Limited Vortex alpha release today, full release soon

[Robbie922004]

In response to post #57227931. #57228261, #57231896, #57231991, #57232121, #57237146, #57239481, #57239706, #57240016 are all replies on the same post.

Robbie922004 wrote: I understand that Vortex doesn't have any method to manually rearrange your load order, and I'm baffled. It's the single most basic feature of any mod manager. I can't imagine ever using this until that's implemented.

It's a shame too, because a lot of the other features sound really great!

Dark0ne wrote: Until you use it properly and actually let yourself try and learn it, you can't judge.

We're talking about the creator of MO, the software that everyone sings the praises of, thinking this is the best way of doing things. I/we certainly haven't told him to use this system, he's decided this system will be the most powerful and useful system moving forward, and you owe it to yourself, and him, to give it a go before you judge it.

Most of the people I've seen commenting negatively about it have instantly decided they don't like it because it does things differently in some areas, without even fully trying it or understanding why it has been done this way. It's rather silly.

Hopefully once we're fully released and we can get some documentation out with it (and YouTube tutorials) people will understand why Tannin has chosen this system. For now, it's actually more important for us to see how people use Vortex without any documentation so we can know what is intuitive, what isn't, and what people are getting stuck on.

ContessaR wrote: Sorry but you don't have to use something to know that taking control away from users is not the way to go. I don't want someone deciding for me what's the best way to deal with my load orders. I do not understand why taking control away from people is seen as a positive. Complicated load orders with merged mods and shaky conflicts require us to manually be able to work with load orders.

And yes he created MO (something I wish had never been abandoned by him but that's another conversation) and in MO we have total control over what files go where and what we do with our load orders... it's a huge reason why people sing the praises of it.

Dark0ne wrote:

Sorry but you don't have to use something to know that taking control away from users is not the way to go

You clearly do, because Vortex does not take control away, it just changes the way in which you can control things in a much more logical way for load orders.

ContessaR wrote: I really hope so. I know I sound negative but I will give it a chance when I can personally. It just sounds really annoying and convoluted when dragging and dropping plugins was much faster and easier to deal with.

Oblitus wrote: > We're talking about the creator of MO, the software that everyone sings the praises of

That is because MO is great, while Vortex is awful in every single aspect. Vortex is kind of usable when you use a dozen of simple mods, but when your mod list counts hundreds of mods, and a lot of them has to be fine-tuned to work together, Vortex just doesn't provide necessary instruments. Add awkward and slow interface, lack of control everywhere and you get typical proprietary application made by people who never actually use it themselves not to be actually good, but to supplement something else. I've honestly tried to use it, and it was straightforwardly painful experience.

Arthmoor wrote:

You clearly do, because Vortex does not take control away, it just changes the way in which you can control things in a much more logical way for load orders.

Maybe people are reporting it wrong, but it's my understanding from folks who have tried it that the only way to adjust load order is to run LOOT and then set manual sorting rules on anything that's not handled correctly. Manually dragging and dropping mods to new positions is not a feature.

If this is the case I can't see this going very far. Being able to manually adjust load order by drag n drop is considered a basic feature for any mod manager. LOOT simply won't cut it because it's not supposed to be the end of the process, merely the starting point.

Lumpyacidfish wrote: Also saying its the creator of MO isnt a valid point. Good inventors have created bad stuff before.

simsrw73 wrote: I don't think it's possible yet to judge how far it will go. When I initially read that you can't manually order mods, my heart dropped. I haven't got to use it yet and am not privy to future directions, but I have begun to rethink it. I think most would agree that the IDEAL would be to simply install mods we want and play without worrying about it. One button install a mod and don't think more about it. More like a package manager such as deb, apt or chocolatey. Vortex seems like a possible path forward toward that goal. Letting users manually change order would preclude that possibility.

I think I read a post earlier that stated that they hoped to build a database of dependencies and relationships that would be the rules to make this a full blown package manager. I manually do this myself lately using XMind, create nodes for each mod with subnodes or relationship lines for Requires, Recommends, Addon, Configures, LoadBefore, LoadAfter, Patches, Compatible, Incompatible, PartiallyCompatible, etc. Those are the rules I use to build my mod configuration. Most of that could totally be automated. But for that to work, users, including me, will have to learn to step back a bit. It's not easy when you love micromanaging the configuration like I do; I didn't even use loot on most of the configs because I like understanding and ordering everything myself.

