Guns or not Guns

[hoofhearted4]

break into my house, if idk you i will shoot you. moral of the story, dont break into my house.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

Point by point... here comes another wall of text, folks.

 

If you have some numbers and statistics for how many deaths the presence of guns have prevented then by all means. I think the point is these numbers point to criminals being armed and ready to shoot as quickly as someone will have the opportunity point a gun their way' date=' for all the reasons which you stated. It's a Mexican stand off. An armed society is not a deterrent for crime, nothing backs that up, if there is something then by all means.[/quote']

 

Firstly, I deliberately avoided making any direct assertions about defensive gun use statistics. These are not reported as crimes; thus no official records are kept. It is impossible to find reasonably reliable statistics for this reason; justifiable defensive gun uses generally result in no criminal charges against the wielder. Further compounding the problem, if no shots are fired then the media isn't interested either; 'homeowner scares burglar off with a gun' doesn't make a very exciting headline. The only places where one can reliably find detailed reports of defensive gun uses are pro-gun organizations; they are the only ones interested in the information. Obviously anti-gun organizations won't report lawful firearm use. Because the only reliable sources of statistics are inherently biased, so will the statistics be biased- I know of no objective source of statistics on defensive firearm use, whether shots are fired or not.

 

Here are the most recent statistics I could find for the US, collected by the FBI. Here's the breakdown by state. Crime statistics in border states may be skewed by an ongoing epidemic of violence in Northern Mexico; the US has a very porous southern border and these regions are heavily affected by the actions of foreign drug cartels. Florida, due to proximity to Cuba and other repressive nations in the Caribbean, also has a severe problem with 'imported' crime. Other areas have higher crime rates because of proximity to other violent regions (Harrisburg, PA is, for instance, less violent than Philadelphia, which adjoins the violent NJ cities of Camden and Trenton). Important also is the percentage labeled "area reporting"- less than 100% means that there are jurisdictions in that state which did not submit statistics. This also affects the final statistics. Note that the single most violent place in the US is and has long been our national capitol, Washington DC- which until very recently had in effect a total ban on the possession of handguns and still heavily restricts the possession and use of firearms. Violent crime in DC has decreased since the gun ban was struck down.

 

Gun control laws by state. Lacks some specifics such as whether states have shall-issue (must be granted to applicants with clean records)or may-issue (applications are left to the discretion of local officials)permit systems. NJ, for instance, has a may-issue system and permits are rarely ever issued. Likewise in CA. PA and FL have shall-issue systems, and grant permits to out-of-state residents. Some states recognize other states' permits, others do not- usually, a state will not recognize a permit from another state that has different permit requirements.

 

Here's the kicker, though- since the above statistics were collected by a government agency, they may or may not also reflect the policy of the present administration... like all statistics, they will reflect the attitudes of the people collecting and interpreting them. They are inherently unscientific since they cannot easily be traced back to their sources; such statistics thus cannot be relied upon as hard evidence of one viewpoint or another. There's no question that we've got an epidemic of violence that's been going on for some time... but as our gun laws have gotten less restrictive, our violent crime rates have gone down. Whether that's because there are more guns or simply a continuing trend that happened to coincide with the relaxation of gun laws (in particular the 1994 federal Assault Weapon Ban, which had nothing to do with automatic weapons). Then there's the ongoing "war on drugs"- much of inner-city violence is gang related, and gangs in this country generally support themselves by dealing drugs... so how much of that violence would continue to happen in the absence of guns? I'd love to see some statistics on how the earlier National Firearms Act of 1934 (which restricted automatic weapons) and Gun Control Act of 1968 (which restricted interstate firearm sales, among other things) affected violent crime rates, if at all... unfortunately I'm still looking for those numbers.

