On console mods, theft and Bethesda.net

MajorFreak · June 22, 2016

In response to post #39507270. #39507355, #39507735, #39512260, #39516275, #39529370 are all replies on the same post.

arenthefox wrote: Basically, for those of you that couldn't finish reading this article for one reason or another, here's the gist of it.

- The mod authors ALONE own their mods and Bethesda and Zenimax ONLY own licenses to them.

- Bethesda needs to police their s#*! better.

- If you did not create a mod, then you have no goddamn right or privilege to upload it anywhere UNLESS the actual author has given you permission to do so.

- Console gamers are NOT beneath PC gamers and PC gamers are NOT beneath console gamers; we're ALL gamers.

- Saying console gamers shouldn't have mods at all just because they're not PC gamers is a freakin' stupid argument and if it's your argument then YOU are stupid. This is also a completely valid point, because this kind of unnecessary and idiotic elitism is nothing but a detriment to the community.

- And finally, mod authors do this s#*! for FREE and the content is mainly for them, NOT you. That means they don't have to upload it to any site or platform they don't want to, AND they don't have to listen to anyone that wants to demand, whine, or request they add something to their mod or make a new one. Don't like it? Don't use the mod and/or make your own.

CAUTION: This post is a paraphrase of the above article and may not include every single point made, and while attempting to be insult free, it may still offend some readers.

boomerizer wrote: It's a good/accurate paraphrase. Thanks for doing so.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Nailed... well said!

arenthefox wrote: Shameful self-bump...
Cause maybe more people seeing this might help stop some of the asinine comments, or at least clear up some confusion with the article.

sp4rkfist wrote: Bump.

arenthefox wrote: Another bump. Especially since despite thanking me for this, Boomerizer clearly doesn't get about three points I made or is part of the group attempting to troll this forum and actually gives zero f*#@s about the authors.

EDIT: If self-bumping is bad, then oops; I'm sorry ^^

and as a further bonus, here's some of the most informative and least vitriolic comments i've found so far in pages 15-31
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Nice speech. Totally agree, the best part is when you said "Mod are made yourself first not for others". I can tell you even now Bethesda doesn't care about modding. It does only in the direction of buying time to make new games. In the end the great gain for Beth is the added longevity given to (lets be onest) on half maded games. after 5 years of work of community modders you can say NOW Skyrim is a game with no bugs. That's pretty much a nice customer service economy. I would always accept a gift from beth with my face in Fry Meme (not sure if). About the scripted block for console, can be added to the default scripts in TesEdit to be added to .esp file maybe?
Alaebasta
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I'd have to disagree with your belief that mod authors "should" do anything. Like Dark0ne said, they don't need to do anything, at all, like creating mods in the first place, let alone sharing them with anyone. They put their time and effort into something, they can do whatever the hell they want (short of illegal activities). He also stated that some mod authors just can't/don't want to make/maintain mods on two different sites and three different platforms, especially if the only thing they own is a PC. It's no problem for our new console community brethren to only own one system, but in essence, people are pretty much asking PC users to own all three, maintain versions for all three, and if they don't, well tough s*** for them, they NEED to. Gopher had to purchase an XBox One because he has a certain standard for anything he releases, but guess what, he's a big name MA, and actually can make a decent living by really working in this community, which is amazing for him. The vast majority of MA's are not as fortunate or as dedicated. This is something they do because they love creating, they hated something that bugged them, or they were bored, and added something to the game, to make it (hopefully) better, and then decided to share it as well after. Creating and sharing do not automatically go hand in hand. From DDProductions83 GTKYMA, some of the big name MA's started because something bugged them or they wanted something that just wasn't in the game. Others had used other people's mods, and when they finally created something, they wanted (read: chose, decided) to share it with the community that had given them something.
And yes, no one should expect Bethesda to suddenly fix everything right away, but one of the main points that Dark0ne was talking about was that this is not a new situation for them. Plus, they have 14 years of knowledge and advice to use, and yet, they decided to just ignore everything. This "time" you want to give them, well, they had 14 years.
No one can say for certain whether paid modding will ever try to return, NO ONE. But based off Bethesda's recent actions, as well as re-releasing a 5 year old game on new consoles, with modding being yet again one of the big selling points, why would they put so much effort into a community they have largely ignored for almost a decade and a half (for which they would not be nearly as successful as they are now since let's face it, without mods, Bethesda games are not as great as they seem to be) without at least wanting to make some more money? Yes, they will make money from reselling Skyrim, but by giving away the new version to PC users (read: the people they need to create and maintain mods), they would be stupid to not even at least considering making money off of "labor-less" DLC.
TLR. I agree with Dark0ne, disagree with many points of Jusey1, and really, really hope Bethesda does something as quickly as possible to fix this situation they partially helped to create. I love their games, but only after I discovered modding and the community. Oblivion on my XBox was okay, but I never finished it because of it's many vanilla problems. Then I gave Fallout 3 a try, and found modding, and their games are now my favorites of all time. This community is awesome, and we'll need to work together to keep it awesome, but Bethesda needs to find their place in it, not the other way around.
malakengago
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The part that bothers me the most about all this is that the modding community thought that they had made their point when they argued over the many issues posed with making mods pay to play, and now they are using console players to make money off of modders work anyway - by advertising this special edition to new console players who will finally get to play Skyrim with mods and cash out for a new version. I am a console player turned PC player because of the amazing PC mods I found here on Nexus, and I feel like this change of events is a slap in the face to the PC community, and to players in general.
"Want skyrim to not look like s***? Here's some subpar enb-ish graphic enhancements for you, and oh - download everyone's mods for free and get the mods that make the real difference to the game! Just for you console ps4/xbox players - buy the special version now! Only 79.99!"
The lions share of the 'remastering' will already have been done by the mod authors themselves. including essential bugfixes, and none of that new cashflow will ever be going to anyone else but to Bethesda. They could care less who the mod authors are; in the end, they just want new cashflow for Skyrim, and they've found a way without having to compensate mod authors for anything.
Preeum
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I know it seems truly important to everyone in the modding community but the note on which you finish - the certainty that Bethesda will eventually get their s*** in order - I contrarily do not see that occurring even eventually. I'm sure there are people that work there that see the problem and want to correct it dearly. But I can almost guarantee that they do not have that same mentality your team does. They will not hire a team of moderators. The tedious DMCAs will probably be par for the course as this goes along rather than self policing. Plus as you yourself noted, rightly so, they still need to make the site worthwhile.
All that being said, I have no issue with being wrong about that. I hope I am. I'd love for someone to be able to say in the future to me, "I told you Beth would do it right, you pessimistic bastard". I simply don't share that same level of optimism.
Finally, thank you for adding those additional uploading checkboxes. It's a nice touch. Anything that makes things more cut and dry is to my liking. Now go get some rest
khmp
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I typically bought these games when they came out on console. Years back there was far more upheaval in hardware requirements than there has been the last few years. I still have a few consoles and pcs from a decade ago. Having finally built a good pc there's absolutely a difference but my decade old pcs are obsolete with no usable components outside of their hard drives and connectors. After FO4 I'm not sure... Probably won't again. While it was nice that they focused on their lore-unique items, they left an enormous void prior to mods atop the small feeling and the clumsy creation feel the game has not just in the settlements but throughout the map with glaring issues many places.
Frankly you have an enormous community that is incredibly diverse. Cannot imagine it's a part-time gig running the strings to keep it in line. I can't help but think that unfortunately these larger companies end up with lower staffs and with more difficulty creating comprehensive fair plans for dealing with content being used against permission. Hopefully Bethesda is able to get their act together. There's a lot that most people will want to do, much that people won't care about, and more that basically everyone will do. There's also what nobody will condone and what cannot be tolerated as well though, and not cracking down on it quickly and decisively will not do them favors. Some larger file hosts have successfully not cared for years- but for a publisher/developer to have stolen or obscenely explicit content on their site for long can't be tolerated for long. I hope that word choice conveys it well- obscenely explicit since it is a mature game, is rated for having intense violence and sexual themes but there are boundaries beyond legal and reasonable moral standards.
Unfortunately, in this day and age too many people do not understand "because I don’t want to and because I can do whatever I want and you have no right to tell me what to do" is still so very true and relevant to others as well as themselves.
bobothedinosaur
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In the light of the last events, don't expect to see the "heavy" modders and modding team showing up... they wont.
Already a lot from the Nexus community jumped on... modders throats, already the same scenario from the pay mods uproar from the past year is repeating again with almost the same comentrolls !
It's tragic ( but also somehow fun for me ) to see how the Nexus community is tearing appart from inside out again, with a little push from Beth.
It seems that a lot of people here don't understand a simple fact : THERE IS NO COMMUNITY!
Nexus was, is and it will be a DOWNLOAD hub, regular users DON'T care from where they download a mod, as long is free., no matter is a PC mod or a console mod.
The immense majority of the users from Nexus and world wide don't give a sht about IP, copyright or mod stealing, they only want to download for FREE a lot of mods also for FREE, maybe less than 1.5% really care about what is happening ( from 10 mil registered users!
Here on Dark0ne post page ( !!! ) there a lot of comentrolls insulting moders ( Douchebags, morons, spoiled child's, how many mods have you uploaded than ME... sound familiar?). Have someone reported them to sanitise the air?...
This very noisy and violent group of comentrolls have shifted the discussion from console modding and IP protection to modders morale and intentions... again.
CaladanAnduril
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Here's a question that may not be asked often. But if Bethesda approached you regarding account linking between Nexus and Bethnet (and I guess Steam) would you be open to that idea or are there insurmountable problems with it?
Asrien
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I agree with most of this. So many people are taking the PC Master Race joke too far and are becoming obnoxious asshats. But... you seem like you really hate Beth.net. Though, admittedly, I'm not a webpage designer, from a user standpoint: it works. It's not the prettiest, but to say it's a terrible site that disgusts me, I don't know about that. It's missing a few features, like a couple of sorting options, but especially for console, using it is just fine. I find what I need, by category and user ratings. I can even leave comments to communicate with mod authors. I can favorite, and do pretty everything I need for a mod database.
It seems like Beth is stepping up their game by tying Beth.net accounts to Steam accounts. If you're caught stealing mods, your Beth.net account is banned, and that's linked to your Steam account, so you'd need to make a new Steam account and buy a new copy of Fallout 4 to continue uploading mods. That is, unless there are workarounds and holes in the fence I just don't know about. Plus, this is no replacement for proper moderation and hiring more fresh blood to run Beth.net. Really, I appreciated how they took the severity of the issue (albeit, not responding with equal force), supporting users who found stolen content with DMCA notices and takedowns. Though slow and inefficient, they're a *censored* to process all around, and it shows that Bethesda views mods as the sole intellectual property of their modders. I don't feel like Bethesda ever "left", this is the first time they've ever been this open as a studio before. If you feel it necessary to call me a pawn, white knight, fanyboy, or boot-licker, then fine. Since everyone's sharin' their views and feelings, I felt I should, too.
Garfunklestein
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I agree with most of this, and have some personal observations:
1. We should treat console mods with the same respect as the PC mods, alike to race-free immigration. There's no need to shun console mods, since they are a good idea, but it's not without it's faults.
2. The whole DMCA thing is pretty crappy. The problem with the DMCA is that, in order to be covered, you need to have registered with the DMCA. This opens problems since a lot of modders probably haven't registered, or maybe don't even know about DMCA registration, meaning that proprietors of stolen content could potentially register themselves on DMCA, therefore meaning the content is *legally* theirs.
3. Bethesda.net seems to me to be a pretty bad idea, or at least they shouldn't have released it in it's current state. My problem with it is, that I don't feel the need to use it. I get that feeling about the Steam Workshop sometimes, but not because it's not where the modding community is, but I just find the site un-optimized and mods could be found quicker by going to a modding forum. Then again, I feel the whole steam site could be better.
4. Personal opinion, but if I was Bethesda I would have worked with the modding community so it does not require to migrate to a new service, but instead integrate it with the Nexus. I know this probably takes longer, as well as costs more, but a lot of these problems could have been avoided while giving users a good system from the get-go given that the core structure is already made.
5. Console mods: I feel like these may get official implementation from Sony / Microsoft, but I don't think that would be a good thing since it also opens the opportunity to charge for use of the service. I don't know if the current system requires a PS+ / XB Live subscription, but still, it's bad if they could. Ex. Bethesda, paid modding.
Omalleypike
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That might be true as I used to be one before 2010, but that doesn't change the fact that in this specific case, this user hasn't contributed in a sinlge way to the community. It's obvious already what kind of person this is. It's a consumer with no sense of the modding community. I agree that there are lurkers in the community, but if you never endorse, post, reply or whatever, you're not a part of the community. Simple as that.
I love the modding community, I really do. But I will NEVER, like these members that post comments like this when in reality they have no clue of what they're talking about, especially when they don't contribute.
A mod is that mod's authors work. Regardless of size, the origninal author is indeed the author. That person put his or hers time and effort into that and YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO TAKE THAT AWAY FROM THEM. According to me, it doesn't matter what the consumers think, that's not relevant at all. Because it's not their work.
JN273
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the upsetting thing about this whole thing is that it looks like Bethesda figures Mod Authors have no lives and spend their free time filing DMCAs. I mean, it just implies Bethesda really has no clue about maintaining and supporting games, just pumping them out half-finished and being so clueless about how the community can help police stolen mods...their silence on the matter speaks volumes
...besides a mythical "curating" reference that doesn't seem to allude to the steam system of curating, but something else along the lines of how other modded games are controlled completely by the developers (at least that's what i take away from their cryptic blog post)
Actually, what i take it for is a veiled threat against LoversLab type mods...or even bouncing boobs and butts. who knows. Can you imagine the shitstorm if they looked responsible for 'Defeat'?
majorfreak Edited June 22, 2016 by MajorFreak

