Levionte Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 In response to post #56081996. #56082276, #56082736, #56082851, #56104651, #56106911, #56107726, #56108276, #56109611, #56109726, #56109881, #56110486, #56111056, #56112401, #56113291, #56113516 are all replies on the same post. Reveal hidden contents Quote JimmyRJump wrote: I like the overall concept, although for SSE this could prove a bit of a hornet's nest with a lot of "modders" adapting restrictionless Skyrim2011 mods for the SE version.What I'd like to know is if folk willing to donate to the pool will be able to do so on an automated basis for a fix amount per month, like the recurring fee paid for Supporter/Premium status? Quote nesbit098 wrote: Interesting point of view.... Quote ousnius wrote: The opt-in will be off by default for each mod page. That means, people won't be allowed to make "points" off of porting SSE mods, unless the author specifically enables the permissions option for it. Quote JimmyRJump wrote: Thanks for the clarifcation, Ousnius. Quote sullyivan wrote: I'd prefer to donate funds directly to the pool on a monthly basis that would be a recurring automated process. This would be a great option. Great idea. Quote bchick3 wrote: I personally don’t see a problem with an sse porter like myself receiving donations this way or the old way. You know it’s not like there is an easy button you press and miraculously an oldrim mod is now an sse mod. It takes hours of work and that’s not including the time it takes to properly support said mod. Please folks don’t be hatin on porters. Quote JimmyRJump wrote: @bchick3Well, for a lot of small mods, the SSECK *IS* a magic button of kinds. I was referring to mods from modders who didn't have any restrictions on what was done with their mods. And with all due respect and certainly without any meaning of spreading *hate*, but whatever the time it takes to port a mod, it's still "just" a port and not original work. If the result of your port differs so much from the original then in my eyes it's no longer a port but a new mod that uses assets from what was the original.If the amount of time spent on doing something should be taken into acount, well, then I want in on the action for spending hours to upload a few screenshots because of going back and forth to get the links for the mods I use in my game that are representative for the way the screenie looks.Again, my comment was absolutely not intended to look down on "porters" but to raise the issue that it could prove more complicated than first thought to sort who is due what and what for. I'm not the kind of guy who's first downloading ported mods like a madman to then form a committee against the people who do the porting. I love mods and appreciate the people putting in the effort, but when it comes to recompense this better be thought out to within the most minute details or we risk running out of modders and porters because they could say, "well, if it's like this then I won't bother anymore". It has always struck me as odd that, from the moment there's money involved, things tend to go pear-shaped because of folk feeling entitled and getting nought, people getting jealous because "they" get some and "we" get nought,etc...The issue at hand is to set up a system that is fair towards everyone, not to start a smearing campaign. We're talking games here, not politics.And as important (to me) is the question about a possible automated contribution from non-modders towards the main pool of septims that will go towards the modders, if/when non-modders will be allowed to contribute money at all. Quote bchick3 wrote: Yeah I see your point and it’s not like I’m getting rich off donations I just dont want porters to get a raw deal here. It really does take some work to get mods ported. I f you don’t believe me give it a try. I’m not saying original authors should not get a percentage. Just that it should be a lower percentage. Otherwise it’s like you said, I will lose incentive to do ports at all. I do want to help people enjoy sse and that’s why I started porting some of the best mods. I have ported over 200 mods and I hate to think that would lose the ability for folks to show thier gratitude. Quite a lot of them were done by request. AnywY that’s my two cents Quote JimmyRJump wrote: @bchick3That's what I meant with "from the moment there's money involved things go pear-shaped" because you're already on that path with claiming that not getting anything will make you lose the incentive to continue porting. Well, first off, money should NEVER be the incentive, even when you do this for a living, and second, which ties in with the first, until now you did it because you wanted to do it, for free and at no cost, so, why all of a sudden stop when there's no money in it for you?Mind you, when it depended on me, everybody would profit. I was and am speaking from within the proposed system here. I'm not at all proposing that only original modders or porters that make a mod their own by drastic changes should get a share of whatever pecunary amount is available.Also keep in mind that this is not a done deal yet as is. Tinkering will need to and shall be done. Compromises will possibly have to be made. And heads will have to be kept cool when a nice mod -new or ported- that has cost a lot of effort gets only a couple of dozen endorsements and still brings the author zero point whatever in cash...Because it's not like this is gonna make some modders rich and steep others into poverty. In the end, if any kind of benevolent payment is implemented, the differences in bank account levels will be minimum and this whole discussion will probably be looked back upon with weary smiles a few weeks/months from now. Quote bchick3 wrote: Yeah, I probably overreacted a bit. Just got a tiny bit upset that some would think it’s supereasy to port a mod and therefore aren’t entitled to some recompense if folks wanted to do it out of their hearts. I will continue to port mods regardless. It’s hard to say no to someone who is requesting a ported mod when I know how to do it. And the author doesn’t know how or doesn’t want to port Didn’t mean nothing against you. Sorry if it sounded that way. Quote JimmyRJump wrote: No-no-no... I never took it the wrong way or thought you were getting back at me. This is just a discussion, or small debate if you like, hampered by turn-based game-like time-lapses and lack of vocal intonation and body language that often leads to misinterpretation.Don't apologise for making a point which is as valid as what I said (if my point is valid at all, that is). I think we both -and all the people involved- are smart enough to be able to have a pro/contra chat without imagining the other parties sitting at their PC ready to throw some dynamite at the screen. Or maybe they are. If so, we'll propbably read about it in the papers tomorrow... Quote bchick3 wrote: Thanks, I was afraid I was too vocal and embarrassed I might have offended you. You are right about one thing, money does bring the nasty out of people doesn’t it? Quote Levionte wrote: I don't think this is really a problem with the policy. Before you can use someone else's assets or upload their mod in its entirety, you need their permission. If the mod author specifies, during that "transaction" of permissions, a preference regarding donations of any kind, then that preference needs to be honored otherwise you don't have permission. I don't see that anything has changed in that regard. Except, perhaps we all need to review our collaborations when the changes take place to make sure we're all on the same page. However, and with all due respect, porting a mod is "supereasy" compared to making one from scratch. I'm not saying it doesn't take time and some amount of competence to do it, because it does. And I would not necessarily have a problem with someone who ported my mods receiving a profit for their time and energy- which I assume would be negotiated and agreed upon in advance. But, in my experience, porting a mod is absolutely trivial compared to developing one from nothing. And if some creators think that fact is salient to this conversation, I have no issue with that. But, again, that's more relevant to private discussions between collaborators than it is general policy. Quote bchick3 wrote: Levionte, Well it’s not supereasy. And that you would say that is upsetting. Yes I see you ported four of your own mods which maybe is supereasy for you. But I challenge you to try and port a mod that isn’t yours with nothing but the original mod and your wits. Try Tania the hermit from oldrim and then tell me how easy it is! Without looking at my port that is. Or if you want a real challenge, try eomsic yunsol port. That one took three days. But I’m sure you could do it in what, 5 minutes And another thing, me receiving donations does not in the least take away from the authors ability to do so on thier page. They can implement the donations button if they wish. Wether they do or not should not make a difference if I want to on my own page, unless the author doesn’t want me to. And so far only one author has asked me not to accept donations, which I of course compliedjimmyrjump, this is a hornets nest! I haven’t got this riled up in quite a while! Quote FrankFamily wrote: In response to post #56081996. #56082276, #56082736, #56082851, #56104651, #56106911, #56107726, #56108276, #56109611, #56109726, #56109881, #56110486, #56111056, #56112401 are all replies on the same post. Reveal hidden contents Quote JimmyRJump wrote: I like the overall concept, although for SSE this could prove a bit of a hornet's nest with a lot of "modders" adapting restrictionless Skyrim2011 mods for the SE version.What I'd like to know is if folk willing to donate to the pool will be able to do so on an automated basis for a fix amount per month, like the recurring fee paid for Supporter/Premium status? Quote nesbit098 wrote: Interesting point of view.... Quote ousnius wrote: The opt-in will be off by default for each mod page. That means, people won't be allowed to make "points" off of porting SSE mods, unless the author specifically enables the permissions option for it. Quote JimmyRJump wrote: Thanks for the clarifcation, Ousnius. Quote sullyivan wrote: I'd prefer to donate funds directly to the pool on a monthly basis that would be a recurring automated process. This would be a great option. Great idea. Quote bchick3 wrote: I personally don’t see a problem with an sse porter like myself receiving donations this way or the old way. You know it’s not like there is an easy button you press and miraculously an oldrim mod is now an sse mod. It takes hours of work and that’s not including the time it takes to properly support said mod. Please folks don’t be hatin on porters. Quote JimmyRJump wrote: @bchick3Well, for a lot of small mods, the SSECK *IS* a magic button of kinds. I was referring to mods from modders who didn't have any restrictions on what was done with their mods. And with all due respect and certainly without any meaning of spreading *hate*, but whatever the time it takes to port a mod, it's still "just" a port and not original work. If the result of your port differs so much from the original then in my eyes it's no longer a port but a new mod that uses assets from what was the original.If the amount of time spent on doing something should be taken into acount, well, then I want in on the action for spending hours to upload a few screenshots because of going back and forth to get the links for the mods I use in my game that are representative for the way the screenie looks.Again, my comment was absolutely not intended to look down on "porters" but to raise the issue that it could prove more complicated than first thought to sort who is due what and what for. I'm not the kind of guy who's first downloading ported mods like a madman to then form a committee against the people who do the porting. I love