"wah, wah- I want money" post on Gamasutra

[Reneer]

Ah. I see. So you're arguing that because Bethesda doesn't have those pre-production costs that mod authors should get a higher percentage. Got it. My counter to that is simple: Mod authors are using Bethesda's IP. Without the use / license of that IP, mod authors would have nothing to mod.

 

Furthermore, we don't know what services Bethesda will offer mod authors who do chose to sell their work. They could, theoretically, offer the same kind of services that, say, Amazon does with their publishing services.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Reneer

[crawe1x]

 

 

 

 

What does Beth do for the Mod Creator?

.. Answer: Nothing.

Beth has ZERO Pre / Post -Costs for the Mod Creator to produce their Mod. Beth invests not 1 penny.

The most spectacularly dumb thing I have read this week.

 

 

Well lelcat, the most spectacularly dumb thing I've read this week is your comment. I mean, seriously, someone comes up with an intelligent and well reasoned argument, and your only response is a smug insult with no further explanation? C'mon that's just weak, not to mention disrespectful. By all means, disagree with him and argue the case against him. There are too many of these lazy responses - either say something worthwhile or keep quiet.

 

I think Reneer sat both of you down.

 

 

No. Not at all. He's taking part in an interesting debate, as is jjb54. Now enough of your trolling :rolleyes:

[jjb54]

Ah. I see. So you're arguing that because Bethesda doesn't have those pre-production costs that mod authors should get a higher percentage. Got it. My counter to that is simple: Mod authors are using Bethesda's IP. Without the use / license of that IP, mod authors would have nothing to mod.

 

Furthermore, we don't know what services Bethesda will offer mod authors who do chose to sell their work. They could, theoretically, offer the same kind of services that, say, Amazon does with their publishing services.

 

Well again - Beth has stated that the MOD CREATORS CREATIONS ARE THE MOD CREATORS IP.

 

So which is it? .. See Below of EUA.

 

See the point being is, the percentage of Books - Records and such, all have serious Pre-Costs that MUST BE RECOUPED, or they go broke, real fast.

 

So that is the full Justification - Logic - Reasons for the higher Percentage costs. So you are at least seeing the difference and why those " Rationales ", do not even remotely 'work here'.

 

Now if you want to go on just the IP reasons, then fine, and IF you are good with Beth taking the major portion of the MOD Creators hard work, that is your's to have.

 

But the bottom line is:

 

The "book" - "record" and such analogy simply does not work in this situation, because it is very much "apples and oranges". They are not even remotely in the same category of real $$ costs versus the argument of IP "rights".

 

Which again - there seems to be a very fine line on the IP argument as well:

 

 

 

2. GAME MODS; OWNERSHIP AND LICENSE TO ZENIMAX

A. Ownership. As between You and ZeniMax, You are the owner of Your Game Mods and all intellectual property rights therein, subject to the licenses You grant to ZeniMax in this Agreement. You will not permit any third party to download, distribute or use Game Mods developed or created by You for any commercial purpose.

B. Notice on Game Mods. All Game Mods must indicate that ZeniMax is not the author of the Game Mods with additional language that "THIS MATERIAL IS NOT MADE, GUARANTEED OR SUPPORTED BY ZENIMAX OR ITS AFFILIATES."

C. ZeniMax Game Mod Platforms. You may submit Your Game Mods to one or more of ZeniMax’s platforms as designated or authorized by ZeniMax (collectively, "ZeniMax Platforms").

You understand and agree that ZeniMax may, but is not required under this Agreement to, validate, review, evaluate, test or screen Your Game Mods, whether or not You make the Game Mods available to ZeniMax for further distribution by ZeniMax by way of a ZeniMax Platform.

You understand and agree that ZeniMax does not sponsor or endorse any Game Mods and You may not state or imply otherwise.

If You submit a copy of Your Game Mods to ZeniMax, You agree that ZeniMax may, in its sole discretion, make the Game Mods available for download and use by others, including downloads from the ZeniMax Platforms. Game Mods listed in a ZeniMax Platform can be viewed and downloaded by anyone that has received a license from ZeniMax to the Product.