ahnkra · June 22, 2016

This too shall pass.

I have no idea if you have time or interest enough to read all the comments your post has garnered, so adding my two cents worth could be pointless. But, with that dim hope in mind, I reply all the same.

I played FO4 for about two weeks before I finally reviewed it on STEAM. I grudgingly gave it a thumbs up, and spelled out exactly why I was disappointed yet still felt the need to go against a lot of my fellow players who were expressing similar disappointments and endorse the game anyway. I joined the chorus in bemoaning the short comings I felt were present, and yet gave credit to Bethesda in creating a perfectly playable game even if it was not the game I had been hoping for. Most Importantly I felt the need to give kudos to our Modding Community and share my faith in them to fix and or add what it was that I and so many others felt was missing.

In the end I think my endorsement of FO4 and Bethesda and my faith in our community were both well placed. Over the months that have followed the release of the game, lots of little fixes and content has been added to the game by the creators. The DLCs for the game have certainly reflected a lot more of what I was originally looking and hoping for, with choices and consequences and the ability to affect and change the world around me really being present. And the mods available continue to grow every day, being created and shared by people Ill never meet, with whom the only interaction I usually have is a little "thumbs up" button, to say thank you with.

I completely agree with you when you say that eventually Bethesda will right what's wrong, and that it will take longer for them to do it than anyone is happy about. They first have to see that its in their own self interest to do so. Once that realization dawns on them its only a matter of implementation (or coding as you said lol). And this and all the other "conversations" out there are the means we have to help bring that realization to them.

So smile, be calm and carry on. The community you helped build, that you and I and the modders and the downloaders and even the trolls who light the fire under everyone's feet just to see what will happen are all a part of, will continue to survive and even thrive and a year from now we will no doubt all be upset over something else and discussing it amongst ourselves.

Signette · June 22, 2016

It's quite good read, besides the fact that there are some seriously crazy stuff mentioned in this article like... it gives you an impression that console players are some kind of caged beasts, that don't have ANYTHING in their "cages", besides console. And totally neglecting the fact that overwhelming majority of those console players have been enjoying mods for both new FO and TES for years now, because both of these games (except FO4) runs pretty much on any toaster very well, and no matter how much consolized mind some player may possess, they still would have at least laptop, which means all those astonishing mods they could have been using in galore.

