On console mods, theft and Bethesda.net

[feltrockni]

In response to post #39684490. #39686550, #39687780, #39688170, #39688440, #39688495, #39689940, #39691500, #39692070, #39692475 are all replies on the same post.

phantompally76 wrote: I don't have much more to add to this.....whatever it is. I just want to ask a question, and follow it up with a comparison. I'll begin of course by reminding everyone that I vehemently oppose mod piracy in any form, because idiots here like to gloss over that and act like I'm their enemy simply because I don't see eye to eye with the hypocrisy of this tirade against console pirates and Bethesda.

What is stopping console mod thieves from saying "I am simply preserving this mod before it disappears from the Nexus/Steam, because it would be a shame to lose all these mods".? Is that considered a weak and invalid argument for mod piracy in the eyes of this community?

Because that is precisely what the Nexus is currently doing with mods off Filefront/Gamefront. Due credit is not always being given to the original authors of those mods, and authors' permission to upload them in the first place is definitely not being secured. You can't try to label piracy as "preservation" with one hand, and then lash out at overt piracy (which at the very least doesn't try to mask itself as something else) with the other.

And the only difference...the ONLY difference between those examples is that one of them generates potential website hits and ad revenue for the Nexus, and the other does not. Regardless, it is unequivocally hypocritical of this community to condemn one and praise the other.

popcorn71 wrote: I would say that the difference between what the nexus is doing with the Filefront mods and what the mod thieves are doing is that Filefront is dead and the nexus is not. A mod will not "disappears" off the nexus unless the mod author actively hides it, making it abundantly clear that the mod author does in fact want the mod to be inaccessible. If a mod website is dead then the mod authors have by definition already moved on and are uninterested/unable in maintaining (or removing) their mod.

It really just boils down to mod authors having the final say in how their work is distributed unless they have abandoned the mod entirely.

Still, I would hope that the nexus is respecting the wises of the authors who's mod are being converted and not converting over any files they have not been granted permission to convert.

AnyOldName3 wrote: Based on my (albeit limited) understanding of copyright law, the Nexus would have had to buy out FileFront's licences to distribute the files (which would potentially have been dirt cheap as they'd gone bust already) if they were to rehost them without manually contacting every single mod author about every single file. If that's what happened, as far as the original author is concerned, the Nexus is now FileFront, so nothing's changed except a URL, and it's possible that, depending on how it's done, they may have the same ability to control the files as they did before.

This is based on conjecture, but if it's right, then it explains how the situations are different, and if it's wrong, then I don't know enough about this to participate in this discussion, and can safely be ignored. :)

phantompally76 wrote: Nexus could be gone tomorrow as well. The perceived permanency of the repository does not change the definition of piracy.

The point is, as you stated yourself, it boils down to the wishes of the mod authors having the final say. Many of the authors on Filefront don't even know their mods have been uploaded here, and they are definitely not having their say. And as far as I'm concerned, "We'll remove mods if the authors ask us to" is not a valid defense against the moral and ethical dilemma this hypocrisy entails.

Frankly, it's absolutely no different than stealing merchandise from someone's home while they're away on vacation, and then agreeing to return said merchandise only after they have been caught and charged, then claiming they were doing the homeowners a favor by saving it from a fire that has yet to happen. That is still theft, and redistributing files without the expressed permission of the mod authors BEFOREHAND is still piracy.

Blindly assuming that mods on Filefront have been abandoned just because they were on Filefront is naïve and troubling. If mod authors want their work to be preserved, by and large they will make sure that happens themselves. They don't need a self-appointed trustee to come along, decide those authors have abandoned their mods without any sort of systematic and quantifiable criteria, and redistribute their mods without the least consideration for the authors' wishes, and without securing their permission beforehand. That is mod theft and piracy, and it is no different than what the trolls are doing on Bethesda.net.

We're going to have to come to terms with this, sooner rather than later. If we're so worried about piracy and modders' rights, we need to practice what we preach.

Ethreon wrote: Filefront doesn't exist anymore. It was done with their accord. It's like leaving your house for vacation only to come find it gone (if Nexus didn't save the files), or intact and ready to use (current situation where files are saved). I see 0 hypocrisy here, but plenty of short sight from you.

phantompally76 wrote: That's a good point, and I'm sure all the legalities have been ironed out. But just because it's legal doesn't make it right. I think we all know that.

