Skyrim isn't dumbed down. Purists are.

[uruku7]

I played the hell out of Oblivion and I have no idea what people are saying in regards to the +5's and maxing everything and number watching. I did whatever was fun, and I beat it all.

 

Rocks and mushrooms and small monsters don't matter. It was the story and immersion, politics, history and religion and corruption that gave it depth. For me, anyway. Skyrim has most of that, but presented in a very generic manner, where nothing you do matters much.

Edited November 28, 2011 by uruku7

[Sabatasso]

You didn't understand what I'm saying because you assume that I'm advocating for the absence of any system or rules in favour of some pure form of roleplaying. That is simply not true.

 

I'm in favour of a system that doesn't get in the way of roleplaying the way Oblivion did with all the powergaming required to play through the game. In other words the rules are there to help with roleplaying and not to hinder it.

 

I'm considering things from a designer's perspective. Skills are enough to make the system work. I've never said I wanted to remove ALL the numbers. That's a gross oversimplification of what I've been saying.

 

Or in the words of a wise man:

 

“Perfection is achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away” – Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

 

That's a sound principle.

 

In the context of an RPG, stats are only useful for what they bring to the game. They have no intrinsic value.

 

Your ever returning punch line that Oblivion has to be played with a powergamer perspective is just wrong. I never did such a thing in Oblivion, and I did not find the game particularly hard.

 

I am not saying I liked the "AI level up with you" system, but it was hardly unbeatable even if you just walked around and chose levelup points more or less random.

 

In Skyrim, from a RPG point of view, most characters looks well into their 30's if you haven't modded the chargen. I find it rather absurd that I can't choose to have learned some basic sneak or magic skills as a Nord after living for some 25-30 years. Classes aren't a hindrance, they are an asset. And also, in Oblivion it's nothing that hinders an Orc Bararian from becoming the best mage in the "world", despite it being a class based system.

 

In the current Skyrim system, all Nords are just copies of each other when the game starts, and you have to actively overdo the "class molding" in order to become anything like you want. THAT is powergaming, or micromanagement in my eyes.

 

Another thing that is clearly dumbed down, and it may also apply to other games by Bethesda for all I know, but if you have half a clue about what you're doing, you can gather enough materials to get 20-30 skillups in smithing right out of the tutorial. There are several mines and iron deposits out in the open right where you start. Leather straps can be made from all the wolves you have to steamroll as you gather the recourses. Easily enough to make a whole lot of Iron Daggers, and give a massive boost to the gear you're already using. Also, there are gold lying around everywhere, so money is never really an issue.

 

It's all so simple, and you never get a sense of achievement for gaining upgraded gear, or gaining a level.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Sabatasso

[EviloMEN]

I agree screw purists; guns and gnomes in the next elder scrolls game.

[Nocens]

Me, I don’t much care for the expression 'dumbed down'. It’s such a personal thing. For me, Morrowind is one of my all-time favourite games. I worshipped that game, and at the time, spent a mad amount of hours playing, and playing, and playing. I loved vanilla Morrowind SO much and I loved it even more when it was modded.

 

I didn’t like Oblivion much at all. I couldn’t stand the main quest and the Oblivion gates bugged the hell out of me. I only enjoyed the game after excessive modding and even then, I didn’t put even a fifth of the hours into it that I did with Morrowind. In fact, I didn’t even finish it. I never played it through with a single character, and I think I only had two characters compared to the much greater number I played with in Morrowind.

 

Notice I’ve not talked about skill points and inventory at all. That’s because those things aren’t very important to me. I play a game for the experience, whether that’s a very complex experience or not. I can just say that Morrowind had a joy of exploration, of finding new things, of wandering off the beaten path and I didn’t at all get that sense from Oblivion.

 

Now, enter Skyrim – and sure, there are things I might want to change but like Morrowind, I adore it un-modded too. I have that joy back, of sneaking around the countryside just finding things. Of wandering from one edge of the map to the other and just letting the world wash over me, and it’s been an almost poetic experience. Could I have enjoyed more spells? More skill points? Sure – but in the end I don’t care. That was never any of the reasons why I played Morrowind. I played Morrowind because it drew me in and kept me trapped, and Skyrim has done the same.

 

What I’m saying is – I’m sure that for some people, Skyrim isn’t as enjoyable as Morrowind was, but maybe what people should say is that there are things missing that they wish were still here rather than insulting the game as a whole or the people who love it. There are also things in Skyrim that weren’t in Morrowind. For me, it evens out. For others it doesn’t. But dumbed down?

 

In my case, I don’t need to compare, don’t need to say this or this is better or worse than Morrowind and go through whatever details I liked better there or here. They are both my favourite games in a long, long time. I find Skyrim a huge improvement over Oblivion. For me.

