On console mods, theft and Bethesda.net

[MJR]

In response to post #39567530. #39569960, #39571210, #39573305, #39575275, #39579020 are all replies on the same post.

Sackroad wrote: I'd like to start off by saying that I play Fallout 4 on the PS4. I'm a console user. But I've also played Skyrim and FONV on PC and have used mods. And all I'd really like to say is I have the upmost respect for the modmakers out there. They throw their creative talents into their work and produce excellent DLC-quality content. I've seen so many high quality mods and I've enjoyed them. For modmakers to create these and put them out there, for free even, for other people to enjoy.. It truly is a wonderful thing.

That's why this situation with bethesda.net has me worried and disappointed. My PC isn't the best for gaming, which is why I got the PS4 to begin with. When I heard that Fallout 4 would eventually get mods on consoles, I got excited. I had thought I would just have to go with whatever extra content Bethesda produced, which isn't bad but after having used mods in other games, is a step down. But then with the mod thefts, and people getting angry at consoles, it seemed like mods on console would dry up before I got the chance to use them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not here to cry about that. I understand wholeheartedly why mod creators are upset. This is their hard work being stolen, and often they're being openly taunted on top of that. It's horrible, and it makes me mad. All I ask is that you keep in mind that not all of us console users are like this. Some of us know the hard work that all of you put into your mods. Some of us greatly respect it, and all we want is the chance to enjoy your hard work LEGITIMATELY. Some of us refuse to download a stolen mod. I for one refuse. I won't put my enjoyment ahead of someone else's efforts.

So.. try to remember. There are those of us on console who support you mod makers out there. Your efforts aren't in vain. Please give us the chance to show that we will only support LEGIT mods. You may be pleasantly surprised. Thank you for your time.

ravernware wrote: well said.. imo
Nuff said? I think we all get the point. Dark0ne has poked the nest, as he should have. The bees are buzzing. Buzz little bees buzz. Busy busy little bees.

phantompally76 wrote: Yep, and those bees are going to end up stinging this community to death.

ravernware wrote: how so? please enlighten us.

Tahnval wrote: The easiest and most profitable way for Bethesda to respond is to ban mods from all sources other than Bethesda. Big businesses tend to like a monopoly and they tend to be more geared towards simple solutions using their lawyers than complex solutions. If Bethesda decides there's a problem with modding, bringing all modding under their control will be the obvious solution to them. It's conceptually simple, they're already geared up for it and it increases their power. It also positions them to make more profit more easily from paid mods. There would still be dodgy pirate sites and torrents, but there wouldn't be any reliable, safe, easy to use source for mods. Some customers would complain...but they'd comply. Now would be the best time to do it, since the necessary infrastructure is all in place and a large proportion of their customers aren't used to mods and therefore aren't used to anything better. For console gamers, any mods at all is a new thing and a good thing. So now's the best time to make sure they're don't expect anything as good as Nexus and PC modding in general.

So that's how the bees could sting this community to death...and probably will.

Namea wrote: Bethesda would never do that. They know they'd never sell games again. Their business model for years has been "Release broken game with great promise and let the modders fix it and live up to that promise."

@Namea: That's just not true. Bethesda's games have sold a ton on consoles even before any of them had mod support (on consoles). Even if Bethesda killed modding completely, in all forms, their games would keep selling, and it would happen even on PC. PC numbers would suffer, but personally I doubt it would be by a large amount.

[SeinSchatten01]

"Why are they back now? What are their motives? Are they only here because I’ve become popular and successful? Do they actually care about me or do they only care about their own interests?"

 

Paid mods. That'a why. First test balloon failed, the second one will succeed. And all the money goes straight to Bethesda, no need to split with Steam.

[jfisha]

First of all, what the hell happened to my community? I can't believe that Dark0ne is talking about people being proud of their gaming medium and believing it to be superior, and comparing us to "bigots", as if console players are somehow a victimized minority.

 

We used to be a proud people.

 

Now, saying that, I don't care about mods on console and I'll be damned if I ever think I have the right to tell a mod author where he/she can release their mods. It's their mods. If they want to give it to the kiddos, that's their business. However, it irks me when I hear my console friends asking me why this or this mod isn't released on Bethesda.net. Why a mod they really want is tied to F4SE. "Why can't we have everything we want!?!?"

 

I haven't commented on this whole issue since it began so I wanted to get that in before people started screaming, "You're one of those douche bags Dark0ne is talking about!" I haven't commented here or on any other platform. Perhaps I'm taking this all wrong? I don't know, but hearing a person whom I look up to like Dark0ne spend half of his article talking about how people who think the PC is superior are (and here's where it got me) "bigots"? Just couldn't let that go.