You understand and agree that ZeniMax is not obligated to use, distribute, make available or continue to distribute or make available Your Game Mods on any ZeniMax Platform or otherwise and ZeniMax may, in its sole discretion, restrict access to or remove Your Game Mods from any ZeniMax Platform for any reason or no reason at all. TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW, ZENIMAX DOES NOT ASSUME ANY RESPONSIBILITY OR LIABILITY FOR GAME MODS OR FOR THE REMOVAL OF ANY GAME MODS OR FOR ANY FAILURE TO OR DELAY IN REMOVING, ANY GAME MODS.

In addition, manufacturers of consoles, including without limitation Sony and Microsoft, may refuse to allow individuals to download or use certain Game Mods on the consoles that they manufacture or sell.

You may also elect to remove Game Mods from a ZeniMax Platform. If You do so, ZeniMax will no longer make such Game Mods available on such ZeniMax Platform. Notwithstanding the foregoing You agree that (a) ZeniMax may retain a copy of such Game Mods and ZeniMax is not required to delete or destroy all copies of the Game Mods, (b) ZeniMax retains the other rights and licenses granted by You to ZeniMax in this Agreement with respect to such Game Mods, and © Your removal will not affect the rights of any individual who has already downloaded a copy of the Game Mods from such ZeniMax Platform.

[lokiCML]

While there is a fixed cost to Bethesda because the article states it would be curated. Meeting there would be somebody there approving the mod or not according to terms of service/agreement. Like Amazon e-publishing services illegal check would have to be done. There are other costs that have to be paid.

 

For example:

• Administrative (Lawyers/Para-Legals [Check for Copyrights, Plagiarism, etc.], technologists, Community Manager(s), etc.)
• CDN (Content Delivery Network for fast and reliable downloading that cost money on a per download basis.)
• Storage (Mods have to live somewhere cost money)
• Website (Hosting, etc.)
• Creation Kit and other related things (Costs money)

That is some of the costs that they will incur. A 25 - 40% cut or around that seems reasonable to me. Bethesda has to recover the costs somehow. More importantly this would allow some waters to do it professionally as their full-time job. I would love to see this occur. :cool:

Edited August 5, 2016 by lokiCML

[Reneer]

 

Ah. I see. So you're arguing that because Bethesda doesn't have those pre-production costs that mod authors should get a higher percentage. Got it. My counter to that is simple: Mod authors are using Bethesda's IP. Without the use / license of that IP, mod authors would have nothing to mod.

 

Furthermore, we don't know what services Bethesda will offer mod authors who do chose to sell their work. They could, theoretically, offer the same kind of services that, say, Amazon does with their publishing services.

Well again - Beth has stated that the MOD CREATORS CREATIONS ARE THE MOD CREATORS IP.

 

So which is it? .. See Below of EUA.

 

See the point being is, the percentage of Books - Records and such, all have serious Pre-Costs that MUST BE RECOUPED, or they go broke, real fast.

 

So that is the full Justification - Logic - Reasons for the higher Percentage costs. So you are at least seeing the difference and why those " Rationales ", do not even remotely 'work here'.

 

Now if you want to go on just the IP reasons, then fine, and IF you are good with Beth taking the major portion of the MOD Creators hard work, that is your's to have.

 

But the bottom line is:

 

The "book" - "record" and such analogy simply does not work in this situation, because it is very much "apples and oranges". They are not even remotely in the same category of real $$ costs versus the argument of IP "rights".

 

Which again - there seems to be a very fine line on the IP argument as well:

You keep saying that electronic book publishing and paid mods are "apples and oranges" when they are clearly very similar. Individual authors create their work and publish through Amazon. Individual mod authors create their work and publish through Bethesda.net. Amazon has some costs associated with hosting and maintaining electronic books and distributing those books. Bethesda has some costs associated with hosting and maintaining mods and distributing them to users. So far they sound rather similar to me.