MajorFreak · June 22, 2016

In response to post #39467495. #39507160, #39508060, #39508150, #39509035, #39511705, #39513590, #39513965, #39514025, #39514065, #39514440, #39515975, #39523015, #39583820 are all replies on the same post.

GamerPoets wrote: This is something that I shared in a different forum/site and while that topic was slightly different it was still brought about because of the topic here. I thought I'd paste what I wrote here for those of you who care to read it.
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This is a generalized statement. I have no problem talking directly to individuals if I feel that I need to lol, so don't think that I'm beating around the bush. I just felt the need to share my thoughts on the subject at large. If I didn't respect everyone's comments thus far I wouldn't take the time to type this. There are some people that I have a lot of respect for who are posting in this topic, who have done a lot to help me on my modding journey and I wanted to share my thoughts with them.

What I feel this all comes down to is this...

Creative property in any form (music, television, paintings, mods) is one or more people devoting a large amount of their life (whether it's hours, weeks, months or years) to something that they believe in one way or another.

Regarding mods and nexus and other sites, there should definitely be some sort of check box or something that says "yes, allow others to use my mod as they wish" "no, you cannot upload it elsewhere" " after this amount of time you can... blah blah blah" or whatever.. you know? I also feel that once someone uploads a mod that shouldn't be able to just pull it away from those who use it by removing it (I'll say why at the end of this book I'm writing lol) But none of that exists yet as far as I know so it's a moot point.

So..

To guess at what someone else is feeling about this subject, if they have not said anything either way about it, (before disappearing or not) or to think that they "should" feel how you do on the subject (whether they actually do agree or not) is selfish, un-thoughtful and borderline narcissistic among other things. Words have definitions and regarding this situation to take someone else's work (and don't be fooled, because whether it is "fun" or not it is "work") is to be those words and that type of person. (The type of person that most people in this community want nothing to do with and to not be a part of. Which is the only reason why people like me even consider to continue being a part of it and to put so much effort into what we do. There is enough BS in "real life" that I don't need it to ooze into my passions or hobbies and many feel that way, too. The reason that many stick around the community, and continue to create mods and to support it, damn sure isn't the replay-ability of Skyrim for 5 years+lol).

Summary of all that: If you don't know how someone feels it's not your place to assume (that's with anything in life)...continuing on =)

If someone says that credit is enough then cool, credit them and do as you wish. But if someone states that they want their mods only on nexus then they should be respected. You don't know what creating that mod did for this person. It could have been their way to get through a tough time in life. It could have been something that they poured every piece of themselves into creatively to prove to themselves that they could do it. It could be a simple form of therapy or just a hobby. Perhaps the mod author has something against the other sites. Perhaps the mod author has a strong personal connection to nexus and they want to give back to it for whatever nexus "gave" to them personally when they needed something to be given to them. It's not your "right" to guess or to even be allowed to know how they feel unless they care to share their reasons with you.

When someone pours as much effort into their creative works as many mod authors do, taking their mod and uploading it elsewhere is like me taking anything that you have worked hard on, that you hold dear to yourself, and tossing it around in the mud like it's no big deal. ...Yes, that's exactly what it's like to some people and it's not your decision to say that they shouldn't feel how they do about it. As a human being you should respect their efforts and the fact that they made it public for anyone to use at all. More importantly, you should respect their feelings and your potential lack of understanding about them.

On the other hand, when someone makes a song and sells it (just an example) and puts it on the radio there are large amounts of people who will fall in love with it. Once you have created something and given it to the world it is no longer 100% the creators. It's just not. There's no two ways about it. When you allow someone else to develop an attachment to something (minor or large, emotional or whatever) that you have created you have entitled that person to be able to listen to it, watch it, or use it, whatever it is as often as they care too or need to. If the initial requirements were for that person to pay for it upfront so be it. If the wishes of this person were for you to only play with these works on a specific version of a game, then that is what they are. You don't need a law to tell you how not to be an A-hole. If you have the desire to bring that mod to a "new level" then "you" "need" to do the work and put that same care and effort into as the original creator did to both respect and honor it and not just "bootleg their CD" and give it out elsewhere... because when you do that you go from being a supporter who deserves you're own piece of what you fell in love with, regarding their work, to a hustler (which I know a great deal about in "real life" lol). A hustler who may not have only ruined this experience/passtime/hobby/passion/whatever that a mod author (person) once needed but you have potentially robbed them of their passion by tainting it with selfish actions. Who know's what creating these mods really allowed this person to get through in life. And if they are being a dick to others... have you heard how horrible people in comments can be and how annoying? I didn't create a video called "The (bad placed here word lol) Song" for nothing. Perhaps this experience has already been ruined for them and they only keep their mods up on nexus out of respect for some or with hopes of regaining the feeling that they once had for this community.

As I stated at the beginning of this long wall of text... "it comes down to this"... to be a decent human-being and to understand what it means to be one.

If anyone doesn't understand that (and the majority of what I have wrote) they have a lot to learn about this very short life that we are living. Not everyone who creates a mod views them as "trading cards".

Sure, modding is about having fun and sharing that fun with other people... TO YOU, that is what modding is =) ... and mostly to me = )... but that doesn't mean that our, my, or our thoughts and feelings allow us to take something that we didn't create and to do what we wish with it. Mods may be pass-times and ways to not be bored for some but for others they are life saving acts of creativity or monuments of personal growth.

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after typing this all out there was a comment that had been written in between and I liked what was said as it helped to define the point even further

Anonymous Poster: "All I’m saying is...I do not think Leonardo da Vinci has a right to say that no alterations of the Mona Lisa can be made. I think it is ethically acceptable for these to exist, even if the author does not want them to."

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Me: I like the Mono Lisa statement. You're right and people DO modify the Mono Lisa all of the time. However, they aren't allowed to simply paint over the original copy. They have to either recreate it from scratch and make adjustments as they go or use a photocopy of some sorts, but still, it's not the original version... not to mention that Leo has been long dead and his emotional attachments to his work are probably justifiably assumed to no longer be what they once were... however, we still do everything that we can to protect and honor the original... what a sexy lady she is lol

Goodnight.

jace14 wrote: if bumps are allowed in this forum, here is a bump

CaladanAnduril wrote: Str8 to the point ! Bravo !

boomerizer wrote: I second this bump.

And to further, it's not that I don't appreciate the modders that create the work.
I just don't hold any real care about the origin. Only that the mod that I see is available for use. I don't know many modders by name. Even for the mods that I absolutely love-- Skyrim ones, specifically. I know Azar but that is only because each mod ends with "by Azar". Beyond that. I don't know who made Falskaar. I don't know who made Forgotten City. I don't know who made Better Shaped Weapons. But I absolutely love these mods for Skyrim.

For Fallout 4, I use NCR Veteran Ranger Armor, Patriotic Shield and Commonwealth Cuts. I don't know the names of the modders. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate that they are available to me. Two of those three mods aren't available on Xbox though. And that makes me a sad panda.

That said, NCR Veteran Ranger armor WAS at one point available in a mod pack (Spawn Items) that allowed a user to spawn items from the game, as well as included others' mods, including NCR VRA. The author of Spawn Items did not credit the mod author of NCRVRA and to me, I can't really see why they are upset because once uploaded to the internet, you should want your work distributed. ( I mean does it really matter WHO downloads it? Just that someone is enjoying it?)

I mean, I don't know the name of the cook that makes my gourmet burgers at BT's or Five Guys or wherever I order my burgers from. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate the burger delivered to me by the waiter/waitress. We thank the waiter/waitress when the food is brought to us, but the person that actually MADE the burger goes thankless.

Think that makes any more sense? I mean, seems relevant to me..

arenthefox wrote: My eyes hurt from staring at this post, but I agree with everything. Of course, you said it a lot better and nicer than I'd ever be able to.

