Nexus Mod Manager focus group needs more help

[drscott11]

In response to post #39921280. #39921895 is also a reply to the same post.

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GameDuchess wrote: Not at all to belittle a really awesome idea -- seriously, I love the whole concept -- but please, please, please could we focus on bug fixing the existing model first before throwing a whole kitchen sink on top of it?

The latest version I'm using won't even check for updated versions for half the mods I've put into it on a freshly modded game. (Especially if you download via manual link and then drag it into NMM to install as I usually do to prevent corrupted downloads using the NMM buttons.) No file name changes, nothing. Everything worked just fine in this regard a few versions of NMM back. And it's not just Fallout 4, it's doing it with Skyrim as well, which is extremely frustrating.

More times than I can count now it does not fully uninstall large mods (or even some small mods), making a mess - especially with leaving abandoned textures/meshes. Large mods get hung up sometimes and fail to install or uninstall -- locking up NMM and/or CTD in the midst, or like in the case of something like Legacy, take an HOUR to install where it only takes 10 minutes on MO. And you aren't even sure if it's locked up, or it is just taking forever and ever.

This is going to be a special kind of hell, the extremely long install times, with this whole idea of downloading and installing a whole mod list.

And yes, yes, yes, we need installation out of the data folder, like MO. I don't want or need all the virtual stuff. I want NMM but with the logic of MO not throwing everything into the data folder and making a mess if something goes wrong. Which, right now, with the latest two/three versions, has been a LOT, especially with the installing/uninstalling issues.

I love NMM. I refuse to give it up for MO even after learning about MO and using it for three months. I switched back because NMM is simpler, easier to work with, doesn't have some of the restrictions and complications of modding with MO. NMM is an AMAZING work and I give incredibly high praise to all involved. But you don't build a mansion on top of a shaky foundation. It's not good architecture and it's not good software engineering. We all want to rush ahead to the next amazing level, but please let's fix NMM as it is before skipping to god mode.

And as far as that goes, why not actually just make a separate tool altogether for this whole mod load order downloading and sharing thing with the ability to tie it into NMM? Instead of lumping all together and creating a big monster to deal with in bug fixing and updates in the future? I certainly would prefer that.

Reading through these comments, it seems overwhelmingly that other NMM users feel the same. Yes, these ideas are cool and fun futuristic, but please could we have a not borked version of NMM working before we launch into the next level of crazy?

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DuskDweller wrote: All the issues you're experiencing in current 0.61.x builds are all fixed in the next 0.62 release.

Agree 100% with the OP. It's very similar to how I feel about the government. Enforce the laws you have on the books before making new ones. In this case, get the base product working perfectly, with a high level of QoL, then start adding new major features... or... make a second tool, "NPM" or "Nexus Profile Manager" for handling of the profiles. Edited June 29, 2016 by drscott11

[jballou]

I sent an email, but I'll chime in here as well.

 

First off, the effort I've seen from Nexus to build NMM, host mods, and get user feedback is immensely pleasing to me as a software architect. You guys are doing good work, have a good product, and see the value in user connection and feedback for product refinement. Thank you for doing it right.

That said, I've seen a bit of a regression when it comes to the core function of NMM. Just updating mods in Witcher 3 has become less reliable than it used to be. It seems like every author releases new versions or entirely new files for each version, and that's a big issue. My guess is that making this work smoother would involve putting more metadata into the database backing NMM, have better version masking and compatibility data for mods. If users could report issues like "Mod X and Mod Y can't run at the same time", that could help users from getting into situations where their mod profile is screwed up, and then they naturally blame NMM.

I would be putting a lot of time and energy into getting more user feedback via instrumentation. Have an opt-in program where users can submit anonymous usage information like the games they use, the mods they install, profile and virtual install settings, etc. This can be invaluable in showing what the actual bulk of users need, rather than just the vocal ones on the forums. I'd go so far as to offer Premium service to users who wanted to be a part of the pilot for that, you'd probably get a good cross-section of active users to take you up on it and start getting actionable data quickly.