I don't know if that is the direction this is headed, but just a thought... And I recognize that even a full package manager can't handle all of the processes necessary to building some configs, but it could do a lot.

Vortex seems like a possible path forward toward that goal. Letting users manually change order would preclude that possibility.

I don't see how. Providing the option to rearrange mods doesn't mean that people are forced to use the feature. The automated approach being the default is a good idea, but the option to go in and fine tune without having to set LOOT priorities would be ideal.

Even the games themselves (Bethesda titles, XCOM) let you change your load order manually. I can already change the LOOT sorting rules if that's what I need to do, but without being able to manually re-order my .esps, it just adds an extra step of needing to start the game in order to do it when I need to do that. It could be right there in the mod manager like all the other mod managers! I adjust my load order very frequently during development/testing of my own mods, and when testing others, so this is kind of a deal breaker for me. Edited February 2, 2018 by Robbie922004

[RockGodOne]

In response to post #57234786. #57235026, #57235566 are all replies on the same post.

Ethreon wrote: Well I've given my feedback. Overall I am not happy with Vortex and I've uninstalled it. Feel free to distribute my spot if that's a thing.

RockGodOne wrote: Since we both have tried and disliked Vortex then uninstalled it, could you tell me how to reapply my profile to NMM so I can start using NMM again?

Ethreon wrote: No idea, mine seems to be just fine. Have you uninstalled all the mods before using Vortex?

no I didn't, but reinstalling NMM seemed to fix my issue with all my mods even still intact.

[RockGodOne]

In response to post #57234346. #57236346 is also a reply to the same post.

RockGodOne wrote: I got Vortex yesterday but its so confusing compared to NMM even tho it looks so simple. No fomod support? And it's an all or nothing system for mods that alter many files? So I can no longer use more than 1 NPC makeover mod or i'll have tons of black faces.

For those HUGE reasons, I uninstalled Vortex, but how do I go back to NMM? I still have all my mods installed and activated in NMM, but I can no longer download mods and when I launch SSE with SKSE64 and try to load up a save, it tells me I have no mods installed.

mario58791 wrote: It has FOMOD support but it doesn't work when you import mods. It work if you download the mod from the website perfectly.

well thats ridiculous. whats the point of importing mods then if i cant choose options?

and then trying to make a clean profile of non imported mods so I could start from scratch, it still gave me all the plugins from my imported mods from my initial profile.

[Oblitus]

In response to post #57227931. #57228261, #57231896, #57231991, #57232121, #57237146, #57239481, #57239706, #57240016, #57242146 are all replies on the same post.

Robbie922004 wrote: I understand that Vortex doesn't have any method to manually rearrange your load order, and I'm baffled. It's the single most basic feature of any mod manager. I can't imagine ever using this until that's implemented.

It's a shame too, because a lot of the other features sound really great!

Dark0ne wrote: Until you use it properly and actually let yourself try and learn it, you can't judge.

We're talking about the creator of MO, the software that everyone sings the praises of, thinking this is the best way of doing things. I/we certainly haven't told him to use this system, he's decided this system will be the most powerful and useful system moving forward, and you owe it to yourself, and him, to give it a go before you judge it.

Most of the people I've seen commenting negatively about it have instantly decided they don't like it because it does things differently in some areas, without even fully trying it or understanding why it has been done this way. It's rather silly.

Hopefully once we're fully released and we can get some documentation out with it (and YouTube tutorials) people will understand why Tannin has chosen this system. For now, it's actually more important for us to see how people use Vortex without any documentation so we can know what is intuitive, what isn't, and what people are getting stuck on.

ContessaR wrote: Sorry but you don't have to use something to know that taking control away from users is not the way to go. I don't want someone deciding for me what's the best way to deal with my load orders. I do not understand why taking control away from people is seen as a positive. Complicated load orders with merged mods and shaky conflicts require us to manually be able to work with load orders.

And yes he created MO (something I wish had never been abandoned by him but that's another conversation) and in MO we have total control over what files go where and what we do with our load orders... it's a huge reason why people sing the praises of it.

Dark0ne wrote:

Sorry but you don't have to use something to know that taking control away from users is not the way to go

You clearly do, because Vortex does not take control away, it just changes the way in which you can control things in a much more logical way for load orders.