Kalell wrote: When someone creates a mod I like I always check to see what the username of the person is when I go back to endorse the file. I've made a few mods myself and I know how much time and effort goes into making them. Checking to see what the authors name is is the least I can do in return for them sharing their work, and it will help me recognize anything else they do in the future. I'm not sure why anyone wouldn't want to know the name of someone that worked really hard on something they liked and uploaded it for people to use for free.

boomerizer wrote: For the same reason I don't bother with the credits at the end of a TV Show, Movie, or Game.

PinkSamantha wrote: "When someone pours as much effort into their creative works as many mod authors do, taking their mod and uploading it elsewhere is like me taking anything that you have worked hard on, that you hold dear to yourself, and tossing it around in the mud like it's no big deal. ...Yes, that's exactly what it's like to some people and it's not your decision to say that they shouldn't feel how they do about it. As a human being you should respect their efforts and the fact that they made it public for anyone to use at all. More importantly, you should respect their feelings and your potential lack of understanding about them."

Couldn't say it better myself.

And, uh... Mono Lisa? As in, Non-Stereo Lisa? I hope it's just a typo.

But seriously, thank you very much for the opinion.

PinkSamantha wrote: edit: damn, double post. If Robin, Dante, SirSalami or any staff is around, would you mind to remove this post? Thank you very much and sorry for the trouble.

Kalell wrote: So you just don't care to know who the people are that make the entertainment you enjoy, so long as they are allowing you to use it? In the case of media that you pay for I understand that, but recognition is the only thing mod authors get.

PinkSamantha wrote: @Kalell
Just ignore him.
And thanks for the opinion. Completely agreed with you.

boomerizer wrote: Well, in the case of TV and Movies, its more or less "I don't know this person." Like, do I really need to know who the gaffer is?

I like paying attention to voice actors, in games. Thats about the extent of my attention to credits. I don't really look at coders, QA testers, artists etc. Nobody knows who they are, except them, and the people that they worked with. Your average consumer isn't going to know them, and isn't going to go Google searching the persons life story.

Doesn't mean they aren't appreciated in assisting in bringing us this entertainment. Sound quality wouldn't be very good if the gaffer didn't hold that stick up for hours at a time.

Likewise, with Mods, I presume my download and continued use of the mod would be appreciation enough.

GamerPoets wrote: Dolby 1.1

SjoertJansen wrote: Hey man, apologies for reading your comment so late. Very eloquently written and very true.

It's a nice piece that goes to the core of it without the, quite frankly, brainless flame throwing that is and has been going on in this comment section. I form strong opinions on these topics, as you know, but I generally keep quiet until the raving madness has subdued a little, because when I start I tend to ramble on for a long time.

For some reason people tend to lower themselves to a standard that goes below that of the "hustlers" discussed... It always puzzles me...

This community exists thanks to the creativity of many mod authors, but as I said before, the majority is a user, not creator, their role in this community is often underestimated. Still, one cannot deny that an ever growing fraction of the user base feels entitled beyond their, sometimes legal, rights.
It is hard to stop or prevent the theft of mods, even with active moderation in place it will be hard to tame, we shall see.

Whatever will become of console modding or modding in general, whether we think it good or bad...Or both. Change has come, and will continue. We can fight it, and gain nothing and loose a lot... Or we can adept and make our best efforts to turn it into something positive. The outcry of mad mobs may have delayed the inevitable coming of paid mods (thankfully), but we sure did pay a price ;), as always. This battle is no different...

-Joe

and honor bump, because i know others would want to know what GamerPoets said about this without going 8 pages into a 31 page comment section

MarchinBunny · June 22, 2016

In response to post #39498625. #39499265, #39499445, #39500430, #39500805, #39501145, #39503195, #39504680, #39505155, #39507590, #39511050 are all replies on the same post.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Fallout 3
Release Date - October 28, 2008
Geck (v 1.1) - December 11, 2008

December 2009 - Already four major quests mods
Cube Experimental
A Note Easily Mist
An Evening with Mister Manchester
A Quest for Heaven 1

==============================
Fallout 4
Release date - November 10, 2015
Creation Kit (Beta !!!) - April 26, 2016

Great quest mods ( so far)... none

That's say pretty much all about Beth.
In the light of the last events, don't expect to see the "heavy" modders and modding team showing up... they wont.
Already a lot from the Nexus community jumped on... modders throats, already the same scenario from the pay mods uproar from the past year is repeating again with almost the same comentrolls !

It's tragic ( but also somehow fun for me ) to see how the Nexus community is tearing appart from inside out again, with a little push from Beth.
It seems that a lot of people here don't understand a simple fact : THERE IS NO COMMUNITY!
Nexus was, is and it will be a DOWNLOAD hub, regular users DON'T care from where they download a mod, as long is free., no matter is a PC mod or a console mod.
The immense majority of the users from Nexus and world wide don't give a sht about IP, copyright or mod stealing, they only want to download for FREE a lot of mods also for FREE, maybe less than 1.5% really care about what is happening ( from 10 mil registered users!)

Here on Dark0ne post page ( !!! ) there a lot of comentrolls insulting moders ( Douchebags, morons, spoiled child's, how many mods have you uploaded than ME... sound familiar?). Have someone reported them to sanitise the air?...

This very noisy and violent group of comentrolls have shifted the discussion from console modding and IP protection to modders morale and intentions... again.

Don't expect soon the great modders, they won't return to this toxic environment.

Have a nice day !

cridus wrote: and where will they go? I mean, if they want to keep modding.
WiIIPWN4KFC wrote: @cridus That's just it, they don't need to share their mods.

"9. Mod authors make mods for themselves first, and you second. If the second part, you, becomes too much of a problem for them, they’ll simply not want to share them with you at all."
cridus wrote: mmh I'm pretty sure that those modders that make huge mods with side quests, many npcs, etc. don't do them for themselves. also because, since they made them, they aren't gonna enjoy them as much as other people would, since they already know absolutely everything about them.
metalguy7312 wrote: I am curious as to what the release dates are on those four major quest mods were compared to the CK release date..
I am no mod creator on that level but I would think that less than two months past a BETA release on the CK isn't much time to be releasing huge quest mods but I could be wrong.

*edit to add that I guess I disagree with the OP and that given time, they (large quest mods) will come
foster xbl wrote: Completely spot on. OP hit the nail directly on the head.
Cha0s_lord wrote: @cridus

I stopped modding after oblivion. Since then, I occasionally edit skyrim mods to fit my personal taste and I use the skills I had learned with blender to make 3D art. All that makes me perfectly happy.
At the same time, new modders come, learn the ropes, and eventually they will be the one making the "big" mods. Life goes on.
CaladanAnduril wrote: MetalGuy - Just look at the release dates of those mods on FO3 page... but maybe you are right, we must wait and hope, after all the hope is dying the last. :smile:
RaffTheSweetling wrote: Yeah OK thanks. I'm making a quest mod or 2. It takes time. Should I not sleep? not play with my daughter? Not help my pregnant wife? You wanna know something
I actually upload pics from my WIP all the time, and the absolute lack of support, endorsements (ahem), comments (except from a small number of ppl), is far more discouraging that the "toxic atmosphere" on some other damn website. I actually get around a half dozen endorsements usually. While a pic of some giant frigging boobs gets a ton. I delete my pics usually because I feel like the community doesn't care if people like me do this work or not. That's the truth. From someone who makes quest mods.
And as far as I'm concerned, my quest mods are great. File of the month great. So you really need some patience, and people here really need to show more support and focus on helping by endorsing and being enthusiastic about more than breasts and guns and bricking consoles, for a change.
CaladanAnduril wrote: Ok Raff

I TOTALLY agree with your statements... but boobs and nudes and guns will ALWAYS get more attention than quest mod, who need six months ( maybe a year or more) to be finished.
And sometimes is wayyyyy to difficult for some minds.