mods and appreciate the people putting in the effort, but when it comes to recompense this better be thought out to within the most minute details or we risk running out of modders and porters because they could say, "well, if it's like this then I won't bother anymore". It has always struck me as odd that, from the moment there's money involved, things tend to go pear-shaped because of folk feeling entitled and getting nought, people getting jealous because "they" get some and "we" get nought,etc...The issue at hand is to set up a system that is fair towards everyone, not to start a smearing campaign. We're talking games here, not politics.And as important (to me) is the question about a possible automated contribution from non-modders towards the main pool of septims that will go towards the modders, if/when non-modders will be allowed to contribute money at all. Quote bchick3 wrote: Yeah I see your point and it’s not like I’m getting rich off donations I just dont want porters to get a raw deal here. It really does take some work to get mods ported. I f you don’t believe me give it a try. I’m not saying original authors should not get a percentage. Just that it should be a lower percentage. Otherwise it’s like you said, I will lose incentive to do ports at all. I do want to help people enjoy sse and that’s why I started porting some of the best mods. I have ported over 200 mods and I hate to think that would lose the ability for folks to show thier gratitude. Quite a lot of them were done by request. AnywY that’s my two cents Quote JimmyRJump wrote: @bchick3That's what I meant with "from the moment there's money involved things go pear-shaped" because you're already on that path with claiming that not getting anything will make you lose the incentive to continue porting. Well, first off, money should NEVER be the incentive, even when you do this for a living, and second, which ties in with the first, until now you did it because you wanted to do it, for free and at no cost, so, why all of a sudden stop when there's no money in it for you?Mind you, when it depended on me, everybody would profit. I was and am speaking from within the proposed system here. I'm not at all proposing that only original modders or porters that make a mod their own by drastic changes should get a share of whatever pecunary amount is available.Also keep in mind that this is not a done deal yet as is. Tinkering will need to and shall be done. Compromises will possibly have to be made. And heads will have to be kept cool when a nice mod -new or ported- that has cost a lot of effort gets only a couple of dozen endorsements and still brings the author zero point whatever in cash...Because it's not like this is gonna make some modders rich and steep others into poverty. In the end, if any kind of benevolent payment is implemented, the differences in bank account levels will be minimum and this whole discussion will probably be looked back upon with weary smiles a few weeks/months from now. Quote bchick3 wrote: Yeah, I probably overreacted a bit. Just got a tiny bit upset that some would think it’s supereasy to port a mod and therefore aren’t entitled to some recompense if folks wanted to do it out of their hearts. I will continue to port mods regardless. It’s hard to say no to someone who is requesting a ported mod when I know how to do it. And the author doesn’t know how or doesn’t want to port Didn’t mean nothing against you. Sorry if it sounded that way. Quote JimmyRJump wrote: No-no-no... I never took it the wrong way or thought you were getting back at me. This is just a discussion, or small debate if you like, hampered by turn-based game-like time-lapses and lack of vocal intonation and body language that often leads to misinterpretation.Don't apologise for making a point which is as valid as what I said (if my point is valid at all, that is). I think we both -and all the people involved- are smart enough to be able to have a pro/contra chat without imagining the other parties sitting at their PC ready to throw some dynamite at the screen. Or maybe they are. If so, we'll propbably read about it in the papers tomorrow... Quote bchick3 wrote: Thanks, I was afraid I was too vocal and embarrassed I might have offended you. You are right about one thing, money does bring the nasty out of people doesn’t it? Quote Levionte wrote: I don't think this is really a problem with the policy. Before you can use someone else's assets or upload their mod in its entirety, you need their permission. If the mod author specifies, during that "transaction" of permissions, a preference regarding donations of any kind, then that preference needs to be honored otherwise you don't have permission. I don't see that anything has changed in that regard. Except, perhaps we all need to review our collaborations when the changes take place to make sure we're all on the same page.However, and with all due respect, porting a mod is "supereasy" compared to making one from scratch. I'm not saying it doesn't take time and some amount of competence to do it, because it does. And I would not necessarily have a problem with someone who ported my mods receiving a profit for their time and energy- which I assume would be negotiated and agreed upon in advance. But, in my experience, porting a mod is absolutely trivial compared to developing one from nothing. And if some creators think that fact is salient to this conversation, I have no issue with that. But, again, that's more relevant to private discussions between collaborators than it is general policy. Quote bchick3 wrote: Levionte, Well it’s not supereasy. And that you would say that is upsetting. Yes I see you ported four of your own mods which maybe is supereasy for you. But I challenge you to try and port a mod that isn’t yours with nothing but the original mod and your wits. Try Tania the hermit from oldrim and then tell me how easy it is! Without looking at my port that is. Or if you want a real challenge, try eomsic yunsol port. That one took three days. But I’m sure you could do it in what, 5 minutes And another thing, me receiving donations does not in the least take away from the authors ability to do so on thier page. They can implement the donations button if they wish. Wether they do or not should not make a difference if I want to on my own page, unless the author doesn’t want me to. And so far only one author has asked me not to accept donations, which I of course compliedI do get why saying "that stuff you do is supereasy" could be offensive to someone making it but lets keep things in perspective. Something is "easy" when compared to something harder. Modding is really easy if you compare it with sending a rocket into space. Making a mod is obviously harder than porting it, because otherwise porting would be pointless and people would just re-develop their mods for SSE. Just take, for example, the time you've put as an example of a very hard port, 3 days, that's not actually a lot of time when compared to the time it takes to make most mods. Quote bchick3 wrote: Yeah I’m not trying to say porting a mod is the same as making one. I’m just saying that it’s not as easy as some folks think. Do a few ports and you will see what I mean. Yes, armor and weapons are easy, most of my ports have been followers which are not so easy. And if a porter wants to accept donations from people who appreciate the effort then what’s the harm?I did not mean my statement as a personal attack, nor was it my intention to offend you. But I stand firmly by my points. And, again, this is something that should be negotiated between the original creator and anyone else who wants to use their assets for whatever reason. I have no interest in trying to dictate the terms anyone else agrees to. If you're permitted to receive donations that's great. But it's at the discretion of everyone who's work you used, just like the rest of us. If they tip you for who you are and what you do, great. That's not what this thread is about.In regards to your personal challenges, I would flip the same question onto you. How long would it take you to build one of those mods from nothing? If you asked the creators how long they worked on those mods, I guarantee they would give you a number much larger than three days. But that's really not the point, either.I never said porting mods isn't a valuable skill. We all have our roles to play and they're all important. But using someone else's assets does not give one ownership of them or their copyright. Once money is involved, that becomes an important distinction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankFamily Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 (edited) In response to post #56081996. #56082276, #56082736, #56082851, #56104651, #56106911, #56107726, #56108276, #56109611, #56109726, #56109881, #56110486, #56111056, #56112401, #56113291, #56113516, #56113836 are all replies on the same post. Reveal hidden contents Quote JimmyRJump wrote: I like the overall concept, although for SSE this could prove a bit of a hornet's nest with a lot of "modders" adapting restrictionless Skyrim2011 mods for the SE version.What I'd like to know is if folk willing to donate to the pool will be able to do so on an automated basis for a fix amount per month, like the recurring fee paid for Supporter/Premium status? Quote nesbit098 wrote: Interesting point of view.... Quote ousnius wrote: The opt-in will be off by default for each mod page. That means, people won't be allowed to make "points" off of porting SSE mods, unless the author specifically enables the permissions option for it. Quote JimmyRJump wrote: Thanks for the clarifcation, Ousnius. Quote sullyivan wrote: I'd prefer to donate funds directly to the pool on a monthly basis that would be a recurring automated process. This would be a great option. Great idea. Quote bchick3 wrote: I personally don’t see a problem with an sse porter like myself receiving donations this way or the old way. You know it’s not like there is an easy button you press and miraculously an oldrim mod is now an sse mod. It takes hours of work and that’s not including the time it takes to properly support said mod. Please folks don’t be hatin on porters. Quote JimmyRJump wrote: @bchick3Well, for a lot of small mods, the SSECK *IS* a magic button of kinds. I was referring to mods from modders who didn't have any restrictions on what was done with their mods. And with all due respect and certainly without any meaning of spreading *hate*, but whatever the time it takes to port a mod, it's still "just" a port and not original work. If the result of your port differs so much from the original then in my eyes it's no longer a port but a new mod that uses assets from what was the original.If the amount of time spent on doing something should be taken into acount, well, then I want in on the action for spending hours to upload a few screenshots because of going back and forth to get the links for the mods I use in my game that are representative for the way the screenie looks.Again, my comment was absolutely not intended to look down on "porters" but to raise the issue that it could prove more complicated than first thought to sort who is due what and what for. I'm not the kind of guy who's first downloading ported mods like a madman to then form a committee against the people who do the porting. I love mods and appreciate the people putting in the effort, but when it comes to recompense this better be thought out to within the most minute details or we risk running out of modders and porters because they could say, "well, if it's like this then I won't bother anymore". It has always struck me as odd that, from the moment there's money involved, things tend to go pear-shaped because of folk feeling entitled and getting nought, people getting jealous because "they" get some and "we" get nought,etc...The issue at hand is to set up a system that is fair towards everyone, not