There is plenty of historical precedent for piracy sanctioned by the law. They call it privateering. But it's still piracy, and it's still hypocritical to condemn piracy while actively engaging in it yourselves, whether it's legal or not.

popcorn71 wrote: ...I think releasing a few mods your self might help you understand why people are so upset at this. I have spent literally thousands of hours working on mods over the last 10 years and it has defiantly given me a different perspective on things.

Lets assume that your augment about mod preservation is valid for a moment. If the was nexus suddenly shut down, I really wouldn't mind if some third party reupload all my old Oblivion mods or even my Skyrim mods so long as they A) respected the terms put foreword in the mod permission and description and B) if I ever asked them to remove the files they respected my wishes.

On the other hand, if some jerk just came along and reupload one of my mods WITHOUT RESPECTED THE TERMS CLEARLY PUT FOREWORD IN THE MOD PERMISSION AND DESCRIPTION and than refused to take the mod down, and then re-reupload it after it was forcibly taken down, and all for no other reason then because they were impatient or didn't like THE TERMS CLEARLY PUT FOREWORD IN THE MOD PERMISSION AND DESCRIPTION or even to preserve the mod in the highly unlikely event that the Nexus goes belly up, I would be EXTREMELY PISSED.

There really is no comparison between the filefront situation and what these thieves are doing, and to claim there is, that is an extremely weak argument.

phantompally76 wrote: Uploading a mod to a 3rd party site without the expressed permission of the original author is piracy.

The comparison is exact, regardless of intentions or legalities.

Piracy is piracy. There can be no double standard without implications.

popcorn71 wrote: my caps lock was not malfunction. all that stuff in all caps was important. go back and reread.

phantompally76 wrote: Sir, none of that is being regarded or observed. Stuff is just being uploaded. Much of it being categorized under the wrong game entirely (example: Almost everything under Lord of the Rings Online is actually Battle For Middle Earth 2 mods...a completely different and incompatible game, meaning several BFME2 mod authors would never know their mods were on here even if they went looking for them). No one is reading those Filefront/Gamefront descriptions when they're being uploaded. If it's not a bot program doing it (as I suspect), at most it's a hasty copy and paste hack job, and based off the sizable amount of misclassifications, the mandate seems to be "upload now, fix later".......does that rhetoric sound familiar?

At any rate, my point here is not to say "I'm right, and you're wrong". I THINK we're both on the same side of the issue on the moral implications of mod piracy. My point is that we (the site and by extension the community) are saying "I won't let them get away with this", but we are doing the exact same thing and are trying to justify it by saying it's for the greater good. It is still piracy, and we can't condemn the act yet promote it at the same time simply because it is beneficial for us to do so. It's got to be one or the other.

I'm just gonna say it. You're being pig headed. You're not listening to the other arguments at all. Go back to your hole.

[feltrockni]

In response to post #39692670.

Pronema wrote: Honestly, you need to write an article detailing how content creation is protected under Creative Commons and other licences so some people can get it through their thick skulls that free to download doesn't equal free to redistribute. And those who do are breaking the law and can face legal issues for doing so.

^ this

[phantompally76]

In response to post #39684490. #39686550, #39687780, #39688170, #39688440, #39688495, #39689940, #39691500, #39692070, #39692475, #39692705 are all replies on the same post.

phantompally76 wrote: I don't have much more to add to this.....whatever it is. I just want to ask a question, and follow it up with a comparison. I'll begin of course by reminding everyone that I vehemently oppose mod piracy in any form, because idiots here like to gloss over that and act like I'm their enemy simply because I don't see eye to eye with the hypocrisy of this tirade against console pirates and Bethesda.

What is stopping console mod thieves from saying "I am simply preserving this mod before it disappears from the Nexus/Steam, because it would be a shame to lose all these mods".? Is that considered a weak and invalid argument for mod piracy in the eyes of this community?

Because that is precisely what the Nexus is currently doing with mods off Filefront/Gamefront. Due credit is not always being given to the original authors of those mods, and authors' permission to upload them in the first place is definitely not being secured. You can't try to label piracy as "preservation" with one hand, and then lash out at overt piracy (which at the very least doesn't try to mask itself as something else) with the other.