 

I bring up government policy as a possible factor in any collected statistics because of a certain ongoing scandal here in the states, in which the agency responsible for enforcing firearms laws (the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives) deliberately facilitated illegal gun sales to Mexican drug cartels in what appears (in my opinion) to be an attempt to manipulate statistics in favor of stricter gun laws. The administration, which directs all federal agencies, had previously made claims about the numbers of weapons being trafficked into Mexico- while the BATFE's ill-conceived gunrunning operation was ongoing. Our current administration leans towards the anti-gun side of things. Statistics are only as reliable as the folks collecting them. Make of that what you will.

 

If every one is armed with quite lethal weapons then everyone leans to shoot first' date=' whether criminal or who ever. [b']Which does lead to to people protecting their homes unlawfully[/b] and shooting an unarmed intruder and more occurrences of robbers being armed.

 

Two questions here- first, if having a weapon makes one likely to shoot first and ask questions later, then why has the incidence of violent crime decreased in states which have loosened their gun laws? Surely if the presence of a weapon were temptation to act without forethought, assault and murder rates would increase when shall-issue permit or permitless carry laws are introduced... yet the opposite has proven to be the case.

 

Second, what would you consider a reasonable reaction to a person having broken into your home? You have a right to be in your home; they do not. You have no way of knowing what their intentions are, and by entering your home unlawfully they have already demonstrated a willingness to violate the law. While there's a big difference between making off with a TV set and entering with intent to murder or rape, the lawful, rightful occupant does not and cannot know what that intruder's intentions are. I for one am not willing to risk my life on the assurance of a criminal that I won't be harmed if I give him what isn't his to take. He has already shown himself untrustworthy by violating the law. If he runs, I will not pursue him, but I most certainly will confront him and I will be armed when I do so... not because I desire to kill him, but because I wish to be ready should he desire to harm me. If a person cannot expect their home to be safe, then nowhere is on Earth and that is simply not an acceptable standard of living.

 

 

Now having said that' date=' in the US, I am pro gun. Having lived there and grown up with guns. It's a normal thing. [b']I have to say there are a LOT of illegal arms where I used to live.[/b] Its quite common for guns to be unlicensed with the stricter gun laws where I used to live in Baltimore city. I was offered full auto hand guns for very cheap on the black market, and I was just visiting. Oh well. different experiences in Texas, Virginia and Tennessee, where laws and gun culture are different. So even in the one country, there is the worst of it and not so bad. I wouldn't want someone to judge the police or the people go about gun circulation on just one place.

 

Points of interest highlighted... You've claimed things as fact here, but unless there's some evidence you can provide your statements ring hollow. I'm not trying to be offensive, but you've said that as a visitor you were offered fully automatic weapons... the tone of your statement implies that you didn't have to look very hard, or that the illegal dealer approached you. I hope you'll understand my incredulity... it is simply a little hard to believe that someone with no existing underworld connections in that area would be offered access to weapons that are only ever rarely seen used in crimes. Knowing that Baltimore is a city that suffers an ongoing epidemic of gang violence, it seems reasonable that if such dealers existed they would likely be associated with a gang... and gangs aren't exactly known for trusting strangers. So I repeat... what, exactly, were the circumstances of this black market offer that was made to you?

 

Having said that' date=' I am mostly against handguns in the UK, even in the home. I am fairly confidant it would increase the gun crime, probably would not reduce crime in any other area. It wouldn't be a solution to anything imo. If you haven't owned guns, I have lived with a 22 rifle in the UK and tbh you aren't missing out on any extra protection. [b']Home invasion by armed intruders is quite a rare occurrence I've only had my door booted down once[/b] by a raving loony bleeding everywhere and attacked me with a broken broom handle... he was 6' 6" with a tattoo of a union jack and scorpion on his head. I might have been in jail for blasting him if I had a gun. So I am kinda against them here atm. I'm open to persuasion, but I haven't seen a good, beneficial reason to have them here.

