What is the point of gunners plaza?

[BadReplicant]

Even skipping over the delicious irony of seeing you complain about other people being insulting, in the same paragraph as you call whoever disagrees with your tastes a moron or not being critically minded...

 

I dunno. I've also been known to take modding requests on the forum, or offer help with other issues. So have many others.

 

If we're talking morons with nothing else to occupy your time than trolling the forum -- and "morons" is your term, not mine -- what have YOU done other than whining like Todd Howard and Emil Pagliarulo personally came over, pissed in your Cheerios, kicked your dog and personally forced you to play FO4?

 

If you complain about other people coming back to offer their counterpoints, why are YOU here? You can check the mods even without checking every whine thread.

 

I have made mods that address some of the grievances I agreed with in several games -- including stuff like not liking the paddle weapons in Skyrim, or not liking the lack of certain outfits in NV (especially non-dresses for women), etc -- so I know why I'm here. But if you think that checking whine threads is bad when I do it, why don't you take your own advice? Why are YOU here? If I click on your name, will I see even a batch file under uploaded files? If I go through your 74 posts, will I see even a single constructive solution to anyone's problems? I'm willing to bet actually money that I won't see anything but more butthurt whine.

 

But even skipping over that, ok, I'm not paid by Beth to defend them or anything, but are YOU paid to post whine after whine after whine? Otherwise, why do you think those with a positive opinion have less of a right to it than you have to your negative ones? Entitlement delusions much?

I came on this thread because I was wondering what the OP said about Gunner's Plaza. I thought I might have missed something, though... maybe subconsciously I was looking for an excuse to bash Fallout more, but hey, the conversation goes on with or without me.

...Okay, I shouldn't have said morons and I guess I have complained too much. I usually try to be constructive, though. I didn't make any mods, just have an interest in them and plan on helping one of the bigger projects with writing, music, and hopefully voice later this year.

 

The main reason I have complained as much as I have is because it's difficult to assess what really went wrong with it. Was it a sellout? Was it a lack of inspiration? Was there an inflated ego involved? Were they trying too hard to avoid "risks"? Idk, but that lack of closure is what keeps poking my brain.

 

This might be a first for the internet, but honestly I apologize.

[Boombro]

Will there is a first for every thing I guess. That nice of you. But drink some water, you still 70% salt.

 

I hardly think fallout 4 is a sellout. The more I play the game, the more it is clear.

The only ones that f*#@ed this game are the writers.

 

Flies roam around dead bodies, Travis sometimes plays the wrong tracks and stutters, the crabs lose their shells, DC has Xmas lights on 25 dec, the ruins of the main city are multi level, the radstorms make the sky green, the syringer has fear, frenzy and calm and the raiders tell stories.

 

But the writing sucks.

 

This could have been easily ones of beth best titles. If it had at least level fo3 of quests and writing. There are some sweet quests in fo4. Quests better than ones in Skyrim. But so few. This so sad, everything else is good and made with care. I feel so bad for the everyone else. Expect the UI, the texture guy and the destiny dudes who added the legendary loot system.

[Moraelin]

The main reason I have complained as much as I have is because it's difficult to assess what really went wrong with it. Was it a sellout? Was it a lack of inspiration? Was there an inflated ego involved? Were they trying too hard to avoid "risks"? Idk, but that lack of closure is what keeps poking my brain.

Well, being a smug, arrogant and, I dare say, even snarky bastard, I have no problem with not looking for more complicated explanations than Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice, that which is adequately explained by stupidity." :tongue:

 

Sometimes people just don't think things through, and that includes game designers. Additionally games have a budget, and you rarely have enough of it to cover EVERYTHING and neatly tie up all loose ends.

 

Since we're talking Gunners' Plaza, is it that hard to imagine that a company would:

 

A) not think through the implications of killing certain characters, and how the power dynamics would play in the resulting power vacuum?

 

AND

 

B) rather spend their budget on another quest or two, than on simulating those power dynamics, and which other factions would fight to fill the vaccuum, and all that?

 

The fact is, most people just want to be told a story, and can live with the props being less than perfect and perfectly explained.

