Boycott Beth.net

[Thumblesteen]

 

That and if you want to genuinely make mods into a profitable avenue, then you need to pay taxes. Which means you need to start a company. Which means you need to file tax forms and make annual reports. Which usually requires an accountant. Which on top of that requires a budget. Which then in turn requires revenue projections, and at that point you're basically running a game company so you might as well make your own products.

Except it requires none of this and we already had a working example of that in April of 2015. You're literally making stuff up.

 

 

Really? Show me any legal reference, anywhere, within UK/EU/US law, which states that all modding is exempt from declaring income when conducting commercial transactions unlike every single other enterprise. To declare income, you need to register as a company. Doesn't matter what business you run, or what product you sell, you need to register as a company. Because not only is income tax pretty much universal in most legal systems since the 1930's; There's also the possibility of VATs and sales taxes.

 

EDIT:

Also, to clarify how I'm not making this up. Aside from a quick Google search, I also asked my wife, who have worked both as a banker, and an accountant, to confirm this. She said that no matter what product you sell, however minute, you still need to declare income. Only way to declare this kind of income is through self-employment. Which means registering as a company. I too can confirm this since I have had my own company as well. I can even confirm it a third time, since I know a business lawyer who explained this to me very carefully. He was quite motivated to make me understand, since he served a four year prison sentence for breaking these kinds of rules.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Thumblesteen

[tartarsauce2]

well just make personal income without being a company or business lawyer then, problem solved
the law can't make you do what the law doesn't let you do :smile:

if they try just take over the UK and create an outer haven, problem solved
you're the law now, reality need not apply

Edited August 31, 2016 by tartarsauce2

[Arthmoor]

Really? Show me any legal reference, anywhere, within UK/EU/US law, which states that all modding is exempt from declaring income when conducting commercial transactions unlike every single other enterprise. To declare income, you need to register as a company. Doesn't matter what business you run, or what product you sell, you need to register as a company. Because not only is income tax pretty much universal in most legal systems since the 1930's; There's also the possibility of VATs and sales taxes.

You flat out don't know what you're talking about here. NONE of that was necessary AT ALL to sell mods on Valve's platform. They do not require you to register as an LLC.

 

The only thing they do, when the time comes, is mail you a 1099-C form telling you what was withheld from your sales and sent to the IRS. That's it. No, I'm not going to scan in my 1099-C to show you. Either you know I'm right or you're just here to spread entirely false information about how this worked once already.

 

tl;dr: You weren't there. You know nothing.

[Reneer]

According to Steam's Workshop setup, US-based contributors are supposed to receive a Form 1099-MISC. I imagine Arthmoor and others received a 1099-C due to the paid mods system getting the axe so quickly.

 

From the IRS point of view, people and entities who are filling a 1099-MISC form are often either individuals / sole proprietors or LLCs. Sole proprietors are technically not a business, as they are doing business as an individual and not a separate legal entity, thus the sole proprietor is responsible for all debts related to their business, because the individual and the business are one and the same. An LLC on the other hand is a separate legal entity from the individuals who run it, thus only the money contained within that LLC is in play if the LLC is sued or has debt.

 

Now, Thumblesteen is right on some points. Is it a good idea to create an LLC as a "freelancer" / mod author? Yes, because you separate the business from you as a person in terms of debt or being sued. Should you then have an accountant? Yes, because tax laws are funky and making mistakes can be costly. But from a technical standpoint you don't need those things if you want to go the sole proprietor / individual route and potentially roll the dice with the IRS / filing your taxes.

 

The part where Thumblesteen is most definitely wrong is where he jumps to "you're running a game company at that point, so you might as well make games instead". That's complete malarkey. It's like telling an auto mechanic that because he fixes cars all day long he should start making cars instead. It's complete false equivalence and the scope between making mods versus making videogames is vast. To make a successful mod you can be a scripter like me who can't make a box in Blender or a texture artist who doesn't want to touch Papyrus with a 10 foot pole. But to make a videogame as an individual you either need to be all the things or hire other people to do those things for you. And that's where the scope issue suddenly crops up big time.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Reneer

[steve40]

I can't speak for USA tax laws, but in Australia it all hinges upon whether your activity is considered to be a hobby or a business. There is a pivoting point where your hobby may be considered to be conducted to make a profit and you may need to register it as a business. So you guys are not necessarily right or wrong, it all depends on individual circumstances. You need to check with your accountant rather than rely on internet forums or limited personal knowledge.

[tartarsauce2]

I find it funny that people think that life actually revolves around being charged to breathe and fill out forms
sometimes other people like that harrass people, but they usually get canned for doing so because noone's interested in tolerating the pedantry and lifedestroying bureacracy required to nickel and dime every citizen on planet earth

Edited August 31, 2016 by tartarsauce2

[MasterMagnus]

Arthmoor is right, I receive a 1099-MISC, considered a private contractor.

 

Very easy to do as an individual with another job, a private person with no business name or anything of the sort, or as a person who was previously self employed.

 

**EDIT** in the USA at any rate.

Edited August 31, 2016 by MasterMagnus

[Arthmoor]

Er, yeah, it's a 1099-MISC. Not sure why I kept thinking 1099-C. Either way it had about 15% withheld for tax purposes. So it was already taken care of by the time I saw the money.

[Dark0ne]

You don't need to set up a company until it hits a certain threshold in the UK. You DO, however, need to still declare your income to the tax man irrespective of whether you do it as a business or it just goes straight in to your personal bank account. This income should and will be taxed, as all income is. Whether you actually declare it or not is your choice, but if you get audited, you'll have quite a horrible backdated tax bill if things go too far without the proper accounting being done.

 

I imagine it's the same in the US as well. Indeed, I see above that the tax was actually handled by Valve during the paid modding, so that's a bonus for the mod authors there. Takes the worry off of them.

[tartarsauce2]

it's the same in canada as well, which reminds me I'm going to be getting some increased income soon and need to bring it up to them
and there's forms on the tax forms thingies, I remember that much
it's under "other" or something, I'd imagine it's the same in the USA because it's basically a universal standard of expectation that one might gain some money on the side but not under the table

I think society would literally just go full black market and the gov't would fail almost instantly if they tried any other way
if I recall perhaps, that's why the soviet bloc malfunctioned so hard (the other stuff didn't help but it's existed in various forms all over the globe in different societies - it's the pure bureaufication of every aspect of life that makes people go around the official system)
this was a common issue in medieval times and they had various ways of dealing with it, but it wasn't fun for gov't officials

a certain movie and this music video's entire plot is derived from the relationship the taxman/collector aka "the man" had with the locals in their respective regions had in reality
model village contests, PROBABLY derive from value assessments for the king and queen's taxation purposes, from the medieval times, the census is another form of measurement for these things, which is where audits come into play
taxation also caused the american revolution, taxation is srs buziness and actually one of those areas where contentions blow up almost instantly lol on the slightest of things (because it's literally someone demanding money you made for some abstract purpose not even "we're gonna get weapons and fight against the horde that threatens your farm" or anything but random everyday stuff you don't know about)

Edited September 1, 2016 by tartarsauce2