Why Trump Won

[Lisnpuppy]

Yep, people die crossing the border illegally. A fair bit of it is desert, so, it shouldn't really come as a surprise. A goodly percentage of those areas are rather remote as well, so, they aren't really patrolled effectively, as mother nature has already put up a pretty serious obstacle. Desperate folk will do desperate things though, and will attempt to cross in those areas, with easily predictable results. I don't see that as "our" problem. They are committing a criminal act, and can suffer the consequences thereof. Would a fence, and patrols, reduce that? Pretty good chance it would.

 

As for illegals doing jobs that americans 'won't'.... That's only partially true, there are a fair few LEGAL immigrants doing the same job. There are also illegals doing jobs that americans actually want... (construction, etc,) The companies hire the illegals because they will work cheaper, and off the books. Which means more profit for the company. And there really aren't any drawbacks to doing it, as even if you are caught, nothing really happens. We need to start enforcing the laws that are already on the books, and stop rewarding folks for illegal acts. If you are here illegally, there should be NO welfare, medicaid, foodstamps, drivers license, subsidized housing, etc. If your first act in coming to this country is entering illegally, the ONLY thing you should get is a bus ticket back to where you came from.

 

I completely agree that the people that hire them should be held accountable also. If not more so. And as I said I disagree with illegals having access to public assistance. The main issue as it though..is what do we do with the huge numbers here that have been here for years and years and years. I think a path to citizenship is a good way to go. Maybe not as presented but I can not imagine how much more money it will cost to round everyone up and send them all back to..where ever. I don't think that is the answer.

 

As for the wall...well unless Mexico wins the lotto I am unsure how we'd pay for any of it. Hell our infrastructure is in deplorable condition, our schools as well. And even homeland security said it would cost too much.

 

Chairman of the House Armed Services Committee Duncan Hunter proposed building two parallel steel and wire fences running from the Gulf of Mexico to the Pacific Coast. Hunter called for building a reinforced, two-layer 15' fence, separated by a 100-yard gap, along the entire length of the US border with Mexico. It would include additional physical barriers, powerful lighting and sensors to detect illegal border crossers. Some envision a wall or a fence. Others foresee a "virtual" fence of cameras, lighting, and sensors along the US-Mexican border.

But Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said a wall running the length of a border would cost too much. A 2,000 mile state-of-the-art border fence has been estimated to cost between four and eight billion dollars. Costs for a wall that would run the entire length of the border might be as low as $851 million for a standard 10-foot prison chain link fence topped by razor wire. For another $362 million, the fence could be electrified. A larger 12-foot tall, two-foot-thick concrete wall painted on both sides would run about $2 billion. Initially it was estimated that the San Diego fence would cost $14 million -- about $1 million a mile. The first 11 miles of the fence eventually cost $42 million -- $3.8 million per mile, and the last 3.5 miles may cost even more since they cover more difficult terrain. An additional $35 million to complete the final 3.5 miles was approved in 2005 by the Department of Homeland Security -- $10 million per mile.

 

Now I suppose they could just put up some yellow tape that says do not cross, set up a few fake cameras like we used to do in my bookstore since we couldn't afford the real ones to keep the kiddies out of the Playboy Mags. Maybe a nice sound system playing dog barks and whatever Kanye West album is out? I jest but I think you see the point I try to make.

 

Walls have been built to keep people in and out for thousands of years. It usually doesn't work for long. And then people get creative like the guy from West Germany in the 1960s whose girl lived on the other side in East Berlin. He could cross back and forth, she could not. He studies the gates and noticed at the time, Checkpoint Charlie had just a gate bar that was about 3ish feet off the ground. The soldiers would go inside and check the paperwork. he decided to exploit this and went and found a Austin Healey Sprite which was super small. He let air out the tires and removed the front glass. He hid his poor woman under a back seat and when the soldier took his paperwork into look at, BAM flat on the floor he put the pedal and bending over at the last second, he cleared under the gate with an inch to spare. Getting safely to West Berlin, the guards on that side came over. The guy lifts her out and announces they were getting married and a little street celebration ensued.

