The US justice system.

[ginnyfizz]

Having been poor to the point of having to beg food from friends, having utilities cut off (yes, even the water) and having a home repossessed (this was some years ago), currently unemployed and broke, and having most recently worked among the poor ie long term unemployed, I find the suggestion that they are, as a whole, more likely to turn to crime both insulting, not borne out by my experience, and also over simplistic.

 

I personally have not had even a single speeding ticket to my name. Most of my clients in my last job didn't either. I did specialise in the hard cases who DID have a criminal record and these formed a small minority of my case load. A very tiny minority were career criminals who fell out with the idea of honest labour at an early age, but were happy enough to also claim welfare, so were inclined to recidivism. (And of course they were not truly poor, one of them turned up for meetings in a Range Rover). There were those who it was difficult to find employment for because they had committed really serious crimes and there was a large gap on their CV that screamed "Guest of Her Majesty", but had decided "Never again" and stuck to it. There were also my drug addicts. Yes, weed IS harmful. These dudes were so spaced out they could hardly get out of bed in the morning. No-one would give them any job that involved driving a vehicle, or fork truck, or operating machinery. The smack and coke addicts even less so.

 

So it was actually the habitual drug abusers where the correlation between poverty and crime was most likely to be found. Certainly in the UK it is far from being the norm, and I suspect it is the same in the US. The assumption of a general correlation between poverty and crime labels the poor and gives them more problems when they have enough already.

 

I don't support the legalization of drugs since I don't believe that it would solve any of the existing problems involved with drug trafficking, it could in fact lead to worse problems - you would still get the same criminal gangs involved in the supply - you don't seriously think they'd let go of what was going to be an even more lucrative than ever market, do you?

 

Meanwhile some articles about the less benign side of weed;-

 

Medical dangers of marijuana

 

Cannabis and psychosis

 

The second article you have to scroll down a bit to get to the meat of it.

[grannywils]

Very well said, Ginny. Have to think on it awhile before I can truly respond, but I enjoyed reading your post, as usual

[Lisnpuppy]

This really seems to be an issue of victimless crimes. Someone injecting heroine into his arm and sleeping on his matress at home is NOT a crime, just stupid behaviour.

One must assume your exposure to heroin addicts is limited then because they always run out of money, friends, jobs etc and eventually will do anything for the next 'fix' which means that crime is the most likely avenue for quick revenue. Hardly a victim less addiction.

 

Though this is about the justice system...I wanted to chime in that I support legalizing drugs and believe the criminal justice system is trying to push that boulder uphill only to have it fall over the other side. I worked for many years in a long-term and short-term rehab facility for addicts (from alcohol, MJ to heroine) and though there are many crimes associated with drug use....many are not worthy of considerable jail time until the actual sellers/dealers are involved. The money being spent incarcerating those for possession and the like could be better spent on treating drug abuse and dependence and the mental health issues that often lead to drug use in the first place.

Legalizing all drugs is akin to legalizing 200 proof grain alcohol just because scotch isn't so bad, have little problem with legalizing marijuana but that is a far cry from legalizing heroin or cocaine. The former group is relatively harmless that latter categories are definitely so.

 

" Societies whose vices outweigh their virtues are not sustainable." -Gibbons-The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire

 

I could also mention the same book and its detailed reasoning of Christianity being a major reason for the fall of Rome.

 

I have yet to meet an addict who did not use due to the possible judicial ramifications that it may entail. Those who would use then use now and if legalized, things like dependence could be better treated where now many, MANY do not receive it due to funding. Also regulation could provide better and cleaner needles and mental health services and I will not mention the entire bottom dropping out of the drug trade. I stand by my statement.

[Ghogiel]

Dismissing poverty being linked to crime might need more than a piece of anecdotal evidence. From neighbourhood crime statistics, to inmate statistics, All the data links them.

[HeyYou]

ANY drug/substance is bad for you if abused. (Contrary to seeming popular opinion, not every pot smoke is a drug abuser. I have yet to meet anyone that was "addicted" to pot either. I have, however, encountered numerous alcoholics.) This applies just as much to Aspirin, as it does to heroin. (I would point out that heroin is just another derivative of opium, just like morphine......) Yes, some folks abuse drugs, whether they be legal or not. How much money does alcohol cost in health care, legal costs, and loss of life EVERY year. It's still legal. Pot? A fraction of the cost from that aspect, but, they make up for it with the 'war on drugs'. An unwinnable war if there ever was one. So long as their is a demand, there WILL be a supply. Instead of wasting billions every year trying to stop something that simply CANNOT be stopped, legalize it, regulate it, tax it. Just like alcohol.

[Aurielius]

<snip>

So it was actually the habitual drug abusers where the correlation between poverty and crime was most likely to be found. Certainly in the UK it is far from being the norm, and I suspect it is the same in the US. The assumption of a general correlation between poverty and crime labels the poor and gives them more problems when they have enough already.

 

I don't support the legalization of drugs since I don't believe that it would solve any of the existing problems involved with drug trafficking, it could in fact lead to worse problems - you would still get the same criminal gangs involved in the supply - you don't seriously think they'd let go of what was going to be an even more lucrative than ever market, do you?