 

Why doesn't conservation of mass make Hulk's density drop when he puffs up, to the point where any wind just blows him away? Why aren't werewolves in medieval stories under such incredible pressure (you kinda have to compress a liquid from the size of a man to the size of a wolf) that they explode when you kill them? How can dragons in Skyrim fly, when their body to wingspan ratio says there's no way in hell to do that? Why isn't there more of a grab for power among the other jarls? Etc.

 

All games and even movies have a lot of stuff that's not just not explained well, but really not many people want to see explained well. Let's face it, for most of us it's more fun to see Picard or Superman save the day, than to follow some nonsense explanation of exactly how the deflector dish was polarized or exactly how does the sunlight interact with Superman's cells. Most movies that try to explain too much, end up a case of boredom, facepalm or both.

 

And so it is in Fallout 4 too. Some things are basically just props. Nagging as it may be for some people that there isn't some overarching effect to killing certain Gunner leaders, you have to admit that if they ditched two quests in favour of scripting some fight for the building between a new raider faction and the mutants, it wouldn't really make the game better on the whole. For the same budget, you'd lose some stuff that matters more, and gain some stuff that matters less.

 

Essentially, even in the most ideal world, all game design is a compromise. You have to make the most with what you have. So it will never be perfect. You have to decide to let some loose ends stay loose, if you can make something more interesting with the same money.

 

And in the less than ideal real world, well, game designers are imperfect people too. They might not make the best compromise there.

[gunslinger6792]

Will there is a first for every thing I guess. That nice of you. But drink some water, you still 70% salt.

 

I hardly think fallout 4 is a sellout. The more I play the game, the more it is clear.

The only ones that f***ed this game are the writers.

 

Flies roam around dead bodies, Travis sometimes plays the wrong tracks and stutters, the crabs lose their shells, DC has Xmas lights on 25 dec, the ruins of the main city are multi level, the radstorms make the sky green, the syringer has fear, frenzy and calm and the raiders tell stories.

 

But the writing sucks.

 

This could have been easily ones of beth best titles. If it had at least level fo3 of quests and writing. There are some sweet quests in fo4. Quests better than ones in Skyrim. But so few. This so sad, everything else is good and made with care. I feel so bad for the everyone else. Expect the UI, the texture guy and the destiny dudes who added the legendary loot system.

The UI I can ignore but the destiny style loot system F that. I've never played destiny for a reason, mainly it being an over hyped story plot devoid game, and I really don't want destiny style anything in fallout. I have to agree with you 100 percent though the writing and quest structure suck. The went even more backwards with quests than they did in skyrim and thats just painful. Hell I think skyrim even left more notes in it's dungeons to give some areas a reason for being. It''s like the writers/devs got lazy or the team was switched out half way through. It honestly wouldn't surprise me if the writing/dev team got replaced. Some of the quests and story ideas are briliant and very fallout like, the constitution comes to mind and cabot house. So many of the quests and locations just became shoot this up shoot that up and I really don't understand it. It cheapens the replay value and leaves me honestly very bitter. Once again it'll be the modders who fix the game and bethesda will get to cash in on that. As a modder I really just want to tell bethesda to fix it's own damn game but they won't care. *sigh* I'm becoming a cranky old man at the ripe old age of 23.

[Boombro]

Calm down. Beth clearly tried to improve their games. I have seen many improvements applied this time around and many good ideas(syringer like weapon in TES please.). Even the writing in those very few quests themselves are clear improvements. I can hardly an think of quests in Skyrim that can top sliver, USS, freedom trail and the other good ones.

 

In the beta patches, it shows they want to improve it, adding new small features here and there.

 

Of course only time will tell if they will go backwards or forward. The only thing beth can do to the save the game for real is a cut quest update/dlc and one of a fat DLC.

[oldspice2625]

Meh, every game company has made some stinkers from time to time.

 

Capcom made some HORRIFIC games, as well as HAL Laboratories (Milon's Secret Castle) and those were the guys that mad Street Fighter II, and Kirby and Super Smash Bros respectively.

 

Hell, even KONAMI that made friggin CONTRA for god's sake made some shitty games.