 

Where things differ between Amazon and Bethesda.net right now is that Amazon allows for authors to sell their work while Bethesda.net does not. But both Amazon and Bethesda.net have ongoing costs that need to be paid - Amazon has to host and distribute books, while Bethesda.net has to host and distribute mods. But Bethesda.net is not currently making any money for Bethesda because no mod author can sell their work, thus Bethesda.net as a business expenditure is losing money because they host literally thousands of mods for free and distribute those mods for free.

 

Both Bethesda.net and Amazon promote particular mods and books, respectively. Bethesda.net shows people visiting the site which mods are most popular overall and for each different mod section, while Amazon does a similar thing. You can search both sites to find mods / books that you want via keywords. You can comment / write reviews on books / mods.

 

The only major differences that I can see between Amazon and Bethesda.net are the scale of their operations and, perhaps, the ability of Amazon to check for plagiarism. Outside of that they seem rather similar to me overall. I would be ecstatic for Bethesda to bring back paid mods at a 25/75 percentage split or better.

[jjb54]

WILL RE-WRITE. Something got deleted as it was posted.

[Arthmoor]

So sorry, I understand what you are trying to say. But you are ignoring the very real costs of the PRODUCTION of said Digital / Physical Product.

I find it ironic that if you substitute the word "game mod" for "book" in your "counter example" that it would fit perfectly, because, well, it's the reality of it. They're even in the same class for copyright purposes.

 

Bethesda's pre-production cost is developing the game you're modifying. Their post-production cost is the infrastructure for the digital storefront you'll be selling through. They aren't going to let you have license to touch their stuff without being compensated for it. Without their consent and approval, you get 0%, because there is no such thing as a wholly original work that uses their IP.

[minngarm]

Ah. I see. So you're arguing that because Bethesda doesn't have those pre-production costs that mod authors should get a higher percentage. Got it. My counter to that is simple: Mod authors are using Bethesda's IP. Without the use / license of that IP, mod authors would have nothing to mod.

 

Furthermore, we don't know what services Bethesda will offer mod authors who do chose to sell their work. They could, theoretically, offer the same kind of services that, say, Amazon does with their publishing services.

A IP at most is worth 5% maaaybe 10% if its huge like star wars. I don't see any valid reason why beth would be able to claim more.

[jjb54]

I have to take a 'break' from this.

 

I just got a call from a very long time friend that got the news he has cancer and is given a short time to live.

 

On a personal note:

 

I grew up enjoying good debates and even heated ones. But as my Jr. High Coach stated.

 

"When the debate is over, it is over. Do not take it personally or emotionally. It was a debate for the fun and enjoyment of the debate and LEARNING from others."

 

I have enjoyed the give and take and understand that - I do not take this personally. I did enjoy very much learning and reading the other side.

 

Thanks! ... Jj ...

[Reneer]

A IP at most is worth 5% maaaybe 10% if its huge like star wars. I don't see any valid reason why beth would be able to claim more.

The IP itself may be only 'worth' 5-10% (where are you getting those numbers?), but Bethesda also creates the tools and assets we need to modify the game. And they also code the very system into the game that allows for relatively easy modification. So while I would love to see a ratio greater than 25/75, I'm not altogether certain that Bethesda will see it that way. At most I imagine it would be a 50/50 split, but honestly that's just me daydreaming.

 

I have to take a 'break' from this.

 

I just got a call from a very long time friend that got the news he has cancer and is given a short time to live.

 

On a personal note:

 

I grew up enjoying good debates and even heated ones. But as my Jr. High Coach stated.

 

"When the debate is over, it is over. Do not take it personally or emotionally. It was a debate for the fun and enjoyment of the debate and LEARNING from others."

 

I have enjoyed the give and take and understand that - I do not take this personally. I did enjoy very much learning and reading the other side.

 

Thanks! ... Jj ...

Spend all the time you can with your friend. And know that there is always hope. I know several people who had very serious (Stage IV) cancers and are still here today because of successful treatment. Edited August 5, 2016 by Reneer