 

It's just a fun little tribal rivalry that goes back more then a decade, yet I see a bunch of people on the Nexus acting as if they're standing up against injustice like they're MLK. Don't worry, folks. There's not going to be a knife fight between console and PC players in the back alley if you admit that you think PC's are a better platform.

Edited June 20, 2016 by jfisha

[cridus]

In response to post #39528730.

RealmEleven wrote: Hi Dark0ne, from the other side of the world...

I do love the sound of one hand clapping in the morning.

I think it's past due on this particular group of topics. Speaking of which, well done keeping it under 6000 words. There's a lot to say about this because it really IS a complex issue.

People of different temperament have different motives for doing any given thing; including modding. For some of us, it's about having a bit more fun with the game and, with all the people trying to tell others how to make their decisions and judging anyone who is not just like them, those of us just wanting a bit of fun feel far less inclined to publish anything. For others, it's about the esteem that comes from other people's appreciation of a job that is well done and, in the absence of any credit for the work, these ones have no reason to contribute. For some, its always about money and, for yet another minority, it's about "doing the right thing"; evidently, as long as they, themselves, are not the ones having to do the hard yards. For some, it's about sharing an experience and there are also those who use modding to collaborate with others in their experience of a game which does not allow for multiplayer engagement. Some, even, are strongly motivated by the sense of empowerment which comes from finding new and creative ways to force the game engine to operate, reliably, well outside its design parameters.

Just because some, or even most, don't care about a given motive doesn't mean that motive is “deviant” or invalid in any way. It just means that some people are woefully ignorant about the fact that there is no such thing as “normal” behaviour because temperament and behaviour are, statistically, multimodal not normal. The only way to “just get on”, in the face of this factual social diversity, is to avoid doing things which violate the rights of others. And rights are simply the reasonable expectations which arise, in common, from the participation of all concerned in a particular activity (E.g. intellectual property rights). There is no point, no matter who you are, in investing time and effort into anything if you are to be deprived of the benefit you perceived arising from the time and effort in question. To this end, we all have every right to choose not to invest the time and effort, just as we all have the right to choose to invest our time and effort – and it seems to me that it's the kind of people, who are accustomed to having other people do their dirty work, who are generally the first ones to pass judgement whenever they dislike a decision someone-else has every right to make. This is the real hubris (not to be confused with pride, which is a healthy emotional response to personal achievement) and it's this arrogant attitude to the liberties and freedoms and rights of others which is the biggest part of the problem, as I see it.

So, to sum up:
When something is not ones call to make, it's not ones call.
Period. Full Stop. Heave to and reef the sails!
Some people need to get over it or get therapy.

bravo! why did nobody reply to this?

[SjoertJansen]

In response to post #39467495. #39507160, #39508060, #39508150, #39509035, #39511705, #39513590, #39513965, #39514025, #39514065, #39514440, #39515975, #39523015 are all replies on the same post.

GamerPoets wrote: This is something that I shared in a different forum/site and while that topic was slightly different it was still brought about because of the topic here. I thought I'd paste what I wrote here for those of you who care to read it.
------------------

This is a generalized statement. I have no problem talking directly to individuals if I feel that I need to lol, so don't think that I'm beating around the bush. I just felt the need to share my thoughts on the subject at large. If I didn't respect everyone's comments thus far I wouldn't take the time to type this. There are some people that I have a lot of respect for who are posting in this topic, who have done a lot to help me on my modding journey and I wanted to share my thoughts with them.

What I feel this all comes down to is this...

Creative property in any form (music, television, paintings, mods) is one or more people devoting a large amount of their life (whether it's hours, weeks, months or years) to something that they believe in one way or another.

Regarding mods and nexus and other sites, there should definitely be some sort of check box or something that says "yes, allow others to use my mod as they wish" "no, you cannot upload it elsewhere" " after this amount of time you can... blah blah blah" or whatever.. you know? I also feel that once someone uploads a mod that shouldn't be able to just pull it away from those who use it by removing it (I'll say why at the end of this book I'm writing lol) But none of that exists yet as far as I know so it's a moot point.

So..