 

Sega was once one of the TITANS that was head to head with Nintendo, when Nintendo was practically God, or the Microsoft of the Gaming industry and Sega is reduced to stupid arcade and hello kitty claw games.

 

I think we just expect Bethesda to "Do no harm" ever, and we get our expectations way too high. It's like expecting your teacher to know everything and all of the answers all of the time, and getting pissed off when they don't remember something. (personal experience :P)

 

Face it, this game is mediocre at best, but that doesn't mean that the game is over, it's just half time, and there's a whole 'nother round coming up. Things will get better, but they have to get worse before they can get better.

 

Remember Morrowind in its glory? Then remember Oblivion? Yikes! Again, Oblivion was a mediocre game (so I mean it was a good game bunt not great), with its moments (Dark Brotherhood and Thieve's Guild), then Skyrim came along, and some of the Morrowind magic came back, it wasn't as superb as Morrowind with respect to worldbuilding, immersion, and lore, but it was a damn great step forward from Oblivion (eve nthough I love oblivion to death, I still can recognize the flaws compared to other titles).

 

If Skyrim is any proof over Oblivion, Bethesda CAN and WILL improve. Remember, one man's trash is another man's treasure, and I'm sure there are plenty that love FO4's new "improvements". You have to remember that they are not designing for you... they are designing for the Almighty Dollar, and with enough pressure, anything can change.

[Boombro]

Meh, every game company has made some stinkers from time to time.

 

Capcom made some HORRIFIC games, as well as HAL Laboratories (Milon's Secret Castle) and those were the guys that mad Street Fighter II, and Kirby and Super Smash Bros respectively.

 

Hell, even KONAMI that made friggin CONTRA for god's sake made some shitty games.

 

Sega was once one of the TITANS that was head to head with Nintendo, when Nintendo was practically God, or the Microsoft of the Gaming industry and Sega is reduced to stupid arcade and hello kitty claw games.

 

I think we just expect Bethesda to "Do no harm" ever, and we get our expectations way too high. It's like expecting your teacher to know everything and all of the answers all of the time, and getting pissed off when they don't remember something. (personal experience :tongue:)

 

Face it, this game is mediocre at best, but that doesn't mean that the game is over, it's just half time, and there's a whole 'nother round coming up. Things will get better, but they have to get worse before they can get better.

 

Remember Morrowind in its glory? Then remember Oblivion? Yikes! Again, Oblivion was a mediocre game (so I mean it was a good game bunt not great), with its moments (Dark Brotherhood and Thieve's Guild), then Skyrim came along, and some of the Morrowind magic came back, it wasn't as superb as Morrowind with respect to worldbuilding, immersion, and lore, but it was a damn great step forward from Oblivion (eve nthough I love oblivion to death, I still can recognize the flaws compared to other titles).

 

If Skyrim is any proof over Oblivion, Bethesda CAN and WILL improve. Remember, one man's trash is another man's treasure, and I'm sure there are plenty that love FO4's new "improvements". You have to remember that they are not designing for you... they are designing for the Almighty Dollar, and with enough pressure, anything can change.

While Skyrim is improvement over oblivion, the writing was not. Quests are what makes beth games shine the most, so they have to be at least good.

 

I have mixed feelings about fo4 quests. Some writing did improve like the few side quests and followers, but in everything else it sink to hell. Like what?

 

I was thinking for the sake of beth games, maybe there shouldn't be a main quest after all. For the sake of the side quests and RP, the meat of the games.

[oldspice2625]

You need a main objective though. There has to be some kind of momentum propelling your character forward. I haven't played, but have watched LP's of The WItcher series, and you can have a game without a heroic type of character, just an average, run of the mill everydude that does what he does because of simpler motivations. We don't always have to have a main story where we save the world. I think this is where Bethesda should change. We shouldn't be tasked with saving the world, because it doesn't make sense to.

 

In fallout, the main character should not go out to save the world. In fallout 1, this was not the main objective, but eventually could become the main objective after saving your vault. All of the Fallout Games followed this "path to heroics and greatness" thing, but they didn't have to. I would say FNV almost broke the cycle, but didn't, you were more like a mediator between groups, but still you eventually "saved the world".