 

A wall of some sort may help. Closing off the jobs would be a good first step and that will take, as you say, making the existing laws apply. But unlike Little Jack Horner, Mr. Trump can't just stick his thumb in the wall and hope to stem the tide. There needs to be more creative thinking here. And not to veer this topic even more, but if there was not such money in narcotics...which is in large part why some cross over (not just to deal and sell but to escape violence of cartels) I think there could be a big impact on the number crossing.

 

But now we have many in South America (not just Mexico but many Latin American States) suffering from the same things. Many see America as the land of milk and honey and will continue to be desperate enough to come. And no, I guess it isn't "our" problem they are dying in these illegal attempts...as a government...but as a nation of compassionate folk I would hope we could do better than that.

[HeyYou]

Thing is, we could cover the cost of the fence by NOT paying Iraq 10 billion dollars per year to hate us......... (along with a host of other countries we send money to, for no good reason......) Not to mention that costs on a government contract are NEVER within budget. I don't remember the last time (first time?) a government contract came in with a final cost anywhere near what was originally predicted. Generally, a good rule of thumb is: Take what they quote you, triple it, and you MIGHT be close. That really needs to change too..... Only the government is so flexible on their contracts. Not one other legal entity would let folks get away with that kind of stupidity.

 

Getting mexico to pay for it is a pipe dream, that will never happen. Mexico doesn't want it.......

 

How about we start spending some of the money we just give away on projects right here at home? Why are we rebuilding other countries infrastructure, when our own is in such deplorable condition?

[TheMastersSon]

Thing is, we could cover the cost of the fence by NOT paying Iraq 10 billion dollars per year to hate us......... (along with a host of other countries we send money to, for no good reason......) Not to mention that costs on a government contract are NEVER within budget. I don't remember the last time (first time?) a government contract came in with a final cost anywhere near what was originally predicted. Generally, a good rule of thumb is: Take what they quote you, triple it, and you MIGHT be close. That really needs to change too..... Only the government is so flexible on their contracts. Not one other legal entity would let folks get away with that kind of stupidity.

 

Getting mexico to pay for it is a pipe dream, that will never happen. Mexico doesn't want it.......

 

How about we start spending some of the money we just give away on projects right here at home? Why are we rebuilding other countries infrastructure, when our own is in such deplorable condition?

Guess where U.S. taxpayer dollars pay (or at least paid, assuming the program hasn't collapsed along with the rest of our installed government) for universal and free health care?

 

Iraq.

 

Also did you know it's been confirmed from Pentagon budgets that Dick Cheney chose military targets in Iraq, not on their strategic importance but on Halliburton's potential profit margins for their rebuilding? And the punchline to this joke is that, as far as anyone knows, Cheney did nothing illegal. Our last administration were simply masters of opportunism. I guess my point is that our federal government has decayed to the point of outright despotism and has been there since Nixon imo.

Edited November 16, 2016 by TheMastersSon

[Aurielius]

[\youtube]

 

Just for you Colorwheel..chuckles.

(Normally I believe being gracious to a defeated foe...but there are exceptions to every rule. )

Remember when you told me in 2008 that US conservatism was a marginalized dying ideology?

The House, the Senate, the White House, a majority of State Governments and soon a conservative SCOTUS..not bad for a for a corpse.

Priceless satire of liberal hubris.

[TheMastersSon]

As Tom Cruise said in an interview, the problem with being #1 is that there's only one direction to go. So I'll stand back and watch natural selection work its magic, as reactionary stupidity is displayed in ways and to degrees never before seen or even imagined in our country. I give Trump six months to either start WWIII or before impeachment proceedings begin.

