There's something that doesn't belong.

[TheGreatEater]

fKarmaModKillingEvilActor [GMST:0001A1D4]

 

and

 

fKarmaModStealing [GMST:0001A1D5]

 

I find it odd that there is Karma in the Game Settings. And they each have points attached to them.

 

Killing +100

 

Stealing - 5

 

But the game itself never really uses it. Sure you break into a person's home and they see you. They'll start attacking with guns and stuff. But the game still chooses to force you into being a good guy. I mean sure there's technically an ending to have everyone hate you, kill off the Brotherhood, and Institute [after killing the Railroad] . Just as there is a rather convoluted way to end the game with everyone but the Institute friends [the secret good ending.] . But all in all, there's no real Karma or way to be super evil in the game. Even though they have Karma as part of the hidden game mechanics.

 

Just thought I'd show those two Game systems that left me scratching my head.

[Arnaeus]

Maybe thats from previous games. They copied the engine and reused it. You'll even find dragon souls in the (unused) definitions.

[Ethreon]

Being in the game code and being used are different things. You should be happy it's there, modders can give us back morality (at least the number based one, if story based one lacks completely).

[tomomi1922]

This is a game made of an entire big team. Within it, there are several producers and team leaders and other executive members who have a say in the decision making process. Initial design may be laid out, but along the development, someone is upset at something, or certain goals were reached differently that yields certain unforeseen results. For example, testing for karma system proved to be too buggy/retarded and the chief designer decided to scrap it altogether in interest of saving time and resources (resources as in man power and productivity) that can be better used else where in developing other parts of the game: simply the risk vs reward is too small.

 

And another type of scenarios, the team was happy with a feature, yet the exec producer gave words to the lead designers that, after meeting with marketing, certain features (maybe a companion) should be withheld to be used as DLC for best revenue. So game designers had to cut all tie with this companion for now, writers must find another NPC to serve the holes, maybe a random NPC, maybe get Piper to do it, etc.... All these happened behind the scene. We probably know nothing about it because the dev teams signed NDA forms. It's understandable because no organization wants to have bad PR looking like unorganized and incompetent, but in reality, a whole lot of things can go wrong, whether by oversight, or human mistake. Sometimes patching things up with a bandaid will do, other times they had to scrap a project and redo from scratch. Not the entire game, but maybe a specific quest line with BoS for example. After 1 point someone on top will feel it doesn't quite make sense .... and they may have decided to redo the entire quest line so it better fits with the whole atmosphere.

Tricky part is, they are not working with a linear plot. They are working with a player decision based plot that has a lot of branching off to numerous combinations of alternate scenarios. It gets a whole lot more complex pretty fast.

[TheGreatEater]

Maybe thats from previous games. They copied the engine and reused it. You'll even find dragon souls in the (unused) definitions.

 

And arrows. Although I'm going to wait for GECK, then make a mod that'll allow Soul Stealing / capturing souls. Best of all, it'd be 100 % Lore Friendly.

 

Here's how:

 

http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/article/4/2/5/20425.jpg?v=1

 

 

Edison was working on a device that'd detect life units that a ghost would give off [as he theorized] and would capture the data a ghost gave off to allow them be observed by the living. Of course in F04. Tesla, who in IRL Edison smear campaigned into poverty after stealing Tesla's ideas [like he did with all his other famous inventions like the lightbulb which he didn't invent a working model of [He stole it from both Heinrich Goebel and Joseph Wilson Swan]], who is a freaking super genius could easily have made a device for capturing the electromagnetic / radiation that ghosts are fabled of giving off [not radiation like nuclear. But rather how temperatures drop when they are near, or the ability to move objects while being incorporeal].

 

So capturing souls of those you murder, and storing them in devices is completely plausible in a Fallout Lore setting.

 

[That and I want souls as crafting components once GECK comes out and I can work out how to do it.]

__________________________

 

 

 

Being in the game code and being used are different things. You should be happy it's there, modders can give us back morality (at least the number based one, if story based one lacks completely).

 

True. Modders can do amazing things when they put their minds to something. I can't wait for GECK to come out. So we can get some evil quests / endings.

[TheGreatEater]

This is a game made of an entire big team. Within it, there are several producers and team leaders and other executive members who have a say in the decision making process. Initial design may be laid out, but along the development, someone is upset at something, or certain goals were reached differently that yields certain unforeseen results. For example, testing for karma system proved to be too buggy/retarded and the chief designer decided to scrap it altogether in interest of saving time and resources (resources as in man power and productivity) that can be better used else where in developing other parts of the game: simply the risk vs reward is too small.