ContessaR wrote: I really hope so. I know I sound negative but I will give it a chance when I can personally. It just sounds really annoying and convoluted when dragging and dropping plugins was much faster and easier to deal with.

Oblitus wrote: > We're talking about the creator of MO, the software that everyone sings the praises of

That is because MO is great, while Vortex is awful in every single aspect. Vortex is kind of usable when you use a dozen of simple mods, but when your mod list counts hundreds of mods, and a lot of them has to be fine-tuned to work together, Vortex just doesn't provide necessary instruments. Add awkward and slow interface, lack of control everywhere and you get typical proprietary application made by people who never actually use it themselves not to be actually good, but to supplement something else. I've honestly tried to use it, and it was straightforwardly painful experience.

Arthmoor wrote:

You clearly do, because Vortex does not take control away, it just changes the way in which you can control things in a much more logical way for load orders.

Maybe people are reporting it wrong, but it's my understanding from folks who have tried it that the only way to adjust load order is to run LOOT and then set manual sorting rules on anything that's not handled correctly. Manually dragging and dropping mods to new positions is not a feature.

If this is the case I can't see this going very far. Being able to manually adjust load order by drag n drop is considered a basic feature for any mod manager. LOOT simply won't cut it because it's not supposed to be the end of the process, merely the starting point.

Lumpyacidfish wrote: Also saying its the creator of MO isnt a valid point. Good inventors have created bad stuff before.

simsrw73 wrote: I don't think it's possible yet to judge how far it will go. When I initially read that you can't manually order mods, my heart dropped. I haven't got to use it yet and am not privy to future directions, but I have begun to rethink it. I think most would agree that the IDEAL would be to simply install mods we want and play without worrying about it. One button install a mod and don't think more about it. More like a package manager such as deb, apt or chocolatey. Vortex seems like a possible path forward toward that goal. Letting users manually change order would preclude that possibility.

I think I read a post earlier that stated that they hoped to build a database of dependencies and relationships that would be the rules to make this a full blown package manager. I manually do this myself lately using XMind, create nodes for each mod with subnodes or relationship lines for Requires, Recommends, Addon, Configures, LoadBefore, LoadAfter, Patches, Compatible, Incompatible, PartiallyCompatible, etc. Those are the rules I use to build my mod configuration. Most of that could totally be automated. But for that to work, users, including me, will have to learn to step back a bit. It's not easy when you love micromanaging the configuration like I do; I didn't even use loot on most of the configs because I like understanding and ordering everything myself.

I don't know if that is the direction this is headed, but just a thought... And I recognize that even a full package manager can't handle all of the processes necessary to building some configs, but it could do a lot.

Robbie922004 wrote:

Vortex seems like a possible path forward toward that goal. Letting users manually change order would preclude that possibility.

I don't see how. Providing the option to rearrange mods doesn't mean that people are forced to use the feature. The automated approach being the default is a good idea, but the option to go in and fine tune without having to set LOOT priorities would be ideal.

Even the games themselves (Bethesda titles, XCOM) let you change your load order manually. I can already change the LOOT sorting rules if that's what I need to do, but without being able to manually re-order my .esps, it just adds an extra step of needing to start the game in order to do it when I need to do that. It could be right there in the mod manager like all the other mod managers! I adjust my load order very frequently during development/testing of my own mods, and when testing others, so this is kind of a deal breaker for me.

Fully automated package manager could work, but it won't without enforcing some rules to modders.
- No incremental mod updates or a system to do it automatically. Different main files should only be used to handle different standalone branches of the mod (like lite and full). Every mod should be downloaded in one click and updated in the background.
- Fully automated compatibility patch handling. Patches should be deployed by Vortex, not by the scripted installer (it can only handle specific install order) and not manually (it's a mess). Optional files should not exist at all.
The current implementation of Vortex is terrible in handling this, and it is a very common case. That's a bare minimum since there would also be a lot of cases where you still have to change things manually. Handling conflicts, making own patches, etc.

[JimmyRJump]

Went to bed around midnight with the message that downloads for Vortex were closed "for the night" and now (five in the morning) all downloads are closed until the release proper? Nice. Not.

 

I feel you should either have kept schtumm about the alpha version and let a select few test it through private contact or release the alpha version for everyone to "enjoy". Reading some of the comments, however, maybe it's better that this premature baby gets handled by an unsuspecting few.

 

O-well... Vortex will make it's red carpet entry with press conference aft, soon enough now, I guess.