And the only difference...the ONLY difference between those examples is that one of them generates potential website hits and ad revenue for the Nexus, and the other does not. Regardless, it is unequivocally hypocritical of this community to condemn one and praise the other.

popcorn71 wrote: I would say that the difference between what the nexus is doing with the Filefront mods and what the mod thieves are doing is that Filefront is dead and the nexus is not. A mod will not "disappears" off the nexus unless the mod author actively hides it, making it abundantly clear that the mod author does in fact want the mod to be inaccessible. If a mod website is dead then the mod authors have by definition already moved on and are uninterested/unable in maintaining (or removing) their mod.

It really just boils down to mod authors having the final say in how their work is distributed unless they have abandoned the mod entirely.

Still, I would hope that the nexus is respecting the wises of the authors who's mod are being converted and not converting over any files they have not been granted permission to convert.

AnyOldName3 wrote: Based on my (albeit limited) understanding of copyright law, the Nexus would have had to buy out FileFront's licences to distribute the files (which would potentially have been dirt cheap as they'd gone bust already) if they were to rehost them without manually contacting every single mod author about every single file. If that's what happened, as far as the original author is concerned, the Nexus is now FileFront, so nothing's changed except a URL, and it's possible that, depending on how it's done, they may have the same ability to control the files as they did before.

This is based on conjecture, but if it's right, then it explains how the situations are different, and if it's wrong, then I don't know enough about this to participate in this discussion, and can safely be ignored. :)

phantompally76 wrote: Nexus could be gone tomorrow as well. The perceived permanency of the repository does not change the definition of piracy.

The point is, as you stated yourself, it boils down to the wishes of the mod authors having the final say. Many of the authors on Filefront don't even know their mods have been uploaded here, and they are definitely not having their say. And as far as I'm concerned, "We'll remove mods if the authors ask us to" is not a valid defense against the moral and ethical dilemma this hypocrisy entails.

Frankly, it's absolutely no different than stealing merchandise from someone's home while they're away on vacation, and then agreeing to return said merchandise only after they have been caught and charged, then claiming they were doing the homeowners a favor by saving it from a fire that has yet to happen. That is still theft, and redistributing files without the expressed permission of the mod authors BEFOREHAND is still piracy.

Blindly assuming that mods on Filefront have been abandoned just because they were on Filefront is naïve and troubling. If mod authors want their work to be preserved, by and large they will make sure that happens themselves. They don't need a self-appointed trustee to come along, decide those authors have abandoned their mods without any sort of systematic and quantifiable criteria, and redistribute their mods without the least consideration for the authors' wishes, and without securing their permission beforehand. That is mod theft and piracy, and it is no different than what the trolls are doing on Bethesda.net.

We're going to have to come to terms with this, sooner rather than later. If we're so worried about piracy and modders' rights, we need to practice what we preach.

Ethreon wrote: Filefront doesn't exist anymore. It was done with their accord. It's like leaving your house for vacation only to come find it gone (if Nexus didn't save the files), or intact and ready to use (current situation where files are saved). I see 0 hypocrisy here, but plenty of short sight from you.

phantompally76 wrote: That's a good point, and I'm sure all the legalities have been ironed out. But just because it's legal doesn't make it right. I think we all know that.

There is plenty of historical precedent for piracy sanctioned by the law. They call it privateering. But it's still piracy, and it's still hypocritical to condemn piracy while actively engaging in it yourselves, whether it's legal or not.

popcorn71 wrote: ...I think releasing a few mods your self might help you understand why people are so upset at this. I have spent literally thousands of hours working on mods over the last 10 years and it has defiantly given me a different perspective on things.

Lets assume that your augment about mod preservation is valid for a moment. If the was nexus suddenly shut down, I really wouldn't mind if some third party reupload all my old Oblivion mods or even my Skyrim mods so long as they A) respected the terms put foreword in the mod permission and description and B) if I ever asked them to remove the files they respected my wishes.

On the other hand, if some jerk just came along and reupload one of my mods WITHOUT RESPECTED THE TERMS CLEARLY PUT FOREWORD IN THE MOD PERMISSION AND DESCRIPTION and than refused to take the mod down, and then re-reupload it after it was forcibly taken down, and all for no other reason then because they were impatient or didn't like THE TERMS CLEARLY PUT FOREWORD IN THE MOD PERMISSION AND DESCRIPTION or even to preserve the mod in the highly unlikely event that the Nexus goes belly up, I would be EXTREMELY PISSED.

