On console mods, theft and Bethesda.net

[Deleted3507349User]

The most absolutely hilarious thing about people posting Patreon links on BethesdaBay is that Bethesda THEMSELVES have prohibited sites like the Nexus here from allowing mod authors to prohibit Patreon accounts.

[MarchinBunny]

 

In response to post #39684490. #39686550, #39687780, #39688170, #39688440, #39688495 are all replies on the same post.

 

 

 

phantompally76 wrote: I don't have much more to add to this.....whatever it is. I just want to ask a question, and follow it up with a comparison. I'll begin of course by reminding everyone that I vehemently oppose mod piracy in any form, because idiots here like to gloss over that and act like I'm their enemy simply because I don't see eye to eye with the hypocrisy of this tirade against console pirates and Bethesda.

 

What is stopping console mod thieves from saying "I am simply preserving this mod before it disappears from the Nexus/Steam, because it would be a shame to lose all these mods".? Is that considered a weak and invalid argument for mod piracy in the eyes of this community?

 

Because that is precisely what the Nexus is currently doing with mods off Filefront/Gamefront. Due credit is not always being given to the original authors of those mods, and authors' permission to upload them in the first place is definitely not being secured. You can't try to label piracy as "preservation" with one hand, and then lash out at overt piracy (which at the very least doesn't try to mask itself as something else) with the other.

 

And the only difference...the ONLY difference between those examples is that one of them generates potential website hits and ad revenue for the Nexus, and the other does not. Regardless, it is unequivocally hypocritical of this community to condemn one and praise the other.

popcorn71 wrote: I would say that the difference between what the nexus is doing with the Filefront mods and what the mod thieves are doing is that Filefront is dead and the nexus is not. A mod will not "disappears" off the nexus unless the mod author actively hides it, making it abundantly clear that the mod author does in fact want the mod to be inaccessible. If a mod website is dead then the mod authors have by definition already moved on and are uninterested/unable in maintaining (or removing) their mod.

 

It really just boils down to mod authors having the final say in how their work is distributed unless they have abandoned the mod entirely.

 

Still, I would hope that the nexus is respecting the wises of the authors who's mod are being converted and not converting over any files they have not been granted permission to convert.

AnyOldName3 wrote: Based on my (albeit limited) understanding of copyright law, the Nexus would have had to buy out FileFront's licences to distribute the files (which would potentially have been dirt cheap as they'd gone bust already) if they were to rehost them without manually contacting every single mod author about every single file. If that's what happened, as far as the original author is concerned, the Nexus is now FileFront, so nothing's changed except a URL, and it's possible that, depending on how it's done, they may have the same ability to control the files as they did before.

 

This is based on conjecture, but if it's right, then it explains how the situations are different, and if it's wrong, then I don't know enough about this to participate in this discussion, and can safely be ignored. :smile:

phantompally76 wrote: Nexus could be gone tomorrow as well. The perceived permanency of the repository does not change the definition of piracy.

 

The point is, as you stated yourself, it boils down to the wishes of the mod authors having the final say. Many of the authors on Filefront don't even know their mods have been uploaded here, and they are definitely not having their say. And as far as I'm concerned, "We'll remove mods if the authors ask us to" is not a valid defense against the moral and ethical dilemma this hypocrisy entails.

 

Frankly, it's absolutely no different than stealing merchandise from someone's home while they're away on vacation, and then agreeing to return said merchandise only after they have been caught and charged, then claiming they were doing the homeowners a favor by saving it from a fire that has yet to happen. That is still theft, and redistributing files without the expressed permission of the mod authors BEFOREHAND is still piracy.

 

Blindly assuming that mods on Filefront have been abandoned just because they were on Filefront is naïve and troubling. If mod authors want their work to be preserved, by and large they will make sure that happens themselves. They don't need a self-appointed trustee to come along, decide those authors have abandoned their mods without any sort of systematic and quantifiable criteria, and redistribute their mods without the least consideration for the authors' wishes, and without securing their permission beforehand. That is mod theft and piracy, and it is no different than what the trolls are doing on Bethesda.net.

 

We're going to have to come to terms with this, sooner rather than later. If we're so worried about piracy and modders' rights, we need to practice what we preach.

Ethreon wrote: Filefront doesn't exist anymore. It was done with their accord. It's like leaving your house for vacation only to come find it gone (if Nexus didn't save the files), or intact and ready to use (current situation where files are saved). I see 0 hypocrisy here, but plenty of short sight from you.

phantompally76 wrote: That's a good point, and I'm sure all the legalities have been ironed out. But just because it's legal doesn't make it right. I think we all know that.

 

There is plenty of historical precedent for piracy sanctioned by the law. They call it privateering. But it's still piracy, and it's still hypocritical to condemn piracy while actively engaging in it yourselves, whether it's legal or not.

...I think releasing a few mods you self might help you understand why people are so upset at this. I have spent literally thousands of hours working on mods over the last 10 years and it has defiantly given me a different perspective on things.

 

Lets assume that your augment about mod preservation is valid for a moment. If the was nexus suddenly shut down, I really wouldn't mind if some third party reupload all my old Oblivion mods or even my Skyrim mods so long as they A) respected the terms put foreword in the mod permission and description and B) if I ever asked them to remove the files they respected my wishes.