To guess at what someone else is feeling about this subject, if they have not said anything either way about it, (before disappearing or not) or to think that they "should" feel how you do on the subject (whether they actually do agree or not) is selfish, un-thoughtful and borderline narcissistic among other things. Words have definitions and regarding this situation to take someone else's work (and don't be fooled, because whether it is "fun" or not it is "work") is to be those words and that type of person. (The type of person that most people in this community want nothing to do with and to not be a part of. Which is the only reason why people like me even consider to continue being a part of it and to put so much effort into what we do. There is enough BS in "real life" that I don't need it to ooze into my passions or hobbies and many feel that way, too. The reason that many stick around the community, and continue to create mods and to support it, damn sure isn't the replay-ability of Skyrim for 5 years+lol).

Summary of all that: If you don't know how someone feels it's not your place to assume (that's with anything in life)...continuing on =)

If someone says that credit is enough then cool, credit them and do as you wish. But if someone states that they want their mods only on nexus then they should be respected. You don't know what creating that mod did for this person. It could have been their way to get through a tough time in life. It could have been something that they poured every piece of themselves into creatively to prove to themselves that they could do it. It could be a simple form of therapy or just a hobby. Perhaps the mod author has something against the other sites. Perhaps the mod author has a strong personal connection to nexus and they want to give back to it for whatever nexus "gave" to them personally when they needed something to be given to them. It's not your "right" to guess or to even be allowed to know how they feel unless they care to share their reasons with you.

When someone pours as much effort into their creative works as many mod authors do, taking their mod and uploading it elsewhere is like me taking anything that you have worked hard on, that you hold dear to yourself, and tossing it around in the mud like it's no big deal. ...Yes, that's exactly what it's like to some people and it's not your decision to say that they shouldn't feel how they do about it. As a human being you should respect their efforts and the fact that they made it public for anyone to use at all. More importantly, you should respect their feelings and your potential lack of understanding about them.

On the other hand, when someone makes a song and sells it (just an example) and puts it on the radio there are large amounts of people who will fall in love with it. Once you have created something and given it to the world it is no longer 100% the creators. It's just not. There's no two ways about it. When you allow someone else to develop an attachment to something (minor or large, emotional or whatever) that you have created you have entitled that person to be able to listen to it, watch it, or use it, whatever it is as often as they care too or need to. If the initial requirements were for that person to pay for it upfront so be it. If the wishes of this person were for you to only play with these works on a specific version of a game, then that is what they are. You don't need a law to tell you how not to be an A-hole. If you have the desire to bring that mod to a "new level" then "you" "need" to do the work and put that same care and effort into as the original creator did to both respect and honor it and not just "bootleg their CD" and give it out elsewhere... because when you do that you go from being a supporter who deserves you're own piece of what you fell in love with, regarding their work, to a hustler (which I know a great deal about in "real life" lol). A hustler who may not have only ruined this experience/passtime/hobby/passion/whatever that a mod author (person) once needed but you have potentially robbed them of their passion by tainting it with selfish actions. Who know's what creating these mods really allowed this person to get through in life. And if they are being a dick to others... have you heard how horrible people in comments can be and how annoying? I didn't create a video called "The (bad placed here word lol) Song" for nothing. Perhaps this experience has already been ruined for them and they only keep their mods up on nexus out of respect for some or with hopes of regaining the feeling that they once had for this community.

As I stated at the beginning of this long wall of text... "it comes down to this"... to be a decent human-being and to understand what it means to be one.

If anyone doesn't understand that (and the majority of what I have wrote) they have a lot to learn about this very short life that we are living. Not everyone who creates a mod views them as "trading cards".

Sure, modding is about having fun and sharing that fun with other people... TO YOU, that is what modding is =) ... and mostly to me = )... but that doesn't mean that our, my, or our thoughts and feelings allow us to take something that we didn't create and to do what we wish with it. Mods may be pass-times and ways to not be bored for some but for others they are life saving acts of creativity or monuments of personal growth.

-----------
after typing this all out there was a comment that had been written in between and I liked what was said as it helped to define the point even further

Anonymous Poster: "All I’m saying is...I do not think Leonardo da Vinci has a right to say that no alterations of the Mona Lisa can be made. I think it is ethically acceptable for these to exist, even if the author does not want them to."

----------------
Me: I like the Mono Lisa statement. You're right and people DO modify the Mono Lisa all of the time. However, they aren't allowed to simply paint over the original copy. They have to either recreate it from scratch and make adjustments as they go or use a photocopy of some sorts, but still, it's not the original version... not to mention that Leo has been long dead and his emotional attachments to his work are probably justifiably assumed to no longer be what they once were... however, we still do everything that we can to protect and honor the original... what a sexy lady she is lol

Goodnight.

jace14 wrote: if bumps are allowed in this forum, here is a bump

CaladanAnduril wrote: Str8 to the point ! Bravo !

boomerizer wrote: I second this bump.

