An update on Vortex development

[pantyera]

In response to post #55344843. #55373403, #55373898, #55376993, #55378678, #55396798, #55413778, #55466973, #55486013, #55493168, #55568974 are all replies on the same post.

Oax wrote: I don't like change... I'll just leave it at that :P

ILostMyNametag wrote: if it isnt broke dont fix it

Ethreon wrote: Yes, let's all live in mud huts cause some of the villagers can't handle change.

"if aint broke don't fix it" is a dumb saying.

1000101 wrote: Change for the sake of changing is dumb. If there is an inherent flaw in the existing system, that's a reason for change. But, if you can only think of one reason then you don't have enough reasons.

Ethreon wrote: Congrats on rephrasing the other guy with your own words. We're discussing NMM here - I don't think there's a single person that used it across time without issues. There's even another article detailing all the reasons this change is happening, were people willing to bother reading.

KennyMcCormick315 wrote: To be fair, NMM is horribly broken. Always has been. I don't yet know if Vortex will be an improvement but here's hoping.


I wholeheartedly disagree with 'If it ain't broke don't fix it' being a dumb saying, in fact, it's one I live by and one I feel the world should live by. Change solely for change's sake is dumb and often introduces problems that weren't there beforehand with no net benefit to be had. 'Fixing' things that aren't broken is a major problem with society today.

That being said, NMM needs a lot of fixing. I flat out wouldn't use it at all if I had a choice. I love FOMM, it's my ideal mod manager. I actually jury-rigged it to work with Skyrim and spent a ton of time attempting to coax it to manage Fallout 4's mods as well. Hell, I still use it on FO3, FNV, Skyrim, and I've gone out of my way to make sure NMM never tries to associate with those three titles so it can't screw up what's working. But try as I might I couldn't coax it to work with FO4, so I was forced to use the crashy pile of crap that is NMM.

Not fond of NMM and I'm not going to shed a tear when it's depreciated. I just hope Vortex is an improvement. I'll reserve judgement until it's in my hands.

1000101 wrote: @Ethreon: I don't know why you are being caustic. There is certainly no need for it. Making comments like "were people willing to bother reading" assumes that "people" spend their time simply waiting or searching for information on the specific subject matter. Those incorrect assumptions are your problem, nobody else's. Given that those "people" do not spend large amounts of their time on this website and may have missed or not known to look up the specific thing there is no reason to be rude. That you think the change is good, well that's good, others don't - but there is never any call to be passive aggressiveness simply because someone expresses an opinion contrary to yours.

tajetaje wrote: those "people" are you, I believe he is pointing out that you, and others that may post similarly, should not make claims on a subject matter that you don't understand.

dejec1989 wrote: It's not a dumb saying, you just can't apply it to everything.

1000101 wrote: @tajetaje: We all know that others and myself are the "people" in question. Not sure why you felt the need to point out what we all knew. The point was there was no call for being passive aggressive or rude.

Anyway, I said my piece and to make sure I am clear here's a simple point form list:

+ Change is good if it needed, if it's not needed (need != want) then it's a massive waste of resources;
+ Vortex would need similar functionality as Wyre Bash as far as separating install order and load order;
+ Although not previously stated, I'd like to mention that a minimalistic interface would be nice, I don't need massive buttons eating screen real estate like a fat kid with a chocolate cake (seems to be a popular thing in some programs these days to use oversized buttons with cyptic icons using a disproportionate amount of the programs screen space instead of a proper menu system);
+ Disagreeing with people doesn't need to be done rudely.

lithiumfox wrote: I mean the guy working on it is the guy who did MO which let you order install and load order, as well as did a VFS which let you install and uninstall mods with a checkbox without losing any files (as well as a file override system)

It was quite good at allowing different load orders of even files themselves. Kinda neat imo.