 

On the other hand, if some jerk just came along and reupload one of my mods WITHOUT RESPECTED THE TERMS CLEARLY PUT FOREWORD IN THE MOD PERMISSION AND DESCRIPTION and than refused to take the mod down, and then re-reupload it after it was forcibly taken down, and all for no other reason then because they were impatient or didn't like THE TERMS CLEARLY PUT FOREWORD IN THE MOD PERMISSION AND DESCRIPTION or even to preserve the mod in the highly unlikely event that the Nexus goes belly up, I would be EXTREMELY PISSED.

 

There really is no comparison between the filefront situation and what these thieves are doing, and to claim there is, that is an extremely weak argument.

 

I don't really think being a mod developer will change everyone's perspective. I was a mod developer and it certainly didn't change mine.

 

Also, filefront has a ton of files, you can't just assume every single mod developer would be fine with it. They may already own backups. Many people on filefront may have only liked their files on filefront and no where else. There are many mod developers here, who also wouldn't like their mods just randomly taken and put on a different service simply because nexus vanished.

 

If they wanted it, they probably do it themselves. Right?

 

Personally, I don't care where my work gets uploaded and wouldn't mind such a scenario myself, but others certainly might. So it is a bit hypocritical in way.

 

I do admit the similarities end as soon as the person denies to take it down when asked. Fairly certain if a mod developer asked, nexus would comply fairly quickly.

 

However, I would like to point out, some mod developers do get pissed off or overreact, which actually may cause a negative reaction on the other end as well. If you don't approach things calmly, you may piss the other side off, even though they may have respected your wishes.

[popcorn71]

In response to post #39690230.

Brabbit1987 wrote:

 

In response to post #39684490. #39686550, #39687780, #39688170, #39688440, #39688495 are all replies on the same post.

phantompally76 wrote: I don't have much more to add to this.....whatever it is. I just want to ask a question, and follow it up with a comparison. I'll begin of course by reminding everyone that I vehemently oppose mod piracy in any form, because idiots here like to gloss over that and act like I'm their enemy simply because I don't see eye to eye with the hypocrisy of this tirade against console pirates and Bethesda.

What is stopping console mod thieves from saying "I am simply preserving this mod before it disappears from the Nexus/Steam, because it would be a shame to lose all these mods".? Is that considered a weak and invalid argument for mod piracy in the eyes of this community?

Because that is precisely what the Nexus is currently doing with mods off Filefront/Gamefront. Due credit is not always being given to the original authors of those mods, and authors' permission to upload them in the first place is definitely not being secured. You can't try to label piracy as "preservation" with one hand, and then lash out at overt piracy (which at the very least doesn't try to mask itself as something else) with the other.

And the only difference...the ONLY difference between those examples is that one of them generates potential website hits and ad revenue for the Nexus, and the other does not. Regardless, it is unequivocally hypocritical of this community to condemn one and praise the other.

popcorn71 wrote: I would say that the difference between what the nexus is doing with the Filefront mods and what the mod thieves are doing is that Filefront is dead and the nexus is not. A mod will not "disappears" off the nexus unless the mod author actively hides it, making it abundantly clear that the mod author does in fact want the mod to be inaccessible. If a mod website is dead then the mod authors have by definition already moved on and are uninterested/unable in maintaining (or removing) their mod.

It really just boils down to mod authors having the final say in how their work is distributed unless they have abandoned the mod entirely.

Still, I would hope that the nexus is respecting the wises of the authors who's mod are being converted and not converting over any files they have not been granted permission to convert.

AnyOldName3 wrote: Based on my (albeit limited) understanding of copyright law, the Nexus would have had to buy out FileFront's licences to distribute the files (which would potentially have been dirt cheap as they'd gone bust already) if they were to rehost them without manually contacting every single mod author about every single file. If that's what happened, as far as the original author is concerned, the Nexus is now FileFront, so nothing's changed except a URL, and it's possible that, depending on how it's done, they may have the same ability to control the files as they did before.

This is based on conjecture, but if it's right, then it explains how the situations are different, and if it's wrong, then I don't know enough about this to participate in this discussion, and can safely be ignored. :smile:

phantompally76 wrote: Nexus could be gone tomorrow as well. The perceived permanency of the repository does not change the definition of piracy.

The point is, as you stated yourself, it boils down to the wishes of the mod authors having the final say. Many of the authors on Filefront don't even know their mods have been uploaded here, and they are definitely not having their say. And as far as I'm concerned, "We'll remove mods if the authors ask us to" is not a valid defense against the moral and ethical dilemma this hypocrisy entails.

Frankly, it's absolutely no different than stealing merchandise from someone's home while they're away on vacation, and then agreeing to return said merchandise only after they have been caught and charged, then claiming they were doing the homeowners a favor by saving it from a fire that has yet to happen. That is still theft, and redistributing files without the expressed permission of the mod authors BEFOREHAND is still piracy.

Blindly assuming that mods on Filefront have been abandoned just because they were on Filefront is naïve and troubling. If mod authors want their work to be preserved, by and large they will make sure that happens themselves. They don't need a self-appointed trustee to come along, decide those authors have abandoned their mods without any sort of systematic and quantifiable criteria, and redistribute their mods without the least consideration for the authors' wishes, and without securing their permission beforehand. That is mod theft and piracy, and it is no different than what the trolls are doing on Bethesda.net.

We're going to have to come to terms with this, sooner rather than later. If we're so worried about piracy and modders' rights, we need to practice what we preach.

Ethreon wrote: Filefront doesn't exist anymore. It was done with their accord. It's like leaving your house for vacation only to come find it gone (if Nexus didn't save the files), or intact and ready to use (current situation where files are saved). I see 0 hypocrisy here, but plenty of short sight from you.

phantompally76 wrote: That's a good point, and I'm sure all the legalities have been ironed out. But just because it's legal doesn't make it right. I think we all know that.