There really is no comparison between the filefront situation and what these thieves are doing, and to claim there is, that is an extremely weak argument.

phantompally76 wrote: Uploading a mod to a 3rd party site without the expressed permission of the original author is piracy.

The comparison is exact, regardless of intentions or legalities.

Piracy is piracy. There can be no double standard without implications.

popcorn71 wrote: my caps lock was not malfunction. all that stuff in all caps was important. go back and reread.

phantompally76 wrote: Sir, none of that is being regarded or observed. Stuff is just being uploaded. Much of it being categorized under the wrong game entirely (example: Almost everything under Lord of the Rings Online is actually Battle For Middle Earth 2 mods...a completely different and incompatible game, meaning several BFME2 mod authors would never know their mods were on here even if they went looking for them). No one is reading those Filefront/Gamefront descriptions when they're being uploaded. If it's not a bot program doing it (as I suspect), at most it's a hasty copy and paste hack job, and based off the sizable amount of misclassifications, the mandate seems to be "upload now, fix later".......does that rhetoric sound familiar?

At any rate, my point here is not to say "I'm right, and you're wrong". I THINK we're both on the same side of the issue on the moral implications of mod piracy. My point is that we (the site and by extension the community) are saying "I won't let them get away with this", but we are doing the exact same thing and are trying to justify it by saying it's for the greater good. It is still piracy, and we can't condemn the act yet promote it at the same time simply because it is beneficial for us to do so. It's got to be one or the other.

feltrockni wrote: I'm just gonna say it. You're being pig headed. You're not listening to the other arguments at all. Go back to your hole.

No sir, I'm not being pigheaded. I'm being sensible. I know that's not entirely welcome in this community, but it's needed, now more than ever.

Now at this point what generally happens is that you or someone else is going to call me a troll because you either can't support your stance and want to provoke me, or you're flustered that I won't back down because you want me to, and you are unaccustomed to trying to match wits with someone who will actually stand behind their convictions. So be advised I'm not going to fall for your tricks. I'm simply going to close with the reminder that regardless of our stance on console mod piracy, when we download any of the new mods on the Nexus that were uploaded from Filefront/Gamefront, we are openly, actively and knowingly promoting and participating in mod piracy ourselves.

And as I opened, I will close with the reminder that I oppose mod piracy.

In all its forms.

[metaphorset]

In response to post #39692670. #39692720 is also a reply to the same post.

Pronema wrote: Honestly, you need to write an article detailing how content creation is protected under Creative Commons and other licences so some people can get it through their thick skulls that free to download doesn't equal free to redistribute. And those who do are breaking the law and can face legal issues for doing so.

feltrockni wrote: ^ this

There is absolutely no use to that.

Exhibit #1: There are tons of articles everywhere on the internet about CC, yet no thief cares. The same with other FLOSS Licenses. This goes so far that some Chinese and Indian companies download the source code for Blender, put their own Logo on it and start selling it.

[metaphorset]

In response to post #39691045. #39692170 is also a reply to the same post.

birchconnor834 wrote: Let me first say that I absolutely love the nexus and all it provides for new vegas, fallout 3 and skyrim on my pc but in regards to fallout 4 and all Bethesda games I would have to ask you a question-if Bethesda hadn't released it creation kits and access to game content where would the nexus community be? Answer: NOWHERE every aspect of modding the game comes from the game which BETHESDA CREATED what pc players need to understand is that the time of mods on the pc exclusively is over and the nexus obviously doesn't like this and its understandable because they are afraid they will lose one of there communities and eventually one of the most mod uploaded game for there site all in all pc users including me have to understand that all aspects of the game belong to Bethesda even if you don't agree with it and most importantly stop crying over "stolen mods" unless you trademarked,copyrighted or whatever else way you can claim ownership with they don't belong to you the belong to everyone in the fallout community which should have been every modders first intention when they uploaded there mod to a mod sharing website if you don't want people to "steal it" don't release it, keep it to yourselves, stop crying, and realize nothing is ever yours if you publicly release it

much regards to the nexus and everyone who is apart of it

Pronema wrote: Same can be said about you, with me and your mum. Seriously though. Unless somebody knocked up your mum you wouldn't exist. If your mum was a terrible person that abandoned you after you were born do you really owe her that much for getting knocked up?

