Why Trump Won

[HeyYou]

@HeyYou

 

I took a very active interest in everything this year.

 

These were not the droids I was looking for.

Ain't that the truth. :)

 

He's not even waiting until he's in office to forget about his campaign promises, overnight we went from a border wall to a border fence. According to the article this represents a "softening" of Trump's immigration policy.

 

"I'm good at this."

 

http://www.kitco.com/news/2016-11-14/Trump-Shapes-White-House-Hires-Establishment-Figure-Firebrand.html

 

If Trump was supposed to be the change candidate I think we'll have to keep searching for one. At least people now understand who the actual drivers are in illegal immigration in the U.S., and it's not Democrats.

Fence, wall, whatever. The idea is to make it more difficult for illegals to come into the country. Just walking across some line on a map isn't really much of a deterrent. A fence will help, especially if it is monitored. (sensors, cameras, whathaveyou, and then people to respond to alarms......)

 

We only had a fence around our weapons storage area when I was in the service. And we had a pretty good sized collection of nuclear weapons behind it. Of course it was monitored/patrolled 24/7/365, and the border fence should be as well. Maybe have some of those troops we will be bringing home to keep track of it.

[TheMastersSon]

 

@HeyYou

 

I took a very active interest in everything this year.

 

These were not the droids I was looking for.

Ain't that the truth. :smile:

 

He's not even waiting until he's in office to forget about his campaign promises, overnight we went from a border wall to a border fence. According to the article this represents a "softening" of Trump's immigration policy.

 

"I'm good at this."

 

http://www.kitco.com/news/2016-11-14/Trump-Shapes-White-House-Hires-Establishment-Figure-Firebrand.html

 

If Trump was supposed to be the change candidate I think we'll have to keep searching for one. At least people now understand who the actual drivers are in illegal immigration in the U.S., and it's not Democrats.

Fence, wall, whatever. The idea is to make it more difficult for illegals to come into the country. Just walking across some line on a map isn't really much of a deterrent. A fence will help, especially if it is monitored. (sensors, cameras, whathaveyou, and then people to respond to alarms......)

 

We only had a fence around our weapons storage area when I was in the service. And we had a pretty good sized collection of nuclear weapons behind it. Of course it was monitored/patrolled 24/7/365, and the border fence should be as well. Maybe have some of those troops we will be bringing home to keep track of it.

 

People generally don't immigrate to countries where no opportunity exists for work, and my point is that the major beneficiaries of artificially cheap labor here in the U.S. are the exact same people who exploit and support it everywhere else in the world. It's not only the ruling class multinational mafia, which has been in control of our country's pursestrings since Nixon, it's your contractor neighbor who insists on hiring Joe Daylaborer at your nearest Home Depot. Mass surrender to unrestrained greed. So there's exactly zero point in keeping the Mexicans out, as long as our own labor force remains sold to Communists who work for a quarter of what Western countries do and number over one billion. I think the Brits and others have reached that same conclusion with their own immigration and trade problems.

[Lisnpuppy]

 

@HeyYou

 

I took a very active interest in everything this year.

 

These were not the droids I was looking for.

Ain't that the truth. :smile:

 

He's not even waiting until he's in office to forget about his campaign promises, overnight we went from a border wall to a border fence. According to the article this represents a "softening" of Trump's immigration policy.

 

"I'm good at this."

 

http://www.kitco.com/news/2016-11-14/Trump-Shapes-White-House-Hires-Establishment-Figure-Firebrand.html

 

If Trump was supposed to be the change candidate I think we'll have to keep searching for one. At least people now understand who the actual drivers are in illegal immigration in the U.S., and it's not Democrats.

Fence, wall, whatever. The idea is to make it more difficult for illegals to come into the country. Just walking across some line on a map isn't really much of a deterrent. A fence will help, especially if it is monitored. (sensors, cameras, whathaveyou, and then people to respond to alarms......)

 

We only had a fence around our weapons storage area when I was in the service. And we had a pretty good sized collection of nuclear weapons behind it. Of course it was monitored/patrolled 24/7/365, and the border fence should be as well. Maybe have some of those troops we will be bringing home to keep track of it.