There is plenty of historical precedent for piracy sanctioned by the law. They call it privateering. But it's still piracy, and it's still hypocritical to condemn piracy while actively engaging in it yourselves, whether it's legal or not.

...I think releasing a few mods you self might help you understand why people are so upset at this. I have spent literally thousands of hours working on mods over the last 10 years and it has defiantly given me a different perspective on things.

Lets assume that your augment about mod preservation is valid for a moment. If the was nexus suddenly shut down, I really wouldn't mind if some third party reupload all my old Oblivion mods or even my Skyrim mods so long as they A) respected the terms put foreword in the mod permission and description and B) if I ever asked them to remove the files they respected my wishes.

On the other hand, if some jerk just came along and reupload one of my mods WITHOUT RESPECTED THE TERMS CLEARLY PUT FOREWORD IN THE MOD PERMISSION AND DESCRIPTION and than refused to take the mod down, and then re-reupload it after it was forcibly taken down, and all for no other reason then because they were impatient or didn't like THE TERMS CLEARLY PUT FOREWORD IN THE MOD PERMISSION AND DESCRIPTION or even to preserve the mod in the highly unlikely event that the Nexus goes belly up, I would be EXTREMELY PISSED.

There really is no comparison between the filefront situation and what these thieves are doing, and to claim there is, that is an extremely weak argument.

 

I don't really think being a mod developer will change everyone's perspective. I was a mod developer and it certainly didn't change mine.

Also, filefront has a ton of files, you can't just assume every single mod developer would be fine with it. They may already own backups. Many people on filefront may have only liked their files on filefront and no where else. There are many mod developers here, who also wouldn't like their mods just randomly taken and put on a different service simply because nexus vanished.

If they wanted it, they probably do it themselves. Right?

Personally, I don't care where my work gets uploaded and wouldn't mind such a scenario myself, but others certainly might. So it is a bit hypocritical in way.

I do admit the similarities end as soon as the person denies to take it down when asked. Fairly certain if a mod developer asked, nexus would comply fairly quickly.

However, I would like to point out, some mod developers do get pissed off or overreact, which actually may cause a negative reaction on the other end as well. If you don't approach things calmly, you may piss the other side off, even though they may have respected your wishes.

I defiantly agree that some mod developers get way to over zealous with their claims of mod theft (trying to claim they own a mod concept as well as its content) and its not some thing I condone. In fact I go out of my way to simply not used mod made by people who do this just to avoid the drama.

The point I was trying to make was that many of the stolen mods put up on Bethnet have been forcibly taken down by the mods and than simply reuploaded again by the same people! We all know that that kind of behavior would lead to an IP ban here on the nexus fairly quickly.

And as you said in the case of the nexus uploading content form filefront, if a mod developer asked, nexus would comply fairly quickly. You just cant compare archiving files so they aren't permanently lost with some uploading your work just so they can have it NOW rather then wait for you to upload it when its ready. Edited June 23, 2016 by popcorn71

[birchconnor834]

Let me first say that I absolutely love the nexus and all it provides for new vegas, fallout 3 and skyrim on my pc but in regards to fallout 4 and all Bethesda games I would have to ask you a question-if Bethesda hadn't released it creation kits and access to game content where would the nexus community be? Answer: NOWHERE every aspect of modding the game comes from the game which BETHESDA CREATED what pc players need to understand is that the time of mods on the pc exclusively is over and the nexus obviously doesn't like this and its understandable because they are afraid they will lose one of there communities and eventually one of the most mod uploaded game for there site all in all pc users including me have to understand that all aspects of the game belong to Bethesda even if you don't agree with it and most importantly stop crying over "stolen mods" unless you trademarked,copyrighted or whatever else way you can claim ownership with they don't belong to you the belong to everyone in the fallout community which should have been every modders first intention when they uploaded there mod to a mod sharing website if you don't want people to "steal it" don't release it, keep it to yourselves, stop crying, and realize nothing is ever yours if you publicly release it

 

much regards to the nexus and everyone who is apart of it

[phantompally76]

In response to post #39684490. #39686550, #39687780, #39688170, #39688440, #39688495, #39689940 are all replies on the same post.

phantompally76 wrote: I don't have much more to add to this.....whatever it is. I just want to ask a question, and follow it up with a comparison. I'll begin of course by reminding everyone that I vehemently oppose mod piracy in any form, because idiots here like to gloss over that and act like I'm their enemy simply because I don't see eye to eye with the hypocrisy of this tirade against console pirates and Bethesda.

What is stopping console mod thieves from saying "I am simply preserving this mod before it disappears from the Nexus/Steam, because it would be a shame to lose all these mods".? Is that considered a weak and invalid argument for mod piracy in the eyes of this community?

Because that is precisely what the Nexus is currently doing with mods off Filefront/Gamefront. Due credit is not always being given to the original authors of those mods, and authors' permission to upload them in the first place is definitely not being secured. You can't try to label piracy as "preservation" with one hand, and then lash out at overt piracy (which at the very least doesn't try to mask itself as something else) with the other.

And the only difference...the ONLY difference between those examples is that one of them generates potential website hits and ad revenue for the Nexus, and the other does not. Regardless, it is unequivocally hypocritical of this community to condemn one and praise the other.

popcorn71 wrote: I would say that the difference between what the nexus is doing with the Filefront mods and what the mod thieves are doing is that Filefront is dead and the nexus is not. A mod will not "disappears" off the nexus unless the mod author actively hides it, making it abundantly clear that the mod author does in fact want the mod to be inaccessible. If a mod website is dead then the mod authors have by definition already moved on and are uninterested/unable in maintaining (or removing) their mod.