 

There is no evidence that UK gun control laws do anything to prevent crime. As of two years ago, you folks had the highest murder rate in Europe. Higher than Germany and France, both of which permit (with severe restriction) civilian gun ownership.

 

You've just described having been attacked by an apparently insane burglar with a blunt object... did you defend yourself? If so, with what? How could you be so sure this man didn't mean to kill you? The cultural divide is becoming more and more apparent to me every day... I can't understand why an entire nation would tolerate not being permitted to defend themselves, under threat of arrest and possible prosecution (which is punishment in itself- it costs a great deal of money and time to defend a criminal case, even if the verdict ultimately clears the defendant).

 

I think I'll just leave off there in the interest of folks being able to read it all in one sitting. ;)

Edited September 29, 2011 by Wrath_Of_Deadguy01

[Ghogiel]

Second, what would you consider a reasonable reaction to a person having broken into your home? You have a right to be in your home; they do not. You have no way of knowing what their intentions are, and by entering your home unlawfully they have already demonstrated a willingness to violate the law. While there's a big difference between making off with a TV set and entering with intent to murder or rape, the lawful, rightful occupant does not and cannot know what that intruder's intentions are. I for one am not willing to risk my life on the assurance of a criminal that I won't be harmed if I give him what isn't his to take. He has already shown himself untrustworthy by violating the law. If he runs, I will not pursue him, but I most certainly will confront him and I will be armed when I do so... not because I desire to kill him, but because I wish to be ready should he desire to harm me. If a person cannot expect their home to be safe, then nowhere is on Earth and that is simply not an acceptable standard of living.

This is what I mean by Mexican stand offs. Look I'm fully aware of life in places where there are high numbers of guns. imo the alternative to what the UK has now is not the better option, as in legalising handguns. Unless there is a benefit to society that allowing handguns in the UK might provide, I am open to persuasion on the matter, however I haven't seen a good argument for arming the populace with them here. imo it'll just get messy. just looking at the violent crime rates is actually an against point of gun ownership.

Now having said that' date=' in the US, I am pro gun. Having lived there and grown up with guns. It's a normal thing. [b']I have to say there are a LOT of illegal arms where I used to live.[/b] Its quite common for guns to be unlicensed with the stricter gun laws where I used to live in Baltimore city. I was offered full auto hand guns for very cheap on the black market, and I was just visiting. Oh well. different experiences in Texas, Virginia and Tennessee, where laws and gun culture are different. So even in the one country, there is the worst of it and not so bad. I wouldn't want someone to judge the police or the people go about gun circulation on just one place.

 

Points of interest highlighted... You've claimed things as fact here, but unless there's some evidence you can provide your statements ring hollow. I'm not trying to be offensive, but you've said that as a visitor you were offered fully automatic weapons... the tone of your statement implies that you didn't have to look very hard, or that the illegal dealer approached you. I hope you'll understand my incredulity... it is simply a little hard to believe that someone with no existing underworld connections in that area would be offered access to weapons that are only ever rarely seen used in crimes. Knowing that Baltimore is a city that suffers an ongoing epidemic of gang violence, it seems reasonable that if such dealers existed they would likely be associated with a gang... and gangs aren't exactly known for trusting strangers. So I repeat... what, exactly, were the circumstances of this black market offer that was made to you?

I'm from Baltimore city. I'm not a tourist snapping photos. I was just back in town. 3 guns, all brand new off the back of a lorry. I was in a private residence, not gang related. It's not the first time I have been offered guns in the US, it was just the last time it happened. It's pretty normal, the last time I told someone about how easy it is and how prevalent illegal guns are in the city, they think I'm making it up. I am 200% positive I wouldn't have to look very hard to get a gun. Mac 10s, AKs, all present and accounted for.

