/16/id/400260

 

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34444

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-altitude_nuclear_explosion

 

Take a gander at these links. I spent 9 years in the Army, and while nukes was not my forte, I was a grunt, it is basic nuke strategy to use the EMP effects of nukes first strike. This disrupts communications, the power grid, and a nuked country is of no use if you want to occupy that ground. More and more the threat of the EMP use of nukes is increasing. This makes sense. If you EMP'd someone then invaded that country, you wouldn't have to worry about special equipment. Now, this is not to say nukes on the ground would not happen. Military bases, major cities, ports, and etc would be prime targets. But you can pretty much send someone back to the 1850's by just EMPing the whole continent. If EMP from a normal nuke at say, 150 miles above the surface of the US, in the center, can cause enough damage to set us back a hundred years, why would you nuke the ground? Think about it. A nuke in a city would cause millions of deaths. That's a given. Nukes at high altitude.... How many would die in the first 6 months? Vehicles don't work, circuitry is burnt out and vehicles that don't work can't haul food. Tractors that don't work can't plow fields or harvest crops. Power grids that are down don't power furnaces. Stores only carry 3 days worth of food, after EMP, that'll be gone in 10 hours during panic and looting. Law Enforcement would be ineffective, so gangs and such would be able to go do what they wish. And think about how many people would be completely lost without computers, Ipad, TV, Radio, cars, buses, hot water, gas or electrical heat...... It goes on and on. The damage from high altitude nukes and EMP are far more devastating than nuking Washington DC.

 

I've studied a bit LOL. Trust me on this. And the fact of the matter is, with nut jobs in North Korea, Iran, and stolen russian nukes after the Soviet Collapse, the chances of it happening are even greater than between the 50's and 80's.

[ModelV]

Yes you have explained why your country is so vulnerable to nuclear attack and EMP weapons. Not every country is that inefficient and dependent on such technology. EMP damage is also not as hard to repair as one might think. Its a bit outside normal technical know-how but do-able if you know what your doing.

 

Your also forgetting 2 facts. 1 you do not lose effectiveness of EMP by delivering a nuke to a target. 2 getting a nuke in that range still delivers the radioactive play load to the area unless you can specifically make a nuke designed for this. Most(I think its safe to say 99% of them.) arent designed for that.

 

There is no logic in not using the nukes raw destructive force as it doesnt give you any advantages.

[PhunkyMunky]

Massive EMP damage CAN be repaired in a few years time. I agree with that. What I am saying is it's strategy, and makes sense as a first strike, to use that EMP effect.

 

http://www.barking-moonbat.com/images/uploads/3_nukes_60_miles_high_EMP_areas.jpg

 

I was saying this is general strategy. If you can't communicate, if your systems can't track, if Radar doesn't work, if you have no power and no mobility, follow on nukes are much easier, and more effective, to get in. But due to nuclear fallout, everyone knows how bad that can be. We've seen Hiroshima and Nagasaki, nobody wants that. Invading a country, generally, if for the extension of power and taking of resources. Resources that are now part of nuclear waste are useless. Yes, radiation from a high altitude nuke will fall. And it will effect things, however, at that altitude it would end up wide spread, rather than concentrated to say, London, or Seattle. Fukishima happened in Japan and our est Coast was effected a bit. But it had spread out and was less a threat as a result. The space between the burst and the ground would dilute the effects. Less nukes could be used to render a nation useless.

 

I'm not arrogant enough to think my country impenetrable. Obviously things slipped through the cracks on 9/11 and months leading up to that. And in that light, anybody could walk across our southern border and let one off at that, IMO. And for a country like the US, where we depend a heck of a lot on technology, it would make it the end of the world as WE know it. Let something like that off in a country with less technology and they may merely shrug. Sure, we could rebuild but the panic and rioting, people living solely on machines would die, it would be terrible. And it would be that way quite a while. I mean, if someone can hijack a plane and fly it into a couple buildings, killing a total of over 3000 people, the unthinkable can happen as well.

 

But in places like Eastern Europe where manual labor is still widely used, in places not nearly as dependent on tech, it wouldn't take much to fix things. I agree with that part. There are many places EMP wouldn't effect much. Even England, France, Germany.... Many of these places would be effected badly. Awareness and preparation help minimize this, of course, and I'm very sure all of these countries have thought through these things and came up with a plan to handle it.

