Why should we believe shaun?

[TheGadget1945]

 

 

I have a problem siding with a guy who calls death of his father:colladeral damage.

And his mother is just an experiment to him.

There is something seriously wrong with this old guy.

 

You know, I have to say this is the best reasoning to not join the institute, besides when one thinks about it, all of the more recent "institute is bad" things happening in the wasteland are directly Shawn's fault.

 

 

Which brings me to a general problem of Bethesda games. Good storytelling would offer the chance for a turnaround. Even more so, since you're made part of the directorate. But it's only take the ride or anihilate.

 

 

I know it is only one guy but the Institute have abducted Roger Warwick, replaced him with a Synth and presumably killed the real Roger. All for the purpose of running a crop experiment.

As an example of their future plans for humanity it doesn't bode well.

[Wunderbot]

The way the Institute was handled is my main issue with the story of Fallout 4, really. They seemed to be afraid to make the Institute the 100% clear villain and ended up with something badly fleshed out. You always hear how evil the Institue is, but never see it. And there's evidence of plenty of outright evil things they've done, but you always find out about it afterwards. Taking out the Institute doesn't feel urgent or satisfying because throughout the entire game they're never really involved. They even say it themselves: they really don't care that much about the Commonwealth, they're fine just sitting in their underground base. You find out about several towns they've completely murdered and destroyed. Why not show us that? Let us visit the town first and return later to find everyone dead. Or even better, let us witness it firsthand, like with the Legion in New Vegas. Give the Commonwealth some truly evil goal, so we feel the urgency to stop them before they can accomplish it, like wiping the Commonwealth clean so they can rebuild it in their own vision, or actively wanting to eradicate humanity and replace them all with synths.

 

My guess is that they wanted it to feel like a "grey area" of morality. Leave room for the player to wonder if the Institute are really the bad guys, or maybe they're right. But that just doesn't feel satisfying, because you end up not really giving a damn about the "villain". And weirdly enough they did add in a lot of atrocities commited by the Institute, so if you sum it all up, there's really no way to claim the Institute isn't the villain of the story. But overall, nobody's the clear hero and nobody's the complete villain. But people in a game usually -want- to be either the hero or villain. Not some half-hearted inbetweener. My main character is the good guy, so I left all factions alive but the Institute. But it all just felt really "Eh, big deal, the Institute is gone". And I always make a secondary character to be completely evil with. But after doing all the Institute quests, I didn't really feel satisfied either, cause I didn't really do anything all that evil.

 

In the end, just think about it: what would change if you never destroyed the Institute? Truthfully? Barely anything. Their big ambition is to get a reactor online. Not a doomsday weapon or anything. Or not a reactor to power something evil. Just a reactor to keep their lights on. How lame is that.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Wunderbot

[cossayos]

 

 

I know it is only one guy but the Institute have abducted Roger Warwick, replaced him with a Synth and presumably killed the real Roger. All for the purpose of running a crop experiment.

As an example of their future plans for humanity it doesn't bode well.

 

 

But you kind of miss the point here. Forgive me if I'm reading it wrong, but what I meant to say is, you should be able to influence future decisions. In an ideal game, of course. So, what they did shouldn't be the finish line to decide on wiping them off the world or just to get in on the game. There should be some choice to steer them in a different direction.

[Wunderbot]

 

 

 

I know it is only one guy but the Institute have abducted Roger Warwick, replaced him with a Synth and presumably killed the real Roger. All for the purpose of running a crop experiment.

As an example of their future plans for humanity it doesn't bode well.

 

 

But you kind of miss the point here. Forgive me if I'm reading it wrong, but what I meant to say is, you should be able to influence future decisions. In an ideal game, of course. So, what they did shouldn't be the finish line to decide on wiping them off the world or just to get in on the game. There should be some choice to steer them in a different direction.

 

 

I agree, that would just make sense. But after what I said before, that option would just completely remove any sense of urgency or danger from the game. Because really, all it would take is for you as Director to say "Stop killing people to replace them with synths and just properly explain what you're trying to accomplish because there's no way that not a single farmer would volunteer to test out your genetically superior crops for you" and the story would just become even more boring than it was.