 

As for there being a lot of illegal guns in Baltimore city, I think there is, I'm not saying it has more illegal firearms than anywhere else, I have not defined what number a lot is, I am stressing there is a very clear problem there. DC and Baltimore areas are pretty much at the bad end of the spectrum for gun crime. And that is what I know. I even pointed out my wider exposure to different types of gun culture in the US, and am not completely biased by my experiences in these areas. If you can get any law enforcement stats on the number of illegal firearms on a per city basis, I wouldn't be surprised to find DC and Baltimore in the top half.

Having said that' date=' I am mostly against handguns in the UK, even in the home. I am fairly confidant it would increase the gun crime, probably would not reduce crime in any other area. It wouldn't be a solution to anything imo. If you haven't owned guns, I have lived with a 22 rifle in the UK and tbh you aren't missing out on any extra protection. [b']Home invasion by armed intruders is quite a rare occurrence I've only had my door booted down once[/b] by a raving loony bleeding everywhere and attacked me with a broken broom handle... he was 6' 6" with a tattoo of a union jack and scorpion on his head. I might have been in jail for blasting him if I had a gun. So I am kinda against them here atm. I'm open to persuasion, but I haven't seen a good, beneficial reason to have them here.

 

There is no evidence that UK gun control laws do anything to prevent crime.

It might be true that gun control laws have nothing to do with preventing crime, so? I'm not saying there is. In the case of the UK they keep the amount of guns circulating down that is for sure. What the evidence suggests is that there is always a direct correlation of gun ownership and gun crime. The legislation is irrelevant to me. It's the presence and prevalence of the guns themselves which seems to affect usage in shootings. Look at Europe: notice Switzerland, France, Finland are up there in actual firearm ownership percentiles. notice that they also have to most deaths attributed to shootings. Look at the inverse of the spectrum, England, Spain, Scotland, have the lowest gun ownerships in Europe per capita. And notice that deaths caused by firearms are also lower. Most places seem to follow this trend.

 

 

I'm not saying there will be more or less crime statistically if handguns are legalised in the UK, but I bet there just is going to be more gun crime, eventual outcome> leading to more violent gun crime. kinda of like same numbers, just different weapon. Actually since guns are more lethal than other weapons, I think more attacks might end up fatal if gun use increases. but thats just speculative

 

As of two years ago, you folks had the highest murder rate in Europe. Higher than Germany and France, both of which permit (with severe restriction) civilian gun ownership.

 

 

 

You've just described having been attacked by an apparently insane burglar with a blunt object... did you defend yourself? If so, with what? How could you be so sure this man didn't mean to kill you?

 

I was pretty sure he meant to kill me at the time. He wasn't there to burglarise, I heard at the final police showdown he ended up cutting his own wrists, with my kitchen knife as it happens, and was institutionalised for a couple years. The only reason why he was at my door was that the girl that dumped him lived on the top floor of the building. I escaped with minor injuries and a big help from a friend of mine. I nearly s*** my pants, but yeah I defended myself.

 

Anyway, as for violent crime/murder rate in the UK, ironically that year only had only 42 murders caused by guns. 3 from shotguns, 39 with hand guns.

 

But yeah it's pretty rough in places.. nearly anywhere you can get your head kicked in for nothing. I have been stabbed up right in front of 200 people in the fricking high street, so I know first hand how violent it can get. Right at that same spot just across the road about 3 years previous, one of my good friends got stabbed up, punctured lung, and nearly died. We have a little giggle and show each other our blood brother scars. :tongue: . And neither time was there anyone to take to court, culprits basically walked away laughing.

 

Look at the percentiles actually committed with firearms though. Even being the most violent, those numbers of actual gun homicides, not pepper spray, are actually kinda low. For example Switzerland, with it's population of 7.5mil, had 69 in the same year. Math on gun homicide per population means switzerland has far more gun crime per head. My personal opinion, even though there is a decent 4%ish percent of house holds with firearms in the UK, I reckon it's because they aren't as many handguns that there isn't more gun related homicides- being the most violent of the Europeans we aren't doing too good mind you, but why is gun crime very low. If you want home defence, get a shotgun. If I am right the bulk of gun ownership is going to be rural shotguns and rifles. I have seen exactly 1 handgun in private hands in the UK, but shotguns and rifles from my experience are much more common, yet their use in crime in much lower than the rarer and illegal handgun.