It really just boils down to mod authors having the final say in how their work is distributed unless they have abandoned the mod entirely.

Still, I would hope that the nexus is respecting the wises of the authors who's mod are being converted and not converting over any files they have not been granted permission to convert.

AnyOldName3 wrote: Based on my (albeit limited) understanding of copyright law, the Nexus would have had to buy out FileFront's licences to distribute the files (which would potentially have been dirt cheap as they'd gone bust already) if they were to rehost them without manually contacting every single mod author about every single file. If that's what happened, as far as the original author is concerned, the Nexus is now FileFront, so nothing's changed except a URL, and it's possible that, depending on how it's done, they may have the same ability to control the files as they did before.

This is based on conjecture, but if it's right, then it explains how the situations are different, and if it's wrong, then I don't know enough about this to participate in this discussion, and can safely be ignored. :)

phantompally76 wrote: Nexus could be gone tomorrow as well. The perceived permanency of the repository does not change the definition of piracy.

The point is, as you stated yourself, it boils down to the wishes of the mod authors having the final say. Many of the authors on Filefront don't even know their mods have been uploaded here, and they are definitely not having their say. And as far as I'm concerned, "We'll remove mods if the authors ask us to" is not a valid defense against the moral and ethical dilemma this hypocrisy entails.

Frankly, it's absolutely no different than stealing merchandise from someone's home while they're away on vacation, and then agreeing to return said merchandise only after they have been caught and charged, then claiming they were doing the homeowners a favor by saving it from a fire that has yet to happen. That is still theft, and redistributing files without the expressed permission of the mod authors BEFOREHAND is still piracy.

Blindly assuming that mods on Filefront have been abandoned just because they were on Filefront is naïve and troubling. If mod authors want their work to be preserved, by and large they will make sure that happens themselves. They don't need a self-appointed trustee to come along, decide those authors have abandoned their mods without any sort of systematic and quantifiable criteria, and redistribute their mods without the least consideration for the authors' wishes, and without securing their permission beforehand. That is mod theft and piracy, and it is no different than what the trolls are doing on Bethesda.net.

We're going to have to come to terms with this, sooner rather than later. If we're so worried about piracy and modders' rights, we need to practice what we preach.

Ethreon wrote: Filefront doesn't exist anymore. It was done with their accord. It's like leaving your house for vacation only to come find it gone (if Nexus didn't save the files), or intact and ready to use (current situation where files are saved). I see 0 hypocrisy here, but plenty of short sight from you.

phantompally76 wrote: That's a good point, and I'm sure all the legalities have been ironed out. But just because it's legal doesn't make it right. I think we all know that.

There is plenty of historical precedent for piracy sanctioned by the law. They call it privateering. But it's still piracy, and it's still hypocritical to condemn piracy while actively engaging in it yourselves, whether it's legal or not.

popcorn71 wrote: ...I think releasing a few mods your self might help you understand why people are so upset at this. I have spent literally thousands of hours working on mods over the last 10 years and it has defiantly given me a different perspective on things.

Lets assume that your augment about mod preservation is valid for a moment. If the was nexus suddenly shut down, I really wouldn't mind if some third party reupload all my old Oblivion mods or even my Skyrim mods so long as they A) respected the terms put foreword in the mod permission and description and B) if I ever asked them to remove the files they respected my wishes.

On the other hand, if some jerk just came along and reupload one of my mods WITHOUT RESPECTED THE TERMS CLEARLY PUT FOREWORD IN THE MOD PERMISSION AND DESCRIPTION and than refused to take the mod down, and then re-reupload it after it was forcibly taken down, and all for no other reason then because they were impatient or didn't like THE TERMS CLEARLY PUT FOREWORD IN THE MOD PERMISSION AND DESCRIPTION or even to preserve the mod in the highly unlikely event that the Nexus goes belly up, I would be EXTREMELY PISSED.

There really is no comparison between the filefront situation and what these thieves are doing, and to claim there is, that is an extremely weak argument.

Uploading a mod to a 3rd party site without the expressed permission of the original author is piracy.

The comparison is exact, regardless of intentions or legalities.

Piracy is piracy. There can be no double standard without implications.

[popcorn71]

In response to post #39684490. #39686550, #39687780, #39688170, #39688440, #39688495, #39689940, #39691500 are all replies on the same post.

phantompally76 wrote: I don't have much more to add to this.....whatever it is. I just want to ask a question, and follow it up with a comparison. I'll begin of course by reminding everyone that I vehemently oppose mod piracy in any form, because idiots here like to gloss over that and act like I'm their enemy simply because I don't see eye to eye with the hypocrisy of this tirade against console pirates and Bethesda.

What is stopping console mod thieves from saying "I am simply preserving this mod before it disappears from the Nexus/Steam, because it would be a shame to lose all these mods".? Is that considered a weak and invalid argument for mod piracy in the eyes of this community?

Because that is precisely what the Nexus is currently doing with mods off Filefront/Gamefront. Due credit is not always being given to the original authors of those mods, and authors' permission to upload them in the first place is definitely not being secured. You can't try to label piracy as "preservation" with one hand, and then lash out at overt piracy (which at the very least doesn't try to mask itself as something else) with the other.