to start a smearing campaign. We're talking games here, not politics.And as important (to me) is the question about a possible automated contribution from non-modders towards the main pool of septims that will go towards the modders, if/when non-modders will be allowed to contribute money at all. Quote bchick3 wrote: Yeah I see your point and it’s not like I’m getting rich off donations I just dont want porters to get a raw deal here. It really does take some work to get mods ported. I f you don’t believe me give it a try. I’m not saying original authors should not get a percentage. Just that it should be a lower percentage. Otherwise it’s like you said, I will lose incentive to do ports at all. I do want to help people enjoy sse and that’s why I started porting some of the best mods. I have ported over 200 mods and I hate to think that would lose the ability for folks to show thier gratitude. Quite a lot of them were done by request. AnywY that’s my two cents Quote JimmyRJump wrote: @bchick3That's what I meant with "from the moment there's money involved things go pear-shaped" because you're already on that path with claiming that not getting anything will make you lose the incentive to continue porting. Well, first off, money should NEVER be the incentive, even when you do this for a living, and second, which ties in with the first, until now you did it because you wanted to do it, for free and at no cost, so, why all of a sudden stop when there's no money in it for you?Mind you, when it depended on me, everybody would profit. I was and am speaking from within the proposed system here. I'm not at all proposing that only original modders or porters that make a mod their own by drastic changes should get a share of whatever pecunary amount is available.Also keep in mind that this is not a done deal yet as is. Tinkering will need to and shall be done. Compromises will possibly have to be made. And heads will have to be kept cool when a nice mod -new or ported- that has cost a lot of effort gets only a couple of dozen endorsements and still brings the author zero point whatever in cash...Because it's not like this is gonna make some modders rich and steep others into poverty. In the end, if any kind of benevolent payment is implemented, the differences in bank account levels will be minimum and this whole discussion will probably be looked back upon with weary smiles a few weeks/months from now. Quote bchick3 wrote: Yeah, I probably overreacted a bit. Just got a tiny bit upset that some would think it’s supereasy to port a mod and therefore aren’t entitled to some recompense if folks wanted to do it out of their hearts. I will continue to port mods regardless. It’s hard to say no to someone who is requesting a ported mod when I know how to do it. And the author doesn’t know how or doesn’t want to port Didn’t mean nothing against you. Sorry if it sounded that way. Quote JimmyRJump wrote: No-no-no... I never took it the wrong way or thought you were getting back at me. This is just a discussion, or small debate if you like, hampered by turn-based game-like time-lapses and lack of vocal intonation and body language that often leads to misinterpretation.Don't apologise for making a point which is as valid as what I said (if my point is valid at all, that is). I think we both -and all the people involved- are smart enough to be able to have a pro/contra chat without imagining the other parties sitting at their PC ready to throw some dynamite at the screen. Or maybe they are. If so, we'll propbably read about it in the papers tomorrow... Quote bchick3 wrote: Thanks, I was afraid I was too vocal and embarrassed I might have offended you. You are right about one thing, money does bring the nasty out of people doesn’t it? Quote Levionte wrote: I don't think this is really a problem with the policy. Before you can use someone else's assets or upload their mod in its entirety, you need their permission. If the mod author specifies, during that "transaction" of permissions, a preference regarding donations of any kind, then that preference needs to be honored otherwise you don't have permission. I don't see that anything has changed in that regard. Except, perhaps we all need to review our collaborations when the changes take place to make sure we're all on the same page. However, and with all due respect, porting a mod is "supereasy" compared to making one from scratch. I'm not saying it doesn't take time and some amount of competence to do it, because it does. And I would not necessarily have a problem with someone who ported my mods receiving a profit for their time and energy- which I assume would be negotiated and agreed upon in advance. But, in my experience, porting a mod is absolutely trivial compared to developing one from nothing. And if some creators think that fact is salient to this conversation, I have no issue with that. But, again, that's more relevant to private discussions between collaborators than it is general policy. Quote bchick3 wrote: Levionte, Well it’s not supereasy. And that you would say that is upsetting. Yes I see you ported four of your own mods which maybe is supereasy for you. But I challenge you to try and port a mod that isn’t yours with nothing but the original mod and your wits. Try Tania the hermit from oldrim and then tell me how easy it is! Without looking at my port that is. Or if you want a real challenge, try eomsic yunsol port. That one took three days. But I’m sure you could do it in what, 5 minutes And another thing, me receiving donations does not in the least take away from the authors ability to do so on thier page. They can implement the donations button if they wish. Wether they do or not should not make a difference if I want to on my own page, unless the author doesn’t want me to. And so far only one author has asked me not to accept donations, which I of course compliedjimmyrjump, this is a hornets nest! I haven’t got this riled up in quite a while! Quote FrankFamily wrote: In response to post #56081996. #56082276, #56082736, #56082851, #56104651, #56106911, #56107726, #56108276, #56109611, #56109726, #56109881, #56110486, #56111056, #56112401 are all replies on the same post. Reveal hidden contents Quote JimmyRJump wrote: I like the overall concept, although for SSE this could prove a bit of a hornet's nest with a lot of "modders" adapting restrictionless Skyrim2011 mods for the SE version.What I'd like to know is if folk willing to donate to the pool will be able to do so on an automated basis for a fix amount per month, like the recurring fee paid for Supporter/Premium status? Quote nesbit098 wrote: Interesting point of view.... Quote ousnius wrote: The opt-in will be off by default for each mod page. That means, people won't be allowed to make "points" off of porting SSE mods, unless the author specifically enables the permissions option for it. Quote JimmyRJump wrote: Thanks for the clarifcation, Ousnius. Quote sullyivan wrote: I'd prefer to donate funds directly to the pool on a monthly basis that would be a recurring automated process. This would be a great option. Great idea. Quote bchick3 wrote: I personally don’t see a problem with an sse porter like myself receiving donations this way or the old way. You know it’s not like there is an easy button you press and miraculously an oldrim mod is now an sse mod. It takes hours of work and that’s not including the time it takes to properly support said mod. Please folks don’t be hatin on porters. Quote JimmyRJump wrote: @bchick3Well, for a lot of small mods, the SSECK *IS* a magic button of kinds. I was referring to mods from modders who didn't have any restrictions on what was done with their mods. And with all due respect and certainly without any meaning of spreading *hate*, but whatever the time it takes to port a mod, it's still "just" a port and not original work. If the result of your port differs so much from the original then in my eyes it's no longer a port but a new mod that uses assets from what was the original.If the amount of time spent on doing something should be taken into acount, well, then I want in on the action for spending hours to upload a few screenshots because of going back and forth to get the links for the mods I use in my game that are representative for the way the screenie looks.Again, my comment was absolutely not intended to look down on "porters" but to raise the issue that it could prove more complicated than first thought to sort who is due what and what for. I'm not the kind of guy who's first downloading ported mods like a madman to then form a committee against the people who do the porting. I love mods and appreciate the people putting in the effort, but when it comes to recompense this better be thought out to within the most minute details or we risk running out of modders and porters because they could say, "well, if it's like this then I won't bother anymore". It has always struck me as odd that, from the moment there's money involved, things tend to go pear-shaped because of folk feeling entitled and getting nought, people getting jealous because "they" get some and "we" get nought,etc...The issue at hand is to set up a system that is fair towards everyone, not to start a smearing campaign. We're talking games here, not politics.And as important (to me) is the question about a possible automated contribution from non-modders towards the main pool of septims that will go towards the modders, if/when non-modders will be allowed to contribute money at all. Quote bchick3 wrote: Yeah I see your point and it’s not like I’m getting rich off donations I just dont want porters to get a raw deal here. It really does take some work to get mods ported. I f you don’t believe me give it a try. I’m not saying original authors should not get a percentage. Just that it should be a lower percentage. Otherwise it’s like you said, I will lose incentive to do ports at all. I do want to help people enjoy sse and that’s why I started porting some of the best mods. I have ported over 200 mods and I hate to think that would lose the ability for folks to show thier gratitude. Quite a lot of them were done by request. AnywY that’s my two cents Quote JimmyRJump wrote: @bchick3That's what I meant with "from the moment there's money involved things go pear-shaped" because you're already on that path with claiming that not getting anything will make you lose the incentive to continue porting. Well, first off, money should NEVER be the incentive, even when you do this for a living, and second, which ties in with the first, until now you did it because you wanted to do it, for free and at no cost, so, why all of a sudden stop when there's no money in it for you?Mind you, when it depended on me, everybody would profit. I was and am speaking from within the proposed system here. I'm not at all proposing that only original modders or porters that make a mod their own by drastic changes should get a share of whatever pecunary amount is available.Also keep in mind that this is not a done deal yet as is. Tinkering will need to and shall be done. Compromises will possibly have to be made. And heads will have to be kept cool when a nice mod -new or ported- that has cost a lot of effort gets only a couple of dozen endorsements and still brings the author zero point whatever in cash...Because it's not like this is gonna make some modders rich and steep others into poverty. In the end, if any kind of benevolent payment is implemented, the differences in bank account levels will be minimum and this whole discussion will probably be looked back upon with weary smiles a few weeks/months from now. Quote bchick3 wrote: Yeah, I probably overreacted a bit. Just got a tiny bit upset that some would think it’s supereasy to port a mod and therefore aren’t entitled to some recompense if folks wanted to do it out of their hearts. I will continue to port mods regardless. It’s hard to say no to someone who is