 

Now I just imagine getting blasted instead of stabbed or attacked with a stick. See where I am coming from? As is, in this country I don't need a firearm. If I was living in Baltimore I f***ing well would have one within the first week. If it was taking some time to process me for a license I would just get one for the time being until that passed, When in rome

The cultural divide is becoming more and more apparent to me every day... I can't understand why an entire nation would tolerate not being permitted to defend themselves, under threat of arrest and possible prosecution (which is punishment in itself- it costs a great deal of money and time to defend a criminal case, even if the verdict ultimately clears the defendant).

 

You can defend yourself, You just can't do it with handguns. The UK considers pepper spray firearms :tongue: . A lot of the firearm offences in the UK stats aren't actually for guns, it's mostly plastic bb firing air soft, pepper spray, they probably put sling shots on the firearm laws as well. :tongue:

 

Want home defence in the UK? Try getting a shotgun license. I know it could be simpler or more 'relaxed' to get set up. But at least you can live in a country with one of the lowest rates of gun homicides in the world. In the current situation, anyone breaking in has an extremely low probability of carrying, meaning you are not pranging out when someone opens the door with 2 feet of double barrel in their face. No Mexican stand off.

Edited October 3, 2011 by Ghogiel

[draconix]

I've always been a little begrudgingly pro-gun. Begrudgingly because I think back in the days before guns, you could defend yourself without one, but anymore it seems you can't. At least in the US, criminals have guns, and will continue to have guns regardless of the restrictions placed on the sale of said firearms. I believe in the right to defend oneself, and in this situation (Current-day America), that means having a gun.

 

I don't currently own a gun, but this discussion has reminded me that I probably ought to.

[Aurielius]

From the tone of this thread some of our European members might get the impression that we all need guns and or are armed to the teeth in the US. First off, yes I own several and have had a legal carry permit for many years BUT since we moved to our current locale in the 80's have yet had to defend my domicile from intruders. It's been a very long while since I carried my Wather PPK on outbound excursions. I still want the option of being able to defend myself and my loved ones but much prefer that I have not had to, but having a over and under pump Remington shotgun in the house loaded with a low velocity load insures that it will stay that way too.

 

"Si vis pacem, para bellum"

"If you wish for peace, prepare for war"

-Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus

[Ghogiel]

From the tone of this thread some of our European members might get the impression that we all need guns and or are armed to the teeth in the US.

The US compared to the rest of the world, could be said to be armed to the teeth. http://www.allcountries.org/gun_ownership_rates.html

 

However as for a need guns there, I personally think it really depends on where you are at and how exposed you are. Crime, and violence in general is heavily concentrated in poor areas. It's not all bad in the US in regards to the topic...but when it does go bad in the US, they don't pull their punches.

 

IMO most of the time and most of the places you might be and live, it likely won't make a difference having one or not. It can be pretty chill in the states. Same advice as anywhere: just watch yourself the surroundings, don't be stupid, and stay safe.

 

At this point I would like to say something about Baltimore city/DC area literally being one of the worst possible areas to get acquainted with US gun culture in, I don't judge all of America just on one place, and I hope no one else does.

 

"If you wish for peace, lead by example."

-Ghogiel

[antonkr]

From the tone of this thread some of our European members might get the impression that we all need guns and or are armed to the teeth in the US. First off, yes I own several and have had a legal carry permit for many years BUT since we moved to our current locale in the 80's have yet had to defend my domicile from intruders. It's been a very long while since I carried my Wather PPK on outbound excursions. I still want the option of being able to defend myself and my loved ones but much prefer that I have not had to, but having a over and under pump Remington shotgun in the house loaded with a low velocity load insures that it will stay that way too.

