On console mods, theft and Bethesda.net

[Sulhir]

In response to post #39480240. #39502500, #39505150, #39506260, #39506590, #39507165, #39507680, #39508455, #39508895 are all replies on the same post.

Vagrant0 wrote:

Posting a general reminder to people that although this is a heated topic, name calling and inciting others to hostility is not tolerated on this site. Have instituted a pair of 24 hour posting bans already to a pair of users who just could not calm down and avoid being personal. Other warnings will follow if necessary.

 

We can discuss, we can argue the validity of one point or another, but the moment you start insulting others you only serve to distract from the topic at hand. You don't have to agree, you don't have to like eachother, but you should remain respectful. The baiting, name calling, and general hostility needs to stop.

phantompally76 wrote: Does that include the OP?

Because the entire essay is filled with baiting, name calling, and general hostility, and by this website's own moderation standards, it should have already been deleted.

If the owner of this website is not prepared to hold himself to the same standards he mandates for the rest of the community, then why should anyone else?*

*Rhetorical question. I intend to continue to abide by the rules. But as a member of the Nexus Modding Community (regardless of whether I'm a supporter/premium or not), I expect said community's representative to the world at large to do the same. And so should everyone else.

arenthefox wrote: @Phantompally76 Where exactly is the baiting, name-calling, and general hostility in Dark0ne's article? He pointed out the issues with members of the modding community, the issues and flaws with Bethesda's new system, and his stance on it all.

If you're talking about the part where he called everyone who's arguing that consoles shouldn't have mods for no other reason than, "because PC is better," you know, the vocal and obnoxious minority of the gaming community, then I don't see the issue, because he's right. That argument is unjustifiable and incredibly stupid. It's pure elitism and it is only ever a detriment any community it's a part of, be it modding, gaming, or anything else.

boomerizer wrote: Well said, Aren

phantompally76 wrote: He certainly made all those points, but those points are buried deep within what I can only describe as a total meltdown. And that's what the media is going to focus on; not the content of the message, but the way it was delivered. His outburst makes us ALL look bad. If the CEO representing a community can't maintain his composure, then why should anyone take that community seriously?

Publicly blowing up at Bethesda because he wasn't invited to the table or consulted on their business doesn't serve this community in any capacity. And if one reads between the lines, that's what this is all about.

He stated in the very first sentence that he didn't want to write the essay. I wish he hadn't, at least in the form it has taken. And I imagine by now, so does he.

Dark0ne wrote:

Publicly blowing up at Bethesda because he wasn't invited to the table or consulted on their business doesn't serve this community in any capacity.

lol...that's totally what this is all about. My ego being bruised by not being asked for advice.

It's totally not about common decency, respect and the pretty insulting way in which they're ignoring key tenets of their very own modding community, at all. /sarcasm

He stated in the very first sentence that he didn't want to write the essay. I wish he hadn't, at least in the form it has taken. And I imagine by now, so does he.

You have a vivid imagination.

Spark01 wrote: I honestly don't blame Dark0ne. Some gamers are insufferable elitists. Plus he wasn't targeting it at an individual, and I think that's why it's considered okay.

I can see why you view the post as being hostile, though. Still, I imagine he's pretty pissed off. I would be too.

arenthefox wrote: @Phantompally76 I don't know what you were reading then, cause what I read was Dark0ne publicly pointing out all the issues and flaws in Bethesda's system and once again firmly stating the rules and guidelines of this community -- and really, any community that shares any kind of art -- that should be common sense and clearly is not.

Funeralwolf wrote: I've given up trying to stand up against the elitists of the community, I've reported several well known modders that have told a certain console portion of the community "to get cancer and their loved ones to die a horrible death" yet nothing was done about it. They continue to throw propaganda and preach for a peace that they do not seem to keep behind closed doors. So why bother if that doesn't violate any ToS or conditions?

I think if we stayed on topic it would be easier. The fact of the matter is it's unhappy times when you try so hard to build a sand castle, you see someone else builds a sand palace, and you see they've infested it with roaches. And here you are spending months and years keeping your sand castle roach free and how frustrating it is to see something that should have been cooler turns out to be a complete cesspit.

I think that's a good T L ; D R

[FalloutVeteran2009]

Good grief that's a long post. I'll come back later an finish reading it. XD

[Deleted1205226User]

Actually, if you like analogy, the present situation is more: you're homeless, long time you didn't had a good meal, somebody offers you a meal of quality (one he did with his own hands and payed from his pocket)

 

But you, instead of feeling gratitude, you're whining because it is not to your taste. Not only that, you start to steal the food he prepared and start to distribute it. But you don't care if the meal is not ready, or not totally cooked. You just stands by the logic "he was going to distribute it anyway..."