 

And another type of scenarios, the team was happy with a feature, yet the exec producer gave words to the lead designers that, after meeting with marketing, certain features (maybe a companion) should be withheld to be used as DLC for best revenue. So game designers had to cut all tie with this companion for now, writers must find another NPC to serve the holes, maybe a random NPC, maybe get Piper to do it, etc.... All these happened behind the scene. We probably know nothing about it because the dev teams signed NDA forms. It's understandable because no organization wants to have bad PR looking like unorganized and incompetent, but in reality, a whole lot of things can go wrong, whether by oversight, or human mistake. Sometimes patching things up with a bandaid will do, other times they had to scrap a project and redo from scratch. Not the entire game, but maybe a specific quest line with BoS for example. After 1 point someone on top will feel it doesn't quite make sense .... and they may have decided to redo the entire quest line so it better fits with the whole atmosphere.

 

Tricky part is, they are not working with a linear plot. They are working with a player decision based plot that has a lot of branching off to numerous combinations of alternate scenarios. It gets a whole lot more complex pretty fast.

 

 

I don't know about it being too buggy / retarded since it was a popular and well received part of F03 and Vegas.

 

But I can see it being DLC'd for better revenue.

 

And true. Things when making a game can get messed up real fast, and need to be scrapped and redone. Almost annoyingly so.

[Boombro]

 

I don't know about it being too buggy / retarded since it was a popular and well received part of F03 and Vegas.

That was very very broken.

Perks, quests, gear and rep are better as replacements for the karma system and less broken.

[tomomi1922]

 

 

 

I don't know about it being too buggy / retarded since it was a popular and well received part of F03 and Vegas.

 

But I can see it being DLC'd for better revenue.

 

And true. Things when making a game can get messed up real fast, and need to be scrapped and redone. Almost annoyingly so.

 

 

What I said was only a few possible scenarios. But there could be a great number of things that happened. And we probably won't hear about it 5-10 years later when the company felt comfortable discussing it in some Behind-the-scene documentary. Once again, buggy or retarded is just my speculation. The blue print laid out a certain expectation to be met, but the result didn't meet the goal, so they had decisions to make.

 

Again, all speculations. It would have gone many different ways.

 

 

 

I don't know about it being too buggy / retarded since it was a popular and well received part of F03 and Vegas.

That was very very broken.

Perks, quests, gear and rep are better as replacements for the karma system and less broken.

 

 

With my personal gaming experience, there has never been a game that had the commitment to work out a solid karma system. It may not be a game design thing, but karma in human society is very complex. And since games operate on human's perception of karma ... it gets more complex. Thus I did say the system yields far less reward than the troubles it incurs. Simply, how would you build a concept of morality based on score? How do you acquire players' intentions? Even something as simple as dialogue choices ... you can choose to insult Piper, for example, for her wrong doing. How does your game know the player's intention of this decision is simply to ridicule Piper to no end (basically being a jack ass), or intentionally reprimand Piper to teach her a lesson so she will not make the same mistake in the future (being thoughtful without sugar coating).

 

You would have to build a complex survey system to allow players to communicate with the game engines their intentions. And it cannot take forever (too much reading) to go through 1 simple conversation, yet fully capture complex human intentions....

 

Mass Effect 2 had a karma system that will reward you either Renegade or Paragon points (aggressive or pacifist). But the way they did it requiring players to hit all the right dialogues based on a morality path to gain point on either ends. Players do not get to see which dialogue line will gain them what points (or if at all). You can choose to respond however you like, but the catch is, if you are not either extreme Paragon or Renegade, you are locked out of a few very important game plots. So, the end result? I had to pull up a Wiki page to follow closely like a "cheat sheet" to make sure I get the right points hidden behind certain dialogue lines. If I miss too many points, I will be screwed toward the end of the game. That was the most retarded way of a morality system. You can still finish the game, but you will be locked out of a few major content: namely 3 big instances. Without perfect karma, you would have to lose the loyalty of 2 companions (by not supporting their sides of the conflicts) that almost ensure their certain death in the end, or even a destruction of an entire race.

 

So in Mass Effect 3 they loosened it a lot more. They only counted total karma point (like charisma check), which made the entire karma system weak, but also very playable without players worrying constantly if they ever had to miss certain decisions and will be doomed about 50 hours later into the game. The very catch of Mass Effect is, the result of each end game from Mass Effect 1 onward carries onto the next game. You can start Mass Effect 3 as a brand new character, but you are locked out of a few very good content because your character's "history" in ME1 and ME2 were decided for you presuming you skipped a lot of side quests. That's their way of rewarding continuing players.

[Boombro]

I think overlord and fable had good ones, and they were not based only on dialogue and quests.

[tomomi1922]

I think overlord and fable had good ones, and they were not based only on dialogue and quests.

 

Didn;t play those 2 games. I kept waiting for Fable to be on sale... and time passed....