Occupy Wall Street

[draconix]

I AM "the right," Aurielius. I don't know what you found insulting. Was it the joke about the tea-bags? Was it the fact that I pointed out that there is a difference between being "sincere" and being anti-union? Or was it my clear intention to contrast myself against Kendo, who decided to post a few opinions, then make a scene as he left this "mess," whereas I made it clear that I am actually looking to debate this?

 

I'm sorry if you took insult from any of that, it wasn't my intention.

 

Now that I've corrected my egregious error, (thanks for pointing it out, Granny but Aurielius beat you to it,) if one might be so kind as to explain to me why Aurielius took issue with the post I made, I would be most appreciative. :rolleyes:

 

Edit: Actually, I don't care why he took issue. He didn't make any arguments, so I guess he's actually irrelevant, and I'm still unopposed.

Edited October 6, 2011 by draconix

[Ghogiel]

"I think the solidarity with Greece is opposition to uncontrolled government spending."

Did I miss something here? Because this seems to say that the protests were about uncontrolled spending not the curtailment of spending which is what the protests were about. That running of a massive continuing unsupportable deficit by the Greek government is surely a road to financial ruin, that much I agree.

In Greece, people are protesting the measures that the gov has taken to reel in it's spending, that is correct.

 

But why this pertains to the occupy wall street protest is because people think the US gov is not spending wisely, and the tax payer is footing the bill.

The situation in Greece is caused by government not managing it's books well and BSing there way into a hole. Because of the fiddling with the numbers there was no warning that the government was even over stretching so far.

 

I'm wondering why there aren't more protests of the EU now uncontrollably spending, any screw ups there, eventually ends up getting passed onto the people.

 

It's a mess.

[Aurielius]

Edit: Actually, I don't care why he took issue. He didn't make any arguments, so I guess he's actually irrelevant, and I'm still unopposed.

So gracious of you to make my post on the pragmatism of successful protests in relation to the Wall Street concept irrelevant, that was an argument.

You seem fond of declaring premature victory once again before the other team leaves the field.

 

@Ghogiel

There is now a Greek thread ..see you there, I promise to be civil.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Aurielius

[ginnyfizz]

The point that seems to be missed, or ignored, is that the trade unions have a vested interest in heavy government spending and a bloated public sector, because it keeps their union barons in power. The unions are quite as happy to play with other people's money as the casino bankers of Wall Street and the City Of London are. When the time inevitably arrives that a government is elected that realizes that something has to be done, they start squealing like stuck pigs. We have had a series of protests about the reining in of public sector pensions here in the UK, which have elicited support only from those directly affected and loud jeers from those who DON'T have such generous benefits.

 

I hold no brief for these bankers (I could substitute another letter at the beginning of that word...)and wish our Coalition government would carry out their threat to rein in the bonus culture which leads them to take bigger and bigger risks - the excuse for the bonuses are that they need to retain their talent (that would be the talent that made RBS have to be rescued by the taxpayer, would it?) But I think that the Occupy Wall Street mob of class warriors ARE spouting a load of BS and should be addressing the unions as well as Wall Street. Trade union bosses too are wont to drive around in limousines and earn about ten times as much as their members - I know that my union GS, Red Len McCluskey, earns around ten times what I do!

 

And what were we saying about keeping it civil in that other thread?

So why don't we?

 

This isn't a competition or an all out war!

[Kendo 2]

THIS IS WHO IS DEMONSTRATING IN NEW YORK

Everything was being organized through Adbusters, an anti-consumer rag published in Canada. The central demand made by Adbusters was that Obama "ordain a Presidential Commission tasked with ending the influence money has over our representatives in Washington". This is a Canadian magazine, by the way.

Though intially leaderless the organzied protests on the ground are now being lead and organized by activists from Anonymous. There are no cohesive demands being made by the protesters on the street but I did pull these peripherals from their website:

 

*raise taxes on corporations

*raise taxes on the rich

*protect Medicare and Social Security

*end corporate welfare

*support trade unionism

 

The members of the website are curreny split between two lines of thought:

*those who want to draft focused demands about the unequal distribution of wealth in the United States (the socialists)

*those who want the protest to remain amorphous and to grow through spectacle (the anarchists)

 

About the union involvement:

Transport Workers Union of America Local 100 and the New York Metro 32BJ Service Employees International Union have pledged their support for demonstrators.