 

And on top of that you think the cook is ego inflated!

[MrJoseCuervo]

Dark0ne, I agree with some of what you said but I must remind you of a couple of things.

 

1) Console Users did not create this community or enable this site to become what it is today.

2) I am not aware of any contribution Console gaming has provided PC Users other then the dumbing down of game content across the board.

3) There is little chance for revenue to be made by you from console gaming unless you plan on selling us out in the future or that technology drastically changes, which I don't see happening any time soon.

 

In short I feel PC gamers have every right to be elitists to some extent because we are not just consumers, we contribute. I realize that our contributions are taken for granted by the industry and are only allowed to continue because they see a financial advantage in doing so, but regardless of that you cannot belittle people for wanting to protect this community from vultures who want to rake in as much profit with as little effort as possible.

 

I would suggest you remember who made your successful site possible and avoid sh!tting where you sleep. In the immortal words of President Obama, You didn't build that by yourself.

 

[budguinn]

Good read, appreciate and agree with everything. I have a console and just bought a PC version and look forward to 'playing' with it.

I'm glad I found this site.....a really like the attitude....and that the moderation team keeps a tight control. Using the bethesda site is really painful, but hopefully they will improve it.

Edit: I just noticed the complaint below me about paying for mods. I'd have no problem at all paying for a mod that works. I play on the console and just want to try some of the other stuff available....and have no problem with giving a few bucks to some one that took an incredible amount of time to make the game better and more enjoyable.

best regards,

bud

Edited June 18, 2016 by budguinn

[arenthefox]

In response to post #39498625. #39499265, #39499445, #39500430, #39500805, #39501145, #39503195, #39504680, #39505155, #39507590 are all replies on the same post.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Fallout 3
Release Date - October 28, 2008
Geck (v 1.1) - December 11, 2008

December 2009 - Already four major quests mods
Cube Experimental
A Note Easily Mist
An Evening with Mister Manchester
A Quest for Heaven 1

==============================
Fallout 4
Release date - November 10, 2015
Creation Kit (Beta !!!) - April 26, 2016

Great quest mods ( so far)... none

That's say pretty much all about Beth.
In the light of the last events, don't expect to see the "heavy" modders and modding team showing up... they wont.
Already a lot from the Nexus community jumped on... modders throats, already the same scenario from the pay mods uproar from the past year is repeating again with almost the same comentrolls !

It's tragic ( but also somehow fun for me ) to see how the Nexus community is tearing appart from inside out again, with a little push from Beth.
It seems that a lot of people here don't understand a simple fact : THERE IS NO COMMUNITY!
Nexus was, is and it will be a DOWNLOAD hub, regular users DON'T care from where they download a mod, as long is free., no matter is a PC mod or a console mod.
The immense majority of the users from Nexus and world wide don't give a sht about IP, copyright or mod stealing, they only want to download for FREE a lot of mods also for FREE, maybe less than 1.5% really care about what is happening ( from 10 mil registered users!)

Here on Dark0ne post page ( !!! ) there a lot of comentrolls insulting moders ( Douchebags, morons, spoiled child's, how many mods have you uploaded than ME... sound familiar?). Have someone reported them to sanitise the air?...

This very noisy and violent group of comentrolls have shifted the discussion from console modding and IP protection to modders morale and intentions... again.

Don't expect soon the great modders, they won't return to this toxic environment.

Have a nice day !

cridus wrote: and where will they go? I mean, if they want to keep modding.

WiIIPWN4KFC wrote: @cridus That's just it, they don't need to share their mods.

"9. Mod authors make mods for themselves first, and you second. If the second part, you, becomes too much of a problem for them, they’ll simply not want to share them with you at all."

cridus wrote: mmh I'm pretty sure that those modders that make huge mods with side quests, many npcs, etc. don't do them for themselves. also because, since they made them, they aren't gonna enjoy them as much as other people would, since they already know absolutely everything about them.

metalguy7312 wrote: I am curious as to what the release dates are on those four major quest mods were compared to the CK release date..
I am no mod creator on that level but I would think that less than two months past a BETA release on the CK isn't much time to be releasing huge quest mods but I could be wrong.

*edit to add that I guess I disagree with the OP and that given time, they (large quest mods) will come

foster xbl wrote: Completely spot on. OP hit the nail directly on the head.

Cha0s_lord wrote: @cridus

I stopped modding after oblivion. Since then, I occasionally edit skyrim mods to fit my personal taste and I use the skills I had learned with blender to make 3D art. All that makes me perfectly happy.
At the same time, new modders come, learn the ropes, and eventually they will be the one making the "big" mods. Life goes on.

