Do You Think the Delayed Creation Kit Will Have a Long Term Negative Effect on Modding?

[Boombro]

*Claps*

[WursWaldo]

Go read the Bethesda.Net EULA. Specifically section 2, part D ("Game Mods"). You'll note that the Bethesda.Net EULA makes multiple mentions that "Game Mods" are not "customized game materials". And, further, that any Game Editor EULAs supersede the Bethesda.Net EULA. Oh, and as an added bonus, the Bethesda.Net EULA specifically mentions that game mods are owned by the mod developers, not Bethesda.

You might want to reread that, in particular where it specifically states the Editor EULA supersedes the website's Terms of Service. And no where in the Terms does it state that 'Game Mods' are not 'Customized Game Materials'. It says Game Mods are not 'Content' as defined in that TOS. The Customized Game Materials cited in the FO4 EULA is not the 'Content' mentioned. The TOS 'Content' includes virtual currency, something not address in the FO4 EULA. The definitions are drastically different; they are not the same and they are talking about two different things. Your comparison is like saying the NexusMods TOS invalidates the forum's IP.Board software license.

 

Regardless, I've been called a 'troll' and 'chicken little' for making a factual presentation and a reasonable analysis of the situation. To my credit I am not ignoring the truth of the matter. I am basing my opinion on tangible information, not what I want to be true.

Edited March 28, 2016 by WursWaldo

[Fatalmasterpiece]

 

 

The sky is not falling. Paid mods aren't going to ruin game modding, or the Nexus and Bethesda is not going to pee in your cheerios.

With proper market research, modders can be incentivized to think consoles first and PCs second. If the young players want a combo Minecraft and World of Warcraft game, Fallout 4 has that capability with all the building items. If these market research children want the Player to lead a team of tactical brahmin and commando deathclaws to assist in defeating the Boss at various locations, modders can do that. Make sure to include a molerat healer. What about some cute kids doing samurai sword fighting? Throw it in, for you have crossed over into the Commerical Zone.

 

 

That's funny because right now tons of mods are made with 0 monetary incentive. Many modders have been doing this since Morrowind dropped almost 15 years ago. But I guess some kid making a tactical brahmin mod and earning $0.05 a download is going to make them quit :teehee:

 

Did you hear about all the unpaid semi-professional musicians who just quit playing music because John Petrucci makes millions of dollars playing guitar? I guess the public basketball courts of the world are going to be empty because Kobe earns millions of dollars a season. :thumbsup:

 

No... not really.

[minngarm]

 

 

 

The sky is not falling. Paid mods aren't going to ruin game modding, or the Nexus and Bethesda is not going to pee in your cheerios.

With proper market research, modders can be incentivized to think consoles first and PCs second. If the young players want a combo Minecraft and World of Warcraft game, Fallout 4 has that capability with all the building items. If these market research children want the Player to lead a team of tactical brahmin and commando deathclaws to assist in defeating the Boss at various locations, modders can do that. Make sure to include a molerat healer. What about some cute kids doing samurai sword fighting? Throw it in, for you have crossed over into the Commerical Zone.

 

 

That's funny because right now tons of mods are made with 0 monetary incentive. Many modders have been doing this since Morrowind dropped almost 15 years ago. But I guess some kid making a tactical brahmin mod and earning $0.05 a download is going to make them quit :teehee:

 

Did you hear about all the unpaid semi-professional musicians who just quit playing music because John Petrucci makes millions of dollars playing guitar? I guess the public basketball courts of the world are going to be empty because Kobe earns millions of dollars a season. :thumbsup:

 

No... not really.

 

Bro-man.. His name is Bro-man.

[Reneer]

You might want to reread that, in particular where it specifically states the Editor EULA supersedes the website's Terms of Service. And no where in the Terms does it state that 'Game Mods' are not 'Customized Game Materials'. It says Game Mods are not 'Content' as defined in that TOS. The Customized Game Materials cited in the FO4 EULA is not the 'Content' mentioned. The TOS 'Content' includes virtual currency, something not address in the FO4 EULA. The definitions are drastically different; they are not the same and they are talking about two different things. Your comparison is like saying the NexusMods TOS invalidates the forum's IP.Board software license.

My point was that Game Mods, as defined in the Bethesda.Net EULA, are made separate from other forms of User-Generated Content, as defined in that same EULA. Sorry for the confusion.