requesting a ported mod when I know how to do it. And the author doesn’t know how or doesn’t want to port Didn’t mean nothing against you. Sorry if it sounded that way. Quote JimmyRJump wrote: No-no-no... I never took it the wrong way or thought you were getting back at me. This is just a discussion, or small debate if you like, hampered by turn-based game-like time-lapses and lack of vocal intonation and body language that often leads to misinterpretation.Don't apologise for making a point which is as valid as what I said (if my point is valid at all, that is). I think we both -and all the people involved- are smart enough to be able to have a pro/contra chat without imagining the other parties sitting at their PC ready to throw some dynamite at the screen. Or maybe they are. If so, we'll propbably read about it in the papers tomorrow... Quote bchick3 wrote: Thanks, I was afraid I was too vocal and embarrassed I might have offended you. You are right about one thing, money does bring the nasty out of people doesn’t it? Quote Levionte wrote: I don't think this is really a problem with the policy. Before you can use someone else's assets or upload their mod in its entirety, you need their permission. If the mod author specifies, during that "transaction" of permissions, a preference regarding donations of any kind, then that preference needs to be honored otherwise you don't have permission. I don't see that anything has changed in that regard. Except, perhaps we all need to review our collaborations when the changes take place to make sure we're all on the same page.However, and with all due respect, porting a mod is "supereasy" compared to making one from scratch. I'm not saying it doesn't take time and some amount of competence to do it, because it does. And I would not necessarily have a problem with someone who ported my mods receiving a profit for their time and energy- which I assume would be negotiated and agreed upon in advance. But, in my experience, porting a mod is absolutely trivial compared to developing one from nothing. And if some creators think that fact is salient to this conversation, I have no issue with that. But, again, that's more relevant to private discussions between collaborators than it is general policy. Quote bchick3 wrote: Levionte, Well it’s not supereasy. And that you would say that is upsetting. Yes I see you ported four of your own mods which maybe is supereasy for you. But I challenge you to try and port a mod that isn’t yours with nothing but the original mod and your wits. Try Tania the hermit from oldrim and then tell me how easy it is! Without looking at my port that is. Or if you want a real challenge, try eomsic yunsol port. That one took three days. But I’m sure you could do it in what, 5 minutes And another thing, me receiving donations does not in the least take away from the authors ability to do so on thier page. They can implement the donations button if they wish. Wether they do or not should not make a difference if I want to on my own page, unless the author doesn’t want me to. And so far only one author has asked me not to accept donations, which I of course compliedI do get why saying "that stuff you do is supereasy" could be offensive to someone making it but lets keep things in perspective. Something is "easy" when compared to something harder. Modding is really easy if you compare it with sending a rocket into space. Making a mod is obviously harder than porting it, because otherwise porting would be pointless and people would just re-develop their mods for SSE. Just take, for example, the time you've put as an example of a very hard port, 3 days, that's not actually a lot of time when compared to the time it takes to make most mods. Quote bchick3 wrote: Yeah I’m not trying to say porting a mod is the same as making one. I’m just saying that it’s not as easy as some folks think. Do a few ports and you will see what I mean. Yes, armor and weapons are easy, most of my ports have been followers which are not so easy. And if a porter wants to accept donations from people who appreciate the effort then what’s the harm? Quote Levionte wrote: I did not mean my statement as a personal attack, nor was it my intention to offend you. But I stand firmly by my points. And, again, this is something that should be negotiated between the original creator and anyone else who wants to use their assets for whatever reason. I have no interest in trying to dictate the terms anyone else agrees to. If you're permitted to receive donations that's great. But it's at the discretion of everyone who's work you used, just like the rest of us. If they tip you for who you are and what you do, great. That's not what this thread is about.In regards to your personal challenges, I would flip the same question onto you. How long would it take you to build one of those mods from nothing? If you asked the creators how long they worked on those mods, I guarantee they would give you a number much larger than three days. But that's really not the point, either.I never said porting mods isn't a valuable skill. We all have our roles to play and they're all important. But using someone else's assets does not give one ownership of them or their copyright. Once money is involved, that becomes an important distinction. There's no harm at all as long as the maker of the mod that was ported is ok with it. And yeah, not all porting is equal, porting my mods is trivial for example, other types are probably harder. It's not good to trivialize the difficulty of what someone does but lets not inflate it either. Porting any given mod is neccessarily easier than making it given similar skill-level and knowledge between the original modder and the one porting, that's what I'm saying. Sentences like "I’m not saying original authors should not get a percentage. Just that it should be a lower percentage." kind of sound like porting deserves more reward than whoever made it originally, one could guess because it supposedly takes more effort/skill? Which defeats logic. In any case, whatever splitting of the points a port gets will be what was agreed between the porter and whoever made the original mod. Permissions are the key. I don't think the nexus should get into "this is a port, thefore it gets X% of the points" or stuff like that. That's up to the authors of both the mod and the port to make an agreement.Another thought regarding "And if a porter wants to accept donations from people who appreciate the effort then what’s the harm?":What are people truly appreciating? What are they donating to really?. The porting effort or the actual result which is the ported mod? And that's the thing, porting takes effort, certainly, but the downloads a mod gets don't depend on that effort, they depend on the mod itself which is the results of both the effort of the original modder and whoever ported it. And most certainly the latter is considerably smaller but unless an agreement is made between the authors, he gets all the reward. That's where the "problem" appears. Edited December 20, 2017 by FrankFamily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bchick3 Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 (edited) In response to post #56081996. #56082276, #56082736, #56082851, #56104651, #56106911, #56107726, #56108276, #56109611, #56109726, #56109881, #56110486, #56111056, #56112401, #56113291, #56113516, #56113836, #56113921 are all replies on the same post. Reveal hidden contents Quote JimmyRJump wrote: I like the overall concept, although for SSE this could prove a bit of a hornet's nest with a lot of "modders" adapting restrictionless Skyrim2011 mods for the SE version.What I'd like to know is if folk willing to donate to the pool will be able to do so on an automated basis for a fix amount per month, like the recurring fee paid for Supporter/Premium status? Quote nesbit098 wrote: Interesting point of view.... Quote ousnius wrote: The opt-in will be off by default for each mod page. That means, people won't be allowed to make "points" off of porting SSE mods, unless the author specifically enables the permissions option for it. Quote JimmyRJump wrote: Thanks for the clarifcation, Ousnius. Quote sullyivan wrote: I'd prefer to donate funds directly to the pool on a monthly basis that would be a recurring automated process. This would be a great option. Great idea. Quote bchick3 wrote: I personally don’t see a problem with an sse porter like myself receiving donations this way or the old way. You know it’s not like there is an easy button you press and miraculously an oldrim mod is now an sse mod. It takes hours of work and that’s not including the time it takes to properly support said mod. Please folks don’t be hatin on porters. Quote JimmyRJump wrote: @bchick3Well, for a lot of small mods, the SSECK *IS* a magic button of kinds. I was referring to mods from modders who didn't have any restrictions on what was done with their mods. And with all due respect and certainly without any meaning of spreading *hate*, but whatever the time it takes to port a mod, it's still "just" a port and not original work. If the result of your port differs so much from the original then in my eyes it's no longer a port but a new mod that uses assets from what was the original.If the amount of time spent on doing something should be taken into acount, well, then I want in on the action for spending hours to upload a few screenshots because of going back and forth to get the links for the mods I use in my game that are representative for the way the screenie looks.Again, my comment was absolutely not intended to look down on "porters" but to raise the issue that it could prove more complicated than first thought to sort who is due what and what for. I'm not the kind of guy who's first downloading ported mods like a madman to then form a committee against the people who do the porting. I love mods and appreciate the people putting in the effort, but when it comes to recompense this better be thought out to within the most minute details or we risk running out of modders and porters because they could say, "well, if it's like this then I won't bother anymore". It has always struck me as odd that, from the moment there's money involved, things tend to go pear-shaped because of folk feeling entitled and getting nought, people getting jealous because "they" get some and "we" get nought,etc...The issue at hand is to set up a system that is fair towards everyone, not to start a smearing campaign. We're talking games here, not politics.And as important (to me) is the question about a possible automated contribution from non-modders towards the main pool of septims that will go towards the modders, if/when non-modders will be allowed to contribute money at all. Quote bchick3 wrote: Yeah I see your point and it’s not like I’m getting rich off donations I just dont want porters to get a raw deal here. It really does take some work to get mods ported. I f you don’t believe me give it a try. I’m not saying original authors should not get a percentage. Just that it should be a lower percentage. Otherwise it’s like you said, I will lose incentive to do ports at all. I do want to help people enjoy sse and that’s why I started porting some of the best mods. I have ported over 200 mods and I hate to think that would lose the ability for folks to show thier gratitude. Quite a lot of them were done by request. AnywY that’s my two cents Quote JimmyRJump wrote: @bchick3That's what I meant with "from the moment there's money involved things go pear-shaped" because you're already on that path with claiming that not getting anything will make you lose the incentive to continue porting. Well, first off, money should NEVER be the incentive, even when you do this for a living, and second, which ties in with the first, until now you did it because you wanted to do it, for free and at no cost, so, why all of a sudden stop when there's no money in it for