@69

1) Change is needed. NMM was never as good as any of it's contemporaries, either in form, function or reliability.
2) No, it'd need one like MO has; which is why the dev from that project is heading this project.
3) Any interface done poorly is bad. I've seen plenty of poorly done minimalist ones; they were all the rage for a good 15 years, at least.
4) Expect disagreements to be rude if you're A) Harping on the same tired points that the people who are disagreeing with you are bone tired of hearing/rebutting and B) Arguing points with only the meanest understanding of the subject matter in question, especially when most of your lack of understanding could be cleared up with five more minutes spent on this site.
4.1) You are entitled to nothing, demanding respect will get you the opposite.

[axonis]

In response to post #55396883. #55493343 is also a reply to the same post.

KennyMcCormick315 wrote: All I want in a mod manager is the ability to install FOMODS, manage archive invalidation, and handle load orders. THat's it. I don't particularly care for logging in through the mod manager or being able to rate mods through it, I don't want it checking for updates(For itself or for mods) as I will do this as I feel the need to. I just want it to manage my load order and install fomods, nothing more. FOMM was overpowered for me, but I adored its simplicity, and that's what I'm hoping for out of Vortex.


I'll probably give it a try in January when it pops out. Here's hoping it's an honest and simple little program that does what it says on the tin and doesn't have a lot of extraneous fluff.

lithiumfox wrote: It's a bit more useful than that. The nice part about MO over NMM was the fact that you could keep mods in their full state and reorder entire Mods and disable specific files (would make it a .mohidden extension), particularly useful for texture/model mods. You could easily test without having files completely deleted or written over. Install a new mod you like but hate the specific texture for a specific item?

You could just go into the mod info and disable that file for that mod and a previous file would load. Or could just reorder entire texture mods without reinstalling them

Took up a lot more space, sure, but was hella convenient.

You could just go into the mod info and disable that file for that mod and a previous file would load.

Such functions are best left out of a mod manager. As a user I'm always free to delete files from mod archives but as a mod author I would refuse to support users that do so.

[UhuruNUru]

In response to post #55396883. #55493343, #55600444 are all replies on the same post.

KennyMcCormick315 wrote: All I want in a mod manager is the ability to install FOMODS, manage archive invalidation, and handle load orders. THat's it. I don't particularly care for logging in through the mod manager or being able to rate mods through it, I don't want it checking for updates(For itself or for mods) as I will do this as I feel the need to. I just want it to manage my load order and install fomods, nothing more. FOMM was overpowered for me, but I adored its simplicity, and that's what I'm hoping for out of Vortex.


I'll probably give it a try in January when it pops out. Here's hoping it's an honest and simple little program that does what it says on the tin and doesn't have a lot of extraneous fluff.

lithiumfox wrote: It's a bit more useful than that. The nice part about MO over NMM was the fact that you could keep mods in their full state and reorder entire Mods and disable specific files (would make it a .mohidden extension), particularly useful for texture/model mods. You could easily test without having files completely deleted or written over. Install a new mod you like but hate the specific texture for a specific item?

You could just go into the mod info and disable that file for that mod and a previous file would load. Or could just reorder entire texture mods without reinstalling them

Took up a lot more space, sure, but was hella convenient.

axonis wrote:

You could just go into the mod info and disable that file for that mod and a previous file would load.

Such functions are best left out of a mod manager. As a user I'm always free to delete files from mod archives but as a mod author I would refuse to support users that do so.

KennyMcCormick315
Initial design goals were to be just a basic mod manager, with default settings, but with optional (Switched of by Default), more advanced features, that many other users want. You may be surprised at what you end up using, as you find uses for the optional features.

Features that NMM already has, are not going to be removed.
Download with Manager, and Updating with it, are core basic features, you are going to have to live with, though you may be able to disable them.

Axonis
Users that know enough to do this sort of thing, are often the ones helping you to provide support, not the ones asking for it.
However the Texture switching example lithiumfox gives, wouldn't make any difference to your mods functionality, and in such cases you should still support the user, as the issues aren't affected by which texture is being used.