Do you belong to me if I was your dad?

Are you supposed to hide in the woods for your entire life so that I guy claiming to be your dad doesn't kidnap you and claim you belong to him? (In case you didn't notice, I made out mod pirates and other content pirates to be pedophiles. Are you stealing and redistributing underage software? :O You pedo you!)

As rude as this post may be I hope I impress upon those who read it that stealing someone's work is not okay. Software or otherwise. And for god's sake, the mods being stolen are already free! You can't even argue about how it's too expensive and you steal them because you can't afford to pay for them, I mean really your argument is complete garbage.

As for trademark/copyright everything on the nexus as well as beth.net already falls under a creative commons licence, ala they are at the point of distribution already filed and legally documented, so you don't seem to understand much about copyright and trademark law and probably shouldn't be making the assumption that legal recourse can't be taken by someone who has uploaded mods here or for that matter any other site.

You are right... well, not completely. The Nexus would still be there because there are still people out here releasing mods for older games. And there are people out there who buy TES and Fallout games not only because they are decent, they do so because they love their modding abilities. I am one of those people and I instantly stop buying the games as soon as they start to restrict the modding possibilities.

I suggest you look up every single video of Todd Howard on youtube, that has been released over the last five years. He seems not getting tired of praising the community and how much Bethesda owes us and on and on and on.

Releasing games that are decent enough to get bought by many people is one thing. Really caring about the community and not only talking about it in some random video is something totally different.

[Ethreon]

In response to post #39691045. #39692170, #39696940 are all replies on the same post.

birchconnor834 wrote: Let me first say that I absolutely love the nexus and all it provides for new vegas, fallout 3 and skyrim on my pc but in regards to fallout 4 and all Bethesda games I would have to ask you a question-if Bethesda hadn't released it creation kits and access to game content where would the nexus community be? Answer: NOWHERE every aspect of modding the game comes from the game which BETHESDA CREATED what pc players need to understand is that the time of mods on the pc exclusively is over and the nexus obviously doesn't like this and its understandable because they are afraid they will lose one of there communities and eventually one of the most mod uploaded game for there site all in all pc users including me have to understand that all aspects of the game belong to Bethesda even if you don't agree with it and most importantly stop crying over "stolen mods" unless you trademarked,copyrighted or whatever else way you can claim ownership with they don't belong to you the belong to everyone in the fallout community which should have been every modders first intention when they uploaded there mod to a mod sharing website if you don't want people to "steal it" don't release it, keep it to yourselves, stop crying, and realize nothing is ever yours if you publicly release it

much regards to the nexus and everyone who is apart of it

Pronema wrote: Same can be said about you, with me and your mum. Seriously though. Unless somebody knocked up your mum you wouldn't exist. If your mum was a terrible person that abandoned you after you were born do you really owe her that much for getting knocked up?

Do you belong to me if I was your dad?

Are you supposed to hide in the woods for your entire life so that I guy claiming to be your dad doesn't kidnap you and claim you belong to him? (In case you didn't notice, I made out mod pirates and other content pirates to be pedophiles. Are you stealing and redistributing underage software? :O You pedo you!)

As rude as this post may be I hope I impress upon those who read it that stealing someone's work is not okay. Software or otherwise. And for god's sake, the mods being stolen are already free! You can't even argue about how it's too expensive and you steal them because you can't afford to pay for them, I mean really your argument is complete garbage.

As for trademark/copyright everything on the nexus as well as beth.net already falls under a creative commons licence, ala they are at the point of distribution already filed and legally documented, so you don't seem to understand much about copyright and trademark law and probably shouldn't be making the assumption that legal recourse can't be taken by someone who has uploaded mods here or for that matter any other site.

metaphorset wrote: You are right... well, not completely. The Nexus would still be there because there are still people out here releasing mods for older games. And there are people out there who buy TES and Fallout games not only because they are decent, they do so because they love their modding abilities. I am one of those people and I instantly stop buying the games as soon as they start to restrict the modding possibilities.

I suggest you look up every single video of Todd Howard on youtube, that has been released over the last five years. He seems not getting tired of praising the community and how much Bethesda owes us and on and on and on.

Releasing games that are decent enough to get bought by many people is one thing. Really caring about the community and not only talking about it in some random video is something totally different.