 

In The Witcher 2, there are warring factions, and yet you never get involved because you can't because it doesn't make sense for a random ass dude to get involved. That makes sense to me. Profit for yourself for survival and taking care/benefiting yourself. That makes sense.

 

We are so stuck in this motive that we have to be a soldier, or a hero of some sort that games that are brave enough not to follow this McDonaldization where everyone is trying to copy the "winning formula" or the flavor of the week, we praise it for being original when it shouldn't have had to be in the first place.

 

Not every game has t be like Legend of Zelda, where there's a hero that fights evil for the sake of the world all of the time...

 

If you think about it, none of the FO protags should be heroes.... there's no reason and no business to be. I guess in The Elder Scrolls... but considering you can be one of the non heroic "beast" races, it'd not make sense for half of those races to even care about the civil war in Skyrim. I never play the beast races for that reason. Elder Scrolls demands that we be the hero, and a Khajiit or Orc doesn't look the part, so it feels weird for me, whereas if the main goal was a more "everyday person" type of goal, instead of "saving the world" I would think differently.

 

Point is, you say maybe a main quest shouldn't exist, I say it needs to to have purpose, but shouldn't be saving the world all the time, because that seems to get Bethesda stuck in corners that it cannot get out of

[Boombro]

See?! You get it!

 

 

You need a main objective though. There has to be some kind of momentum propelling your character forward

And the main quest is always that, YUP.

 

 

I like the dragonborn story a lot, but main quests are so 20942343 years ago. Focus on side quests and factions and it a win-win. If the players want to be a hero, it can be done with a main story line that is not the main storyline.

 

 

If you think about it, none of the FO protags should be heroes.... there's no reason and no business to be. I guess in The Elder Scrolls... but considering you can be one of the non heroic "beast" races, it'd not make sense for half of those races to even care about the civil war in Skyrim. I never play the beast races for that reason. Elder Scrolls demands that we be the hero, and a Khajiit or Orc doesn't look the part, so it feels weird for me, whereas if the main goal was a more "everyday person" type of goal, instead of "saving the world" I would think differently.

That dragonborn doesn't have to be a nord whatsoever. You just at bad RP brah.

Once I RP an argonian hero sent by hist to save the world from the dragons since I was the strongest in the tribe. It worked pretty well.

 

If I was bored in my chars I would play the main quest for the lols, from a flirty vampire lady to a scared thief. Since they never know that they dragonborns, it works every time.

[Raycheetah]

Fallout 4 could've had a fine "main quest" without the whole "Find Shaun" thing: Rebuilding the Commonwealth with the Minutemen. A great and heroic ideal, and also completely ignorable, if you dun wanna. That way, side quests and exploration as a mercenary/BoS grunt/random wanderer would be utterly possible, allowing for a range of levels of anonymity. In fact, simply ignore the Institute (and all related content), and you still can, at the cost of missing out on some of the provided content. To hell with "General" or "Knight/Paladin/Sentinel;" let's keep things real.

 

I will say that much of the finer work in FO4 may be overlooked, due to subtlety. One thing which comes to mind is the connection between Vault 75 (I believe it was, under Malden Elementary School) and a small town occupied by Supermutants. In the town, a terminal has notes about the writer's two sons who got away from Malden Elementary, giving their teachers the slip when the bombs fell. Those two boys are noted as no-shows in a terminal in Vault 75. The odds of a player remembering both instances, let alone making the connection, seem pretty slim, based on the LPs I've watched. There's another such connection involving that pre-war family and another location, but I won't spoil it for you any more than I already have.

 

So much good went into this game, yet so much falls flat, or was cut out (The Combat Zone, for example, could've been a real boon for melee characters, as originally written, but Bethesda canned the idea for an arena, and simply left the place as a raider shooting gallery). Time, money, impetus... All resources that can run dry. But an organic feel to the world is well worth a little extra effort. If I kill a batch of Gunner leaders, and can perceive that I have had an effect (even if it's just the occasional hit squad, a la NV), it means more than simply mowing down yet another buncha mooks.

 

Well, I s'pose that's what mods are for. ='[.]'=