Have a nice day
arenthefox wrote: @Raffthesweetling Quest mods may not be the highest endorsed or most popular (let's be honest, sex sells and humans are, by-and-large, perverts), BUT, quest mods are awesome. They add more content and in a game like Fallout 4, I'm going to say I'm excited to see what you make, because even with all current DLC, I've ran out of quests to do and settlements to build. So I will wait, quietly but impatiently, for some quest mods :smile:
well, i don't agree with CaladanAnduril's points, although i think he comes really close to the crux of the matter but avoids it preferring rhetorical drama over having a coherent argument.

Yes, there is no community if you summarize what must be the 10m registered users of this site as a whole...yet, who in their right mind would consider such a hyperbole?
Yes, this topic is divisive merely because it attracts the trolls (who have been the ones to denigrate individual modders, obviously, for the very same reason)...yet here we stand in the nexus many years later with the mods for the most part being updated faithfully into something noone could have foreseen. And which isnt going to be ruined just because TESV is going to be ported.
Yes, this comment thread is rife with commentrolls, yet look at any facebook post by someone famous...censoring is hardly the answer in a democratic society especially when the aforementioned trolls have evolved beyond simple expletives and bigoted comments (although i see a few acronyms designed to fall under the radar; and apparently there's a lot of crap that was deleted that was unevolved trolling)
Yes, this site is a download hub, yet are we here simply because of that? I hardly think i'd be here if the interface was anything like steam's workshop. lol. gods, one glance and i was gone...you'd think the regular user would bother with mods?

In fact, ask yourself this: If nexus didn't exist and all we had was the steam workshop, do you think the modding community would have taken off as it has? So credit where credit is due: the 'community' you believe doesn't exist, exists even if you're not around to hear them fell trees in a forest.

Just because there happen to be some people in disagreement doesn't mean they are trolls. What is with people today and using that word wrongly?

Gasp, you don't entirely agree with me O.O? You must be one of them trolls I been hearin about in these here parts.

The reason things here are divisive is due to the fact of different cultures surrounding PC and console players and different views about copyright and how it's followed or lack of being followed today. Then of course you have issues with certain people and their attitudes, which also does not help.

But again, I would not consider any of these people trolls. Are their trolls, certainly! But again, the ones who disagree, does not automatically make them trolls.

MajorFreak · June 22, 2016

In response to post #39649215.

Brabbit1987 wrote:

In response to post #39498625. #39499265, #39499445, #39500430, #39500805, #39501145, #39503195, #39504680, #39505155, #39507590, #39511050 are all replies on the same post.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Fallout 3
Release Date - October 28, 2008
Geck (v 1.1) - December 11, 2008

December 2009 - Already four major quests mods
Cube Experimental
A Note Easily Mist
An Evening with Mister Manchester
A Quest for Heaven 1

==============================
Fallout 4
Release date - November 10, 2015
Creation Kit (Beta !!!) - April 26, 2016

Great quest mods ( so far)... none

That's say pretty much all about Beth.
In the light of the last events, don't expect to see the "heavy" modders and modding team showing up... they wont.
Already a lot from the Nexus community jumped on... modders throats, already the same scenario from the pay mods uproar from the past year is repeating again with almost the same comentrolls !

It's tragic ( but also somehow fun for me ) to see how the Nexus community is tearing appart from inside out again, with a little push from Beth.
It seems that a lot of people here don't understand a simple fact : THERE IS NO COMMUNITY!
Nexus was, is and it will be a DOWNLOAD hub, regular users DON'T care from where they download a mod, as long is free., no matter is a PC mod or a console mod.
The immense majority of the users from Nexus and world wide don't give a sht about IP, copyright or mod stealing, they only want to download for FREE a lot of mods also for FREE, maybe less than 1.5% really care about what is happening ( from 10 mil registered users!)

Here on Dark0ne post page ( !!! ) there a lot of comentrolls insulting moders ( Douchebags, morons, spoiled child's, how many mods have you uploaded than ME... sound familiar?). Have someone reported them to sanitise the air?...

This very noisy and violent group of comentrolls have shifted the discussion from console modding and IP protection to modders morale and intentions... again.

Don't expect soon the great modders, they won't return to this toxic environment.

Have a nice day !

cridus wrote: and where will they go? I mean, if they want to keep modding.
WiIIPWN4KFC wrote: @cridus That's just it, they don't need to share their mods.

"9. Mod authors make mods for themselves first, and you second. If the second part, you, becomes too much of a problem for them, they’ll simply not want to share them with you at all."
cridus wrote: mmh I'm pretty sure that those modders that make huge mods with side quests, many npcs, etc. don't do them for themselves. also because, since they made them, they aren't gonna enjoy them as much as other people would, since they already know absolutely everything about them.
metalguy7312 wrote: I am curious as to what the release dates are on those four major quest mods were compared to the CK release date..
I am no mod creator on that level but I would think that less than two months past a BETA release on the CK isn't much time to be releasing huge quest mods but I could be wrong.

*edit to add that I guess I disagree with the OP and that given time, they (large quest mods) will come
foster xbl wrote: Completely spot on. OP hit the nail directly on the head.
Cha0s_lord wrote: @cridus

I stopped modding after oblivion. Since then, I occasionally edit skyrim mods to fit my personal taste and I use the skills I had learned with blender to make 3D art. All that makes me perfectly happy.
At the same time, new modders come, learn the ropes, and eventually they will be the one making the "big" mods. Life goes on.
CaladanAnduril wrote: MetalGuy - Just look at the release dates of those mods on FO3 page... but maybe you are right, we must wait and hope, after all the hope is dying the last. :smile:
RaffTheSweetling wrote: Yeah OK thanks. I'm making a quest mod or 2. It takes time. Should I not sleep? not play with my daughter? Not help my pregnant wife? You wanna know something
I actually upload pics from my WIP all the time, and the absolute lack of support, endorsements (ahem), comments (except from a small number of ppl), is far more discouraging that the "toxic atmosphere" on some other damn website. I actually get around a half dozen endorsements usually. While a pic of some giant frigging boobs gets a ton. I delete my pics usually because I feel like the community doesn't care if people like me do this work or not. That's the truth. From someone who makes quest mods.
And as far as I'm concerned, my quest mods are great. File of the month great. So you really need some patience, and people here really need to show more support and focus on helping by endorsing and being enthusiastic about more than breasts and guns and bricking consoles, for a change.
CaladanAnduril wrote: Ok Raff

I TOTALLY agree with your statements... but boobs and nudes and guns will ALWAYS get more attention than quest mod, who need six months ( maybe a year or more) to be finished.
And sometimes is wayyyyy to difficult for some minds.

Have a nice day
arenthefox wrote: @Raffthesweetling Quest mods may not be the highest endorsed or most popular (let's be honest, sex sells and humans are, by-and-large, perverts), BUT, quest mods are awesome. They add more content and in a game like Fallout 4, I'm going to say I'm excited to see what you make, because even with all current DLC, I've ran out of quests to do and settlements to build. So I will wait, quietly but impatiently, for some quest mods :smile:
well, i don't agree with CaladanAnduril's points, although i think he comes really close to the crux of the matter but avoids it preferring rhetorical drama over having a coherent argument.

Yes, there is no community if you summarize what must be the 10m registered users of this site as a whole...yet, who in their right mind would consider such a hyperbole?
Yes, this topic is divisive merely because it attracts the trolls (who have been the ones to denigrate individual modders, obviously, for the very same reason)...yet here we stand in the nexus many years later with the mods for the most part being updated faithfully into something noone could have foreseen. And which isnt going to be ruined just because TESV is going to be ported.
Yes, this comment thread is rife with commentrolls, yet look at any facebook post by someone famous...censoring is hardly the answer in a democratic society especially when the aforementioned trolls have evolved beyond simple expletives and bigoted comments (although i see a few acronyms designed to fall under the radar; and apparently there's a lot of crap that was deleted that was unevolved trolling)
Yes, this site is a download hub, yet are we here simply because of that? I hardly think i'd be here if the interface was anything like steam's workshop. lol. gods, one glance and i was gone...you'd think the regular user would bother with mods?