And the only difference...the ONLY difference between those examples is that one of them generates potential website hits and ad revenue for the Nexus, and the other does not. Regardless, it is unequivocally hypocritical of this community to condemn one and praise the other.

popcorn71 wrote: I would say that the difference between what the nexus is doing with the Filefront mods and what the mod thieves are doing is that Filefront is dead and the nexus is not. A mod will not "disappears" off the nexus unless the mod author actively hides it, making it abundantly clear that the mod author does in fact want the mod to be inaccessible. If a mod website is dead then the mod authors have by definition already moved on and are uninterested/unable in maintaining (or removing) their mod.

It really just boils down to mod authors having the final say in how their work is distributed unless they have abandoned the mod entirely.

Still, I would hope that the nexus is respecting the wises of the authors who's mod are being converted and not converting over any files they have not been granted permission to convert.

AnyOldName3 wrote: Based on my (albeit limited) understanding of copyright law, the Nexus would have had to buy out FileFront's licences to distribute the files (which would potentially have been dirt cheap as they'd gone bust already) if they were to rehost them without manually contacting every single mod author about every single file. If that's what happened, as far as the original author is concerned, the Nexus is now FileFront, so nothing's changed except a URL, and it's possible that, depending on how it's done, they may have the same ability to control the files as they did before.

This is based on conjecture, but if it's right, then it explains how the situations are different, and if it's wrong, then I don't know enough about this to participate in this discussion, and can safely be ignored. :)

phantompally76 wrote: Nexus could be gone tomorrow as well. The perceived permanency of the repository does not change the definition of piracy.

The point is, as you stated yourself, it boils down to the wishes of the mod authors having the final say. Many of the authors on Filefront don't even know their mods have been uploaded here, and they are definitely not having their say. And as far as I'm concerned, "We'll remove mods if the authors ask us to" is not a valid defense against the moral and ethical dilemma this hypocrisy entails.

Frankly, it's absolutely no different than stealing merchandise from someone's home while they're away on vacation, and then agreeing to return said merchandise only after they have been caught and charged, then claiming they were doing the homeowners a favor by saving it from a fire that has yet to happen. That is still theft, and redistributing files without the expressed permission of the mod authors BEFOREHAND is still piracy.

Blindly assuming that mods on Filefront have been abandoned just because they were on Filefront is naïve and troubling. If mod authors want their work to be preserved, by and large they will make sure that happens themselves. They don't need a self-appointed trustee to come along, decide those authors have abandoned their mods without any sort of systematic and quantifiable criteria, and redistribute their mods without the least consideration for the authors' wishes, and without securing their permission beforehand. That is mod theft and piracy, and it is no different than what the trolls are doing on Bethesda.net.

We're going to have to come to terms with this, sooner rather than later. If we're so worried about piracy and modders' rights, we need to practice what we preach.

Ethreon wrote: Filefront doesn't exist anymore. It was done with their accord. It's like leaving your house for vacation only to come find it gone (if Nexus didn't save the files), or intact and ready to use (current situation where files are saved). I see 0 hypocrisy here, but plenty of short sight from you.

phantompally76 wrote: That's a good point, and I'm sure all the legalities have been ironed out. But just because it's legal doesn't make it right. I think we all know that.

There is plenty of historical precedent for piracy sanctioned by the law. They call it privateering. But it's still piracy, and it's still hypocritical to condemn piracy while actively engaging in it yourselves, whether it's legal or not.

popcorn71 wrote: ...I think releasing a few mods your self might help you understand why people are so upset at this. I have spent literally thousands of hours working on mods over the last 10 years and it has defiantly given me a different perspective on things.

Lets assume that your augment about mod preservation is valid for a moment. If the was nexus suddenly shut down, I really wouldn't mind if some third party reupload all my old Oblivion mods or even my Skyrim mods so long as they A) respected the terms put foreword in the mod permission and description and B) if I ever asked them to remove the files they respected my wishes.

On the other hand, if some jerk just came along and reupload one of my mods WITHOUT RESPECTED THE TERMS CLEARLY PUT FOREWORD IN THE MOD PERMISSION AND DESCRIPTION and than refused to take the mod down, and then re-reupload it after it was forcibly taken down, and all for no other reason then because they were impatient or didn't like THE TERMS CLEARLY PUT FOREWORD IN THE MOD PERMISSION AND DESCRIPTION or even to preserve the mod in the highly unlikely event that the Nexus goes belly up, I would be EXTREMELY PISSED.

There really is no comparison between the filefront situation and what these thieves are doing, and to claim there is, that is an extremely weak argument.

phantompally76 wrote: Uploading a mod to a 3rd party site without the expressed permission of the original author is piracy.

The comparison is exact, regardless of intentions or legalities.

Piracy is piracy. There can be no double standard without implications.

my caps lock was not malfunction. all that stuff in all caps was important. go back and reread.

[phantompally76]

In response to post #39690230. #39690750 is also a reply to the same post.

Brabbit1987 wrote:

 

In response to post #39684490. #39686550, #39687780, #39688170, #39688440, #39688495 are all replies on the same post.

phantompally76 wrote: I don't have much more to add to this.....whatever it is. I just want to ask a question, and follow it up with a comparison. I'll begin of course by reminding everyone that I vehemently oppose mod piracy in any form, because idiots here like to gloss over that and act like I'm their enemy simply because I don't see eye to eye with the hypocrisy of this tirade against console pirates and Bethesda.

What is stopping console mod thieves from saying "I am simply preserving this mod before it disappears from the Nexus/Steam, because it would be a shame to lose all these mods".? Is that considered a weak and invalid argument for mod piracy in the eyes of this community?