[robhartman9]

Fallout had a forced urgency. 300 game days to complete the quest or your fellow vault dwellers die. Game over you lose. There was a side quest that allowed you to buy some more time.

 

In the institute you can watch them make synths and they are pumping out a new one every 30 seconds. I think it would have been funny if the game mechanics randomly placed coursers at that rate who would attack on sight. If you didn't hurry you would be over run. Of course everyone would have just shot the guy in the cowboy hat and pressed on.

[MightyZ0G]

my Problem with Father is that he's been running the institute for a while but at no time does he do anything to rescue his frozen parent.

he gets reports of your activities after you escape the vault and instead of sending out a rescue party, he does nothing. he doesn't even call off the gen 2s that attack you all over the Commonwealth.

his only justification is that this would allow you and him revenge on Kellogg.

the fact that he could have revoked Kellogg's control over some gen 2s and sent an army of coursers after him to get revenge years before does nothing to support his claims.

 

would the Institute have any reason to lie just to get you on board?

well you are the "back up". you are one of a small number of people who haven't been affected by several generations of radiation . that was a good enough reason to kidnap Shaun in the first place.

[HeyYou]

Well, consider, Shaun was taken as an infant, and didn't really know his parents. All he knows for the last 60 years, is that he was raised by the institute. His bio-parents are probably pretty much not even a concern for him. He may have been curious at some point.... but, it's been decades. He doesn't have ANY memories of his 'real' parents. So, there is no real bond there.

[MightyZ0G]

that's the thing. he has no memories of his parents, but Father knows all about Kellogg killing one of his parents in V111 and claims that you killing Kellogg is also revenge for Shaun losing a parent.

Father claims that he never forgave Kellogg even if you say that you pity Kellogg after seeing his life destroyed by the gunners and how the Institute used him.

he knows all about the vault and why the Institute chose him yet he never sent a couple of synths to see if you were alive or not.

he could have had you rescued and taken straight to the Institute at any time, instead he arranges for you to be revived in the vault and then left to try and survive a hostile environment in the hope you will be able to get revenge on Kellogg, even though you are only left with a 10mm pistol and a little bit of ammo and Kellogg still has the support of the Institute.

even when you do finally meet up with Kellogg, Kellogg still has Institute support.

if Father really wanted Kellogg to die he could have shut down the synths helping Kellogg rather than having you destroy more Institute property.

Father doesn't put any distance between the Institute and Kellogg until AFTER you kill Kellogg and a Courser and discover how to enter the Institute, while sharing that discovery with at least one of the Institute's enemies.

Father's claim that he kept Kellogg in his employ to keep him from doing worse as a free agent is pretty weak considering that Father doesn't really care about people on the surface and could just as easily have had Kellogg killed at any time.

Father claims that the death of one of his parents was collateral damage that he has had a lifetime to come to terms with, yet he is the one who can't forgive Kellogg and you can't change his mind about that.

everything Father tells you seems to be damage control rather than a joyful reunion between parent and kidnapped child.

[Madcat221]

 

 

Still, it was rather strange that my character could not refute DiMA's assertion as to this possibility. Though it would be highly unlikely that we were a synth after everything that has happened.

 

 

There is one line I recall about a female Sole Survivor who had a one night stand she regretted in college, brought up in a conversation.

 

This, and Kasumi not actually being a Synth makes me think that DiMA is just grasping at straws with making humans think they're actually synths. Neither the Institute or Railroad have any such record about Kasumi.

 

Furthermore... why would the Institute regard you as human? The typical Institute member's track record in regarding synths as people is clearly absent. They have an entire bureau dedicated to upholding this DoubleThink, denying their personhood while simultaneously dedicating significant resources to dealing with the logical progression of such maltreatment: cognizance of their plight and desire to escape.

[Rethrain]

It would be great to not have a "black and white" decision when concerning morals in Bethesda games, but I know why they do it. Too much work to consider all variables/ramifications, etc.

Regardless I would love to have MORE options.

 

I find no real reason to not believe Shaun when he gives me his speech. Not that it makes things any better though. (Also Kelogg's position is open.) Though it does muddy things a bit. Mostly he's banking on your...kinship.