 

Heavy amounts of nukes on the ground would still be bad. Very bad. But it's now common knowledge tht too many of these could make the world nearly extinct (well, except cockroaches and such). This is why EMP's are now becoming the new WMD.

[ModelV]

...They arent WMDs. Well they still use the same acronym in some cases but they arent weapons of mass destruction.

 

Its true that as a first wave a nuke could jam all the defenses in theory but for the most part the location which the dummy nuke needs to get to is already well into the defensive grid.

 

The leadership of the countries that have Nuke's are generally known for heavy handedness and would likely never even consider using nukes in this way even if the tactic was feasible.

 

Also Id just like to add my country has more Technology then America(The only TV you will ever find here is a flat screen and we are well known for our high quality manufacturing.) and is still less vulnerable to EMPs. Its not just how much technology you have its how you use that technology. For example my country has a lot more localized food production and people simply able to grow their own food. Ironically power outages are more frequent here, they usually only last for a few minutes to an hour though.

[PhunkyMunky]

You are right, in that how one uses tech makes a world of difference. Also what makes a world of difference is culture. What I mean, here, is that when Japan had the quakes and tsunami, it seemed generally the people were pretty well put together. I am sure they had their fair share of social problems following that disaster, however it was absolutely nothing like the reaction to Hurricane Katrina. That place was absolute chaos and extremely violent. Same with the Rodney King riots we had in 1992 (or 3). And not all of the violence was done with guns, either. Google Reginald Denny and take a look at that video, no guns involved and more brutal than if they'd just shot the guy. It's simply the culture in some circles. Of course, we're not the only nation with this problem, Mexico, much of south america, places in Africa, and sometimes in Europe. Man! Europe knows how to RIOT!!!!

 

Many Americans are trying to go back to being more self sufficient, and this is good. Can't depend on the Government to have a proper response to major incidences. And we shouldn't! Some things happen on a scale too large to mount an immediate, good, response to, although Katrina could have gone much, much better.

 

We say WMD simply because an EMP attack on that scale would be massive destruction. No, not like chems, bio, or nukes on the ground. But just the sheer chaos from an entire country is damage enough. Heavy handedness I agree with. Especially the US at the moment, although I don't care to bring up politics really, here. But we have done quite a bit of sticking our nose where it doesn't belong, then stomping those that object to that. Can't keep that sort of thing up forever without someone getting a bit itchy over the big red button. We can all hope not, but just because these things are around, some idiot some day will indeed launch one of those nukes and then it's on.

 

In reality, everything about nuclear war strategy is theory. Since only 2 cities have been nuked in world history, we can only pull from that experience. Which, it looks, Fallout capitalized on.

[phoenix777]

3 things.

1. To make a water purifier is actually simple tech that requires NO electric, the main thing you need is activated carbon which is easy to get. The quickest and safest way to get purified water is boiling and condensing, you can then further filter it. Some simple guides on getting water; Dew and rain collection (rain being more dangerous following fallout), condensation collection, solar stills, water from snow and ice (also more dangerous following fallout), the bluer the ice the safer for drinking as it is old ice, Be suspicious of any pool with no green vegetation growing around it, or animal bones present as it is likely to be polluted.

 

2. I mentioned bunker not vault, in this country there are loads of disused cold war bunkers of which I know a lot of them inside and out. A bunker is blast protection and to block radiation you need lead, I work in nuclear reactors on occasion and trust me that is basically what a reactor chamber is, lead walls are used in X-ray rooms to block radiation and what do you think stops your microwave from frying you.

 

3. I mentioned airports - did I say functioning or military NO, most surviving airports would be small civilian airports. I was on about the lay of the land and possibly the radio communications could be repaired - also simple technology. If some parts of the world still had flight capability do you not think they would use it. Plus EMP mostly destroy equipment that is turned on, so any aircraft in salvageable condition that weren't in use at time of blasts would most likely still function.

 

Basic survival training can help in any situation but most skills would be of no use as they would be suddenly obsolete.

 

Also you have not answered my question, who are you????

And anyone can look stuff up on google, but if fallout happened google would be gone and you would be alone.