 

I’m sorry for those who lost spells and things they loved. That can’t be fun. I guess it’s just hard to relate because that was such a minor part of why I loved Morrowind.

[domanz]

Well said nocens, I'm feeling the same 100%. Though I enjoyed just exploring in Oblivion, it was so unrewarding. Mind, I'm not talking about finding awesome lootz everywhere. I am already happy if the landscape changes, if I find a corpse with a small story written in the diary on it, or if some little hidden lake pops up with a nice island in it. I had that feeling in Morrowind, and now with Skyrim, it is back. I very much liked Oblivion at it's time, but even though it had many flaws. like all the other ES games I played, it managed to out-range them with awesomeness in other areas.

 

EDIT: Regarding the comment about Midas Magic: Yeah I used that mod, and it was the mod that saved mages from boredom, I admit. I wish they would have added some spells in that manner, or even spellcrafting in a similar way. Heck, we now even have crafting materials for weapon users, why not let mages use them too for spellcrafting, gold, silver and some alchemical ingredients? Here, I have to admit that there is a lot of room for improvement, I guess they just cut their resources short to produce other games and that hurts a little. On the other hand it should be obvious that if they put that much focus into magic as midas magic did, they would have needed to do the same for other classes, and that would have been a giant endeavor. But there could have easily been more.

Edited November 28, 2011 by domanz

[Taedus]

I agree that Skyrim is a bit simplified and directed at the bigger mass but it's still a wonderful game. That they made one-hand and two-hand skills instead of blade and blunt is an improvement in my opinion. Either you're the type who likes quick and small weapons or you like more powerful two-handers. This way we can have more variation between weapon choices. Let's say I find a good one handed axe and now I can use that even if I only used swords before. It's the same motion when swinging them, so can't say it's not realistic.

 

I miss some stats a bit like agility and willpower but int is the same as magicka and health is the same as endurance so I can't really say they are needed. Games are usually dumbed down when initially made for console but there are a few exceptions out there.

[Peekaboom]

Live another life, in another world.

 

Thats been the philosophical approach (at least on paper) to the TES games, and I contend that Beth applied that same philosophy to Fallout 3 and New Vegas as well.

 

Unfortunately there appears to be a lot of disagreement about how to best reach that goal of immersion in another world. Some contend that it is preferable to diminish the importance of stats/numbers (i.e. classic hard-crunchy RPG stuff) so it doesnt get in the way of the experience. Others contend that the stats/numbers make it more immersive because your characters can be more specialized/unique (aiding the role-playing elements) and that attribute/skill levels create immersive limits to your abilities. This is of course a matter of individual preference.

 

And certainly Oblivion + Morrowind drew criticisms on the leveling system from both sides of the fence, as the systems lent themselves to being gamed in order to min-max your character. Whether this was necessary to do is yet another matter of preference (I myself played quite easily through both games without powergaming my character).

 

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But what disappoints me most about Bethesdas trends is the lack of ingenuity shown in the evolution of the design and the game mechanics itself.

 

Modders had fixed most of the leveling issues (see the plethora of smooth leveling mods) in Oblivion + Morrowind in ways that combined the best of both worlds … high immersion (i.e. I can just play the game and not worry about having to game my skills) while still retaining character specialization and depth. But apparently the easier design solution was just to lobotomize the advancement mechanics.

 

Similar lobotomies seem to appear to be made in other arenas, including fewer weapon skills, less unique enhancing options, no spell crafting, smaller set of magical effects, etc. etc… Its pretty hard to come up with any justification for these changes in lieu of more ingenious solutions beyond appealing to a wider range of potential buyers while minimizing development time. Interestingly, the current success of the TES franchise was built on games that were ultimately more crunchy and hardcore than the games are now.

 

What I find surprising is that New Vegas, developed by Obsidian primarily and not Bethesda, DID have more innovations in the base gameplay. It is pretty obvious to anyone heavy into Fallout3 modding that many 3rd party mods were incorporated, in spirit, into New Vegas. They even included a hardcore mode for people who wanted a more immersive experience that required them to think more about things like eating, sleeping, weight, etc.

 

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Bethesda has always been masters at building another world. The storylines, the landscapes/scenery, the design of the world, etc. has always been top-notch, and I think thats what keeps people coming back to their games. But the underlying gameplay mechanics have been transitioning over the course of their games to be more streamlined and frankly present players with less choice. And that is the heart of the my worry about the direction of the franchise.

 

Choice, for many gamers, and particularly fans of sandbox games, is critical to their enjoyment. To qualify choice, the choices presented to player have to be interesting and they have to have a significant impact on the outcome of an action and/or on the gameworld itself.