Mod Organizer already provides that feature, and so does manual modding, but in MO's case it's very simple to "unhide" the file, and eliminate that as a cause of an issue.
The advanced user, wouldn't hide required files, they would have made a patch if both mods changes were required.

Fears about potential advanced options are unreasonable, when the design goals are to default to a very basic manager, that's what most basic (NMM) users will use.
As for any optional advanced features, wait and see what's offered, probably very little, except for TES/Fallout games, which will get special treatment, being about 90% of the sites mods,

Generally
I'm not convinced that even Tannin's Mod Organizer experience can be fully applied to a "Jack of all games" NMM replacement.
Though I'm sure the TES/Fallout games will get special features as the main games of NexusMods, Vortex is intended to work for any game, that has mods.

That means basic features that can be applied to all games, but not many customised ones that only one, or two games can use.

Just like NMM, I expect Vortex to be my "Only choice" manager, because whenever any game's had a custom built manager, that manager is almost always much better for that specific game than NMM.

There's been suggestions of a user added Plugin type of system, to add more advanced customised functions for specific games, and that could work well.

Let's just wait for an Alpha release, then we can all gripe about what it actually does, and doesn't do.

I doubt old games will ever be added though, so I'll still be using my game specific managers for almost every game I mod. Edited November 29, 2017 by UhuruNUru

[1000101]

In response to post #55344843. #55373403, #55373898, #55376993, #55378678, #55396798, #55413778, #55466973, #55486013, #55493168, #55568974, #55598894 are all replies on the same post.

Oax wrote: I don't like change... I'll just leave it at that :P

ILostMyNametag wrote: if it isnt broke dont fix it

Ethreon wrote: Yes, let's all live in mud huts cause some of the villagers can't handle change.

"if aint broke don't fix it" is a dumb saying.

1000101 wrote: Change for the sake of changing is dumb. If there is an inherent flaw in the existing system, that's a reason for change. But, if you can only think of one reason then you don't have enough reasons.

Ethreon wrote: Congrats on rephrasing the other guy with your own words. We're discussing NMM here - I don't think there's a single person that used it across time without issues. There's even another article detailing all the reasons this change is happening, were people willing to bother reading.

KennyMcCormick315 wrote: To be fair, NMM is horribly broken. Always has been. I don't yet know if Vortex will be an improvement but here's hoping.


I wholeheartedly disagree with 'If it ain't broke don't fix it' being a dumb saying, in fact, it's one I live by and one I feel the world should live by. Change solely for change's sake is dumb and often introduces problems that weren't there beforehand with no net benefit to be had. 'Fixing' things that aren't broken is a major problem with society today.

That being said, NMM needs a lot of fixing. I flat out wouldn't use it at all if I had a choice. I love FOMM, it's my ideal mod manager. I actually jury-rigged it to work with Skyrim and spent a ton of time attempting to coax it to manage Fallout 4's mods as well. Hell, I still use it on FO3, FNV, Skyrim, and I've gone out of my way to make sure NMM never tries to associate with those three titles so it can't screw up what's working. But try as I might I couldn't coax it to work with FO4, so I was forced to use the crashy pile of crap that is NMM.

Not fond of NMM and I'm not going to shed a tear when it's depreciated. I just hope Vortex is an improvement. I'll reserve judgement until it's in my hands.

1000101 wrote: @Ethreon: I don't know why you are being caustic. There is certainly no need for it. Making comments like "were people willing to bother reading" assumes that "people" spend their time simply waiting or searching for information on the specific subject matter. Those incorrect assumptions are your problem, nobody else's. Given that those "people" do not spend large amounts of their time on this website and may have missed or not known to look up the specific thing there is no reason to be rude. That you think the change is good, well that's good, others don't - but there is never any call to be passive aggressiveness simply because someone expresses an opinion contrary to yours.

tajetaje wrote: those "people" are you, I believe he is pointing out that you, and others that may post similarly, should not make claims on a subject matter that you don't understand.

dejec1989 wrote: It's not a dumb saying, you just can't apply it to everything.