As far as virtual installs and profiles, as a long time user I have never had a desire to use them. They also seem like they overlap each other a lot, which is very confusing for users when two features implement similar functionality. I also see that most feedback is negative, so it may be wise to shelve that until the core manager is in a more robust state. I don't understand why NMM doesn't just move entire mods in and out when switching profile/VI rather than relying on mklink or whatever you have. Am I just missing the purpose of this feature, because if it's just switching between lists of mods to install that seems like a pretty simple problem with a very complex solution.

As far as mods that have been modified after install being in shared profiles, that's a pretty narrow use case that will need a ton of work to support. My guess there is that will be prioritized pretty low on the list, if at all. If I was going to spend time on this, I'd want some sort of patch mechanism so users can package such changes for distribution. But this opens the door to a huge body of work, and I doubt the amount of users who would use the feature would justify that amount of risk and development time.

 

It may be worthwhile to have the script merge tool integrated in NMM though, especially to fix known incompatibilities. I know very little about it, but can it be used via API or command line?

That's all for now, take care.

[derekthedj]

In response to post #39921280. #39921895, #39940435 are all replies on the same post.

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GameDuchess wrote: Not at all to belittle a really awesome idea -- seriously, I love the whole concept -- but please, please, please could we focus on bug fixing the existing model first before throwing a whole kitchen sink on top of it?

The latest version I'm using won't even check for updated versions for half the mods I've put into it on a freshly modded game. (Especially if you download via manual link and then drag it into NMM to install as I usually do to prevent corrupted downloads using the NMM buttons.) No file name changes, nothing. Everything worked just fine in this regard a few versions of NMM back. And it's not just Fallout 4, it's doing it with Skyrim as well, which is extremely frustrating.

More times than I can count now it does not fully uninstall large mods (or even some small mods), making a mess - especially with leaving abandoned textures/meshes. Large mods get hung up sometimes and fail to install or uninstall -- locking up NMM and/or CTD in the midst, or like in the case of something like Legacy, take an HOUR to install where it only takes 10 minutes on MO. And you aren't even sure if it's locked up, or it is just taking forever and ever.

This is going to be a special kind of hell, the extremely long install times, with this whole idea of downloading and installing a whole mod list.

And yes, yes, yes, we need installation out of the data folder, like MO. I don't want or need all the virtual stuff. I want NMM but with the logic of MO not throwing everything into the data folder and making a mess if something goes wrong. Which, right now, with the latest two/three versions, has been a LOT, especially with the installing/uninstalling issues.

I love NMM. I refuse to give it up for MO even after learning about MO and using it for three months. I switched back because NMM is simpler, easier to work with, doesn't have some of the restrictions and complications of modding with MO. NMM is an AMAZING work and I give incredibly high praise to all involved. But you don't build a mansion on top of a shaky foundation. It's not good architecture and it's not good software engineering. We all want to rush ahead to the next amazing level, but please let's fix NMM as it is before skipping to god mode.

And as far as that goes, why not actually just make a separate tool altogether for this whole mod load order downloading and sharing thing with the ability to tie it into NMM? Instead of lumping all together and creating a big monster to deal with in bug fixing and updates in the future? I certainly would prefer that.

Reading through these comments, it seems overwhelmingly that other NMM users feel the same. Yes, these ideas are cool and fun futuristic, but please could we have a not borked version of NMM working before we launch into the next level of crazy?

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DuskDweller wrote: All the issues you're experiencing in current 0.61.x builds are all fixed in the next 0.62 release.

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drscott11 wrote: Agree 100% with the OP. It's very similar to how I feel about the government. Enforce the laws you have on the books before making new ones. In this case, get the base product working perfectly, with a high level of QoL, then start adding new major features... or... make a second tool, "NPM" or "Nexus Profile Manager" for handling of the profiles.

Good to hear. Thanks for helping make NMM great!