Because that is precisely what the Nexus is currently doing with mods off Filefront/Gamefront. Due credit is not always being given to the original authors of those mods, and authors' permission to upload them in the first place is definitely not being secured. You can't try to label piracy as "preservation" with one hand, and then lash out at overt piracy (which at the very least doesn't try to mask itself as something else) with the other.

And the only difference...the ONLY difference between those examples is that one of them generates potential website hits and ad revenue for the Nexus, and the other does not. Regardless, it is unequivocally hypocritical of this community to condemn one and praise the other.

popcorn71 wrote: I would say that the difference between what the nexus is doing with the Filefront mods and what the mod thieves are doing is that Filefront is dead and the nexus is not. A mod will not "disappears" off the nexus unless the mod author actively hides it, making it abundantly clear that the mod author does in fact want the mod to be inaccessible. If a mod website is dead then the mod authors have by definition already moved on and are uninterested/unable in maintaining (or removing) their mod.

It really just boils down to mod authors having the final say in how their work is distributed unless they have abandoned the mod entirely.

Still, I would hope that the nexus is respecting the wises of the authors who's mod are being converted and not converting over any files they have not been granted permission to convert.

AnyOldName3 wrote: Based on my (albeit limited) understanding of copyright law, the Nexus would have had to buy out FileFront's licences to distribute the files (which would potentially have been dirt cheap as they'd gone bust already) if they were to rehost them without manually contacting every single mod author about every single file. If that's what happened, as far as the original author is concerned, the Nexus is now FileFront, so nothing's changed except a URL, and it's possible that, depending on how it's done, they may have the same ability to control the files as they did before.

This is based on conjecture, but if it's right, then it explains how the situations are different, and if it's wrong, then I don't know enough about this to participate in this discussion, and can safely be ignored. :smile:

phantompally76 wrote: Nexus could be gone tomorrow as well. The perceived permanency of the repository does not change the definition of piracy.

The point is, as you stated yourself, it boils down to the wishes of the mod authors having the final say. Many of the authors on Filefront don't even know their mods have been uploaded here, and they are definitely not having their say. And as far as I'm concerned, "We'll remove mods if the authors ask us to" is not a valid defense against the moral and ethical dilemma this hypocrisy entails.

Frankly, it's absolutely no different than stealing merchandise from someone's home while they're away on vacation, and then agreeing to return said merchandise only after they have been caught and charged, then claiming they were doing the homeowners a favor by saving it from a fire that has yet to happen. That is still theft, and redistributing files without the expressed permission of the mod authors BEFOREHAND is still piracy.

Blindly assuming that mods on Filefront have been abandoned just because they were on Filefront is naïve and troubling. If mod authors want their work to be preserved, by and large they will make sure that happens themselves. They don't need a self-appointed trustee to come along, decide those authors have abandoned their mods without any sort of systematic and quantifiable criteria, and redistribute their mods without the least consideration for the authors' wishes, and without securing their permission beforehand. That is mod theft and piracy, and it is no different than what the trolls are doing on Bethesda.net.

We're going to have to come to terms with this, sooner rather than later. If we're so worried about piracy and modders' rights, we need to practice what we preach.

Ethreon wrote: Filefront doesn't exist anymore. It was done with their accord. It's like leaving your house for vacation only to come find it gone (if Nexus didn't save the files), or intact and ready to use (current situation where files are saved). I see 0 hypocrisy here, but plenty of short sight from you.

phantompally76 wrote: That's a good point, and I'm sure all the legalities have been ironed out. But just because it's legal doesn't make it right. I think we all know that.

There is plenty of historical precedent for piracy sanctioned by the law. They call it privateering. But it's still piracy, and it's still hypocritical to condemn piracy while actively engaging in it yourselves, whether it's legal or not.

...I think releasing a few mods you self might help you understand why people are so upset at this. I have spent literally thousands of hours working on mods over the last 10 years and it has defiantly given me a different perspective on things.

Lets assume that your augment about mod preservation is valid for a moment. If the was nexus suddenly shut down, I really wouldn't mind if some third party reupload all my old Oblivion mods or even my Skyrim mods so long as they A) respected the terms put foreword in the mod permission and description and B) if I ever asked them to remove the files they respected my wishes.

On the other hand, if some jerk just came along and reupload one of my mods WITHOUT RESPECTED THE TERMS CLEARLY PUT FOREWORD IN THE MOD PERMISSION AND DESCRIPTION and than refused to take the mod down, and then re-reupload it after it was forcibly taken down, and all for no other reason then because they were impatient or didn't like THE TERMS CLEARLY PUT FOREWORD IN THE MOD PERMISSION AND DESCRIPTION or even to preserve the mod in the highly unlikely event that the Nexus goes belly up, I would be EXTREMELY PISSED.

There really is no comparison between the filefront situation and what these thieves are doing, and to claim there is, that is an extremely weak argument.

 

I don't really think being a mod developer will change everyone's perspective. I was a mod developer and it certainly didn't change mine.

Also, filefront has a ton of files, you can't just assume every single mod developer would be fine with it. They may already own backups. Many people on filefront may have only liked their files on filefront and no where else. There are many mod developers here, who also wouldn't like their mods just randomly taken and put on a different service simply because nexus vanished.

If they wanted it, they probably do it themselves. Right?

Personally, I don't care where my work gets uploaded and wouldn't mind such a scenario myself, but others certainly might. So it is a bit hypocritical in way.

I do admit the similarities end as soon as the person denies to take it down when asked. Fairly certain if a mod developer asked, nexus would comply fairly quickly.