you?Mind you, when it depended on me, everybody would profit. I was and am speaking from within the proposed system here. I'm not at all proposing that only original modders or porters that make a mod their own by drastic changes should get a share of whatever pecunary amount is available.Also keep in mind that this is not a done deal yet as is. Tinkering will need to and shall be done. Compromises will possibly have to be made. And heads will have to be kept cool when a nice mod -new or ported- that has cost a lot of effort gets only a couple of dozen endorsements and still brings the author zero point whatever in cash...Because it's not like this is gonna make some modders rich and steep others into poverty. In the end, if any kind of benevolent payment is implemented, the differences in bank account levels will be minimum and this whole discussion will probably be looked back upon with weary smiles a few weeks/months from now. Quote bchick3 wrote: Yeah, I probably overreacted a bit. Just got a tiny bit upset that some would think it’s supereasy to port a mod and therefore aren’t entitled to some recompense if folks wanted to do it out of their hearts. I will continue to port mods regardless. It’s hard to say no to someone who is requesting a ported mod when I know how to do it. And the author doesn’t know how or doesn’t want to port Didn’t mean nothing against you. Sorry if it sounded that way. Quote JimmyRJump wrote: No-no-no... I never took it the wrong way or thought you were getting back at me. This is just a discussion, or small debate if you like, hampered by turn-based game-like time-lapses and lack of vocal intonation and body language that often leads to misinterpretation.Don't apologise for making a point which is as valid as what I said (if my point is valid at all, that is). I think we both -and all the people involved- are smart enough to be able to have a pro/contra chat without imagining the other parties sitting at their PC ready to throw some dynamite at the screen. Or maybe they are. If so, we'll propbably read about it in the papers tomorrow... Quote bchick3 wrote: Thanks, I was afraid I was too vocal and embarrassed I might have offended you. You are right about one thing, money does bring the nasty out of people doesn’t it? Quote Levionte wrote: I don't think this is really a problem with the policy. Before you can use someone else's assets or upload their mod in its entirety, you need their permission. If the mod author specifies, during that "transaction" of permissions, a preference regarding donations of any kind, then that preference needs to be honored otherwise you don't have permission. I don't see that anything has changed in that regard. Except, perhaps we all need to review our collaborations when the changes take place to make sure we're all on the same page. However, and with all due respect, porting a mod is "supereasy" compared to making one from scratch. I'm not saying it doesn't take time and some amount of competence to do it, because it does. And I would not necessarily have a problem with someone who ported my mods receiving a profit for their time and energy- which I assume would be negotiated and agreed upon in advance. But, in my experience, porting a mod is absolutely trivial compared to developing one from nothing. And if some creators think that fact is salient to this conversation, I have no issue with that. But, again, that's more relevant to private discussions between collaborators than it is general policy. Quote bchick3 wrote: Levionte, Well it’s not supereasy. And that you would say that is upsetting. Yes I see you ported four of your own mods which maybe is supereasy for you. But I challenge you to try and port a mod that isn’t yours with nothing but the original mod and your wits. Try Tania the hermit from oldrim and then tell me how easy it is! Without looking at my port that is. Or if you want a real challenge, try eomsic yunsol port. That one took three days. But I’m sure you could do it in what, 5 minutes And another thing, me receiving donations does not in the least take away from the authors ability to do so on thier page. They can implement the donations button if they wish. Wether they do or not should not make a difference if I want to on my own page, unless the author doesn’t want me to. And so far only one author has asked me not to accept donations, which I of course compliedjimmyrjump, this is a hornets nest! I haven’t got this riled up in quite a while! Quote FrankFamily wrote: In response to post #56081996. #56082276, #56082736, #56082851, #56104651, #56106911, #56107726, #56108276, #56109611, #56109726, #56109881, #56110486, #56111056, #56112401 are all replies on the same post. Reveal hidden contents Quote JimmyRJump wrote: I like the overall concept, although for SSE this could prove a bit of a hornet's nest with a lot of "modders" adapting restrictionless Skyrim2011 mods for the SE version.What I'd like to know is if folk willing to donate to the pool will be able to do so on an automated basis for a fix amount per month, like the recurring fee paid for Supporter/Premium status? Quote nesbit098 wrote: Interesting point of view.... Quote ousnius wrote: The opt-in will be off by default for each mod page. That means, people won't be allowed to make "points" off of porting SSE mods, unless the author specifically enables the permissions option for it. Quote JimmyRJump wrote: Thanks for the clarifcation, Ousnius. Quote sullyivan wrote: I'd prefer to donate funds directly to the pool on a monthly basis that would be a recurring automated process. This would be a great option. Great idea. Quote bchick3 wrote: I personally don’t see a problem with an sse porter like myself receiving donations this way or the old way. You know it’s not like there is an easy button you press and miraculously an oldrim mod is now an sse mod. It takes hours of work and that’s not including the time it takes to properly support said mod. Please folks don’t be hatin on porters. Quote JimmyRJump wrote: @bchick3Well, for a lot of small mods, the SSECK *IS* a magic button of kinds. I was referring to mods from modders who didn't have any restrictions on what was done with their mods. And with all due respect and certainly without any meaning of spreading *hate*, but whatever the time it takes to port a mod, it's still "just" a port and not original work. If the result of your port differs so much from the original then in my eyes it's no longer a port but a new mod that uses assets from what was the original.If the amount of time spent on doing something should be taken into acount, well, then I want in on the action for spending hours to upload a few screenshots because of going back and forth to get the links for the mods I use in my game that are representative for the way the screenie looks.Again, my comment was absolutely not intended to look down on "porters" but to raise the issue that it could prove more complicated than first thought to sort who is due what and what for. I'm not the kind of guy who's first downloading ported mods like a madman to then form a committee against the people who do the porting. I love mods and appreciate the people putting in the effort, but when it comes to recompense this better be thought out to within the most minute details or we risk running out of modders and porters because they could say, "well, if it's like this then I won't bother anymore". It has always struck me as odd that, from the moment there's money involved, things tend to go pear-shaped because of folk feeling entitled and getting nought, people getting jealous because "they" get some and "we" get nought,etc...The issue at hand is to set up a system that is fair towards everyone, not to start a smearing campaign. We're talking games here, not politics.And as important (to me) is the question about a possible automated contribution from non-modders towards the main pool of septims that will go towards the modders, if/when non-modders will be allowed to contribute money at all. Quote bchick3 wrote: Yeah I see your point and it’s not like I’m getting rich off donations I just dont want porters to get a raw deal here. It really does take some work to get mods ported. I f you don’t believe me give it a try. I’m not saying original authors should not get a percentage. Just that it should be a lower percentage. Otherwise it’s like you said, I will lose incentive to do ports at all. I do want to help people enjoy sse and that’s why I started porting some of the best mods. I have ported over 200 mods and I hate to think that would lose the ability for folks to show thier gratitude. Quite a lot of them were done by request. AnywY that’s my two cents Quote JimmyRJump wrote: @bchick3That's what I meant with "from the moment there's money involved things go pear-shaped" because you're already on that path with claiming that not getting anything will make you lose the incentive to continue porting. Well, first off, money should NEVER be the incentive, even when you do this for a living, and second, which ties in with the first, until now you did it because you wanted to do it, for free and at no cost, so, why all of a sudden stop when there's no money in it for you?Mind you, when it depended on me, everybody would profit. I was and am speaking from within the proposed system here. I'm not at all proposing that only original modders or porters that make a mod their own by drastic changes should get a share of whatever pecunary amount is available.Also keep in mind that this is not a done deal yet as is. Tinkering will need to and shall be done. Compromises will possibly have to be made. And heads will have to be kept cool when a nice mod -new or ported- that has cost a lot of effort gets only a couple of dozen endorsements and still brings the author zero point whatever in cash...Because it's not like this is gonna make some modders rich and steep others into poverty. In the end, if any kind of benevolent payment is implemented, the differences in bank account levels will be minimum and this whole discussion will probably be looked back upon with weary smiles a few weeks/months from now. Quote bchick3 wrote: Yeah, I probably overreacted a bit. Just got a tiny bit upset that some would think it’s supereasy to port a mod and therefore aren’t entitled to some recompense if folks wanted to do it out of their hearts. I will continue to port mods regardless. It’s hard to say no to someone who is requesting a ported mod when I know how to do it. And the author doesn’t know how or doesn’t want to port Didn’t mean nothing against you. Sorry if it sounded that way. Quote JimmyRJump wrote: No-no-no... I never took it the wrong way or thought you were getting back at me. This is just a discussion, or small debate if you like, hampered by turn-based game-like time-lapses and lack of vocal intonation and body language that often leads to misinterpretation.Don't apologise for making a point which is as valid as what I said (if my point is valid at all, that is). I think we both -and all the people involved- are smart enough to be able to have a pro/contra chat without imagining the other parties sitting at their PC ready to throw some dynamite at the screen. Or maybe they are. If so, we'll propbably read about it in the papers tomorrow... Quote bchick3 wrote: Thanks, I was afraid I was too vocal and embarrassed I might have offended you. You are right about one thing, money does bring the nasty out of people doesn’t it? Quote Levionte wrote: I don't think this is really a problem with the policy. Before you can use someone else's assets or upload their mod in its entirety, you need their permission. If the mod author specifies, during that "transaction" of permissions, a preference regarding donations of any kind, then that preference needs to be honored otherwise you don't have permission. I don't see that anything has changed in that regard. Except, perhaps we all need to