[GorrWarrior]

I don't like to rely on the internet to play a game. I have played elder scrolls game since arena. I love the mods here... Dark0ne is the man... I remember downloading morrowind mods here and grumpy who died some years later... he made some good mods does anyone remember exploring morrowind when fast travel didn't exist?? I played morrowind for 6 months even before I know about mods. In morrowind you could not make a constant effect item unless you could kill a golden saint. The character creation in elder scrolls games has become very bland. I am not a coder nor do I know how to make mods...but the original concept of the Elder Scrolls has lost it's meaning. maybe todd needs more money or is under too much pressure...I played fallout 4 for 3 weeks... it got boring so I went back to skyrim...just make a good game todd.. that doesn't rely on the internet to play

 

[HadToRegister]

In response to post #39921280. #39921895, #39940435, #39952635 are all replies on the same post.

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GameDuchess wrote: Not at all to belittle a really awesome idea -- seriously, I love the whole concept -- but please, please, please could we focus on bug fixing the existing model first before throwing a whole kitchen sink on top of it?

The latest version I'm using won't even check for updated versions for half the mods I've put into it on a freshly modded game. (Especially if you download via manual link and then drag it into NMM to install as I usually do to prevent corrupted downloads using the NMM buttons.) No file name changes, nothing. Everything worked just fine in this regard a few versions of NMM back. And it's not just Fallout 4, it's doing it with Skyrim as well, which is extremely frustrating.

More times than I can count now it does not fully uninstall large mods (or even some small mods), making a mess - especially with leaving abandoned textures/meshes. Large mods get hung up sometimes and fail to install or uninstall -- locking up NMM and/or CTD in the midst, or like in the case of something like Legacy, take an HOUR to install where it only takes 10 minutes on MO. And you aren't even sure if it's locked up, or it is just taking forever and ever.

This is going to be a special kind of hell, the extremely long install times, with this whole idea of downloading and installing a whole mod list.

And yes, yes, yes, we need installation out of the data folder, like MO. I don't want or need all the virtual stuff. I want NMM but with the logic of MO not throwing everything into the data folder and making a mess if something goes wrong. Which, right now, with the latest two/three versions, has been a LOT, especially with the installing/uninstalling issues.

I love NMM. I refuse to give it up for MO even after learning about MO and using it for three months. I switched back because NMM is simpler, easier to work with, doesn't have some of the restrictions and complications of modding with MO. NMM is an AMAZING work and I give incredibly high praise to all involved. But you don't build a mansion on top of a shaky foundation. It's not good architecture and it's not good software engineering. We all want to rush ahead to the next amazing level, but please let's fix NMM as it is before skipping to god mode.

And as far as that goes, why not actually just make a separate tool altogether for this whole mod load order downloading and sharing thing with the ability to tie it into NMM? Instead of lumping all together and creating a big monster to deal with in bug fixing and updates in the future? I certainly would prefer that.

Reading through these comments, it seems overwhelmingly that other NMM users feel the same. Yes, these ideas are cool and fun futuristic, but please could we have a not borked version of NMM working before we launch into the next level of crazy?

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DuskDweller wrote: All the issues you're experiencing in current 0.61.x builds are all fixed in the next 0.62 release.

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drscott11 wrote: Agree 100% with the OP. It's very similar to how I feel about the government. Enforce the laws you have on the books before making new ones. In this case, get the base product working perfectly, with a high level of QoL, then start adding new major features... or... make a second tool, "NPM" or "Nexus Profile Manager" for handling of the profiles.

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derekthedj wrote: Good to hear. Thanks for helping make NMM great!

Tacking on my 2 cents from further down, seeing as this one got attention.

I usually end up with an unresponsive NMM that has to be shut down with CTRL+ALT+DEL when attempting uninstall some mods, (usually the larger ones), and sometimes the 'virtual' part with miss a file or never install some files.
It happens randomly.

I thought the "Virtual Install" feature was an "optional" thing, as I would've just used regular install, rather than Virtual.