However, I would like to point out, some mod developers do get pissed off or overreact, which actually may cause a negative reaction on the other end as well. If you don't approach things calmly, you may piss the other side off, even though they may have respected your wishes.

popcorn71 wrote: I defiantly agree that some mod developers get way to over zealous with their claims of mod theft (trying to claim they own a mod concept as well as its content) and its not some thing I condone. In fact I go out of my way to simply not used mod made by people who do this just to avoid the drama.

The point I was trying to make was that many of the stolen mods put up on Bethnet have been forcibly taken down by the mods and than simply reuploaded again by the same people! We all know that that kind of behavior would lead to an IP ban here on the nexus fairly quickly.

And as you said in the case of the nexus uploading content form filefront, if a mod developer asked, nexus would comply fairly quickly. You just cant compare archiving files so they aren't permanently lost with some uploading your work just so they can have it NOW rather then wait for you to upload it when its ready.

You most certainly can, because in both cases it's being done without permission from the authors.

It doesn't matter whether the motivation is to troll the community or to preserve data, and it is fundamentally hypocritical to try to separate the two based on intent. Now, if we're going to debate the definition of piracy, then ok, that's a discussion that needs to happen anyway, and I'm all for it. But we simply cannot continue to turn a blind eye to the hypocrisy of the current definition when it pertains to ourselves, no matter how pure our intentions and motivations may be. And based upon the current language outlined by this very website, uploading Filefront mods without securing the expressed permission of the original authors is unequivocal and unrepentant mod piracy.

And if we're going to subvert the definition here, then that subversion is going to have to apply to console mods as well. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Edited June 23, 2016 by phantompally76

[Pronema]

In response to post #39691045.

birchconnor834 wrote: Let me first say that I absolutely love the nexus and all it provides for new vegas, fallout 3 and skyrim on my pc but in regards to fallout 4 and all Bethesda games I would have to ask you a question-if Bethesda hadn't released it creation kits and access to game content where would the nexus community be? Answer: NOWHERE every aspect of modding the game comes from the game which BETHESDA CREATED what pc players need to understand is that the time of mods on the pc exclusively is over and the nexus obviously doesn't like this and its understandable because they are afraid they will lose one of there communities and eventually one of the most mod uploaded game for there site all in all pc users including me have to understand that all aspects of the game belong to Bethesda even if you don't agree with it and most importantly stop crying over "stolen mods" unless you trademarked,copyrighted or whatever else way you can claim ownership with they don't belong to you the belong to everyone in the fallout community which should have been every modders first intention when they uploaded there mod to a mod sharing website if you don't want people to "steal it" don't release it, keep it to yourselves, stop crying, and realize nothing is ever yours if you publicly release it

much regards to the nexus and everyone who is apart of it

Same can be said about you, with me and your mum. Seriously though. Unless somebody knocked up your mum you wouldn't exist. If your mum was a terrible person that abandoned you after you were born do you really owe her that much for getting knocked up?

Do you belong to me if I was your dad?

Are you supposed to hide in the woods for your entire life so that I guy claiming to be your dad doesn't kidnap you and claim you belong to him? (In case you didn't notice, I made out mod pirates and other content pirates to be pedophiles. Are you stealing and redistributing underage software? :O You pedo you!)

As rude as this post may be I hope I impress upon those who read it that stealing someone's work is not okay. Software or otherwise. And for god's sake, the mods being stolen are already free! You can't even argue about how it's too expensive and you steal them because you can't afford to pay for them, I mean really your argument is complete garbage.

As for trademark/copyright everything on the nexus as well as beth.net already falls under a creative commons licence, ala they are at the point of distribution already filed and legally documented, so you don't seem to understand much about copyright and trademark law and probably shouldn't be making the assumption that legal recourse can't be taken by someone who has uploaded mods here or for that matter any other site. Edited June 23, 2016 by Pronema

[phantompally76]

In response to post #39684490. #39686550, #39687780, #39688170, #39688440, #39688495, #39689940, #39691500, #39692070 are all replies on the same post.

phantompally76 wrote: I don't have much more to add to this.....whatever it is. I just want to ask a question, and follow it up with a comparison. I'll begin of course by reminding everyone that I vehemently oppose mod piracy in any form, because idiots here like to gloss over that and act like I'm their enemy simply because I don't see eye to eye with the hypocrisy of this tirade against console pirates and Bethesda.

What is stopping console mod thieves from saying "I am simply preserving this mod before it disappears from the Nexus/Steam, because it would be a shame to lose all these mods".? Is that considered a weak and invalid argument for mod piracy in the eyes of this community?

Because that is precisely what the Nexus is currently doing with mods off Filefront/Gamefront. Due credit is not always being given to the original authors of those mods, and authors' permission to upload them in the first place is definitely not being secured. You can't try to label piracy as "preservation" with one hand, and then lash out at overt piracy (which at the very least doesn't try to mask itself as something else) with the other.

And the only difference...the ONLY difference between those examples is that one of them generates potential website hits and ad revenue for the Nexus, and the other does not. Regardless, it is unequivocally hypocritical of this community to condemn one and praise the other.

popcorn71 wrote: I would say that the difference between what the nexus is doing with the Filefront mods and what the mod thieves are doing is that Filefront is dead and the nexus is not. A mod will not "disappears" off the nexus unless the mod author actively hides it, making it abundantly clear that the mod author does in fact want the mod to be inaccessible. If a mod website is dead then the mod authors have by definition already moved on and are uninterested/unable in maintaining (or removing) their mod.