review our collaborations when the changes take place to make sure we're all on the same page.However, and with all due respect, porting a mod is "supereasy" compared to making one from scratch. I'm not saying it doesn't take time and some amount of competence to do it, because it does. And I would not necessarily have a problem with someone who ported my mods receiving a profit for their time and energy- which I assume would be negotiated and agreed upon in advance. But, in my experience, porting a mod is absolutely trivial compared to developing one from nothing. And if some creators think that fact is salient to this conversation, I have no issue with that. But, again, that's more relevant to private discussions between collaborators than it is general policy. Quote bchick3 wrote: Levionte, Well it’s not supereasy. And that you would say that is upsetting. Yes I see you ported four of your own mods which maybe is supereasy for you. But I challenge you to try and port a mod that isn’t yours with nothing but the original mod and your wits. Try Tania the hermit from oldrim and then tell me how easy it is! Without looking at my port that is. Or if you want a real challenge, try eomsic yunsol port. That one took three days. But I’m sure you could do it in what, 5 minutes And another thing, me receiving donations does not in the least take away from the authors ability to do so on thier page. They can implement the donations button if they wish. Wether they do or not should not make a difference if I want to on my own page, unless the author doesn’t want me to. And so far only one author has asked me not to accept donations, which I of course compliedI do get why saying "that stuff you do is supereasy" could be offensive to someone making it but lets keep things in perspective. Something is "easy" when compared to something harder. Modding is really easy if you compare it with sending a rocket into space. Making a mod is obviously harder than porting it, because otherwise porting would be pointless and people would just re-develop their mods for SSE. Just take, for example, the time you've put as an example of a very hard port, 3 days, that's not actually a lot of time when compared to the time it takes to make most mods. Quote bchick3 wrote: Yeah I’m not trying to say porting a mod is the same as making one. I’m just saying that it’s not as easy as some folks think. Do a few ports and you will see what I mean. Yes, armor and weapons are easy, most of my ports have been followers which are not so easy. And if a porter wants to accept donations from people who appreciate the effort then what’s the harm? Quote Levionte wrote: I did not mean my statement as a personal attack, nor was it my intention to offend you. But I stand firmly by my points. And, again, this is something that should be negotiated between the original creator and anyone else who wants to use their assets for whatever reason. I have no interest in trying to dictate the terms anyone else agrees to. If you're permitted to receive donations that's great. But it's at the discretion of everyone who's work you used, just like the rest of us. If they tip you for who you are and what you do, great. That's not what this thread is about.In regards to your personal challenges, I would flip the same question onto you. How long would it take you to build one of those mods from nothing? If you asked the creators how long they worked on those mods, I guarantee they would give you a number much larger than three days. But that's really not the point, either.I never said porting mods isn't a valuable skill. We all have our roles to play and they're all important. But using someone else's assets does not give one ownership of them or their copyright. Once money is involved, that becomes an important distinction. Quote FrankFamily wrote: There's no harm at all as long as the maker of the mod that was ported is ok with it. And yeah, not all porting is equal, porting my mods is trivial for example, other types are probably harder. It's not good to trivialize the difficulty of what someone does but lets not inflate it either. Porting any given mod is neccessarily easier than making it given similar skill-level and knowledge between the original modder and the one porting, that's what I'm saying. Sentences like "I’m not saying original authors should not get a percentage. Just that it should be a lower percentage." kind of sound like porting deserves more reward than whoever made it originally, one could guess because it supposedly takes more effort/skill? Which defeats logic. In any case, whatever splitting of the points a port gets will be what was agreed between the porter and whoever made the original mod. Permissions are the key. I don't think the nexus should get into "this is a port, thefore it gets X% of the points" or stuff like that. That's up to the authors of both the mod and the port to make an agreement.Another thought regarding "And if a porter wants to accept donations from people who appreciate the effort then what’s the harm?":What are people truly appreciating? What are they donating to really?. The porting effort or the actual result which is the ported mod? And that's the thing, porting takes effort, certainly, but the downloads a mod gets don't depend on that effort, they depend on the mod itself which is the results of both the effort of the original modder and whoever ported it. And most certainly the latter is considerably smaller but unless an agreement is made between the authors, he gets all the reward. That's where the "problem" appears.You make good point there frank. And you too levionte. Really doesn’t matter what I or you think anyway. It will be what it will be. It’s the nexus gods that will decide what is fair and equitable. Just wanted my hearing and I’ve had my say. Edited December 20, 2017 by bchick3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Idiomic Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 In response to post #56081996. #56082276, #56082736, #56082851, #56104651, #56106911, #56107726, #56108276, #56109611, #56109726, #56109881, #56110486, #56111056, #56112401, #56113291, #56113516, #56113836, #56113921, #56114506 are all replies on the same post. Reveal hidden contents Quote JimmyRJump wrote: I like the overall concept, although for SSE this could prove a bit of a hornet's nest with a lot of "modders" adapting restrictionless Skyrim2011 mods for the SE version.What I'd like to know is if folk willing to donate to the pool will be able to do so on an automated basis for a fix amount per month, like the recurring fee paid for Supporter/Premium status? Quote nesbit098 wrote: Interesting point of view.... Quote ousnius wrote: The opt-in will be off by default for each mod page. That means, people won't be allowed to make "points" off of porting SSE mods, unless the author specifically enables the permissions option for it. Quote JimmyRJump wrote: Thanks for the clarifcation, Ousnius. Quote sullyivan wrote: I'd prefer to donate funds directly to the pool on a monthly basis that would be a recurring automated process. This would be a great option. Great idea. Quote bchick3 wrote: I personally don’t see a problem with an sse porter like myself receiving donations this way or the old way. You know it’s not like there is an easy button you press and miraculously an oldrim mod is now an sse mod. It takes hours of work and that’s not including the time it takes to properly support said mod. Please folks don’t be hatin on porters. Quote JimmyRJump wrote: @bchick3Well, for a lot of small mods, the SSECK *IS* a magic button of kinds. I was referring to mods from modders who didn't have any restrictions on what was done with their mods. And with all due respect and certainly without any meaning of spreading *hate*, but whatever the time it takes to port a mod, it's still "just" a port and not original work. If the result of your port differs so much from the original then in my eyes it's no longer a port but a new mod that uses assets from what was the original.If the amount of time spent on doing something should be taken into acount, well, then I want in on the action for spending hours to upload a few screenshots because of going back and forth to get the links for the mods I use in my game that are representative for the way the screenie looks.Again, my comment was absolutely not intended to look down on "porters" but to raise the issue that it could prove more complicated than first thought to sort who is due what and what for. I'm not the kind of guy who's first downloading ported mods like a madman to then form a committee against the people who do the porting. I love mods and appreciate the people putting in the effort, but when it comes to recompense this better be thought out to within the most minute details or we risk running out of modders and porters because they could say, "well, if it's like this then I won't bother anymore". It has always struck me as odd that, from the moment there's money involved, things tend to go pear-shaped because of folk feeling entitled and getting nought, people getting jealous because "they" get some and "we" get nought,etc...The issue at hand is to set up a system that is fair towards everyone, not to start a smearing campaign. We're talking games here, not politics.And as important (to me) is the question about a possible automated contribution from non-modders towards the main pool of septims that will go towards the modders, if/when non-modders will be allowed to contribute money at all. Quote bchick3 wrote: Yeah I see your point and it’s not like I’m getting rich off donations I just dont want porters to get a raw deal here. It really does take some work to get mods ported. I f you don’t believe me give it a try. I’m not saying original authors should not get a percentage. Just that it should be a lower percentage. Otherwise it’s like you said, I will lose incentive to do ports at all. I do want to help people enjoy sse and that’s why I started porting some of the best mods. I have ported over 200 mods and I hate to think that would lose the ability for folks to show thier gratitude. Quite a lot of them were done by request. AnywY that’s my two cents Quote JimmyRJump wrote: @bchick3That's what I meant with "from the moment there's money involved things go pear-shaped" because you're already on that path with claiming that not getting anything will make you lose the incentive to continue porting. Well, first off, money should NEVER be the incentive, even when you do this for a living, and second, which ties in with the first, until now you did it because you wanted to do it, for free and at no cost, so, why all of a sudden stop when there's no money in it for you?Mind you, when it depended on me, everybody would profit. I was and am speaking from within the proposed system here. I'm not at all proposing that only original modders or porters that make a mod their own by drastic changes should get a share of whatever pecunary amount is available.Also keep in mind that this is not a done deal yet as is. Tinkering will need to and shall be done. Compromises will possibly have to be made. And heads will have to be kept cool when a nice mod -new or ported- that has cost a lot of effort gets only a couple of dozen endorsements and still brings the author zero point whatever in cash...Because it's not like this is gonna make some modders rich and steep others into poverty. In the end, if any kind of benevolent payment is implemented, the differences in bank account levels will be minimum and this whole discussion will probably be looked back upon with weary smiles a few weeks/months from now. Quote bchick3 wrote: Yeah, I probably overreacted a bit. Just got a tiny bit upset that some would think it’s supereasy to port a mod and therefore aren’t entitled to some recompense if folks wanted to do it out of their hearts. I will continue to port mods regardless. It’s hard to say