 

Game mods will not be subject to the FO4 EULA, but instead will be subject to the Bethesda.Net EULA because those same mods will be distributed through Bethesda.Net, thus they are under its Terms of Service. Those Terms of Service also state that any Editor Tool EULA will supersede the Bethesda.Net EULA terms, if the two sets of terms conflict with one another.

 

Bethesda is not trying to say that they own the game mods we create. They realize that doing so would put off many mod creators if the content they create is suddenly owned by Bethesda when combined with the CK. I can imagine texture artists and 3D modelers would be exceptionally frustrated with that.

 

If You desire to develop or create one or more Game Mods, then You will be required to download from a ZeniMax website or otherwise gain access to via a ZeniMax website one or more software tools through which You may create or develop Game Mods (each such tool is an “Editor Tool”). To obtain a copy of or get access to any such Editor Tool, You will be required to agree to the terms of a separate EULA (the “Editor EULA”). If there is a conflict between the terms and conditions in any such Editor EULA and the terms and conditions in these Terms of Service, the terms in the Editor EULA will control over the conflicting terms in these Terms of Service but solely for purpose of the specific Editor Tool and not for any other purpose. Please review the terms in the Editor EULA carefully.

Each Game Mod is owned by the developer of the Game Mod, subject to the licenses granted by the developer to ZeniMax as set forth in the Editor EULA.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Reneer

[WursWaldo]

I'm going to try and explain what is happening with FO4 modding and Bethesda.net.

 

I make a knife. It is an original model with original textures. Nothing was made with Bethesda assets and the knife will work with any game; Skyrim, Mass Effect:3, The Witcher 3, FO3, Morrowind, etc. But the moment I adapt it to work with FO4 Bethesda has claim to it, even though the knife doesn't require their software. That is what the FO4 EULA states. No previous Bethesda game EULAs have ever made that claim. If I am stupid enough to upload the FO4 version of the knife to Bethesda.net not only do they have tentative claim to my knife, but now they have a fully legal binding claim to it. That is what the Bethesda.net EULA states. They aren't worried if the knife is classified as a 'Game Mod'. They already own it as a condition of FO4 EULA.

 

These licenses and EULAs don't exist in a vacuum; they are part of a great whole.

[minngarm]

I'm going to try and explain what is happening with FO4 modding and Bethesda.net.

 

I make a knife. It is an original model with original textures. Nothing was made with Bethesda assets and the knife will work with any game; Skyrim, Mass Effect:3, The Witcher 3, FO3, Morrowind, etc. But the moment I adapt it to work with FO4 Bethesda has claim to it, even though the knife doesn't require their software. That is what the FO4 EULA states. No previous Bethesda game EULAs have ever made that claim. If I am stupid enough to upload the FO4 version of the knife to Bethesda.net not only do they have tentative claim to my knife, but now they have a fully legal binding claim to it. That is what the Bethesda.net EULA states. They aren't worried if the knife is classified as a 'Game Mod'. They already own it as a condition of FO4 EULA.

 

These licenses and EULAs don't exist in a vacuum; they are part of a great whole.

To clairfy they have all rights to the knife you make in regards to it's use in their games. You can use the same 3rd party tool asset you made in multiple IPs and it remains the same, they do not have rights to your content itself only to it in regards to it's application towards their IPs.

 

So the mod you make as a resource or to put into the game is theirs by right, but if you make a mod for xcom2 with the knife you made it does not belong to beth, it belongs to the xcom guys. for that mod, while the mod for beth games belongs to beth. (all in a legal sense.) Now this does not exclude you from rights for compensation for labor and time invested for a product sold. Which is another matter all together.

[Reneer]

I'm going to try and explain what is happening with FO4 modding and Bethesda.net.

 

I make a knife. It is an original model with original textures. Nothing was made with Bethesda assets and the knife will work with any game; Skyrim, Mass Effect:3, The Witcher 3, FO3, Morrowind, etc. But the moment I adapt it to work with FO4 Bethesda has claim to it, even though the knife doesn't require their software. That is what the FO4 EULA states. No previous Bethesda game EULAs have ever made that claim. If I am stupid enough to upload the FO4 version of the knife to Bethesda.net not only do they have tentative claim to my knife, but now they have a fully legal binding claim to it. That is what the Bethesda.net EULA states. They aren't worried if the knife is classified as a 'Game Mod'. They already own it as a condition of FO4 EULA.