I'd also love it if the CATEGORIES were actually FOLDERS.
As when I update mods, I move the older uninstalled mod to a "OLD" category, but when trying to free upo disc space by backing up the OLD mods to an external drive, I have to look through the list one at a time, because they're all tossed into the same FOLDER

ALSO, I've noticed that if you use the "Get Mod Info" feature, it makes the mod disappear entirely from your mod list and refuses to return it.

I've had to delete the mod from my harddrive and delete the entries in the XML file in order to get NMM to acknowledge the mod once again exists.

I also find the "Profiles" in NMM counter intuitive.
In Mod Organizer, if you want to try out a mod that could ruin your set up you could just COPY your current profile, switch to it, and install the new mod.

I have absolutely NO idea how to copy my profile in NMM or if it's even possible.

[Crimsonhawk87]

In response to post #39909305. #39910355, #39912505, #39913875, #39914805, #39915370, #39919085, #39928575, #39931090, #39940405 are all replies on the same post.

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ff7legend wrote: I seriously hope this upcoming update won't be a radical one like the disastrous 0.60 update was. A lot of modders, including the SOT (Sands of Time) Team, lost their entire modded Skyrim setup due to the aforementioned radical update. I really don't want to have to play Russian Roulette with future NMM updates.

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Dark0ne wrote: That's kind of the entire point of asking for people to help us bug test before major releases, guys.

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drscott11 wrote: I think what he is saying is that do we really need these new features? Honestly I have zero use for them. Are they nice tech achievements, yes, but not really necessary imo.

I'd really like to see more QoL features like a better UI, the ability to "send esp to top/bottom" of the mod list or to a specific number/place in the load order. How about fixing the horrid column resizing in the mod activation list or improving the abysmal performance of the "remove mod from all profiles" as it takes forever even on an i7 w/SSD. I could go on but I'm sure others will agree.

I'd like to see more focus on improving the core product as opposed to adding unneeded features.

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janishewski wrote: I couldn't disagree more. These features are, I think, fundamental to make modding easier which should be the main goal of NMM in the first place. Exchanging mod setups with people that have already worked out the kinks and have a stable game going is a fantastic feature that will bring more people into modding. I see, almost daily, stories around the internet about how people want to mod their games, but don't know where to start, and let's be honest, this is a good community, but as I know from when I started years ago, it is not the most friendly towards people new to it and new to modding. Just because a feature may not be important to you, does not mean it won't be important to modding. There is no reason for a mod manager of any kind to exist if the point isn't to make modding games easier. If you want to wait and see how the next release pans out before upgrading, I see no problem. The current version of NMM isn't working properly in many ways anyway.

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sgtmcbiscuits wrote: @drscott11
It sounds like you know a fair bit about modding your game. That's great! The problem is, the vast majority of people don't. This kind of stuff isn't there for the people that know a lot about modding, it's there for those who want it to be simple and easy. There are tons of people who want to get into modding their games, but for them, it's too intimidating to start. And who can blame them for feeling that way? With nearly 50K mods uploaded to the Skyrim Nexus, and 12K on Fallout 4, that's a lot to take in for someone new. Adding shareable profiles is mostly for those new people. It helps them get a grasp on how modding works, without throwing too much at them. That way, the modding community expands it's borders; and the more people in the community the better! After all, the more people that are here, the more people will be making great new mods, which means great news for you!

Just because this update won't accomplish things for you directly doesn't mean that it won't be beneficial to everyone in the long run

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arkayn71 wrote: What I want is the capability of upgrading mods back again.

Currently all we can do is install the new version and then uninstall the old version, not intuitive at all.

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midtek wrote: Well, so as long as update doesn't cause malfunction, there's no problem about adding new features right? Even if some find it has zero use for them. OP and drscott11 are talking about different things.

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lemonsquare wrote: "I think what he is saying is that do we really need these new features? Honestly I have zero use for them."

What an absolutely puzzling statement. The upcoming features are extremely, extremely useful, objectively speaking.