And to further, it's not that I don't appreciate the modders that create the work.
I just don't hold any real care about the origin. Only that the mod that I see is available for use. I don't know many modders by name. Even for the mods that I absolutely love-- Skyrim ones, specifically. I know Azar but that is only because each mod ends with "by Azar". Beyond that. I don't know who made Falskaar. I don't know who made Forgotten City. I don't know who made Better Shaped Weapons. But I absolutely love these mods for Skyrim.

For Fallout 4, I use NCR Veteran Ranger Armor, Patriotic Shield and Commonwealth Cuts. I don't know the names of the modders. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate that they are available to me. Two of those three mods aren't available on Xbox though. And that makes me a sad panda.

That said, NCR Veteran Ranger armor WAS at one point available in a mod pack (Spawn Items) that allowed a user to spawn items from the game, as well as included others' mods, including NCR VRA. The author of Spawn Items did not credit the mod author of NCRVRA and to me, I can't really see why they are upset because once uploaded to the internet, you should want your work distributed. ( I mean does it really matter WHO downloads it? Just that someone is enjoying it?)

I mean, I don't know the name of the cook that makes my gourmet burgers at BT's or Five Guys or wherever I order my burgers from. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate the burger delivered to me by the waiter/waitress. We thank the waiter/waitress when the food is brought to us, but the person that actually MADE the burger goes thankless.

Think that makes any more sense? I mean, seems relevant to me..

arenthefox wrote: My eyes hurt from staring at this post, but I agree with everything. Of course, you said it a lot better and nicer than I'd ever be able to.

Kalell wrote: When someone creates a mod I like I always check to see what the username of the person is when I go back to endorse the file. I've made a few mods myself and I know how much time and effort goes into making them. Checking to see what the authors name is is the least I can do in return for them sharing their work, and it will help me recognize anything else they do in the future. I'm not sure why anyone wouldn't want to know the name of someone that worked really hard on something they liked and uploaded it for people to use for free.

boomerizer wrote: For the same reason I don't bother with the credits at the end of a TV Show, Movie, or Game.

PinkSamantha wrote: "When someone pours as much effort into their creative works as many mod authors do, taking their mod and uploading it elsewhere is like me taking anything that you have worked hard on, that you hold dear to yourself, and tossing it around in the mud like it's no big deal. ...Yes, that's exactly what it's like to some people and it's not your decision to say that they shouldn't feel how they do about it. As a human being you should respect their efforts and the fact that they made it public for anyone to use at all. More importantly, you should respect their feelings and your potential lack of understanding about them."

Couldn't say it better myself.

And, uh... Mono Lisa? As in, Non-Stereo Lisa? I hope it's just a typo.

But seriously, thank you very much for the opinion.

PinkSamantha wrote: edit: damn, double post. If Robin, Dante, SirSalami or any staff is around, would you mind to remove this post? Thank you very much and sorry for the trouble.

Kalell wrote: So you just don't care to know who the people are that make the entertainment you enjoy, so long as they are allowing you to use it? In the case of media that you pay for I understand that, but recognition is the only thing mod authors get.

PinkSamantha wrote: @Kalell
Just ignore him.
And thanks for the opinion. Completely agreed with you.

boomerizer wrote: Well, in the case of TV and Movies, its more or less "I don't know this person." Like, do I really need to know who the gaffer is?

I like paying attention to voice actors, in games. Thats about the extent of my attention to credits. I don't really look at coders, QA testers, artists etc. Nobody knows who they are, except them, and the people that they worked with. Your average consumer isn't going to know them, and isn't going to go Google searching the persons life story.

Doesn't mean they aren't appreciated in assisting in bringing us this entertainment. Sound quality wouldn't be very good if the gaffer didn't hold that stick up for hours at a time.

Likewise, with Mods, I presume my download and continued use of the mod would be appreciation enough.

GamerPoets wrote: Dolby 1.1

Hey man, apologies for reading your comment so late. Very eloquently written and very true.

It's a nice piece that goes to the core of it without the, quite frankly, brainless flame throwing that is and has been going on in this comment section. I form strong opinions on these topics, as you know, but I generally keep quiet until the raving madness has subdued a little, because when I start I tend to ramble on for a long time.

For some reason people tend to lower themselves to a standard that goes below that of the "hustlers" discussed... It always puzzles me...