no to someone who is requesting a ported mod when I know how to do it. And the author doesn’t know how or doesn’t want to port Didn’t mean nothing against you. Sorry if it sounded that way. Quote JimmyRJump wrote: No-no-no... I never took it the wrong way or thought you were getting back at me. This is just a discussion, or small debate if you like, hampered by turn-based game-like time-lapses and lack of vocal intonation and body language that often leads to misinterpretation.Don't apologise for making a point which is as valid as what I said (if my point is valid at all, that is). I think we both -and all the people involved- are smart enough to be able to have a pro/contra chat without imagining the other parties sitting at their PC ready to throw some dynamite at the screen. Or maybe they are. If so, we'll propbably read about it in the papers tomorrow... Quote bchick3 wrote: Thanks, I was afraid I was too vocal and embarrassed I might have offended you. You are right about one thing, money does bring the nasty out of people doesn’t it? Quote Levionte wrote: I don't think this is really a problem with the policy. Before you can use someone else's assets or upload their mod in its entirety, you need their permission. If the mod author specifies, during that "transaction" of permissions, a preference regarding donations of any kind, then that preference needs to be honored otherwise you don't have permission. I don't see that anything has changed in that regard. Except, perhaps we all need to review our collaborations when the changes take place to make sure we're all on the same page. However, and with all due respect, porting a mod is "supereasy" compared to making one from scratch. I'm not saying it doesn't take time and some amount of competence to do it, because it does. And I would not necessarily have a problem with someone who ported my mods receiving a profit for their time and energy- which I assume would be negotiated and agreed upon in advance. But, in my experience, porting a mod is absolutely trivial compared to developing one from nothing. And if some creators think that fact is salient to this conversation, I have no issue with that. But, again, that's more relevant to private discussions between collaborators than it is general policy. Quote bchick3 wrote: Levionte, Well it’s not supereasy. And that you would say that is upsetting. Yes I see you ported four of your own mods which maybe is supereasy for you. But I challenge you to try and port a mod that isn’t yours with nothing but the original mod and your wits. Try Tania the hermit from oldrim and then tell me how easy it is! Without looking at my port that is. Or if you want a real challenge, try eomsic yunsol port. That one took three days. But I’m sure you could do it in what, 5 minutes And another thing, me receiving donations does not in the least take away from the authors ability to do so on thier page. They can implement the donations button if they wish. Wether they do or not should not make a difference if I want to on my own page, unless the author doesn’t want me to. And so far only one author has asked me not to accept donations, which I of course compliedjimmyrjump, this is a hornets nest! I haven’t got this riled up in quite a while! Quote FrankFamily wrote: In response to post #56081996. #56082276, #56082736, #56082851, #56104651, #56106911, #56107726, #56108276, #56109611, #56109726, #56109881, #56110486, #56111056, #56112401 are all replies on the same post. Reveal hidden contents Quote JimmyRJump wrote: I like the overall concept, although for SSE this could prove a bit of a hornet's nest with a lot of "modders" adapting restrictionless Skyrim2011 mods for the SE version.What I'd like to know is if folk willing to donate to the pool will be able to do so on an automated basis for a fix amount per month, like the recurring fee paid for Supporter/Premium status? Quote nesbit098 wrote: Interesting point of view.... Quote ousnius wrote: The opt-in will be off by default for each mod page. That means, people won't be allowed to make "points" off of porting SSE mods, unless the author specifically enables the permissions option for it. Quote JimmyRJump wrote: Thanks for the clarifcation, Ousnius. Quote sullyivan wrote: I'd prefer to donate funds directly to the pool on a monthly basis that would be a recurring automated process. This would be a great option. Great idea. Quote bchick3 wrote: I personally don’t see a problem with an sse porter like myself receiving donations this way or the old way. You know it’s not like there is an easy button you press and miraculously an oldrim mod is now an sse mod. It takes hours of work and that’s not including the time it takes to properly support said mod. Please folks don’t be hatin on porters. Quote JimmyRJump wrote: @bchick3Well, for a lot of small mods, the SSECK *IS* a magic button of kinds. I was referring to mods from modders who didn't have any restrictions on what was done with their mods. And with all due respect and certainly without any meaning of spreading *hate*, but whatever the time it takes to port a mod, it's still "just" a port and not original work. If the result of your port differs so much from the original then in my eyes it's no longer a port but a new mod that uses assets from what was the original.If the amount of time spent on doing something should be taken into acount, well, then I want in on the action for spending hours to upload a few screenshots because of going back and forth to get the links for the mods I use in my game that are representative for the way the screenie looks.Again, my comment was absolutely not intended to look down on "porters" but to raise the issue that it could prove more complicated than first thought to sort who is due what and what for. I'm not the kind of guy who's first downloading ported mods like a madman to then form a committee against the people who do the porting. I love mods and appreciate the people putting in the effort, but when it comes to recompense this better be thought out to within the most minute details or we risk running out of modders and porters because they could say, "well, if it's like this then I won't bother anymore". It has always struck me as odd that, from the moment there's money involved, things tend to go pear-shaped because of folk feeling entitled and getting nought, people getting jealous because "they" get some and "we" get nought,etc...The issue at hand is to set up a system that is fair towards everyone, not to start a smearing campaign. We're talking games here, not politics.And as important (to me) is the question about a possible automated contribution from non-modders towards the main pool of septims that will go towards the modders, if/when non-modders will be allowed to contribute money at all. Quote bchick3 wrote: Yeah I see your point and it’s not like I’m getting rich off donations I just dont want porters to get a raw deal here. It really does take some work to get mods ported. I f you don’t believe me give it a try. I’m not saying original authors should not get a percentage. Just that it should be a lower percentage. Otherwise it’s like you said, I will lose incentive to do ports at all. I do want to help people enjoy sse and that’s why I started porting some of the best mods. I have ported over 200 mods and I hate to think that would lose the ability for folks to show thier gratitude. Quite a lot of them were done by request. AnywY that’s my two cents Quote JimmyRJump wrote: @bchick3That's what I meant with "from the moment there's money involved things go pear-shaped" because you're already on that path with claiming that not getting anything will make you lose the incentive to continue porting. Well, first off, money should NEVER be the incentive, even when you do this for a living, and second, which ties in with the first, until now you did it because you wanted to do it, for free and at no cost, so, why all of a sudden stop when there's no money in it for you?Mind you, when it depended on me, everybody would profit. I was and am speaking from within the proposed system here. I'm not at all proposing that only original modders or porters that make a mod their own by drastic changes should get a share of whatever pecunary amount is available.Also keep in mind that this is not a done deal yet as is. Tinkering will need to and shall be done. Compromises will possibly have to be made. And heads will have to be kept cool when a nice mod -new or ported- that has cost a lot of effort gets only a couple of dozen endorsements and still brings the author zero point whatever in cash...Because it's not like this is gonna make some modders rich and steep others into poverty. In the end, if any kind of benevolent payment is implemented, the differences in bank account levels will be minimum and this whole discussion will probably be looked back upon with weary smiles a few weeks/months from now. Quote bchick3 wrote: Yeah, I probably overreacted a bit. Just got a tiny bit upset that some would think it’s supereasy to port a mod and therefore aren’t entitled to some recompense if folks wanted to do it out of their hearts. I will continue to port mods regardless. It’s hard to say no to someone who is requesting a ported mod when I know how to do it. And the author doesn’t know how or doesn’t want to port Didn’t mean nothing against you. Sorry if it sounded that way. Quote JimmyRJump wrote: No-no-no... I never took it the wrong way or thought you were getting back at me. This is just a discussion, or small debate if you like, hampered by turn-based game-like time-lapses and lack of vocal intonation and body language that often leads to misinterpretation.Don't apologise for making a point which is as valid as what I said (if my point is valid at all, that is). I think we both -and all the people involved- are smart enough to be able to have a pro/contra chat without imagining the other parties sitting at their PC ready to throw some dynamite at the screen. Or maybe they are. If so, we'll propbably read about it in the papers tomorrow... Quote bchick3 wrote: Thanks, I was afraid I was too vocal and embarrassed I might have offended you. You are right about one thing, money does bring the nasty out of people doesn’t it? Quote Levionte wrote: I don't think this is really a problem with the policy. Before you can use someone else's assets or upload their mod in its entirety, you need their permission. If the mod author specifies, during that "transaction" of permissions, a preference regarding donations of any kind, then that preference needs to be honored otherwise you don't have permission. I don't see that anything has changed in that regard. Except, perhaps we all need to review our collaborations when the changes take place to make sure we're all on the same page.However, and with all due respect, porting a mod is "supereasy" compared to making one from scratch. I'm not saying it doesn't take time and some amount of competence to do it, because it does. And I would not necessarily have a problem with someone who ported my mods receiving a profit for their time and energy- which I assume would be negotiated and agreed upon in advance. But, in my experience, porting a mod is absolutely trivial compared to developing one from nothing. And if some creators think that fact is salient to this conversation, I have no issue with that. But, again, that's more relevant to private discussions between collaborators than it is general policy. Quote bchick3 wrote: Levionte, Well it’s not supereasy. And that you would say that is upsetting. Yes I see you ported four of your own mods which maybe is supereasy for you. But I challenge you to try and port a mod that isn’t yours with nothing but the original mod and your wits. Try Tania the hermit from oldrim and then tell me how easy it is! Without looking at my port that is. Or if you want a real challenge, try eomsic yunsol port. That one took three