In fact, ask yourself this: If nexus didn't exist and all we had was the steam workshop, do you think the modding community would have taken off as it has? So credit where credit is due: the 'community' you believe doesn't exist, exists even if you're not around to hear them fell trees in a forest.

Just because there happen to be some people in disagreement doesn't mean they are trolls. What is with people today and using that word wrongly?

Gasp, you don't entirely agree with me O.O? You must be one of them trolls I been hearin about in these here parts.

The reason things here are divisive is due to the fact of different cultures surrounding PC and console players and different views about copyright and how it's followed or lack of being followed today. Then of course you have issues with certain people and their attitudes, which also does not help.

But again, I would not consider any of these people trolls. Are their trolls, certainly! But again, the ones who disagree, does not automatically make them trolls.

ah the irony.

MarchinBunny · June 22, 2016

In response to post #39649215.

Brabbit1987 wrote:

In response to post #39498625. #39499265, #39499445, #39500430, #39500805, #39501145, #39503195, #39504680, #39505155, #39507590, #39511050 are all replies on the same post.

CaladanAnduril wrote: Fallout 3
Release Date - October 28, 2008
Geck (v 1.1) - December 11, 2008

December 2009 - Already four major quests mods
Cube Experimental
A Note Easily Mist
An Evening with Mister Manchester
A Quest for Heaven 1

==============================
Fallout 4
Release date - November 10, 2015
Creation Kit (Beta !!!) - April 26, 2016

Great quest mods ( so far)... none

That's say pretty much all about Beth.
In the light of the last events, don't expect to see the "heavy" modders and modding team showing up... they wont.
Already a lot from the Nexus community jumped on... modders throats, already the same scenario from the pay mods uproar from the past year is repeating again with almost the same comentrolls !

It's tragic ( but also somehow fun for me ) to see how the Nexus community is tearing appart from inside out again, with a little push from Beth.
It seems that a lot of people here don't understand a simple fact : THERE IS NO COMMUNITY!
Nexus was, is and it will be a DOWNLOAD hub, regular users DON'T care from where they download a mod, as long is free., no matter is a PC mod or a console mod.
The immense majority of the users from Nexus and world wide don't give a sht about IP, copyright or mod stealing, they only want to download for FREE a lot of mods also for FREE, maybe less than 1.5% really care about what is happening ( from 10 mil registered users!)

Here on Dark0ne post page ( !!! ) there a lot of comentrolls insulting moders ( Douchebags, morons, spoiled child's, how many mods have you uploaded than ME... sound familiar?). Have someone reported them to sanitise the air?...

This very noisy and violent group of comentrolls have shifted the discussion from console modding and IP protection to modders morale and intentions... again.

Don't expect soon the great modders, they won't return to this toxic environment.

Have a nice day !

cridus wrote: and where will they go? I mean, if they want to keep modding.
WiIIPWN4KFC wrote: @cridus That's just it, they don't need to share their mods.

"9. Mod authors make mods for themselves first, and you second. If the second part, you, becomes too much of a problem for them, they’ll simply not want to share them with you at all."
cridus wrote: mmh I'm pretty sure that those modders that make huge mods with side quests, many npcs, etc. don't do them for themselves. also because, since they made them, they aren't gonna enjoy them as much as other people would, since they already know absolutely everything about them.
metalguy7312 wrote: I am curious as to what the release dates are on those four major quest mods were compared to the CK release date..
I am no mod creator on that level but I would think that less than two months past a BETA release on the CK isn't much time to be releasing huge quest mods but I could be wrong.

*edit to add that I guess I disagree with the OP and that given time, they (large quest mods) will come
foster xbl wrote: Completely spot on. OP hit the nail directly on the head.
Cha0s_lord wrote: @cridus

I stopped modding after oblivion. Since then, I occasionally edit skyrim mods to fit my personal taste and I use the skills I had learned with blender to make 3D art. All that makes me perfectly happy.
At the same time, new modders come, learn the ropes, and eventually they will be the one making the "big" mods. Life goes on.
CaladanAnduril wrote: MetalGuy - Just look at the release dates of those mods on FO3 page... but maybe you are right, we must wait and hope, after all the hope is dying the last. :smile:
RaffTheSweetling wrote: Yeah OK thanks. I'm making a quest mod or 2. It takes time. Should I not sleep? not play with my daughter? Not help my pregnant wife? You wanna know something
I actually upload pics from my WIP all the time, and the absolute lack of support, endorsements (ahem), comments (except from a small number of ppl), is far more discouraging that the "toxic atmosphere" on some other damn website. I actually get around a half dozen endorsements usually. While a pic of some giant frigging boobs gets a ton. I delete my pics usually because I feel like the community doesn't care if people like me do this work or not. That's the truth. From someone who makes quest mods.
And as far as I'm concerned, my quest mods are great. File of the month great. So you really need some patience, and people here really need to show more support and focus on helping by endorsing and being enthusiastic about more than breasts and guns and bricking consoles, for a change.
CaladanAnduril wrote: Ok Raff

I TOTALLY agree with your statements... but boobs and nudes and guns will ALWAYS get more attention than quest mod, who need six months ( maybe a year or more) to be finished.
And sometimes is wayyyyy to difficult for some minds.

Have a nice day
arenthefox wrote: @Raffthesweetling Quest mods may not be the highest endorsed or most popular (let's be honest, sex sells and humans are, by-and-large, perverts), BUT, quest mods are awesome. They add more content and in a game like Fallout 4, I'm going to say I'm excited to see what you make, because even with all current DLC, I've ran out of quests to do and settlements to build. So I will wait, quietly but impatiently, for some quest mods :smile:
well, i don't agree with CaladanAnduril's points, although i think he comes really close to the crux of the matter but avoids it preferring rhetorical drama over having a coherent argument.

Yes, there is no community if you summarize what must be the 10m registered users of this site as a whole...yet, who in their right mind would consider such a hyperbole?
Yes, this topic is divisive merely because it attracts the trolls (who have been the ones to denigrate individual modders, obviously, for the very same reason)...yet here we stand in the nexus many years later with the mods for the most part being updated faithfully into something noone could have foreseen. And which isnt going to be ruined just because TESV is going to be ported.
Yes, this comment thread is rife with commentrolls, yet look at any facebook post by someone famous...censoring is hardly the answer in a democratic society especially when the aforementioned trolls have evolved beyond simple expletives and bigoted comments (although i see a few acronyms designed to fall under the radar; and apparently there's a lot of crap that was deleted that was unevolved trolling)
Yes, this site is a download hub, yet are we here simply because of that? I hardly think i'd be here if the interface was anything like steam's workshop. lol. gods, one glance and i was gone...you'd think the regular user would bother with mods?

In fact, ask yourself this: If nexus didn't exist and all we had was the steam workshop, do you think the modding community would have taken off as it has? So credit where credit is due: the 'community' you believe doesn't exist, exists even if you're not around to hear them fell trees in a forest.

Just because there happen to be some people in disagreement doesn't mean they are trolls. What is with people today and using that word wrongly?

Gasp, you don't entirely agree with me O.O? You must be one of them trolls I been hearin about in these here parts.

The reason things here are divisive is due to the fact of different cultures surrounding PC and console players and different views about copyright and how it's followed or lack of being followed today. Then of course you have issues with certain people and their attitudes, which also does not help.

But again, I would not consider any of these people trolls. Are their trolls, certainly! But again, the ones who disagree, does not automatically make them trolls.
ah the irony.

What irony? There doesn't seem to be any irony, unless you're talking about something not related directly with my post.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Brabbit1987

H3llbAne · June 22, 2016

In response to post #39625375. #39626800, #39629355, #39629415 are all replies on the same post.

lm2f wrote: You have to remember it's the PC modders who are doing the stealing. You would need a PC with the creation kit to be able to download mods and re-upload them on beth.net. Leave console players out of this.

dobmc wrote: Guys I have PC. That automatically makes me a PC modder.

ayy lmao

phantompally76 wrote: If you create a mod on the PC, it most certainly does.