 

 

I am going to have to disagree with you about the "just walking across some line on a map." Now there aren't many agencies that keep track of immigrants who die trying to cross US borders. There was an article in Smithsonian Magazine in 2014 saying that even the US Border Patrol who do not really keep the best of numbers at times (but the best we have) say that in the past year (article from Oct 2014) at least 445 people are confirmed to have died trying to cross the US Southern Border. Perhaps that isn't a big percent compared to the number that come across but I think its a bunch. Even more disturbing the article discusses that in this same time frame over 47, 000 unaccompanied children were picked up trying to cross. How desperate are people to save their children and/or to get across that they will do this?

 

With all the suffering and war in the world now I suspect there will be more. They cross in places that don't have as much "protection" and they don't have it because it is so dangerous to cross in many places. Think how bad it is in Europe where there are places hemorrhaging people fleeing from ISIS and Syria, etc.

 

I know we need to address the immigration issues. I admit I don't have a ready answer, but there are places on the southern border with "walls, fences, etc" and they really are not particularly effective. And Mexico is not going to be willing or able to help that cause.

 

We are a nation of immigrants. The US would not exist if not for this. We are a smart and I thought, compassionate people. Surely a better way can be found?

 

(Article for reference.)

 

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/nearly-6000-migrants-have-died-along-mexico-us-border-2000-180952904/?no-ist

[TheMastersSon]

The obvious and only eventual answer for a reactionary like Trump imo will be to put the perpetually tortured animal out of its misery, invade Mexico, rename it South Texas and voila no more immigration problems. Now let's hear what he has in mind for things that actually matter, like China. I mean aside from his pretend fixes like trade tariffs.

[Lisnpuppy]

The obvious and only eventual answer for a reactionary like Trump imo will be to put the perpetually tortured animal out of its misery, invade Mexico, rename it South Texas and voila no more immigration problems. Now let's hear what he has in mind for things that actually matter, like China. I mean aside from his pretend fixes like trade tariffs.

 

Things that actually matter? *scratches head*

[TheMastersSon]

For the most part illegal immigrants take jobs few or no Americans want, everything from harvesting our crops to washing our dishes and bussing tables in our restaurants. The same cannot be said for China, our manufacturing sector is already decimated and now others sectors (engineering, R&D etc) are being shipped there. No reason not to, as long as our federal government rewards our corporations for exporting our jobs, that's exactly what they'll continue to do.

Edited November 15, 2016 by TheMastersSon

[Lisnpuppy]

For the most part illegal immigrants take jobs few or no Americans want, everything from harvesting our crops to washing our dishes and bussing tables in our restaurants. The same cannot be said for China, our manufacturing sector is already decimated and now others sectors (engineering, R&D etc) are being shipped there. No reason not to, as long as our federal government rewards our corporations for exporting our jobs, that's exactly what they'll continue to do.

I don't necessarily disagree that immigrants are sometimes not what they are portrayed. I know they often do jobs that most Americans will not. I also know that there are hundreds of thousands of STEM jobs, many which pay well that are going unfilled in the US because no one is getting the required education to work them. So there are more jobs than some admit (and perhaps some of that re-training for miners some discuss could be used to educate them on STEM jobs or to send them to college to learn the skills.)

 

However that being said many immigrants still get public assistance even when not legally here. That is the biggest issue I have with that. Regardless it all needs addressed and it is something that can't continue in the way it has. Eventually there is no room in the inn.

 

But bless your heart, I just kinda think you chose poorly in your words. I spoke of people dying crossing borders and tens of thousands of children crossing alone (for whatever reason) and your next comment is to move on to things that matter.

 

You are, of course, allowed to say what you will and in any way you wish with whatever amount of tact and respect you choose.

[JimboUK]

 

 

@HeyYou

 

I took a very active interest in everything this year.

 

These were not the droids I was looking for.

Ain't that the truth. :smile:

 

He's not even waiting until he's in office to forget about his campaign promises, overnight we went from a border wall to a border fence. According to the article this represents a "softening" of Trump's immigration policy.

 

"I'm good at this."

 

http://www.kitco.com/news/2016-11-14/Trump-Shapes-White-House-Hires-Establishment-Figure-Firebrand.html

 

If Trump was supposed to be the change candidate I think we'll have to keep searching for one. At least people now understand who the actual drivers are in illegal immigration in the U.S., and it's not Democrats.