CaladanAnduril wrote: MetalGuy - Just look at the release dates of those mods on FO3 page... but maybe you are right, we must wait and hope, after all the hope is dying the last. :)

RaffTheSweetling wrote: Yeah OK thanks. I'm making a quest mod or 2. It takes time. Should I not sleep? not play with my daughter? Not help my pregnant wife? You wanna know something
I actually upload pics from my WIP all the time, and the absolute lack of support, endorsements (ahem), comments (except from a small number of ppl), is far more discouraging that the "toxic atmosphere" on some other damn website. I actually get around a half dozen endorsements usually. While a pic of some giant frigging boobs gets a ton. I delete my pics usually because I feel like the community doesn't care if people like me do this work or not. That's the truth. From someone who makes quest mods.
And as far as I'm concerned, my quest mods are great. File of the month great. So you really need some patience, and people here really need to show more support and focus on helping by endorsing and being enthusiastic about more than breasts and guns and bricking consoles, for a change.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Ok Raff

I TOTALLY agree with your statements... but boobs and nudes and guns will ALWAYS get more attention than quest mod, who need six months ( maybe a year or more) to be finished.
And sometimes is wayyyyy to difficult for some minds.

Have a nice day

@Raffthesweetling Quest mods may not be the highest endorsed or most popular (let's be honest, sex sells and humans are, by-and-large, perverts), BUT, quest mods are awesome. They add more content and in a game like Fallout 4, I'm going to say I'm excited to see what you make, because even with all current DLC, I've ran out of quests to do and settlements to build. So I will wait, quietly but impatiently, for some quest mods :) Edited June 18, 2016 by arenthefox

[Kalell]

In response to post #39467495. #39507160, #39508060, #39508150, #39509035 are all replies on the same post.

GamerPoets wrote: This is something that I shared in a different forum/site and while that topic was slightly different it was still brought about because of the topic here. I thought I'd paste what I wrote here for those of you who care to read it.
------------------

This is a generalized statement. I have no problem talking directly to individuals if I feel that I need to lol, so don't think that I'm beating around the bush. I just felt the need to share my thoughts on the subject at large. If I didn't respect everyone's comments thus far I wouldn't take the time to type this. There are some people that I have a lot of respect for who are posting in this topic, who have done a lot to help me on my modding journey and I wanted to share my thoughts with them.

What I feel this all comes down to is this...

Creative property in any form (music, television, paintings, mods) is one or more people devoting a large amount of their life (whether it's hours, weeks, months or years) to something that they believe in one way or another.

Regarding mods and nexus and other sites, there should definitely be some sort of check box or something that says "yes, allow others to use my mod as they wish" "no, you cannot upload it elsewhere" " after this amount of time you can... blah blah blah" or whatever.. you know? I also feel that once someone uploads a mod that shouldn't be able to just pull it away from those who use it by removing it (I'll say why at the end of this book I'm writing lol) But none of that exists yet as far as I know so it's a moot point.

So..

To guess at what someone else is feeling about this subject, if they have not said anything either way about it, (before disappearing or not) or to think that they "should" feel how you do on the subject (whether they actually do agree or not) is selfish, un-thoughtful and borderline narcissistic among other things. Words have definitions and regarding this situation to take someone else's work (and don't be fooled, because whether it is "fun" or not it is "work") is to be those words and that type of person. (The type of person that most people in this community want nothing to do with and to not be a part of. Which is the only reason why people like me even consider to continue being a part of it and to put so much effort into what we do. There is enough BS in "real life" that I don't need it to ooze into my passions or hobbies and many feel that way, too. The reason that many stick around the community, and continue to create mods and to support it, damn sure isn't the replay-ability of Skyrim for 5 years+lol).

Summary of all that: If you don't know how someone feels it's not your place to assume (that's with anything in life)...continuing on =)

If someone says that credit is enough then cool, credit them and do as you wish. But if someone states that they want their mods only on nexus then they should be respected. You don't know what creating that mod did for this person. It could have been their way to get through a tough time in life. It could have been something that they poured every piece of themselves into creatively to prove to themselves that they could do it. It could be a simple form of therapy or just a hobby. Perhaps the mod author has something against the other sites. Perhaps the mod author has a strong personal connection to nexus and they want to give back to it for whatever nexus "gave" to them personally when they needed something to be given to them. It's not your "right" to guess or to even be allowed to know how they feel unless they care to share their reasons with you.