Wonder if people posting such inane ramblings realize nexus is incredibly large and covers over 300 games and won't fail just cause we get console mods.

Wonder if same people realize the textures ones makes with photoshop are not bethesdas, nor are the stories/dialogue one writes in word, nor are the models made in blender/max on which authors work hours upon hours.

Gotta love how "it's free, so I can do whatever I want with it" argument is brought up.

So no, only things belonging to beth are what they made and what I use from their creations. If I made new stuff they're all mine.

So to follow up on the stupid ending - stop crying about what other people can do with their own goods and creations.

[dobmc]

"It's just a prank bro" -Bethesda

[DrakeTheDragon]

In response to post #39691045. #39692170, #39696940, #39697340, #39706155 are all replies on the same post.

birchconnor834 wrote: Let me first say that I absolutely love the nexus and all it provides for new vegas, fallout 3 and skyrim on my pc but in regards to fallout 4 and all Bethesda games I would have to ask you a question-if Bethesda hadn't released it creation kits and access to game content where would the nexus community be? Answer: NOWHERE every aspect of modding the game comes from the game which BETHESDA CREATED what pc players need to understand is that the time of mods on the pc exclusively is over and the nexus obviously doesn't like this and its understandable because they are afraid they will lose one of there communities and eventually one of the most mod uploaded game for there site all in all pc users including me have to understand that all aspects of the game belong to Bethesda even if you don't agree with it and most importantly stop crying over "stolen mods" unless you trademarked,copyrighted or whatever else way you can claim ownership with they don't belong to you the belong to everyone in the fallout community which should have been every modders first intention when they uploaded there mod to a mod sharing website if you don't want people to "steal it" don't release it, keep it to yourselves, stop crying, and realize nothing is ever yours if you publicly release it

much regards to the nexus and everyone who is apart of it

Pronema wrote: Same can be said about you, with me and your mum. Seriously though. Unless somebody knocked up your mum you wouldn't exist. If your mum was a terrible person that abandoned you after you were born do you really owe her that much for getting knocked up?

Do you belong to me if I was your dad?

Are you supposed to hide in the woods for your entire life so that I guy claiming to be your dad doesn't kidnap you and claim you belong to him? (In case you didn't notice, I made out mod pirates and other content pirates to be pedophiles. Are you stealing and redistributing underage software? :O You pedo you!)

As rude as this post may be I hope I impress upon those who read it that stealing someone's work is not okay. Software or otherwise. And for god's sake, the mods being stolen are already free! You can't even argue about how it's too expensive and you steal them because you can't afford to pay for them, I mean really your argument is complete garbage.

As for trademark/copyright everything on the nexus as well as beth.net already falls under a creative commons licence, ala they are at the point of distribution already filed and legally documented, so you don't seem to understand much about copyright and trademark law and probably shouldn't be making the assumption that legal recourse can't be taken by someone who has uploaded mods here or for that matter any other site.

metaphorset wrote: You are right... well, not completely. The Nexus would still be there because there are still people out here releasing mods for older games. And there are people out there who buy TES and Fallout games not only because they are decent, they do so because they love their modding abilities. I am one of those people and I instantly stop buying the games as soon as they start to restrict the modding possibilities.

I suggest you look up every single video of Todd Howard on youtube, that has been released over the last five years. He seems not getting tired of praising the community and how much Bethesda owes us and on and on and on.

Releasing games that are decent enough to get bought by many people is one thing. Really caring about the community and not only talking about it in some random video is something totally different.

Ethreon wrote: Wonder if people posting such inane ramblings realize nexus is incredibly large and covers over 300 games and won't fail just cause we get console mods.

Wonder if same people realize the textures ones makes with photoshop are not bethesdas, nor are the stories/dialogue one writes in word, nor are the models made in blender/max on which authors work hours upon hours.

Gotta love how "it's free, so I can do whatever I want with it" argument is brought up.

So no, only things belonging to beth are what they made and what I use from their creations. If I made new stuff they're all mine.

So to follow up on the stupid ending - stop crying about what other people can do with their own goods and creations.

wPatriot wrote: Jesus christ. People this stupid shouldn't be allowed to make decisions for themselves.

It might also help just reading the article once before posting. In this case OP is contradicting what was said like they just didn't read it.