[kanisiba]

Dark0ne wrote:

 

You clearly do, because Vortex does not take control away, it just changes the way in which you can control things in a much more logical way for load orders.

Logical way is not best way, It seems to merely take away from user freedom of choice . If its attitude doesn't change, Vortex won't be alternative to MO.

Edited February 2, 2018 by kanisiba

[Tannin42]

 

In response to post #57227931. #57228261, #57231896, #57231991, #57232121, #57237146 are all replies on the same post.

Maybe people are reporting it wrong, but it's my understanding from folks who have tried it that the only way to adjust load order is to run LOOT and then set manual sorting rules on anything that's not handled correctly. Manually dragging and dropping mods to new positions is not a feature.

 

If this is the case I can't see this going very far. Being able to manually adjust load order by drag n drop is considered a basic feature for any mod manager. LOOT simply won't cut it because it's not supposed to be the end of the process, merely the starting point.

 

 

No, you can set sorting rules inside Vortex through a drag&drop interface. Or you can set multiple rules at once (click on dependency icon, click edit, check all the mods that the selected one needs to go after, confirm). Or you set global priorities.

The sorting itself then happens automatically as necessary (e.g. before starting the game) but you can also manually trigger it (and disable the automatism).

 

This is system may be different from what users are used to but for the vast majority of users it will be quicker and more robust because

a) you can rerun loot after adding more mods without losing your manual adjustments because loot doesn't replace your adjustments any more

b) you can disable mods or temporarily uninstall them and when they're back, the sort will put them into the place you put them

c) You only enforce the dependencies you actually care about, so when setting rules you can focus on the plugins in question

d) For less experienced users it will usually just work

 

Yes, it is something you have to get used to. Yes, it may be offputting if you're used to (and have the knowledge to) manually arrange all plugins. And yes, it will be more work up front.

But if you're a normal user and have to rearrange only a few of your plugins this will save you time and grieve in the long run.

 

And besides my hope is that this will make it easier to share knowledge. That is: If there is a pair of plugins that loot doesn't arrange correctly, currently a mod author will probably put it into the mod description, hoping users will read it and then everyone has to do the ordering themselves.

When people set up rules in vortex, my hope is that more of these rules get committed to the loot masterlist and thereby shared with the rest of the community. (Vortex doesn't currently support this, but a "propose this rule for the masterlist" button shouldn't be too complicated)

[Deleted48943468User]

its all going down on the 12th this month then i wonder if they going to redesign the forums as well i wonder

[sopmac45]

In response to post #57246031.

Tannin42 wrote:

 

In response to post #57227931. #57228261, #57231896, #57231991, #57232121, #57237146 are all replies on the same post.

Maybe people are reporting it wrong, but it's my understanding from folks who have tried it that the only way to adjust load order is to run LOOT and then set manual sorting rules on anything that's not handled correctly. Manually dragging and dropping mods to new positions is not a feature.

If this is the case I can't see this going very far. Being able to manually adjust load order by drag n drop is considered a basic feature for any mod manager. LOOT simply won't cut it because it's not supposed to be the end of the process, merely the starting point.

 

 

No, you can set sorting rules inside Vortex through a drag&drop interface. Or you can set multiple rules at once (click on dependency icon, click edit, check all the mods that the selected one needs to go after, confirm). Or you set global priorities.

The sorting itself then happens automatically as necessary (e.g. before starting the game) but you can also manually trigger it (and disable the automatism).

 

This is system may be different from what users are used to but for the vast majority of users it will be quicker and more robust because

a) you can rerun loot after adding more mods without losing your manual adjustments because loot doesn't replace your adjustments any more

b) you can disable mods or temporarily uninstall them and when they're back, the sort will put them into the place you put them

c) You only enforce the dependencies you actually care about, so when setting rules you can focus on the plugins in question

d) For less experienced users it will usually just work

 

Yes, it is something you have to get used to. Yes, it may be offputting if you're used to (and have the knowledge to) manually arrange all plugins. And yes, it will be more work up front.

But if you're a normal user and have to rearrange only a few of your plugins this will save you time and grieve in the long run.

 

And besides my hope is that this will make it easier to share knowledge. That is: If there is a pair of plugins that loot doesn't arrange correctly, currently a mod author will probably put it into the mod description, hoping users will read it and then everyone has to do the ordering themselves.