Fence, wall, whatever. The idea is to make it more difficult for illegals to come into the country. Just walking across some line on a map isn't really much of a deterrent. A fence will help, especially if it is monitored. (sensors, cameras, whathaveyou, and then people to respond to alarms......)

 

We only had a fence around our weapons storage area when I was in the service. And we had a pretty good sized collection of nuclear weapons behind it. Of course it was monitored/patrolled 24/7/365, and the border fence should be as well. Maybe have some of those troops we will be bringing home to keep track of it.

 

People generally don't immigrate to countries where no opportunity exists for work, and my point is that the major beneficiaries of artificially cheap labor here in the U.S. are the exact same people who exploit and support it everywhere else in the world. It's not only the ruling class multinational mafia, which has been in control of our country's pursestrings since Nixon, it's your contractor neighbor who insists on hiring Joe Daylaborer at your nearest Home Depot. Mass surrender to unrestrained greed. So there's exactly zero point in keeping the Mexicans out, as long as our own labor force remains sold to Communists who work for a quarter of what Western countries do and number over one billion. I think the Brits and others have reached that same conclusion with their own immigration and trade problems.

 

 

The Brits have come to the opposite conclusion, unskilled or low skilled labour needs to be kept out, it was one of the main reasons behind Brexit.

[HeyYou]

Yep, people die crossing the border illegally. A fair bit of it is desert, so, it shouldn't really come as a surprise. A goodly percentage of those areas are rather remote as well, so, they aren't really patrolled effectively, as mother nature has already put up a pretty serious obstacle. Desperate folk will do desperate things though, and will attempt to cross in those areas, with easily predictable results. I don't see that as "our" problem. They are committing a criminal act, and can suffer the consequences thereof. Would a fence, and patrols, reduce that? Pretty good chance it would.

 

As for illegals doing jobs that americans 'won't'.... That's only partially true, there are a fair few LEGAL immigrants doing the same job. There are also illegals doing jobs that americans actually want... (construction, etc,) The companies hire the illegals because they will work cheaper, and off the books. Which means more profit for the company. And there really aren't any drawbacks to doing it, as even if you are caught, nothing really happens. We need to start enforcing the laws that are already on the books, and stop rewarding folks for illegal acts. If you are here illegally, there should be NO welfare, medicaid, foodstamps, drivers license, subsidized housing, etc. If your first act in coming to this country is entering illegally, the ONLY thing you should get is a bus ticket back to where you came from.

[TheMastersSon]

The Brits have come to the opposite conclusion, unskilled or low skilled labour needs to be kept out, it was one of the main reasons behind Brexit.

 

The point is, from these votes I think Western/capitalist countries have finally caught onto the scam of forcing incompatible economic systems to compete with each other, and this frustration/anger/etc motivates a lot of the anti-immigration sentiment in our countries. Trump is stupid and reactionary enough to blame people for trying to make better lives for themselves, while his own party is the main defender of the status quo for illegal immigration and its primary beneficiary. He does the same thing with China, proposing tariffs against them, as if THEY'RE the ones who are doing something wrong. It was OUR government who "opened the gates" to THEM, and started forcing this sham and utterly futile "competition". China simply continues to operate according to their own system, like they always have and only can, and unlike both your country and mine. The basic logic imo is that it's very close to pointless worrying about domestic illegal immigration in our countries, when over a billion Chinese happily stay in their own and do our jobs for a half or third as much as even our illegals make. It wouldn't be a problem if our federal/national governments didn't force us to compete with it, and precisely ZERO U.S. and UK jobs were lost to China prior to 1971 because we simply refused to do business with their regime, which many Americans to this day still refuse to refer to as China's government. The history of our two peoples is a love affair that predates these Communist thugs by almost a century. But Ronald Reagan came to presidential power on a platform of "America's workers can compete with anyone's!", the debate at the time was whether to force capitalism to compete with socialist countries like Japan. Doing the same with Communist countries was still largely unthinkable in my country. We all waved our flags in support of his bald-faced lies (Thatcher told as many) and within 20 years our auto industry was all but lost to the Japanese. Permanently.

 

If your Parliament was to propose banning the UK's economic and trade ties with enslaved countries, specifically those that do not allow migration rights for the people or recognize any other individual rights, such as China, how would this proposal fare in your opinion?

Edited November 15, 2016 by TheMastersSon