 

The choice between learning to use an axe or a sword should be interesting and have an impact on how I have to actually play the game and the tactics I employ in combat. The choice between taking one factions side over another should have significant consequences on the gameworld and how the plot unfolds. If I go down one path, it may mean I cant go down the other path later. There isnt really a choice between light vs. heavy armor if when I get high heavy armor skill the weight and sneak penalties are eliminated.

 

For me, choice adds greatly to the replay value and immersion of the game. Folks have berated the more class centric system of prior TES games, but the choice of going in one class or another creates a different game experience, opening up some courses of actions and closing others. And even then, you can still choose to train up other skills. If Im a fighter and I want to learn to use magic, why not allow me to go off into the woods and shoot fireballs at tree stumps for hours on end until I get good at it? Thats my choice and the choice exists.

 

Ideally, choice manifests at a large scale (i.e. what quest lines are open to me, what quest rewards are given out) as well as at the small scale (i.e. how do I deal with this encounter). Morrowind did a good job with this. Your choice of skills/specialization had a huge impact on what guilds you could join, how far you could advance, etc. You actually had to be really good at magic to become the master of the mage guild. Imagine that. Few things are more immersion breaking (for me) than being able to do a few quests and become the master of a guild while at a pitifully low level.

 

Implicit in having choice in a game is the need to actually think about what decision to make. By removing choice the game has removed the need to think. At that point, one is really following along a scripted series of events, with curious diversions along the way, but with no genuine interaction and influence on the game world. From my perspective, this crosses the line from being a sandbox-RPG to being an Action-Adventure game. But whos splitting hairs over this right?

 

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I havent yet played Skyrim, although Im sure I will. As others have mentioned, its unfortunate that so many feel the game has to be modded to get the kind of experience out of the game they desire. I cant help but feeling that the amount of modding needed with each successive game grows larger and larger.

 

At the same time, the available avenues for modding gameplay mechanics seem to get smaller and smaller. With the Steam requirements and controlled executable, it may be that no Script Extender can exist for Skyrim, which would be a huge blow to the modding community that greatly limits what is possible. Likewise, by removing attributes and further reducing the number of skills that are hardcoded, even fewer pathways exist for tweaking the mechanics via mods.

 

As an old-school gamer, I do feel a bit like a dying breed. The number of games that require thinking and present real challenges these days is dwindling. That isnt to say games are bad or not fun, they are just different and are intended to appeal to a broader demographic. I just wish Bethesda wouldnt forget its roots and the kind of gameplay experiences that got them where they are today.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Peekaboom

[adman85]

However you want to put it, the elder scrolls series character creation and leveling up systems have been been getting streamlined, i mean look at the crazy crap in Daggerfall, the level of customization is ridiculous.

 

As time has gone on, that kind of depth has been exchanged for an "easier to play" system, with glossier effects..

 

But that's just how things go I guess.

 

Exchange depth and size for graphics and an easily playable (or easily marketable) system for almost all ages.

 

I don't really get how that works though, size wise, of course, that's obvious, but why change a working system at all? If we're talking about the change from morrowind to oblivion, why even remove those couple of skills? Surely they didn't need the 5kb of information it took up for more graphics..

 

I personally like the more complex games when it comes to character development, and from what I've seen from skyrim (basically using a "perks" system, similar to fallout) they really have done it again.

 

But yeah, matter of opinion, so, if you want something that looks really spiffy and is easy to play, go for skyrim, if you want more diversity and depth in character development go for morrowind.

 

By the way ALL of the ES games leave space to become a "power character" if one chooses.. But I find that power players will make power characters in any game with options. ;D

[Goliath978]

^^^

It has no classes and other stats THAT streamlined oblivion and morrowind. No classes and stats in character gen make for a more free playing. Sure you don't put a label on it and say "I'm a ......" but it's all still doable...without an official seal.

 

And the NPC's have more depth. There's marriage and companionship and so much. Al hough I do feel a loss of dialogue over morrowind, most of that dialogue was just a stretch of what could've been said in a few sentences like in Skyrim. Oblivion's npc system was absolutely lifeless however.

[Bloodinfested]

^^^

It has no classes and other stats THAT streamlined oblivion and morrowind. No classes and stats in character gen make for a more free playing. Sure you don't put a label on it and say "I'm a ......" but it's all still doable...without an official seal.

 

 

Classes are in skyrim just done differently in morrowind or oblivion you pick a class in a menu witch also had associated skills with it. So class is based off a set of skills used its true you can just use anything in skyrim but you also can do it in morrowind and oblivion too. The difference in class in skyrim is the perks you pick witch will define your class. In both tes 3 and 4 you got one perk automatically in a skill at 25,50,75 and 100 and you could do this with every skill witch really broke the hole class system imo