<snip>

I agree, in my subjective experience the 'poor' I have known had more ethics than the wealthy and more chances to put their ethics to the test, nothing like crucible of adversity to test one's true mettle. As for the Pot smokers, well it's social Darwinism ..they will be taken out of the gene pool due to their proclivities.

[Ghogiel]

. As for the Pot smokers, well it's social Darwinism ..they will be taken out of the gene pool due to their proclivities.

The breeding pool doesn't work like that I don't think, isn't the trend that poor procreate more than the affluent professionals do? I thought it was all dead beat guys and chavs having all the babies.. with the cider in one hand and the doobie in the other.. :tongue:

[grannywils]

Not surprisingly, I find this thread a bit too all encompassing to address realistically as one topic. The prison system; the war on drugs and the justice system are without a doubt three entirely separate subjects. Although they end up intertwining in many cases, they each have their own individual issues requiring attention.

 

However, the OP has in his own infinite wisdom elected to post this as one topic. I will make a feeble attempt at providing my thoughts on the subjects as best I can.

 

I believe that the prison system in the U.S. is broken primarily due to the fact that the Justice System has become something of a joke, and it too is broken. So, in that sense, those two are related. We no longer treat crime as crime or criminals as crimanals. We bargain and play word games with one lawyer and/or judge determining which defendant or plaintiff is best suited to "win" in a given circumstance. A felony is no longer a felony; a misdemenor is no longer a misdemenor, etc., etc. We now bargain charges down to fit what the lawyers feel they can get their clients off with, or the plaintiff's lawyers feel they can win the case with. It is no longer a matter of "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime". Many repeat offenders know full well the inner workings of the justice system better than anyone else does.

 

In this country, if there was a "real" war on drugs, we would have won it a long time ago. My belief is now and always has been, that our government prefered that a certain subset of the population have access to drugs in order to keep them dependent and in poverty. Unfortunately, quite sometime ago, that plan backfired when other portions of the population discovered drugs too, and wanted in on the fun. All of a sudden we had "party" druggies. The problem was, that they became addicts too. Marajuana was no longer sufficient. Harder drugs looked pretty interesting too. Now we have a serious drug problem that runs rampant throughout the whole population of this Nation, and it is no longer so easy to fix.

 

We have many who say, let's make drugs legal. Some say, just MJ. Others say all drugs. Still others say no drugs should be legal. Who decides what is right. Everyone has an agenda. And anyone who denys that is a fool or a liar. We tried to make alcohol illegal, and that proved to be a disaster. In my opinion, alcohol can be just as dangerous as many of the drugs out there. For that matter, cigarettes are addictive and harmful. So where do we draw the line.

 

After all my blathering on, I am here to tell you that I do not have an answer. I do believe in freedom. By the same token, I also believe in certain limitations on unsafe products. Regulations on the production of potentially harmful drugs exist today, and should continue to exist, in my opinion. Perhaps there is some compromise that lies in that direction. I am really not sure.

 

In any event, that was my attempt at addressing all three of the subjects in this thread...

[Lisnpuppy]

Don't forget those addicted to prescription meds, Granny! Just to add another line to your well-written post.

[TheFourthHorse]

 

Why put trust in the government to properly help addicts after a arrest then?

 

Also what about alcohol? Alcohol is a hard drug as well.

 

Because they are not governmentally run organizations for one… they are almost always privately run like alcohol rehab facilities. Secondly there is no reason not to trust them IF it’s supported enthusiastically by the people. They have nothing to lose by getting people off drugs and alcohol (unless you count funding which they only ever cut to make people happy)

 

I know the problem we have in my county with our DUI rehab program is that they’re putting it in the hands of the politicians and an incompetent judge who just keeps sending people back who don’t keep to the program. It’s become a scapegoat and a joke to keep connected people out of prison and has nobody qualified (such as county human resources) to oversee it.

 

Alcohol IS a hard drug and I know it all too well. My mother was and still is a suicidal alcoholic who stole our money and ran the family into bankruptcy. If it wasn’t for the fear of prison and being left out of the family she would have continued her destructive path but thankfully she has stopped drinking. While she still struggles with depression and will ALWAYS be an alcoholic, her nights in prison, weeks of rehab, and those awful halfway homes scared her strait. If I had it my way, alcohol would be wiped off the face of the Earth but I’m a realist and I know it can’t change. That’s why I say drugs like marijuana are harmless in comparison and would legalize it outright for logic’s sake at least.

 

You may not believe it but the system does work from time to time and saves lives. I see the issue as an often corrupt and broken government which is divided and governed by two extremist sides who would drive the country into the ground if either had their way. Now it seems that the moderates are giving up hope or just stopped caring and I don’t blame them… even the people are starting to take extreme sides for fear of death penalties for kids and tax cuts for the rich or heroin at CVS and the government taking away the right to bear arms.

 

You want to legalize a little weed? I’m all behind you. You want to legalize something as deadly as heroin… in a time of a depression… where jobless rates are at all time highs… where a crippling drug problem already exists? I say no… we need less people trying to forget and more people trying to remember where the real problem is.