1000101 wrote: @tajetaje: We all know that others and myself are the "people" in question. Not sure why you felt the need to point out what we all knew. The point was there was no call for being passive aggressive or rude.

Anyway, I said my piece and to make sure I am clear here's a simple point form list:

+ Change is good if it needed, if it's not needed (need != want) then it's a massive waste of resources;
+ Vortex would need similar functionality as Wyre Bash as far as separating install order and load order;
+ Although not previously stated, I'd like to mention that a minimalistic interface would be nice, I don't need massive buttons eating screen real estate like a fat kid with a chocolate cake (seems to be a popular thing in some programs these days to use oversized buttons with cyptic icons using a disproportionate amount of the programs screen space instead of a proper menu system);
+ Disagreeing with people doesn't need to be done rudely.

lithiumfox wrote: I mean the guy working on it is the guy who did MO which let you order install and load order, as well as did a VFS which let you install and uninstall mods with a checkbox without losing any files (as well as a file override system)

It was quite good at allowing different load orders of even files themselves. Kinda neat imo.

pantyera wrote: @69

1) Change is needed. NMM was never as good as any of it's contemporaries, either in form, function or reliability.
2) No, it'd need one like MO has; which is why the dev from that project is heading this project.
3) Any interface done poorly is bad. I've seen plenty of poorly done minimalist ones; they were all the rage for a good 15 years, at least.
4) Expect disagreements to be rude if you're A) Harping on the same tired points that the people who are disagreeing with you are bone tired of hearing/rebutting and B) Arguing points with only the meanest understanding of the subject matter in question, especially when most of your lack of understanding could be cleared up with five more minutes spent on this site.
4.1) You are entitled to nothing, demanding respect will get you the opposite.

@pantyera

1) I never argued that change wasn't needed, the entire rest of your statement is purely subjective ("never as good") and therefore irrelevant.
2) So we both agree that install order and load order need to be separate, everything else is purely subjective and again, irrelevant.
3) A poor interface is a poor interface however a poor interface that uses 10% more space than the poor interface beside it is 10% worse.
4) Nobody was "harping" the same points, further there is only so many ways of saying "I agree with X about Y." That someone has already said, "I don't agree with X about Y," doesn't mean jack. If only one person agreed and one person disagreed then no decisions about anything would be make, it's about the collective quantity and quality of the points addressed - 10 people wanting a particular feature with reasonable expectations bears more weight than 10 people wanting the opposite only using "no that's dumb", no matter how big an arsehole those people make themselves because "they are bone tired of hearing it". As an aside, the reasonable people are "bone tired of hearing from arseholes".
4a) What "lack of understanding?" That I initially wasn't sure what "Vortex" was as it was mentioned without context? That's (a) hardly adding to your argument since in the same post I assumed it to be what it is - a mod manager - and therefore (b) a red herring only serving to distract from your lack of an actual argument.
4.1) Not sure how you make the leap from "disagreeing with people doesn't need to be done rudely" to "I can be as big an arsehole as I like". Seriously, I have no idea why you'd argue for making yourself an arsehole, but you are free to be one if you like. Edited November 29, 2017 by 1000101

[Anvirol]

Any chance that we might get beta / RC release before the year change? :smile:

 

I'd love to start new ultra modded Fo3/NV/Fo4 runs, but NMM issues and low performance has putting me off.

I hope the new application is multithreaded to improve extract/copy/install operations.

[Ethreon]

In response to post #55613201.

Anvirol wrote:

Any chance that we might get beta / RC release before the year change? :smile:

 

I'd love to start new ultra modded Fo3/NV/Fo4 runs, but NMM issues and low performance has putting me off.

I hope the new application is multithreaded to improve extract/copy/install operations.

Did you read the article?

[BountyBam]

Any chance of a sneaky peak at the UI? :D

[DoubleU7]

In response to post #55594429.

dragonjet wrote: feature request: plugins made from electron, or plugins as JS modules, or webpacked modules.