And you should really check your laws again and the ruling of Bethesda. They're all in disagreement with you.

As for that last line, "if you don't want people to 'steal it' don't release it, keep it to yourselves", it might be welcome for you to know about 90% of the authors on here are now seriously considering that option. Just ask around. They've had enough of it.

[Dark0ne]

In response to post #39684490. #39686550, #39687780, #39688170, #39688440, #39688495, #39689940, #39691500, #39692070, #39692475, #39692705, #39693370 are all replies on the same post.

phantompally76 wrote: I don't have much more to add to this.....whatever it is. I just want to ask a question, and follow it up with a comparison. I'll begin of course by reminding everyone that I vehemently oppose mod piracy in any form, because idiots here like to gloss over that and act like I'm their enemy simply because I don't see eye to eye with the hypocrisy of this tirade against console pirates and Bethesda.

What is stopping console mod thieves from saying "I am simply preserving this mod before it disappears from the Nexus/Steam, because it would be a shame to lose all these mods".? Is that considered a weak and invalid argument for mod piracy in the eyes of this community?

Because that is precisely what the Nexus is currently doing with mods off Filefront/Gamefront. Due credit is not always being given to the original authors of those mods, and authors' permission to upload them in the first place is definitely not being secured. You can't try to label piracy as "preservation" with one hand, and then lash out at overt piracy (which at the very least doesn't try to mask itself as something else) with the other.

And the only difference...the ONLY difference between those examples is that one of them generates potential website hits and ad revenue for the Nexus, and the other does not. Regardless, it is unequivocally hypocritical of this community to condemn one and praise the other.

popcorn71 wrote: I would say that the difference between what the nexus is doing with the Filefront mods and what the mod thieves are doing is that Filefront is dead and the nexus is not. A mod will not "disappears" off the nexus unless the mod author actively hides it, making it abundantly clear that the mod author does in fact want the mod to be inaccessible. If a mod website is dead then the mod authors have by definition already moved on and are uninterested/unable in maintaining (or removing) their mod.

It really just boils down to mod authors having the final say in how their work is distributed unless they have abandoned the mod entirely.

Still, I would hope that the nexus is respecting the wises of the authors who's mod are being converted and not converting over any files they have not been granted permission to convert.

AnyOldName3 wrote: Based on my (albeit limited) understanding of copyright law, the Nexus would have had to buy out FileFront's licences to distribute the files (which would potentially have been dirt cheap as they'd gone bust already) if they were to rehost them without manually contacting every single mod author about every single file. If that's what happened, as far as the original author is concerned, the Nexus is now FileFront, so nothing's changed except a URL, and it's possible that, depending on how it's done, they may have the same ability to control the files as they did before.

This is based on conjecture, but if it's right, then it explains how the situations are different, and if it's wrong, then I don't know enough about this to participate in this discussion, and can safely be ignored. :)

phantompally76 wrote: Nexus could be gone tomorrow as well. The perceived permanency of the repository does not change the definition of piracy.

The point is, as you stated yourself, it boils down to the wishes of the mod authors having the final say. Many of the authors on Filefront don't even know their mods have been uploaded here, and they are definitely not having their say. And as far as I'm concerned, "We'll remove mods if the authors ask us to" is not a valid defense against the moral and ethical dilemma this hypocrisy entails.

Frankly, it's absolutely no different than stealing merchandise from someone's home while they're away on vacation, and then agreeing to return said merchandise only after they have been caught and charged, then claiming they were doing the homeowners a favor by saving it from a fire that has yet to happen. That is still theft, and redistributing files without the expressed permission of the mod authors BEFOREHAND is still piracy.

Blindly assuming that mods on Filefront have been abandoned just because they were on Filefront is naïve and troubling. If mod authors want their work to be preserved, by and large they will make sure that happens themselves. They don't need a self-appointed trustee to come along, decide those authors have abandoned their mods without any sort of systematic and quantifiable criteria, and redistribute their mods without the least consideration for the authors' wishes, and without securing their permission beforehand. That is mod theft and piracy, and it is no different than what the trolls are doing on Bethesda.net.

We're going to have to come to terms with this, sooner rather than later. If we're so worried about piracy and modders' rights, we need to practice what we preach.