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ff7legend wrote: I, myself, don't use Profiles at all. They're bugged/glitched & the more mods one has installed, the more likely for something to go wrong. Just ask tonycubed (SOT Team member) what can happen when switching profiles with a large mod list like his. The 0.60 update was far too radical & completely destroyed many modders' mod setups/game installs in their entirety. I don't want to have to deal with that risk yet again, hence why I'm posting about not wanting to play Russian Roulette when it comes to updating NMM yet again.

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drscott11 wrote: It all sounds great until you actually try to use the feature and it breaks everything... I obey the KISS rule... With over 200 ESP's in my load order, and with some of my mods being over 1GB each, it takes a life-age for NMM to switch to another profile. I find it far easier and much less buggy to do it manually.... which still takes over 2hrs for a complete reinstall.

Also, NMM does not handle errors well and it's likely that it will freeze or crash while switching which is a waste of time and trashes your install.

Yup, I just switched my Skyrim profile from my "adult" version to my son's much watered down version and it took a very loooong time to do that. And I still had to go back in and manually adjust a bunch of mods. I like the profile feature, as it let's my son play Skyrim (FO4 is a mature game for adults, so he's getting no where near that game anyways), but it still has some bugs that need ironing out....I can't even begin to imagine the chaos of trying to d/l and implement someone elses modded game.

With all of that negative said, I do like the idea of sharing mod profiles and I think the back up/snapshot idea is tremendous, it's just that I see major problems on the horizon if the core stuff isn't nailed down first.

[iSagan]

I recently installed Nexus Mod Manager as an alternative to other mod managers, because its much more user friendly to people who are completely new to the mod scene. I have never modded a game in my life before Fallout 4 a couple of days ago. I managed to download a small Console mod for survival mode (which disables the console) so that I could fix bugs and issues I encounter. I worked fine, downloading and activating was extremely smooth and simple. I was 1 large mod away from going platinum just to show appreciation (I was ridiculously happy I thought it would be very complicated). HOWEVER, 3 days later, after playing Fallout 4 when ever I was on the computer, the Nexus Mod Manager has stopped working entirely. I follow the instructions with complete comprehension, I install the mod via NMM and attempt to activate the mods. Most of the time they activate, other times they won't. Either way, active or not, the mods now make no difference. I get it all working, according to the manager and all the help on the forums I could get, but for some reason the mods never appear in game. I tested with a Dialogue mod, after I manually install it myself and avoid interactions with the Nexus it works 100%. When I try WITH the Nexus, it didn't work.

 

I might be in a small group, but either way, you're losing money and support. Fix the bugs and give us some better tech support before you throw your current version into the trash to add flashier UIs otherwise it will be another 6 months before you even return to the people like me. Whats worse about all this hassle which chewed up 40 hours of my time and gave me a persistant head ache, is now I can't play Fallout 4 after seeing the amazing mods that are out there.

[WaterTooCold]

I see your goal and i would love to see this happen! i always wanted people mod setups but some times the list was way to long and other times i just wanted to quick play a mods setup but didn't have time to mod every mod one by one. WISH YOU LUCK!!

[geek007uk]

In response to post #39909305. #39910355, #39912505, #39913875, #39914805, #39915370, #39919085, #39928575, #39931090, #39940405, #39954020 are all replies on the same post.

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ff7legend wrote: I seriously hope this upcoming update won't be a radical one like the disastrous 0.60 update was. A lot of modders, including the SOT (Sands of Time) Team, lost their entire modded Skyrim setup due to the aforementioned radical update. I really don't want to have to play Russian Roulette with future NMM updates.

  Quote

Dark0ne wrote: That's kind of the entire point of asking for people to help us bug test before major releases, guys.

  Quote

drscott11 wrote: I think what he is saying is that do we really need these new features? Honestly I have zero use for them. Are they nice tech achievements, yes, but not really necessary imo.

I'd really like to see more QoL features like a better UI, the ability to "send esp to top/bottom" of the mod list or to a specific number/place in the load order. How about fixing the horrid column resizing in the mod activation list or improving the abysmal performance of the "remove mod from all profiles" as it takes forever even on an i7 w/SSD. I could go on but I'm sure others will agree.

I'd like to see more focus on improving the core product as opposed to adding unneeded features.