It really just boils down to mod authors having the final say in how their work is distributed unless they have abandoned the mod entirely.

Still, I would hope that the nexus is respecting the wises of the authors who's mod are being converted and not converting over any files they have not been granted permission to convert.

AnyOldName3 wrote: Based on my (albeit limited) understanding of copyright law, the Nexus would have had to buy out FileFront's licences to distribute the files (which would potentially have been dirt cheap as they'd gone bust already) if they were to rehost them without manually contacting every single mod author about every single file. If that's what happened, as far as the original author is concerned, the Nexus is now FileFront, so nothing's changed except a URL, and it's possible that, depending on how it's done, they may have the same ability to control the files as they did before.

This is based on conjecture, but if it's right, then it explains how the situations are different, and if it's wrong, then I don't know enough about this to participate in this discussion, and can safely be ignored. :)

phantompally76 wrote: Nexus could be gone tomorrow as well. The perceived permanency of the repository does not change the definition of piracy.

The point is, as you stated yourself, it boils down to the wishes of the mod authors having the final say. Many of the authors on Filefront don't even know their mods have been uploaded here, and they are definitely not having their say. And as far as I'm concerned, "We'll remove mods if the authors ask us to" is not a valid defense against the moral and ethical dilemma this hypocrisy entails.

Frankly, it's absolutely no different than stealing merchandise from someone's home while they're away on vacation, and then agreeing to return said merchandise only after they have been caught and charged, then claiming they were doing the homeowners a favor by saving it from a fire that has yet to happen. That is still theft, and redistributing files without the expressed permission of the mod authors BEFOREHAND is still piracy.

Blindly assuming that mods on Filefront have been abandoned just because they were on Filefront is naïve and troubling. If mod authors want their work to be preserved, by and large they will make sure that happens themselves. They don't need a self-appointed trustee to come along, decide those authors have abandoned their mods without any sort of systematic and quantifiable criteria, and redistribute their mods without the least consideration for the authors' wishes, and without securing their permission beforehand. That is mod theft and piracy, and it is no different than what the trolls are doing on Bethesda.net.

We're going to have to come to terms with this, sooner rather than later. If we're so worried about piracy and modders' rights, we need to practice what we preach.

Ethreon wrote: Filefront doesn't exist anymore. It was done with their accord. It's like leaving your house for vacation only to come find it gone (if Nexus didn't save the files), or intact and ready to use (current situation where files are saved). I see 0 hypocrisy here, but plenty of short sight from you.

phantompally76 wrote: That's a good point, and I'm sure all the legalities have been ironed out. But just because it's legal doesn't make it right. I think we all know that.

There is plenty of historical precedent for piracy sanctioned by the law. They call it privateering. But it's still piracy, and it's still hypocritical to condemn piracy while actively engaging in it yourselves, whether it's legal or not.

popcorn71 wrote: ...I think releasing a few mods your self might help you understand why people are so upset at this. I have spent literally thousands of hours working on mods over the last 10 years and it has defiantly given me a different perspective on things.

Lets assume that your augment about mod preservation is valid for a moment. If the was nexus suddenly shut down, I really wouldn't mind if some third party reupload all my old Oblivion mods or even my Skyrim mods so long as they A) respected the terms put foreword in the mod permission and description and B) if I ever asked them to remove the files they respected my wishes.

On the other hand, if some jerk just came along and reupload one of my mods WITHOUT RESPECTED THE TERMS CLEARLY PUT FOREWORD IN THE MOD PERMISSION AND DESCRIPTION and than refused to take the mod down, and then re-reupload it after it was forcibly taken down, and all for no other reason then because they were impatient or didn't like THE TERMS CLEARLY PUT FOREWORD IN THE MOD PERMISSION AND DESCRIPTION or even to preserve the mod in the highly unlikely event that the Nexus goes belly up, I would be EXTREMELY PISSED.

There really is no comparison between the filefront situation and what these thieves are doing, and to claim there is, that is an extremely weak argument.

phantompally76 wrote: Uploading a mod to a 3rd party site without the expressed permission of the original author is piracy.

The comparison is exact, regardless of intentions or legalities.

Piracy is piracy. There can be no double standard without implications.

popcorn71 wrote: my caps lock was not malfunction. all that stuff in all caps was important. go back and reread.

Sir, none of that is being regarded or observed. Stuff is just being uploaded. Much of it being categorized under the wrong game entirely (example: Almost everything under Lord of the Rings Online is actually Battle For Middle Earth 2 mods...a completely different and incompatible game, meaning several BFME2 mod authors would never know their mods were on here even if they went looking for them). No one is reading those Filefront/Gamefront descriptions when they're being uploaded. If it's not a bot program doing it (as I suspect), at most it's a hasty copy and paste hack job, and based off the sizable amount of misclassifications, the mandate seems to be "upload now, fix later".......does that rhetoric sound familiar?

At any rate, my point here is not to say "I'm right, and you're wrong". I THINK we're both on the same side of the issue on the moral implications of mod piracy. My point is that we (the site and by extension the community) are saying "I won't let them get away with this", but we are doing the exact same thing and are trying to justify it by saying it's for the greater good. It is still piracy, and we can't condemn the act yet promote it at the same time simply because it is beneficial for us to do so. It's got to be one or the other. Edited June 23, 2016 by phantompally76

[Pronema]

Honestly, you need to write an article detailing how content creation is protected under Creative Commons and other licences so some people can get it through their thick skulls that free to download doesn't equal free to redistribute. And those who do are breaking the law and can face legal issues for doing so.