 

I pulled all of the info from the links on their web site: http://occupywallst.org/

 

It took forever and I wasted my time doing it. But at least NOW there are a few facts for people to play with.

[grannywils]

@Ginnyfizz "And what were we saying about keeping it civil in that other thread?

So why don't we"?

 

Good idea Ginny. Come on you guys. This is not hard to do. This is not personal. I happen to disagree with a lot of what Ginny and Aurielius have said. But I must tell you that both of them have shown more manners and class on this debate so far than most of you on my team have exhibited. I end up preferring to listen to them. Some of you just make my ears bleed for Heavens sakes.

 

The protest has merit in my opinion. I do not think the unions have a whole lot to do with where we are right now. They are the usual fall guy when corporations are on the block. I do believe the bankers got us into this mess, and I understand why we have taken it to them at this point. As I said in my original post, I am just not sure if this will do us much good, but I do believe that something's gotta give.

[marharth]

THIS IS WHO IS DEMONSTRATING IN NEW YORK

Everything was being organized through Adbusters, an anti-consumer rag published in Canada. The central demand made by Adbusters was that Obama "ordain a Presidential Commission tasked with ending the influence money has over our representatives in Washington". This is a Canadian magazine, by the way.

Though intially leaderless the organzied protests on the ground are now being lead and organized by activists from Anonymous. There are no cohesive demands being made by the protesters on the street but I did pull these peripherals from their website:

 

*raise taxes on corporations

*raise taxes on the rich

*protect Medicare and Social Security

*end corporate welfare

*support trade unionism

 

The members of the website are curreny split between two lines of thought:

*those who want to draft focused demands about the unequal distribution of wealth in the United States (the socialists)

*those who want the protest to remain amorphous and to grow through spectacle (the anarchists)

 

About the union involvement:

Transport Workers Union of America Local 100 and the New York Metro 32BJ Service Employees International Union have pledged their support for demonstrators.

 

I pulled all of the info from the links on their web site: http://occupywallst.org/

 

It took forever and I wasted my time doing it. But at least NOW there are a few facts for people to play with.

That is pretty much just a more detailed version of what I said, but I find it funny you think socialism=distribution of wealth.

 

Also there is a clear list of 22 demands if you would study it a bit more.

 

Everything is not organized by "adbusters", where is your evidence for that? People are grouping together in other cities without having any outside influence.

 

So to get this right, you think that its okay to pepper spray and beat up people you disagree with, and you think its wrong to protest banks?

[draconix]

@ Aurielius

Really? I wasn't aware that you thought that claim attacked my argument, because it doesn't. I'm not sure why you insist upon trying to place me as your opposition. I can't declare victory over a nonexistent opponent. I will dismiss you if just make baseless accusations that I'm trying to be insulting without actually arguing against my position. But I'll humor you.

 

The only part of your statement that you put forth that is not in line with what I stated was the following:

"It is disingenuous to assert that this is anything more than grandstanding for the cameras."

 

For a response, please return to the post to which you say you were responding where I wrote,

"The sincerity of the protesters in a protest of this size and duration can't be brushed aside with a blanket statement like that. Even in a small group of people like those on the debate forum, who have one big thing in common, we are diverse in our beliefs."

 

So to claim that everyone is just grandstanding for the cameras is presumptuous. There may be some who are, but there are definitely those that genuinely have sincere intentions.

[HeyYou]

Clear list of 22 demands? Where? I am unable to come up with it.

[ginnyfizz]

 

That is pretty much just a more detailed version of what I said, but I find it funny you think socialism=distribution of wealth.

 

 

:wallbash: but, marharth, it IS

 

Wikipedia on Socialism look at the Goals heading

 

The Two Methods For Distribution Of Wealth

 

I don't see Kendo, or anyone else. saying that it is wrong to protest banks. It is ironic and hypocritical to protest just the banks, because the unions are also fatcats who have played their part. And of course some of the protestors are anarchists who just like a rumble, rebels who probably don't give a monkey's about a cause.