  Quote

janishewski wrote: I couldn't disagree more. These features are, I think, fundamental to make modding easier which should be the main goal of NMM in the first place. Exchanging mod setups with people that have already worked out the kinks and have a stable game going is a fantastic feature that will bring more people into modding. I see, almost daily, stories around the internet about how people want to mod their games, but don't know where to start, and let's be honest, this is a good community, but as I know from when I started years ago, it is not the most friendly towards people new to it and new to modding. Just because a feature may not be important to you, does not mean it won't be important to modding. There is no reason for a mod manager of any kind to exist if the point isn't to make modding games easier. If you want to wait and see how the next release pans out before upgrading, I see no problem. The current version of NMM isn't working properly in many ways anyway.

  Quote

sgtmcbiscuits wrote: @drscott11
It sounds like you know a fair bit about modding your game. That's great! The problem is, the vast majority of people don't. This kind of stuff isn't there for the people that know a lot about modding, it's there for those who want it to be simple and easy. There are tons of people who want to get into modding their games, but for them, it's too intimidating to start. And who can blame them for feeling that way? With nearly 50K mods uploaded to the Skyrim Nexus, and 12K on Fallout 4, that's a lot to take in for someone new. Adding shareable profiles is mostly for those new people. It helps them get a grasp on how modding works, without throwing too much at them. That way, the modding community expands it's borders; and the more people in the community the better! After all, the more people that are here, the more people will be making great new mods, which means great news for you!

Just because this update won't accomplish things for you directly doesn't mean that it won't be beneficial to everyone in the long run

  Quote

arkayn71 wrote: What I want is the capability of upgrading mods back again.

Currently all we can do is install the new version and then uninstall the old version, not intuitive at all.

  Quote

midtek wrote: Well, so as long as update doesn't cause malfunction, there's no problem about adding new features right? Even if some find it has zero use for them. OP and drscott11 are talking about different things.

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lemonsquare wrote: "I think what he is saying is that do we really need these new features? Honestly I have zero use for them."

What an absolutely puzzling statement. The upcoming features are extremely, extremely useful, objectively speaking.

  Quote

ff7legend wrote: I, myself, don't use Profiles at all. They're bugged/glitched & the more mods one has installed, the more likely for something to go wrong. Just ask tonycubed (SOT Team member) what can happen when switching profiles with a large mod list like his. The 0.60 update was far too radical & completely destroyed many modders' mod setups/game installs in their entirety. I don't want to have to deal with that risk yet again, hence why I'm posting about not wanting to play Russian Roulette when it comes to updating NMM yet again.

  Quote

drscott11 wrote: It all sounds great until you actually try to use the feature and it breaks everything... I obey the KISS rule... With over 200 ESP's in my load order, and with some of my mods being over 1GB each, it takes a life-age for NMM to switch to another profile. I find it far easier and much less buggy to do it manually.... which still takes over 2hrs for a complete reinstall.

Also, NMM does not handle errors well and it's likely that it will freeze or crash while switching which is a waste of time and trashes your install.

  Quote

Crimsonhawk87 wrote: Yup, I just switched my Skyrim profile from my "adult" version to my son's much watered down version and it took a very loooong time to do that. And I still had to go back in and manually adjust a bunch of mods. I like the profile feature, as it let's my son play Skyrim (FO4 is a mature game for adults, so he's getting no where near that game anyways), but it still has some bugs that need ironing out....I can't even begin to imagine the chaos of trying to d/l and implement someone elses modded game.

With all of that negative said, I do like the idea of sharing mod profiles and I think the back up/snapshot idea is tremendous, it's just that I see major problems on the horizon if the core stuff isn't nailed down first.

i hope this doesn't come across as to thick but what does this entail? if it is a question of trying a single mod at a time on a fresh install of a game i think i can manage that.

[nightrifle1015]

Well I for one am VERY excited for these new features! Having tried and failed several times to get mod compilations to work properly without making my game unstable, this is exactly the kind of thing idiots like me need. :)