MajorFreak wrote: lol. who said anyting about creating a mod? you mean to say stealing is creating? lol

Considering that an increasing number people/households have a desktop or laptop I can't say you're right. How can you be a PC modder if you don't create the mods on PC, let alone play the games on it? Point is anyone can hop onto a computer, download a mod, and reupload it to the Bethesda site. That doesn't make them a PC modder. So yes, it is the console players.....but a very small portion of them.

H3llbAne · June 22, 2016

In response to post #39610370. #39611030, #39622600, #39625550, #39629360, #39629840, #39630255, #39632075, #39632415, #39632810, #39633715, #39634365, #39634975, #39635050, #39635260, #39636200, #39636935 are all replies on the same post.

dobmc wrote: With all this "set-up" you would think Bethesda is planning to bring paid mods to consoles.

Haha I'm just joking guys. Of course even Bethesda isn't desperate to sink that low.

Wait a minute.

midtek wrote: A side note:

I think that's not something morally sunken, or only comes from the desperate which cannot be accepted from the society. Hines made valid points about paid mod in his interviews. While some may disagree, or claim it is from greed, it still stands as a valid option. The question might be how much it will be a benefit and who benefits from it? Plus, if they don't do that in excellency, better not start from the beginning; that might be the thing everyone agrees.

dobmc wrote: Either way I don't think anyone is willing to let the modding community change, especially not when a company like Bethesda comes back after 14 years of hiatus and suddenly decides to be a boss of what's good for the community.

midtek wrote: yeah, I agree. It feels awkward when they just show up claiming that they have been through all these years with you, wanting to share 'the fruit of collaboration' with you when at the same time mods are getting stolen to the net. It's not like an evil company. They could try to build better relationship.

MajorFreak wrote: i think the question alot of us have, especially those like me who don't remember the era of skyrim paid mods, is: why did Bethesda take down that paid mod option and did they give a coherent reason for such that we know they've at least got a chance of remembering what the problem was and hopefully that means they've got a solution in mind (unless, of course, whoever took down the site was fired and the new guys have no clue)

phantompally76 wrote: Bethesda only changed their minds because Valve backed out. And Valve only backed out because they weren't equipped to deal with half a million angry neckbeards portraying themselves as ten million angry neckbeards.

This time around, Valve is not part of the equation, so there's no way Bethesda will back down this time. They've been putting up with us for 2 decades, and they know how to handle us. And they'll find a way to monetize amateur modding whether we like it or not.

MajorFreak wrote: dude, you really ought to stop speculating wildly. Both valve and bethesda have spoken in the past, and neither of their articles on the subject speak of anything but a joint decision.

http://www.bethblog.com/2015/04/27/why-were-trying-paid-skyrim-mods-on-steam/
and
https://steamcommunity.com/games/SteamWorkshop/announcements/detail/208632365253244218

and from what little i've read of past comments, yours were the ones needing moderation

phantompally76 wrote: It's not speculation, son.

it's common sense. And I'm sorry you can't see the forest for the trees.

dobmc wrote: @MajorFreak
I remember reading somewhere from Valve that paid mods ended up being more of a loss than profit so that could be it. A word from Bethesda? Dunno lol. Considering how the profits were split (Bethesda received 45%) my only impression was damage-control.

Oh, nevermind. Looks like you got the info yourself.

MajorFreak wrote: thanks, mate. do you remember anything more that Bethesda might have said about why they thought 'curating' was a bad idea and if they had any idea on how to do things differently (other than, what i'm starting to assume, is a complete lack of anything)

dobmc wrote: Nope. Pretty much the articles you linked are what Bethesda said about the whole ordeal.

MajorFreak wrote: damn. okay, well, do you know what Dark0ne means by "curating"? i'll take your impression of what it means, if you know. i'll do some digging myself cause i'm curious as to why Bethesda hated that option (assuming that if they hated the idea, without needing to explain it on their blog for us, then i figure i would hate it too)

"It had to be open, not curated like the current models. At every step along the way with mods, we have had many opportunities to step in and control things, and decided not to. We wanted to let our players decide what is good, bad, right, and wrong. We will not pass judgment on what they do."

alright, so 'curated like the current models'...which current models? no game has EVER been modded so much. period. let's ignore that and focus on the question: what were they referring to?

Kalell wrote: Paid mods are both good and bad. The good is that mod authors would get something back from their hard work. The bad is that all the people that don't make enough to buy more than one game a year and have depended on mods for entertainment would have to find another hobby.

Having to pay for mods would barely effect those that have extra money at the end of the month. It's those that don't that would be hurt by this. And let's be honest, the industry doesn't care about people that barely have enough money to buy their games. It's a business and the people that have extra money to spend are the ones they're after. I honestly hate the idea of paid mods, but from a business perspective they'ed be negligent to not at least try and make it work, even if it does reek of greed.

dobmc wrote: @MajorFreak
The only thing that I can think of is what Bethesda was saying about how paid mods would theoretically "increase" the quality of mods. That or how you are able to choose how much "more" you're able to pay for the mods.

Besides that I have no idea. That's actually a good question.

MajorFreak wrote: @ Kalell: absolutely. i'm a minimum wage worker who has a rig that is pretty bare bones (no 4k textures for me) and i work hard to stay poor. I once, for a year, had a middle class career and OMG i was even able to donate to charities each month (and do tonnes of other stuff)

I think i bought unzip license and a few other keys during that time. In my mind, if i still had that career, i would be definitely hitting the donate key (especially for FNIS among others) more often than not after i endorsed the mod like i'm able to currently.

dobmc wrote: @Kalell
It's more than just "poor people having to find a different hobby". Mods aren't just made by a single person. You learn how to mod by reading tutorials written by similar mod authors, and alot of the essential mods require SKSE or FNIS. All are free as long as you don't be an ass and exploit the good-will of other mod authors.

Once paid mods becomes a necessity, expect people to become greedy. No more help, no more sharing, the once innocent community that was all about passion and good-will will be replaced by an hostile environment controlled by the greed for money.

Sounds like a wonderful idea doesn't it?

Edit:
Me too lol

Kalell wrote: That is true, especially with the dev kits, script extenders, and the engine itself, but the other tools people use to make mods are also used for other things. The majority of what I've learned about the tools I use I didn't learn from tutorials specific to Bethesda's games. If you need to learn something it's usually out there somewhere, you just have to know where to look. People not sharing will definitely make the info harder to find though.

Edit: And I do agree with you, it would ruin the community. I am in no way in support of paid mods. If they start charging for mods I will move on from Bethesda's games before the lack of sharing even becomes an issue. lol

The main problem with the paid mods deal for Skyrim was how the earnings were split, and how the mods were *cough* weren't *cough* policed. If the mod authors had received a bigger slice of the pie, and the system moderated, I doubt the backlash would have been as severe. I've heard the "I have over [insert number here] mods" rant before and I don't buy it.(No pun intended) It has some validity, but not much. Most people probably wouldn't use the system. I say probably because I just don't know. And I think that's what scares people on the subject. It's an unknown and people are scared all mod makers will start charging......I don't think it will happen simply due to how modding communities have worked for all these years.

I'd like to see it back in a way. When you think about the possible size and quality of the mods that could emerge with such a system......it's a very tempting idea. It would also give an incentive for mod makers to devote more of their time towards modding. It would also give people reason to get into many of the things needed to make mods. Scripting, coding, art design, acting, the list goes on. And they'd be able to do it without being tied to a game studio......which is another thing I hear as an argument.

Personally, if it did come back I would definitely give mod making some serious thought. Why not make a living doing what you love to do after all. Would certainly beat the hell out of my factory job.

MarchinBunny · June 22, 2016

In response to post #39610370. #39611030, #39622600, #39625550, #39629360, #39629840, #39630255, #39632075, #39632415, #39632810, #39633715, #39634365, #39634975, #39635050, #39635260, #39636200, #39636935 are all replies on the same post.

dobmc wrote: With all this "set-up" you would think Bethesda is planning to bring paid mods to consoles.