If possible and if it becomes open source, I'm interested to develop plugins for Vortex. I have ideas such as "bethINI" as a mod manager plugin, STEP modlist verification, memory fix checker, etc.

Would be nice to have them as plugins rather than separate downloadable third-party apps, that we link and run in the context of the virtual filesystem. But of course they will still be run in the context of the vfs when they are executed, but it will be built-in like LOOT in the original MO.

This. Plugins could fix problems devs fail to address and can add more functionality (much like mods do for games)...

[KasperSky44]

In response to post #55344843. #55373403, #55373898, #55376993, #55378678, #55396798, #55413778, #55466973, #55486013, #55493168, #55568974, #55598894, #55609326 are all replies on the same post.

Oax wrote: I don't like change... I'll just leave it at that :P

ILostMyNametag wrote: if it isnt broke dont fix it

Ethreon wrote: Yes, let's all live in mud huts cause some of the villagers can't handle change.

"if aint broke don't fix it" is a dumb saying.

1000101 wrote: Change for the sake of changing is dumb. If there is an inherent flaw in the existing system, that's a reason for change. But, if you can only think of one reason then you don't have enough reasons.

Ethreon wrote: Congrats on rephrasing the other guy with your own words. We're discussing NMM here - I don't think there's a single person that used it across time without issues. There's even another article detailing all the reasons this change is happening, were people willing to bother reading.

KennyMcCormick315 wrote: To be fair, NMM is horribly broken. Always has been. I don't yet know if Vortex will be an improvement but here's hoping.


I wholeheartedly disagree with 'If it ain't broke don't fix it' being a dumb saying, in fact, it's one I live by and one I feel the world should live by. Change solely for change's sake is dumb and often introduces problems that weren't there beforehand with no net benefit to be had. 'Fixing' things that aren't broken is a major problem with society today.

That being said, NMM needs a lot of fixing. I flat out wouldn't use it at all if I had a choice. I love FOMM, it's my ideal mod manager. I actually jury-rigged it to work with Skyrim and spent a ton of time attempting to coax it to manage Fallout 4's mods as well. Hell, I still use it on FO3, FNV, Skyrim, and I've gone out of my way to make sure NMM never tries to associate with those three titles so it can't screw up what's working. But try as I might I couldn't coax it to work with FO4, so I was forced to use the crashy pile of crap that is NMM.

Not fond of NMM and I'm not going to shed a tear when it's depreciated. I just hope Vortex is an improvement. I'll reserve judgement until it's in my hands.

1000101 wrote: @Ethreon: I don't know why you are being caustic. There is certainly no need for it. Making comments like "were people willing to bother reading" assumes that "people" spend their time simply waiting or searching for information on the specific subject matter. Those incorrect assumptions are your problem, nobody else's. Given that those "people" do not spend large amounts of their time on this website and may have missed or not known to look up the specific thing there is no reason to be rude. That you think the change is good, well that's good, others don't - but there is never any call to be passive aggressiveness simply because someone expresses an opinion contrary to yours.

tajetaje wrote: those "people" are you, I believe he is pointing out that you, and others that may post similarly, should not make claims on a subject matter that you don't understand.

dejec1989 wrote: It's not a dumb saying, you just can't apply it to everything.

1000101 wrote: @tajetaje: We all know that others and myself are the "people" in question. Not sure why you felt the need to point out what we all knew. The point was there was no call for being passive aggressive or rude.