When people set up rules in vortex, my hope is that more of these rules get committed to the loot masterlist and thereby shared with the rest of the community. (Vortex doesn't currently support this, but a "propose this rule for the masterlist" button shouldn't be too complicated)

Thanks so much Tannin42 ....
""No, you can set sorting rules inside Vortex through a drag&drop interface. Or you can set multiple rules at once (click on dependency icon, click edit, check all the mods that the selected one needs to go after, confirm). Or you set global priorities.
The sorting itself then happens automatically as necessary (e.g. before starting the game) but you can also manually trigger it (and disable the automatism)."""

... for an experienced player, the above should be simple. However, those are few in compare to the vast majority of players than do not know anything about dependencies or which mod should go first and / or last. It will be a headache for the great majority instead a nice interaction with the program which should translate in a much better experience to play the game.

I do agree with you that players must read the mod descriptions to find out the mod author suggestions about load order and compatibilities .. but, not all of the mods out there include those important recommendations. The other thing is that Vortex should sort the load order automatically based on dependencies that we, the players, should not deal with it .. UNLESS we have the knowledge ( Vortex already has this function but should be optional and one of the necessary steps to setup the load order in the first place ); from that standpoint, we should be able to manually place some mods in the right load order based on what the mod author suggested, save the profile and if you add more mods, that new mod SHOULD be added automatically in the right / correct load order without interfering with game codes.

I do not know if what I suggested is possible. Perhaps, each modder should add a code in their mods that should be read by Vortex and base on that code ( dependency ), Vortex will place that mod, in the right load order. Let' say that this mod falls into the Environmental category, then, it should be placed kind of on the top of the load order after the Bug Fixes category ( unofficial patch, etc ) automatically by Vortex. How to automate this ? For me, the mod author should include a code ( previously arranged by you Tanning, with some kind of link or something that Vortex use to place that mod in the correct load order based on what the mod author has written thru his/her code inside the mod ) and then Vortex will just place it accordingly. If a mod requires to be placed on the top / bottom of the load order, then, the mod author should also write the code inside their mod so Vortex will read it, apply it and place it in the right load order.

NMM does this to a certain point. For example, Lanterns of Skyrim, as soon as you add this mod, NMM place it on the very top and above the Unofficial Patch. So, my question and my concern is that all mods ( and this is a job not for you but modders, but obviously, because you are Vortex's dad, it should come from you the type of code that should be written in every single mod so Vortex can apply it to the right load order ) should include that code. If a mod does not include that code, then Vortex should reject it.

Yes, a lot of modders will be complaining about this but if you want your mod to be loaded and endorsed, then do your best for your mod to work properly. It should not be the other way around and place the ball in the player's field ( you need to read this or that, you need to do this or that, watch tutorials, learn, - NOTE ON THIS : I am not against it, on the contrary but again, it should come from top to bottom not the other way IMHO ). Think about the thousands of players that just want a program that automatically order his/her mods accordingly ? Others more experienced, should also have all the tweaks and functions at their disposal to do whatever they want but again, those are a few in compare. I am leaning toward the majority on this.

For me as any other player, a proper load order is a must have and Vortex, somehow, one way or another, should do this for all of us. Honestly, LOOT should be integrated automatically inside Vortex, so no more hitting LOOT to apply load orders. Possible ? Absolutely possible and you know it better than me. But Vortex should be much better than LOOT in the way that I mentioned above.

Forgive me if I am not making any sense here or asking for something that is not possible from programming standpoint. I know it is possible because I study programming long ago but for other reasons in my life, I could not continue but I kind of understand programming. The most important think in NMM, MO ( I never used it btw ) and now Vortex, is to be able to arrange our load order accordingly and automatically. Same concept about cars : some are automatic and some are manuals. It is up to the person who will buy a car if that person prefers automatic or not. We should please both sides Tannin. If Vortex already include that feature, please forgive me and thanks again for your hard work. :)

[kamikatze13]

Having missed the opportunity to get under the precious 1000, I had to quench my thirst by looking for screenshots of Vortex, and the first thing that struck me in particular:

 

We now have a bunch of tabs.

We have a `Mods` tab and a `Plugins` tab - but we do have to swtich between them, i.e. we do not have them side-by-side, correct?

And to access tools, we head over to the `Dashboard`?

 

What is the reasoning behind this? Cause my HCI prof would be steaming if he'd seen this UI design.