 

"Si vis pacem, para bellum"

"If you wish for peace, prepare for war"

-Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus

good point brought up here

The only reason nuclear weapons were never used is because during the Cold War was of fear of the other side having them.

If I knew that half my neighborhood has a shotgun loaded under their pillows I would not exactly want to break into the house overnight.

[dazzerfong]

The only reason nuclear weapons were never used is because during the Cold War was of fear of the other side having them.

 

If I knew that half my neighborhood has a shotgun loaded under their pillows I would not exactly want to break into the house overnight.

 

The first is mutually-assured destruction (MAD): there's an near-100% chance both sides are going to crumble. The second, however, you have much higher success rate.

 

I believe that firearms (using the correct terminology) should be used on a as-needed basis: I myself am a target shooter, handling single-shot .22 LR and .308 rifles in Australia (ah, the Model 44!). Now, when our rifles weight 6.48 kg (maximum for our class is 6.5 kg: heavier is sturdier), coupled with the fact the barrel is 32 inches and is only a single shot, I don't think anyone's going to 'ninja' anyone with that.

 

Personal defense is something that, fortunately, not something that is required often in Australia. Since Martin Bryant's killing spree, the most us civilians (unless you're a professional varmint hunter) can ever get is a 10-round bolt action rifle, no pistols (unless your profession requires it). However, since quite a lot of people here claim firearm ownership as self defense, there's a few things I have to ask you:

 

1. Are you ever going to get jumped, and

2. Do you think you're even that gung-ho you're going to pull your .44 out of your cabinet upstairs while the perpetrator sits around waiting for you to draw your gun? Or even if it's on your body, you're that steady under pressure you can even unholster it? Unless you're a professional soldier/mercenary, I don't think you can handle that.

 

In Australia, the only time someone really gets shot (barring exceptional circumstances) are those involved in the underworld, in which I don't really blame the lack of firearm ownership here. Recently, there was a schizophrenic patient who somehow managed to pass the psych exam, and was taught how to fire a handgun (a Ruger .22, if I remember correctly). Anyway, rather than returning the pistol to the gun-club, she took it home and shot her father. A lot of people are complaining how lax firearms laws are in Australia, but then, you would have to consider:

 

1. She was breaking the law, and

2. If she tried to kill her father with one of our Model 44 rifles, good luck even trying to get the rifle level.

 

So, in conclusion, I support firearms ownership, but not to the extent of automatic weapons. Though, if the chamber is sealed and the firing piston disabled, then I don't mind ownership of any weapons (short of a Tomahawk missile!).

[Aurielius]

"I'm from Baltimore city. I'm not a tourist snapping photos. I was just back in town. 3 guns, all brand new off the back of a lorry. I was in a private residence, not gang related. It's not the first time I have been offered guns in the US, it was just the last time it happened. It's pretty normal, the last time I told someone about how easy it is and how prevalent illegal guns are in the city, they think I'm making it up. I am 200% positive I wouldn't have to look very hard to get a gun. Mac 10s, AKs, all present and accounted for."

 

Interesting story, so what was the asking price of these non legal AK's or the Mac 10's? Should be an easy question to answer since the incident sticks out in your memory so well.

[Ghogiel]

"I'm from Baltimore city. I'm not a tourist snapping photos. I was just back in town. 3 guns, all brand new off the back of a lorry. I was in a private residence, not gang related. It's not the first time I have been offered guns in the US, it was just the last time it happened. It's pretty normal, the last time I told someone about how easy it is and how prevalent illegal guns are in the city, they think I'm making it up. I am 200% positive I wouldn't have to look very hard to get a gun. Mac 10s, AKs, all present and accounted for."

 

Interesting story, so what was the asking price of these non legal AK's or the Mac 10's? Should be an easy question to answer since the incident sticks out in your memory so well.

Yes, very easy answer.