days. But I’m sure you could do it in what, 5 minutes And another thing, me receiving donations does not in the least take away from the authors ability to do so on thier page. They can implement the donations button if they wish. Wether they do or not should not make a difference if I want to on my own page, unless the author doesn’t want me to. And so far only one author has asked me not to accept donations, which I of course compliedI do get why saying "that stuff you do is supereasy" could be offensive to someone making it but lets keep things in perspective. Something is "easy" when compared to something harder. Modding is really easy if you compare it with sending a rocket into space. Making a mod is obviously harder than porting it, because otherwise porting would be pointless and people would just re-develop their mods for SSE. Just take, for example, the time you've put as an example of a very hard port, 3 days, that's not actually a lot of time when compared to the time it takes to make most mods. Quote bchick3 wrote: Yeah I’m not trying to say porting a mod is the same as making one. I’m just saying that it’s not as easy as some folks think. Do a few ports and you will see what I mean. Yes, armor and weapons are easy, most of my ports have been followers which are not so easy. And if a porter wants to accept donations from people who appreciate the effort then what’s the harm? Quote Levionte wrote: I did not mean my statement as a personal attack, nor was it my intention to offend you. But I stand firmly by my points. And, again, this is something that should be negotiated between the original creator and anyone else who wants to use their assets for whatever reason. I have no interest in trying to dictate the terms anyone else agrees to. If you're permitted to receive donations that's great. But it's at the discretion of everyone who's work you used, just like the rest of us. If they tip you for who you are and what you do, great. That's not what this thread is about.In regards to your personal challenges, I would flip the same question onto you. How long would it take you to build one of those mods from nothing? If you asked the creators how long they worked on those mods, I guarantee they would give you a number much larger than three days. But that's really not the point, either.I never said porting mods isn't a valuable skill. We all have our roles to play and they're all important. But using someone else's assets does not give one ownership of them or their copyright. Once money is involved, that becomes an important distinction. Quote FrankFamily wrote: There's no harm at all as long as the maker of the mod that was ported is ok with it. And yeah, not all porting is equal, porting my mods is trivial for example, other types are probably harder. It's not good to trivialize the difficulty of what someone does but lets not inflate it either. Porting any given mod is neccessarily easier than making it given similar skill-level and knowledge between the original modder and the one porting, that's what I'm saying. Sentences like "I’m not saying original authors should not get a percentage. Just that it should be a lower percentage." kind of sound like porting deserves more reward than whoever made it originally, one could guess because it supposedly takes more effort/skill? Which defeats logic. In any case, whatever splitting of the points a port gets will be what was agreed between the porter and whoever made the original mod. Permissions are the key. I don't think the nexus should get into "this is a port, thefore it gets X% of the points" or stuff like that. That's up to the authors of both the mod and the port to make an agreement.Another thought regarding "And if a porter wants to accept donations from people who appreciate the effort then what’s the harm?":What are people truly appreciating? What are they donating to really?. The porting effort or the actual result which is the ported mod? And that's the thing, porting takes effort, certainly, but the downloads a mod gets don't depend on that effort, they depend on the mod itself which is the results of both the effort of the original modder and whoever ported it. And most certainly the latter is considerably smaller but unless an agreement is made between the authors, he gets all the reward. That's where the "problem" appears. Quote bchick3 wrote: You make good point there frank. And you too levionte. Really doesn’t matter what I or you think anyway. It will be what it will be. It’s the nexus gods that will decide what is fair and equitable. Just wanted my hearing and I’ve had my say.@bchick3I agree with you, there's still plenty of Oldrim mods that are yet to be ported to SSE. A couple little QoL mods that I'm in love with for Oldrim, are doubled torch/magelight radius and no-motion-blur Night Vision. No problem with netting a little DP here and there for helping to bring SSE on-par with Oldrim.One small problem that can arise though, is when multiple people try porting the same mod to SSE from Oldrim. Probably best resolved by "who uploaded it first." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illage2 Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 So we'll now have to pay for mods? I'm confused on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urielz Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 What a great idea! I think (hope) this will bring new life into the community... much needed in these times of petty business practices by Bethesda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urielz Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 In response to post #56117386. Reveal hidden contents Quote illage2 wrote: So we'll now have to pay for mods? I'm confused on this.No you won't. You can donate/contribute money to the pool, but only if you wish to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edsh0t Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 (edited) In response to post #56103671. #56104066, #56106576 are all replies on the same post. Reveal hidden contents Quote Edsh0t wrote: While I agree with many here that wish that we went back to the good ol' days where people simply shared for the sake of sharing and anything online was free, the dull, hard reality is that we live in a global capitalistic society, an increasingly capitalistic society at that. As such i think its only fair that the people that put their time, effort and money into bringing joy and novelty into our games get some sort of recognition and perhaps monetary compensation. A patreon would be nice,but having a system from the site itself, like they are proposing, is way better.I know my opinion doesn't count much, since I'm a user and not a modder, but I find the fact that the Nexus team is willing to pony up cash themselves for this is a great gesture. As for the comments about popularity and the like, well, modding popularity IS earned through quality, so there's that. As for the hostile modders and users, simply ignore them? It's what I do, and honestly they seem like a vast minority. Quote Ethreon wrote: Nostalgia goggles are a fine piece innit? People always cared about what's theirs, and sharing was never happening to any great extents. We've always tried to find ways to make something out of our hobbies and passions. Quote zlycher wrote: From the glass half full perspective, I hope that this sort of rewards system will encourage a new set of quality mods and authors that wouldn't have stepped into the scene otherwise. Hard to say how it all will play out, but I think it's worth a shot.Well I do suppose time has rose-tinted my view, or perhaps back then I just didn't notice.However you cannot deny that the search for monetary compensation as become a bit more frantic, or "loud", possibly due to the times we live in.But I have to agree with zlycher and take a glass half full approach. That things needed to change in nexus was a fact, since the alterations made by the corporations (AKA CreationClub and the like) Are...less than perfect. Compared to that, this move by the nexus team is at the very least a step in a good direction. And hey, they shared the idea ahead of time and are willing to hear us rant on and on, taking ideas where they can. Edited December 20, 2017 by Edsh0t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edsh0t Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 In response to post #56117386. #56117496 is also a reply to the same post. Reveal hidden contents Quote illage2 wrote: So we'll now have to pay for mods? I'm confused on this. Quote urielz wrote: No you won't. You can donate/contribute money to the pool, but only if you wish to do so.Basically they expanded upon the Donation mechanic, using their own money as a base, so that every modder gets a lil bit of something. Mods will still be very much free on our end, but as always you can donate to the modder directly, or if you simply want to incentivize modding in general, you can donate to the Money Pool. But mods are, and always be, free on Nexus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edsh0t Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 In response to post #56111671. #56111901, #56112331 are all replies on the same post. Reveal hidden contents Quote Genamine wrote: The only issue I can see with this is that popularity and amount of work put into something are completely different metricsNot to mention the fact that large projects often require continuous development, while not necessarily yielding any more unique downloads for the extra time spent on itWhats to keep people from pumping out easy to make but popular mods (like clothing and cosmetic mods) at an industrial rate?If based on unique downloads on a per-page basis, that would strongly discourage authors to continue work on existing mods, which will yield only recurring downloads from the same set of usersYou would be far better off farming as many unique downloads from as many separate mod pages as possible Quote Dark0ne wrote: This presupposes a couple of things.First, that all mod authors only mod for money/financial gain. We currently have over 240,000 mods on Nexus Mods that were all uploaded on the complete understanding that there would be practically zero financial gain from doing so, thus, I think it's silly to assume all mod authors are instantly going to only give a damn about the Donation Points they receive, which in the grand scheme of things won't be much, instead of focusing on what they always focused on, which is making mods they enjoy making and sharing with others.Second, that some mod authors "pumping out easy to make but popular mods" is a particularly bad thing. If the quality is good and its stuff people want (and typically popular mods tend to be of a certain quality anyway), more mods is not a bad thing, it's a good thing. Quote Genamine wrote: No, you are correct, Im not under the assumption any current mod authors are in any way in it for the moneyOn the contrary in fact, theyve proven that muchWhat I moreso had in mind was if it might bring in new authors that do create content for money if given the opportunityMonetary gain certainly does promote quality, but isnt that not more of a good thing for users and a bad thing for small authors?Not because it makes their work less good than it currently is, but because it might discourage them from uploading their workEither way, Im interested to see what this will bring for the communityMaybe Im completely wrong and itll bring a healthy boost in morale for popular authors, with all thats been going on with mod theft and suchI do believe the fear with this system is that it kinda promote quick mods, and punish long-term big projects, like Fallout4 New Vegas. Then again said big projects do tend to be popular due to the quality and ambition, so hopefully it balances out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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