 

And to anyone who thinks having guns would save you just remember this, where are you going to get more ammo from and how long will that last. You need weapons you can craft which are silent and ammo you can reuse and craft more of, guns are noisy and will bring people. Even a silenced weapon isn't silent only muffled.

Edit: Be wary of everyone you meets as they will most likely kill you to take whatever supplies you might have.

Edited December 10, 2011 by phoenix777

[ModelV]

Recent bills past seem to be counter productive to self-sufficiency :| And personally Id be more worried about the local army and police forces then the normal citizens. Google occupy wall street police violence.

 

But yes this is all theory. You cant really do much testing with nuclear weapons and Im not even sure a scientist who knows what hes talking about can give you a straight answer about what happens when one these top of the line Nuclear weapons are used. Heck they may not even make a mushroom cloud anymore.

 

Personally I think the idea of this Nuclear apocalypse is a silly idea for many reasons. Small scale nuclear conflict? Likely, especially with the amount of ordinance Isreal is allowed to have and the amount of "missing" nuclear material. Funny how they dont let anyone else in that region have that kind of weapon.

[minngarm]

Recent bills past seem to be counter productive to self-sufficiency :| And personally Id be more worried about the local army and police forces then the normal citizens. Google occupy wall street police violence.

 

But yes this is all theory. You cant really do much testing with nuclear weapons and Im not even sure a scientist who knows what hes talking about can give you a straight answer about what happens when one these top of the line Nuclear weapons are used. Heck they may not even make a mushroom cloud anymore.

 

Personally I think the idea of this Nuclear apocalypse is a silly idea for many reasons. Small scale nuclear conflict? Likely, especially with the amount of ordinance Isreal is allowed to have and the amount of "missing" nuclear material. Funny how they dont let anyone else in that region have that kind of weapon.

 

 

Right the actual effect of modern nuclear weapons is still all in theory, maybe with some remote ocean testing, but I doubt many if any have been done by any country due to the high level of risk the immediate and after effects pose. As for the EMP use, yes that is basic tactics any nuclear weilding country would use, however there are weapons designed purely for that so its not like they are taking a high yield nuke and detonating it in the sky rather than on military targets.

 

The issue most countries have now is not so much lack of self sufficentness(sp) but rather lack of knowledge and concern from individuals. Here in the US we still have evacuation routes marked, public safety instructions and material lists. Hell you can go down to your local city hall and get advisement on not only what you need to stock for any conceived situation but all the instructions material and classes needed to learn basic first aid, suvival, and any number of useful skills for disaster and after disaster situations.

 

As I said above the issue isnt a lack of perperation or self reliance but that most people in the world just dont give a s*** enough about the possible to be prepared for the unthinkable.

[ModelV]

3 things.

1. to make a water purifier is actually simple tech that requires NO electric, the main thing you need is carbon which is easy to get. The quickest and safest way to get purified water is boiling and condensing, you can then further filter it. Some simple guides on getting water; Dew and rain collection (rain being more dangerous following fallout), condensation collection, solar stills, water from snow and ice (also more dangerous following fallout) the bluer the ice the safer for drinking as it is old ice, Be suspicious of any pool with no green vegetation growing around it, or animal bones present as it is likely to be polluted.

 

2. I mentioned bunker not vault, In this country there are loads of disused cold war bunkers of which I know a lot of them inside and out. A bunker is blast protection and to block radiation you need lead, I work in nuclear reactors on occasion and trust me that is basically what a reactor chamber is, lead walls are used in X-ray rooms to block radiation and what do you think stops your microwave from frying you.

 

3. I mentioned airports - did I say functioning or military NO, most surviving airports would be small civilian airports. I was on about the lay of the land and possibly the radio communications could be repaired - also simple technology. If some parts of the world still had flight capability do you not think they would use it. Plus EMPs mostly destroy equipment that is turned on, so any aircraft in salvageable condition that weren't in use at time of blasts would most likely still function.

 

Basic survival training can help in any situation but most skills would be of no use as they would be suddenly obsolete.

 

Also you have not answered my question, who are you????

And anyone can look stuff up on google, but if fallout happened google would be gone and you would be alone.