 

These licenses and EULAs don't exist in a vacuum; they are part of a great whole.

Except they are separate from each other. The "customized game materials" in the FO4 EULA are not the same as the "game mods" in the Bethesda.Net EULA. The two EULAs explicitly contradict each other - the FO4 EULA:

(a) All Customized Game Materials created by you are exclusively owned by LICENSOR and/or its licensors (as the case may be) and you hereby transfer, assign and convey to LICENSOR all right, title and interest in and to the Customized Game Materials and LICENSOR and its permitted licensors may use any Customized Game Materials made publicly available to you for any purpose whatsoever, including but not limited to for purposes of advertising and promoting the Software

And the Bethesda.Net EULA:

Each Game Mod is owned by the developer of the Game Mod, subject to the licenses granted by the developer to ZeniMax as set forth in the Editor EULA.

Even if game mods were subject to both EULAs, which they aren't, the EULAs contradict each other on this very important point. Your knife mesh, textures, etc., would not be owned by Bethesda simply because you uploaded the Knife Mod to Bethesda.Net.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Reneer

[WursWaldo]

 

I'm going to try and explain what is happening with FO4 modding and Bethesda.net.

 

I make a knife. It is an original model with original textures. Nothing was made with Bethesda assets and the knife will work with any game; Skyrim, Mass Effect:3, The Witcher 3, FO3, Morrowind, etc. But the moment I adapt it to work with FO4 Bethesda has claim to it, even though the knife doesn't require their software. That is what the FO4 EULA states. No previous Bethesda game EULAs have ever made that claim. If I am stupid enough to upload the FO4 version of the knife to Bethesda.net not only do they have tentative claim to my knife, but now they have a fully legal binding claim to it. That is what the Bethesda.net EULA states. They aren't worried if the knife is classified as a 'Game Mod'. They already own it as a condition of FO4 EULA.

 

These licenses and EULAs don't exist in a vacuum; they are part of a great whole.

To clairfy they have all rights to the knife you make in regards to it's use in their games. You can use the same 3rd party tool asset you made in multiple IPs and it remains the same, they do not have rights to your content itself only to it in regards to it's application towards their IPs.

 

So the mod you make as a resource or to put into the game is theirs by right, but if you make a mod for xcom2 with the knife you made it does not belong to beth, it belongs to the xcom guys. for that mod, while the mod for beth games belongs to beth. (all in a legal sense.) Now this does not exclude you from rights for compensation for labor and time invested for a product sold. Which is another matter all together.

 

The only way to beat them at their own shill is to attach an existing Open Source license to anything made and then identify the FO4 versions as protected derivatives with the attached documentation. By Bethesda's own FO4 EULA they won't be able to claim it or use it.

And Bethesda can't avoid being subject to fair market compensation according to industry standards. They can't legally set and arbitrary percentage payout. I've been through all of this when I was using 3DStudio. It is the reason I switched to Poser.

 

EULA:

(a) All Customized Game Materials created by you are exclusively owned by LICENSOR and/or its licensors (as the case may be) and you hereby transfer, assign and convey to LICENSOR all right, title and interest in and to the Customized Game Materials and LICENSOR and its permitted licensors may use any Customized Game Materials made publicly available to you for any purpose whatsoever, including but not limited to for purposes of advertising and promoting the Software

And the Bethesda.Net EULA:

Each Game Mod is owned by the developer of the Game Mod, subject to the licenses granted by the developer to ZeniMax as set forth in the Editor EULA.

 

So the FO4 EULA states that Bethesda owns the content. The Bethesda.net EULA states modders own the content, unless the Editor EULA says they don't (what is underlined above). And you don't own it because that is exactly what the FO4 EULA states. They aren't contradicting one another. "You own it, unless you don't."

[PoliteRaider]

 

And the Bethesda.Net EULA:

Each Game Mod is owned by the developer of the Game Mod, subject to the licenses granted by the developer to ZeniMax as set forth in the Editor EULA.

So the FO4 EULA states that Bethesda owns the content. The Bethesda.net EULA states modders own the content, unless the Editor EULA says they don't (what is underlined above). And you don't own it because that is exactly what the FO4 EULA states. They aren't contradicting one another. "You own it, unless you don't."

 

Where is Fallout 4 defined as a Fallout 4 Editor?