This community exists thanks to the creativity of many mod authors, but as I said before, the majority is a user, not creator, their role in this community is often underestimated. Still, one cannot deny that an ever growing fraction of the user base feels entitled beyond their, sometimes legal, rights.
It is hard to stop or prevent the theft of mods, even with active moderation in place it will be hard to tame, we shall see.

Whatever will become of console modding or modding in general, whether we think it good or bad...Or both. Change has come, and will continue. We can fight it, and gain nothing and loose a lot... Or we can adept and make our best efforts to turn it into something positive. The outcry of mad mobs may have delayed the inevitable coming of paid mods (thankfully), but we sure did pay a price ;), as always. This battle is no different...

-Joe

Edited June 20, 2016 by SjoertJansen

[boomerizer]

I'm almost afraid to post anything, less the torches and pitchforks come back.

 

The only thing that can happen to console mods:

1) Scrapped entirely. But if this happens, it won't just be console mods, it'll be mods for Bethesda games entirely. Mods merely augment the experience. They aren't essential to it.

 

2) Paid mods. Highly unlikely, actually. Console users already have to pay a subscription service on top of internet service, and on top of buying the game and often, the DLC for it. Paid mods will definitely make mod thieving exponentially worse. ((EDIT: I'd also like to point out that this paid mods bullshit is currently baseless. Sure, it may have happened with Steam Workshop in this manner, but it is highly unlike they will attempt it again on another platform just because they did it on the first platform. There is nothing confirming that this is where Bethesda is going with it, and I refuse to follow that fire of mindless dribble and fear. If you have proof that Todd Howard [or any Bethesda spokesperson] has said that they plan on making mods paid, then you have an argument to stand on-- if not, well...stop talking about it? Because it is wasted effort.))

 

3) Things will continue going as they are going. May slow down for a bit, due to the growing pains, but all in all, the world will carry on.

Edited June 20, 2016 by boomerizer

[midtek]

Obviously pirates don't care about owners' reasoning. You need a gun to make them stay away while they enjoy breaching the gate so always need to stay vigilant. Nexus has greatly performed that vigilante, but things seem to be shifting from the company. Curious if Bethesda will provide real protection. Not many company actually care about after-service once it got the profit. And if the cut from paid mods will cover the expense too. If I am right, there can be more than just random torrents once paid method get settled. Interested to see what changes.

[bchick1]

My wife comes to me this morning and asks me " ... what is this recurring charge of $$$ to 'Blacktree Gaming ?? Why are we paying this?" I replied, "... the best money I have ever spent. I am on it every day and it is probably the most professional mod site on the web. Now leave me alone, I'm about to kill a nest of mutants with my new LSW rifle !!!"

I have never liked consoles, will never have one ... for all the obvious reasons. But I will never be so prejudiced as to deny mods to people who love and use consoles. I do not understand why a 'religion' has grown up around this.

Nexus, keep up the great work you are doing!

[iXenite]

 

 

First of all, what the hell happened to my community? I can't believe that Dark0ne is talking about people being proud of their gaming medium and believing it to be superior, and comparing us to "bigots", as if console players are somehow a victimized minority.

We used to be a proud people.

Now, saying that, I don't care about mods on console and I'll be damned if I ever think I have the right to tell a mod author where he/she can release their mods. It's their mods. If they want to give it to the kiddos, that's their business. However, it irks me when I hear my console friends asking me why this or this mod isn't released on Bethesda.net. Why a mod they really want is tied to F4SE. "Why can't we have everything we want!?!?"

I haven't commented on this whole issue since it began so I wanted to get that in before people started screaming, "You're one of those douche bags Dark0ne is talking about!" I haven't commented here or on any other platform. Perhaps I'm taking this all wrong? I don't know, but hearing a person whom I look up to like Dark0ne spend half of his article talking about how people who think the PC is superior are (and here's where it got me) "bigots"? Just couldn't let that go.

It's just a fun little tribal rivalry that goes back more then a decade, yet I see a bunch of people on the Nexus acting as if they're standing up against injustice like they're MLK. Don't worry, folks. There's not going to be a knife fight between console and PC players in the back alley if you admit that you think PC's are a better platform.

 

 

I think you need to read the post again if that's what you took from Dark0nes statement.

[fuzziewuzzie]

How about, as a way to counter piracy, to add a useless script requiring F4SE to any mod that you don't want on consoles. It wouldn't work, right? I don't know too much about modding but making it not work or crash on console seems like a good way to curtail the theft of a mod. It's like those magnetic strips that deactivate stolen goods at the store. (I think).