 

And to anyone who thinks having guns would save you just remember this, where you going to get more ammo from and how long will that last. You need weapons you can craft which are silent and ammo you can reuse and craft more of, guns are noisy and will bring people. Even a silenced weapon isn't silent only muffled

 

You know I explicitly said that I learned that a long time ago and the information may have changed on it. I think they puts the theory of me just looking all that stuff up on google to rest. Yes I did use it later because I had forgotten the word apoptosis(kept thinking catatonic...) and I was still able to explain all of it without the word. Its also ironic because I am really bad at finding stuff in google or any search engine and Im a beta tester of a new program that will make google useless for finding anything other then porn. At that point I theorize it will be called porgle but thats a bit off topic.

 

 

Now for the all too common today number point multi topic argument:

 

1, 2,3: Who told you that?

 

More on 1: Re condensing water doesnt work with radioactive elements it works with getting rid of dirt and bacteria not cesium and Iodine isotopes. All it going to due is A. Release the stuff into the air where it will got sucked into your system or B. re condense with the water. Or a combination of the 2. Its also definitely not going to work with a makeshift filter.

 

More on 2: They are not "disused" they are "currently unoccupied" because they arent getting bombed. People do not just build a bunker and stay in it until nukes get dropped. 2 Your never gonna get into that bunker because either its owners or other people who found it(If you could someone else did too.) will fight you to get into that bunker. 3. Bunkers, all bunkers, are one of the top targets for nukes and are to be destroyed or surrounded by a large amount of radiation.

 

 

More on 3: High population cities, Military installations, Manufacturing centers, Food production centers, and airports are the top locations to get bombed. That means civilian airports too. Whether military or not you can still launch fighter jets from it or evac people. 2. Its unlikely that you know how to fly a plane. Its also unlikely that you know how to repair and mantain a plane. Its extremely unlikely they you can do both of these things. 3. There is nothing useful at an airport especially a civilian one. Your also crossing "raid a building" which results in DEAD.

 

4. All survival skills will always be useful in any survival situation. If you think I see computer skill as a survival skill you are mistaken. Well actually your not its just not the skill of "googling." Technology skills are still quite useful.

 

5. "Think its necessary to kill people: DEAD" And silenced weapons either A. make a weapon actually silenced so your not gonna hear it unless your close or B. Break up directional sound. In either case It wouldnt attract people!

 

 

 

 

@minngarm

 

Americans wash eggs. Not clean the feathers and poop off. They wash them. You do not understand how wasteful and inefficient that is. Do you see the problem now?

 

Excuse me if i have incorrectly assumed your American. Still might work regardless.

 

I was discussing this whole idea of nuclear apocalypse and we made the conclusion that the issue is survival after a nuclear attack because if you know your going to die from a nuclear attack you will(or should) do everything in your power to prevent it from happening. Preventing a problem from happening is better then reducing the damage a problem inflicts. And really this whole idea of surviving a nuclear attack is insane. Its all fun and games when it is just games but do you really understand what a world like that will be like. Do you know what Anarchy is like? Its the worse kind of madness humanity can find itself in and trust me Fallout doesn't portray it accurately.

Edited December 1, 2011 by ModelV

[phoenix777]

Oh look I can use google too, I searched "how to make radioactive water safe" and I got How To Make Safe Drinking Water In A Radioactive Fallout Situation and Nuclear War Survival Skills Ch. 8: Water just on the first page, and I know that this information is pretty accurate, I didn't need to search but I did just for the hell of it. And the second sites chapter list which I haven't looked at;

Ch. 1: The Dangers from Nuclear Weapons: Myths and Facts

Ch. 2: Warnings and Communications

Ch. 3: Psychological Preparations

Ch. 4: Evacuation

Ch. 5: Shelter, the Greatest Need

Ch. 6: Ventilation and Cooling of Shelters

Ch. 7: Protection Against Fires and Carbon Monoxide

Ch. 8: Water

Ch. 9: Food

Ch. 10: Fallout Radiation Meters

Ch. 11: Light

Ch. 12: Shelter Sanitation and Preventive Medicine

Ch. 13: Surviving Without Doctors

Ch. 14: Expedient Shelter Furnishings

Ch. 15: Improvised Clothing and Protective Items

Ch. 16: Minimum Pre-Crisis Preparations

Ch. 17: Permanent Family Fallout Shelters for Dual Use

Ch. 18: Trans-Pacific Fallout

 

The shelters are most likely ineffective.