When someone pours as much effort into their creative works as many mod authors do, taking their mod and uploading it elsewhere is like me taking anything that you have worked hard on, that you hold dear to yourself, and tossing it around in the mud like it's no big deal. ...Yes, that's exactly what it's like to some people and it's not your decision to say that they shouldn't feel how they do about it. As a human being you should respect their efforts and the fact that they made it public for anyone to use at all. More importantly, you should respect their feelings and your potential lack of understanding about them.

On the other hand, when someone makes a song and sells it (just an example) and puts it on the radio there are large amounts of people who will fall in love with it. Once you have created something and given it to the world it is no longer 100% the creators. It's just not. There's no two ways about it. When you allow someone else to develop an attachment to something (minor or large, emotional or whatever) that you have created you have entitled that person to be able to listen to it, watch it, or use it, whatever it is as often as they care too or need to. If the initial requirements were for that person to pay for it upfront so be it. If the wishes of this person were for you to only play with these works on a specific version of a game, then that is what they are. You don't need a law to tell you how not to be an A-hole. If you have the desire to bring that mod to a "new level" then "you" "need" to do the work and put that same care and effort into as the original creator did to both respect and honor it and not just "bootleg their CD" and give it out elsewhere... because when you do that you go from being a supporter who deserves you're own piece of what you fell in love with, regarding their work, to a hustler (which I know a great deal about in "real life" lol). A hustler who may not have only ruined this experience/passtime/hobby/passion/whatever that a mod author (person) once needed but you have potentially robbed them of their passion by tainting it with selfish actions. Who know's what creating these mods really allowed this person to get through in life. And if they are being a dick to others... have you heard how horrible people in comments can be and how annoying? I didn't create a video called "The (bad placed here word lol) Song" for nothing. Perhaps this experience has already been ruined for them and they only keep their mods up on nexus out of respect for some or with hopes of regaining the feeling that they once had for this community.

As I stated at the beginning of this long wall of text... "it comes down to this"... to be a decent human-being and to understand what it means to be one.

If anyone doesn't understand that (and the majority of what I have wrote) they have a lot to learn about this very short life that we are living. Not everyone who creates a mod views them as "trading cards".

Sure, modding is about having fun and sharing that fun with other people... TO YOU, that is what modding is =) ... and mostly to me = )... but that doesn't mean that our, my, or our thoughts and feelings allow us to take something that we didn't create and to do what we wish with it. Mods may be pass-times and ways to not be bored for some but for others they are life saving acts of creativity or monuments of personal growth.

-----------
after typing this all out there was a comment that had been written in between and I liked what was said as it helped to define the point even further

Anonymous Poster: "All I’m saying is...I do not think Leonardo da Vinci has a right to say that no alterations of the Mona Lisa can be made. I think it is ethically acceptable for these to exist, even if the author does not want them to."

----------------
Me: I like the Mono Lisa statement. You're right and people DO modify the Mono Lisa all of the time. However, they aren't allowed to simply paint over the original copy. They have to either recreate it from scratch and make adjustments as they go or use a photocopy of some sorts, but still, it's not the original version... not to mention that Leo has been long dead and his emotional attachments to his work are probably justifiably assumed to no longer be what they once were... however, we still do everything that we can to protect and honor the original... what a sexy lady she is lol

Goodnight.

jace14 wrote: if bumps are allowed in this forum, here is a bump

CaladanAnduril wrote: Str8 to the point ! Bravo !

boomerizer wrote: I second this bump.

And to further, it's not that I don't appreciate the modders that create the work.
I just don't hold any real care about the origin. Only that the mod that I see is available for use. I don't know many modders by name. Even for the mods that I absolutely love-- Skyrim ones, specifically. I know Azar but that is only because each mod ends with "by Azar". Beyond that. I don't know who made Falskaar. I don't know who made Forgotten City. I don't know who made Better Shaped Weapons. But I absolutely love these mods for Skyrim.

For Fallout 4, I use NCR Veteran Ranger Armor, Patriotic Shield and Commonwealth Cuts. I don't know the names of the modders. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate that they are available to me. Two of those three mods aren't available on Xbox though. And that makes me a sad panda.

That said, NCR Veteran Ranger armor WAS at one point available in a mod pack (Spawn Items) that allowed a user to spawn items from the game, as well as included others' mods, including NCR VRA. The author of Spawn Items did not credit the mod author of NCRVRA and to me, I can't really see why they are upset because once uploaded to the internet, you should want your work distributed. ( I mean does it really matter WHO downloads it? Just that someone is enjoying it?)