Anyway, I said my piece and to make sure I am clear here's a simple point form list:

+ Change is good if it needed, if it's not needed (need != want) then it's a massive waste of resources;
+ Vortex would need similar functionality as Wyre Bash as far as separating install order and load order;
+ Although not previously stated, I'd like to mention that a minimalistic interface would be nice, I don't need massive buttons eating screen real estate like a fat kid with a chocolate cake (seems to be a popular thing in some programs these days to use oversized buttons with cyptic icons using a disproportionate amount of the programs screen space instead of a proper menu system);
+ Disagreeing with people doesn't need to be done rudely.

lithiumfox wrote: I mean the guy working on it is the guy who did MO which let you order install and load order, as well as did a VFS which let you install and uninstall mods with a checkbox without losing any files (as well as a file override system)

It was quite good at allowing different load orders of even files themselves. Kinda neat imo.

pantyera wrote: @69

1) Change is needed. NMM was never as good as any of it's contemporaries, either in form, function or reliability.
2) No, it'd need one like MO has; which is why the dev from that project is heading this project.
3) Any interface done poorly is bad. I've seen plenty of poorly done minimalist ones; they were all the rage for a good 15 years, at least.
4) Expect disagreements to be rude if you're A) Harping on the same tired points that the people who are disagreeing with you are bone tired of hearing/rebutting and B) Arguing points with only the meanest understanding of the subject matter in question, especially when most of your lack of understanding could be cleared up with five more minutes spent on this site.
4.1) You are entitled to nothing, demanding respect will get you the opposite.

1000101 wrote: @pantyera

1) I never argued that change wasn't needed, the entire rest of your statement is purely subjective ("never as good") and therefore irrelevant.
2) So we both agree that install order and load order need to be separate, everything else is purely subjective and again, irrelevant.
3) A poor interface is a poor interface however a poor interface that uses 10% more space than the poor interface beside it is 10% worse.
4) Nobody was "harping" the same points, further there is only so many ways of saying "I agree with X about Y." That someone has already said, "I don't agree with X about Y," doesn't mean jack. If only one person agreed and one person disagreed then no decisions about anything would be make, it's about the collective quantity and quality of the points addressed - 10 people wanting a particular feature with reasonable expectations bears more weight than 10 people wanting the opposite only using "no that's dumb", no matter how big an arsehole those people make themselves because "they are bone tired of hearing it". As an aside, the reasonable people are "bone tired of hearing from arseholes".
4a) What "lack of understanding?" That I initially wasn't sure what "Vortex" was as it was mentioned without context? That's (a) hardly adding to your argument since in the same post I assumed it to be what it is - a mod manager - and therefore (b) a red herring only serving to distract from your lack of an actual argument.
4.1) Not sure how you make the leap from "disagreeing with people doesn't need to be done rudely" to "I can be as big an arsehole as I like". Seriously, I have no idea why you'd argue for making yourself an arsehole, but you are free to be one if you like.

@KennyMcCormick315 I don't mean to be rude and bump an old comment, but there was a continuation of MO that got "somewhat" more finished than MO 2.0. It's kind of hard to find but if you need a manager for FO4 it works better than the steaming pile of garbage that is NMM.
(Link): https://github.com/LePresidente/modorganizer/releases

[mcdanielskh]

All I know is that it has to be better than NMM and I expect it to be at least as good as MO was.

I have not been modding for almost a year now as I have been patiently waiting (not making death threats- honestly what the hell is wrong with people these days. I almost want to sidebar this topic but I digress) for Vortex and for SKSE to work with Skyrim SE and for the SE ENB's to mature. I have my rig all set up and ready (I have since moved to windows 10 and have a separate drive for Skyrim, a M.2 PCIE drive Samsung 950 Pro.) As soon as Vortex is ready. I think I can begin (I hope SKSE will be past alpha by then). If Vortex is a flop, I quit....!

No more modding for me; if Vortex flops, I am done with Oldrim and its crashes.

I am done with crap like NMM (it's ok for a few mods but I install no less than 200+ mods, NMM is a nightmare for serious modders), I am not going to deal with the hassle of trying to get MO or MO2 to work with SE or the frustrations of not finding mods with proper bains to work with Wrye Bash.

No, I am not going to try to sort thru complex mod with 200+ options and cryptic folder placement or installer to try to make it work in Wrye Bash without a bain install.

NO, I WILL BE DONE.

 

Please Dark0ne make Vortex good. I don't want to be done :(

Edited December 4, 2017 by mcdanielskh