 

I'm also very thankful our Congress will be faced with the choice of getting actual work done, or trying to remove their own candidate from office instead of Democratic candidates. Even better news imo is that Trump is currently exposing himself as a fraud as a protest or change candidate, even before he takes office. Look at his proposed cabinet so far, I think it's in chapter four or five in my Third Reich novel.

Edited November 16, 2016 by TheMastersSon

[HeyYou]

As Tom Cruise said in an interview, the problem with being #1 is that there's only one direction to go. So I'll stand back and watch natural selection work its magic, as reactionary stupidity is displayed in ways and to degrees never before seen or even imagined in our country. I give Trump six months to either start WWIII or before impeachment proceedings begin.

 

I'm also very thankful our Congress will be faced with the choice of getting actual work done, or trying to remove their own candidate from office instead of Democratic candidates. Even better news imo is that Trump is currently exposing himself as a fraud as a protest or change candidate, even before he takes office. Look at his proposed cabinet so far, I think it's in chapter four or five in my Third Reich novel.

Trump has no interest in starting a war with anyone. That was Hilarys idea, with her "no fly zone" in Syria.

 

What I see as 'reactionary stupidity' is all the demonstrations by the disappointed dems, that were told by the media that their candidate had won, long before voting even started. Imagine their surprise when Trump wins by a significant margin..... Of course the 'other side' cheated, or, I know, the Russians did it! Yeah, that's it. The Russians made sure Trump won, because he wants to start war with them. Right. Uh huh. That makes perfect sense.........

[TheMastersSon]

HeyYou, imo just about anyone would have done as well or better against Hillary. As I mentioned in a previous thread, the DNC knew better than anyone just how weak of a candidate she was, with our current president appearing from nowhere to win the 2008 primaries. So the only explanation imo is that, due to abject cronyism and decay of our electoral process into outright oligarchy, the DNC was obligated to run Clinton regardless of her actual chances of winning.

Edited November 16, 2016 by TheMastersSon

[JimboUK]

For the most part illegal immigrants take jobs few or no Americans want.

 

The answer to that isn't immigration it's fixing the welfare system, if there are unemployed people and there are jobs that need doing you put the two together, importing labour while people are on welfare is ridiculous.

[HeyYou]

HeyYou, imo just about anyone would have done as well or better against Hillary. As I mentioned in a previous thread, the DNC knew better than anyone just how weak of a candidate she was, with our current president appearing from nowhere to win the 2008 primaries. So the only explanation imo is that, due to abject cronyism and decay of our electoral process into outright oligarchy, the DNC was obligated to run Clinton regardless of her actual chances of winning.

Our government is controlled by 'special interests', mainly, the military-industrial complex, closely followed by corporate america in general. They decide who runs, they also tend to decide who wins. Trump was a wild card, not a member of the political establishment, pretty much paid for his own campaign, therefore, beholden to no one... THAT is why he got elected. America is simply tired of 'business as usual' in DC. For the last couple decades, what party was in control made little, if any, difference, the policies were all pretty much the same.

[TheMastersSon]

Trump's position on China indicates he's a tool of the multinationals imo, like all the rest. Tariffs not only won't and can't work against a country that dictates the value of their own currency, this simple fact is self-evident to any nine year-old, yet Trump continues pushing for them as a solution. So welcome to 40% higher prices overnight on most everything, while China simply adjusts their currency to account for the tariffs and absolutely nothing is accomplished except to raise prices for everyone. Tariffs are a smoke and mirrors solution, to avoid dealing with the actual cause of our China problem, namely OUR OWN obscene labor and trade policies which pretend it's possible to establish free and fair economic and trade ties with enslaved countries and Communist regimes, and reward our corporations for exporting our jobs to these countries. They've done so since Nixon.

 

Sorry to harp about a single topic but imo if we don't fix our China problem nothing else matters. It's entirely possible nobody remains in America who cares that they're selling the futures of their grandkids and great-grandkids down the debt river, every time they see a made in China label.

Edited November 18, 2016 by TheMastersSon