I mean, I don't know the name of the cook that makes my gourmet burgers at BT's or Five Guys or wherever I order my burgers from. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate the burger delivered to me by the waiter/waitress. We thank the waiter/waitress when the food is brought to us, but the person that actually MADE the burger goes thankless.

Think that makes any more sense? I mean, seems relevant to me..

arenthefox wrote: My eyes hurt from staring at this post, but I agree with everything. Of course, you said it a lot better and nicer than I'd ever be able to.

When someone creates a mod I like I always check to see what the username of the person is when I go back to endorse the file. I've made a few mods myself and I know how much time and effort goes into making them. Checking to see what the authors name is is the least I can do in return for them sharing their work, and it will help me recognize anything else they do in the future. I'm not sure why anyone wouldn't want to know the name of someone that worked really hard on something they liked and uploaded it for people to use for free.

[zcul]

Fully support your idea (not the diction here and there :wink: ) Dark0ne, and appreciate the Nexus subsequent policy in tracking and punishing mod abuse and game piracy in general.

Modders/authors deserve effective support in protecting their copyright and in claiming the remove of their abused or stolen work without „convoluted“ and „user-unfriendly“ processes - mainly by those that run the up- and download services/sites. Your 5,100 word-article is quite reasonable to me … the more I read some comments here – not appreciating at all modders' work (shared for free, btw.) - that are like a slap in the modder's face ….

I am confident the community can stand the current issue as well.

 

Edited June 18, 2016 by zcul

[crawe1x]

Dark0ne, an excellent and well-reasoned article. I for one really appreciate the great work and dedication that you and your team do here at Nexus Mods. Bethesda have made some excellent games, but when it comes to managing a modding community, they could learn so much from you guys.

[vram1974]

In response to post #39510315. #39511175 is also a reply to the same post.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: Dark0ne, I agree with some of what you said but I must remind you of a couple of things.

1) Console Users did not create this community or enable this site to become what it is today.
2) I am not aware of any contribution Console gaming has provided PC Users other then the dumbing down of game content across the board.
3) There is little chance for revenue to be made by you from console gaming unless you plan on selling us out in the future or that technology drastically changes, which I don't see happening any time soon.

In short I feel PC gamers have every right to be elitists to some extent because we are not just consumers, we contribute. I realize that our contributions are taken for granted by the industry and are only allowed to continue because they see a financial advantage in doing so, but regardless of that you cannot belittle people for wanting to protect this community from vultures who want to rake in as much profit with as little effort as possible.

I would suggest you remember who made your successful site possible and avoid sh!tting where you sleep. In the immortal words of President Obama, You didn't build that by yourself.

boomerizer wrote: MrJoseCuervo:

Nice, coming from someone that stole their name from a tequila brand.

OK so
1) Many PC gamers I'm sure own consoles. Myself included. But you may be partially right. I've only endorsed one thing in the last year.
2) Well, until you invent the console controller that includes 108 keys (not including mouse functions), then "dumbing down" is insanely short sighted, bigoted, and beyond ignorant.
3) Egh, I don't understand the point of that jumble of garbage.

Nobody reserves any right to be elitist in any extent. Not only are you being elitist, but you are being an exlusionist-- as if there are people that SHOULDN'T be allowed to enjoy mods. Simply because of the platform they choose to play on. Console mods have only been available for a month. PC mods have been available for nearly 30 years. I don't want to hear s#*! about console gamers not being contributors. Not everyone that owns a gaming quality PC only owns a PC. I own a PC, a Macbook Pro, an XBox One and a PS4. We also have a 3DS and PSVita (had two of each for a time) At one time we also had a WiiU in the house.

So, for you, I would not recommend shitting on gamers. You know. People that aren't elitist. People that don't choose sides in platforms because each has their advantage.

You know why I have consoles? Because I don't want to have to worry about whether or not my PC can run it. Or having to download multiple third party programs to get something to work.

Y'know, even on PC I play Skyrim and Fallout 4 with an Afterglow wired Xbox One controller. It's not "dumbed down", its streamlined. Dumbed down is what SOE did to Star Wars Galaxies in 2007. Dumbed down is what Ion Storm did to Deus Ex: Invisible War (yes, to make it more accessible to console gamers because CONSOLE GAMING IS A HUGE MARKET).

Whether you like it or not (and I know you don't), but consoles are a huge part of gaming. Video games would not be anywhere near as big as they are today without the Nintento Entertainment System. Which, y'know, was a console. In case you forgot. Mario, video gamings biggest mascot...from a console game. Master Chief, y'know from Halo. Another video game juggernaut... console. You don't have to like it...

But you should learn to respect it.

> In short I feel PC gamers have every right to be elitists

Agreed with everything you wrote.