Ethreon wrote: Filefront doesn't exist anymore. It was done with their accord. It's like leaving your house for vacation only to come find it gone (if Nexus didn't save the files), or intact and ready to use (current situation where files are saved). I see 0 hypocrisy here, but plenty of short sight from you.

phantompally76 wrote: That's a good point, and I'm sure all the legalities have been ironed out. But just because it's legal doesn't make it right. I think we all know that.

There is plenty of historical precedent for piracy sanctioned by the law. They call it privateering. But it's still piracy, and it's still hypocritical to condemn piracy while actively engaging in it yourselves, whether it's legal or not.

popcorn71 wrote: ...I think releasing a few mods your self might help you understand why people are so upset at this. I have spent literally thousands of hours working on mods over the last 10 years and it has defiantly given me a different perspective on things.

Lets assume that your augment about mod preservation is valid for a moment. If the was nexus suddenly shut down, I really wouldn't mind if some third party reupload all my old Oblivion mods or even my Skyrim mods so long as they A) respected the terms put foreword in the mod permission and description and B) if I ever asked them to remove the files they respected my wishes.

On the other hand, if some jerk just came along and reupload one of my mods WITHOUT RESPECTED THE TERMS CLEARLY PUT FOREWORD IN THE MOD PERMISSION AND DESCRIPTION and than refused to take the mod down, and then re-reupload it after it was forcibly taken down, and all for no other reason then because they were impatient or didn't like THE TERMS CLEARLY PUT FOREWORD IN THE MOD PERMISSION AND DESCRIPTION or even to preserve the mod in the highly unlikely event that the Nexus goes belly up, I would be EXTREMELY PISSED.

There really is no comparison between the filefront situation and what these thieves are doing, and to claim there is, that is an extremely weak argument.

phantompally76 wrote: Uploading a mod to a 3rd party site without the expressed permission of the original author is piracy.

The comparison is exact, regardless of intentions or legalities.

Piracy is piracy. There can be no double standard without implications.

popcorn71 wrote: my caps lock was not malfunction. all that stuff in all caps was important. go back and reread.

phantompally76 wrote: Sir, none of that is being regarded or observed. Stuff is just being uploaded. Much of it being categorized under the wrong game entirely (example: Almost everything under Lord of the Rings Online is actually Battle For Middle Earth 2 mods...a completely different and incompatible game, meaning several BFME2 mod authors would never know their mods were on here even if they went looking for them). No one is reading those Filefront/Gamefront descriptions when they're being uploaded. If it's not a bot program doing it (as I suspect), at most it's a hasty copy and paste hack job, and based off the sizable amount of misclassifications, the mandate seems to be "upload now, fix later".......does that rhetoric sound familiar?

At any rate, my point here is not to say "I'm right, and you're wrong". I THINK we're both on the same side of the issue on the moral implications of mod piracy. My point is that we (the site and by extension the community) are saying "I won't let them get away with this", but we are doing the exact same thing and are trying to justify it by saying it's for the greater good. It is still piracy, and we can't condemn the act yet promote it at the same time simply because it is beneficial for us to do so. It's got to be one or the other.

feltrockni wrote: I'm just gonna say it. You're being pig headed. You're not listening to the other arguments at all. Go back to your hole.

phantompally76 wrote: No sir, I'm not being pigheaded. I'm being sensible. I know that's not entirely welcome in this community, but it's needed, now more than ever.

Now at this point what generally happens is that you or someone else is going to call me a troll because you either can't support your stance and want to provoke me, or you're flustered that I won't back down because you want me to, and you are unaccustomed to trying to match wits with someone who will actually stand behind their convictions. So be advised I'm not going to fall for your tricks. I'm simply going to close with the reminder that regardless of our stance on console mod piracy, when we download any of the new mods on the Nexus that were uploaded from Filefront/Gamefront, we are openly, actively and knowingly promoting and participating in mod piracy ourselves.

And as I opened, I will close with the reminder that I oppose mod piracy.

In all its forms.

I respect your opinion being different, but we fundamentally disagree with your interpretation. You've made it clear you won't be swung on this topic, and neither shall we.

Stick to this thread or the other one, but if you continue to cross post your opinion around the various threads currently active then they will be moderated.

[MrStoob]

It's rather like their games - release broken, patch later. Only us the consumer suffers there.

 

Good work regardless. Sober thoughts on a frustrating scenario.