Haha I'm just joking guys. Of course even Bethesda isn't desperate to sink that low.

Wait a minute.
midtek wrote: A side note:

I think that's not something morally sunken, or only comes from the desperate which cannot be accepted from the society. Hines made valid points about paid mod in his interviews. While some may disagree, or claim it is from greed, it still stands as a valid option. The question might be how much it will be a benefit and who benefits from it? Plus, if they don't do that in excellency, better not start from the beginning; that might be the thing everyone agrees.
dobmc wrote: Either way I don't think anyone is willing to let the modding community change, especially not when a company like Bethesda comes back after 14 years of hiatus and suddenly decides to be a boss of what's good for the community.
midtek wrote: yeah, I agree. It feels awkward when they just show up claiming that they have been through all these years with you, wanting to share 'the fruit of collaboration' with you when at the same time mods are getting stolen to the net. It's not like an evil company. They could try to build better relationship.
MajorFreak wrote: i think the question a lot of us have, especially those like me who don't remember the era of skyrim paid mods, is: why did Bethesda take down that paid mod option and did they give a coherent reason for such that we know they've at least got a chance of remembering what the problem was and hopefully that means they've got a solution in mind (unless, of course, whoever took down the site was fired and the new guys have no clue)
phantompally76 wrote: Bethesda only changed their minds because Valve backed out. And Valve only backed out because they weren't equipped to deal with half a million angry neckbeards portraying themselves as ten million angry neckbeards.

This time around, Valve is not part of the equation, so there's no way Bethesda will back down this time. They've been putting up with us for 2 decades, and they know how to handle us. And they'll find a way to monetize amateur modding whether we like it or not.
MajorFreak wrote: dude, you really ought to stop speculating wildly. Both valve and bethesda have spoken in the past, and neither of their articles on the subject speak of anything but a joint decision.

http://www.bethblog.com/2015/04/27/why-were-trying-paid-skyrim-mods-on-steam/
and
https://steamcommunity.com/games/SteamWorkshop/announcements/detail/208632365253244218

and from what little i've read of past comments, yours were the ones needing moderation
phantompally76 wrote: It's not speculation, son.

it's common sense. And I'm sorry you can't see the forest for the trees.
dobmc wrote: @MajorFreak
I remember reading somewhere from Valve that paid mods ended up being more of a loss than profit so that could be it. A word from Bethesda? Dunno lol. Considering how the profits were split (Bethesda received 45%) my only impression was damage-control.

Oh, nevermind. Looks like you got the info yourself.
MajorFreak wrote: thanks, mate. do you remember anything more that Bethesda might have said about why they thought 'curating' was a bad idea and if they had any idea on how to do things differently (other than, what i'm starting to assume, is a complete lack of anything)
dobmc wrote: Nope. Pretty much the articles you linked are what Bethesda said about the whole ordeal.
MajorFreak wrote: damn. okay, well, do you know what Dark0ne means by "curating"? i'll take your impression of what it means, if you know. i'll do some digging myself cause i'm curious as to why Bethesda hated that option (assuming that if they hated the idea, without needing to explain it on their blog for us, then i figure i would hate it too)

"It had to be open, not curated like the current models. At every step along the way with mods, we have had many opportunities to step in and control things, and decided not to. We wanted to let our players decide what is good, bad, right, and wrong. We will not pass judgment on what they do."

alright, so 'curated like the current models'...which current models? no game has EVER been modded so much. period. let's ignore that and focus on the question: what were they referring to?
Kalell wrote: Paid mods are both good and bad. The good is that mod authors would get something back from their hard work. The bad is that all the people that don't make enough to buy more than one game a year and have depended on mods for entertainment would have to find another hobby.

Having to pay for mods would barely effect those that have extra money at the end of the month. It's those that don't that would be hurt by this. And let's be honest, the industry doesn't care about people that barely have enough money to buy their games. It's a business and the people that have extra money to spend are the ones they're after. I honestly hate the idea of paid mods, but from a business perspective they'ed be negligent to not at least try and make it work, even if it does reek of greed.
dobmc wrote: @MajorFreak
The only thing that I can think of is what Bethesda was saying about how paid mods would theoretically "increase" the quality of mods. That or how you are able to choose how much "more" you're able to pay for the mods.

Besides that I have no idea. That's actually a good question.
MajorFreak wrote: @ Kalell: absolutely. i'm a minimum wage worker who has a rig that is pretty bare bones (no 4k textures for me) and i work hard to stay poor. I once, for a year, had a middle class career and OMG i was even able to donate to charities each month (and do tonnes of other stuff)

I think i bought unzip license and a few other keys during that time. In my mind, if i still had that career, i would be definitely hitting the donate key (especially for FNIS among others) more often than not after i endorsed the mod like i'm able to currently.
dobmc wrote: @Kalell
It's more than just "poor people having to find a different hobby". Mods aren't just made by a single person. You learn how to mod by reading tutorials written by similar mod authors, and a lot of the essential mods require SKSE or FNIS. All are free as long as you don't be an ass and exploit the good-will of other mod authors.

Once paid mods becomes a necessity, expect people to become greedy. No more help, no more sharing, the once innocent community that was all about passion and good-will will be replaced by an hostile environment controlled by the greed for money.

Sounds like a wonderful idea doesn't it?

Edit:
Me too lol
Kalell wrote: That is true, especially with the dev kits, script extenders, and the engine itself, but the other tools people use to make mods are also used for other things. The majority of what I've learned about the tools I use I didn't learn from tutorials specific to Bethesda's games. If you need to learn something it's usually out there somewhere, you just have to know where to look. People not sharing will definitely make the info harder to find though.

Edit: And I do agree with you, it would ruin the community. I am in no way in support of paid mods. If they start charging for mods I will move on from Bethesda's games before the lack of sharing even becomes an issue. lol
The main problem with the paid mods deal for Skyrim was how the earnings were split, and how the mods were *cough* weren't *cough* policed. If the mod authors had received a bigger slice of the pie, and the system moderated, I doubt the backlash would have been as severe. I've heard the "I have over [insert number here] mods" rant before and I don't buy it.(No pun intended) It has some validity, but not much. Most people probably wouldn't use the system. I say probably because I just don't know. And I think that's what scares people on the subject. It's an unknown and people are scared all mod makers will start charging......I don't think it will happen simply due to how modding communities have worked for all these years.

I'd like to see it back in a way. When you think about the possible size and quality of the mods that could emerge with such a system......it's a very tempting idea. It would also give an incentive for mod makers to devote more of their time towards modding. It would also give people reason to get into many of the things needed to make mods. Scripting, coding, art design, acting, the list goes on. And they'd be able to do it without being tied to a game studio......which is another thing I hear as an argument.

Personally, if it did come back I would definitely give mod making some serious thought. Why not make a living doing what you love to do after all. Would certainly beat the hell out of my factory job.

Actually, we already have an example of paid mods that exists. Minecraft allows it and some mod makers sell their mods. However ... you typically never hear about them because their popularity is non existent. I am sure the mod developers do earn money that way, but I doubt most people would be willing to buy mods.

The reason this is the case is because ... there is no try before you can buy with paid mods. Yet, typically when I mod a game, I often try and remove mods frequently. If many mod makers did use such a pay system, it would literally mean having to buy a mod you may not even end up liking. quality can be a real big issue when it comes to mods.

Something can sound really cool, and then while using the mod, it just doesn't work well.

I don't think paid mods will get very far even if it's tried again and it sticks. Mod makers may give it a try, but when they see they are making hardly anything and their mods popularity just tanks if it even ever becomes popular at all, they will likely release their mods for free in the future. However, there will also be the cost that it will harm their reputation with some people.

I personally, don't think it's worth the aggravation it would bring.

Edit: Also mod makers can do what they love for a job, it's called being a game developer. They could even create their own games as a side while doing mods. They would get a lot of attention too from Gopher probably as he has already spot lighted a couple games being made by mod developers.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Brabbit1987

On console mods, theft and Bethesda.net

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