Limited Vortex alpha release today, full release soon

[cortex56]

This is becoming painful to read. If you put 20 people in a room, and ask one question, you will get 20 different answers and an arguement.

The Nexus team is giving software to 14,000,000 members. How can you even begin to please them all?

 

I have been using Vortex for a couple days now and I actually like the new mod ordering method of setting rules on a per mod basis, because it never changes unless you change it. Another thing, there is two different ways to manually order mods.

 

You can run LOOT 100 times, install and remove mods, the mods you set the rules for never change position unless you update the rules. Doing something one time, beats having to do that everytime you run LOOT.

 

As far as the work space being inefficient - Good Lord! Give me a break. I like the new Dashboard and the widgets. I see a lot of potential for expansion there. The tool buttons are clean and easy to setup and right there with the game you are working with.

The plugins tab is fine for me. I like being able to double click a esp and get information for it. Same with the mods tab.

 

I intentionally installed two mods I know to conflict. Vortex gave me the information that they have 24 conflicting files, and named the files. Now I have to make a choice. Which mod do I want to win the conflict?

Well, I didn't want to make that choice. I wanted my cake and eat it also. Now the one thing that Vortex does not offer is a file by file choice for over write. Therefore, I either have to make a choice for which mods wins or -

I have to open the mods and pick the files from Mod A the 24 conflicting files and place the ones I want into the Mod B folders. This will happen with mods that use loose files. Cherry picking file by file is not handled in Vortex.

This will effect very few users out of the 14,000,000 that recieve Vortex for FREE.

 

There is a learning curve for Vortex as there is with any new software you use. I know people are comfortable with MO and NMM because they have been around forever. But like anything else, they have become out dated.

 

My suggestion is; use Vortex for a few days. Don't just look at one feature and say I don't like it. Didn't your mother ever tell you to try a taste of food before you say you don't like something?

The file by file over write not being a feature of Vortex is going to effect some people adversly. However, if you were one of the ones, picking file by file over write, I'm sure you are intelligent enough to switch and swap files in loose packed mods.

The wonderful thing about Vortex is, it tells you exactly which files are the ones you are looking for. No guessing.

 

I know some are complaining who have not had the opportunity to even use Vortex yet. Wait until it comes out, then try it, then make your negative or positive comment.

 

Now I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, but Vortex is becoming very easy for me to navigate and figure out. I'm pretty sure once you spend some time with it, you will learn that it is more powerful than you think at this point.

 

Just my humble opinion, please don't beat me up or throw sticks at me. Just give Vortex some time and play with it a little before you make up your mind that you don't like it.

 

Kudos Tannin and Team

[Tannin42]

In response to post #57254046.

lasse1001 wrote: I have read some comments about Vortex now and I don't understand why it can't have a tick -box with 'I'm an experienced user' during the installation to allow for more/other options within the manager? I understand that it should be easy to use for 'newbies' and that's a very good idea, but limiting all user into the 'easy' version isn't very friendly. Let those that want to change the installation folder, manage their loadorder themselves and so on do that, and everybody will be happy. (?) There's to much of 'We know what's best for you' going on on the net in anyway. Peace out.

We've already decided there will be an installer that lets you select the target folder.

managing the load order: This has nothing to do with easy mode or not, you can change your load order, just the mechanism you do it by is different. This solution is no less powerful than what existed before. Arguing this is patronising is the same as arguing other mod managers are patronising because they don't work like vortex.
It's two ways of achieving the same thing, we believe this one is the superior one in the long run both in functionality and ease of use, not sacrificing one for the other.

People try to make this about newbie vs advanced but that's nonsense, it's about whether you're willing to give something new a chance or not.

[madpaddy]

In response to post #57254046. #57254611 is also a reply to the same post.

lasse1001 wrote: I have read some comments about Vortex now and I don't understand why it can't have a tick -box with 'I'm an experienced user' during the installation to allow for more/other options within the manager? I understand that it should be easy to use for 'newbies' and that's a very good idea, but limiting all user into the 'easy' version isn't very friendly. Let those that want to change the installation folder, manage their loadorder themselves and so on do that, and everybody will be happy. (?) There's to much of 'We know what's best for you' going on on the net in anyway. Peace out.

Tannin42 wrote: We've already decided there will be an installer that lets you select the target folder.

managing the load order: This has nothing to do with easy mode or not, you can change your load order, just the mechanism you do it by is different. This solution is no less powerful than what existed before. Arguing this is patronising is the same as arguing other mod managers are patronising because they don't work like vortex.
It's two ways of achieving the same thing, we believe this one is the superior one in the long run both in functionality and ease of use, not sacrificing one for the other.

People try to make this about newbie vs advanced but that's nonsense, it's about whether you're willing to give something new a chance or not.

Extremely glad to hear you will be allowing us to choose the install directory and thank you for that, but please consider allowing manual sorting, the current system is extremely convoluted and time consuming. If you have a large load order to sort its a major headache atm.

[rincewindTA]

In response to post #57254046. #57254611, #57255026 are all replies on the same post.

lasse1001 wrote: I have read some comments about Vortex now and I don't understand why it can't have a tick -box with 'I'm an experienced user' during the installation to allow for more/other options within the manager? I understand that it should be easy to use for 'newbies' and that's a very good idea, but limiting all user into the 'easy' version isn't very friendly. Let those that want to change the installation folder, manage their loadorder themselves and so on do that, and everybody will be happy. (?) There's to much of 'We know what's best for you' going on on the net in anyway. Peace out.

Tannin42 wrote: We've already decided there will be an installer that lets you select the target folder.

managing the load order: This has nothing to do with easy mode or not, you can change your load order, just the mechanism you do it by is different. This solution is no less powerful than what existed before. Arguing this is patronising is the same as arguing other mod managers are patronising because they don't work like vortex.
It's two ways of achieving the same thing, we believe this one is the superior one in the long run both in functionality and ease of use, not sacrificing one for the other.

People try to make this about newbie vs advanced but that's nonsense, it's about whether you're willing to give something new a chance or not.

madpaddy wrote: Extremely glad to hear you will be allowing us to choose the install directory and thank you for that, but please consider allowing manual sorting, the current system is extremely convoluted and time consuming. If you have a large load order to sort its a major headache atm.

So, we gonna be able to choose were to install? Amazing!! That was the only thing that worried me about Vortex. Looking forward to the 12th to test it by myself!! Everything sounds so promising!!

[madpaddy]

In response to post #57227931. #57228261, #57231896, #57231991, #57232121, #57237146, #57239481, #57239706, #57240016, #57242146, #57242636, #57245161 are all replies on the same post.

Robbie922004 wrote: I understand that Vortex doesn't have any method to manually rearrange your load order, and I'm baffled. It's the single most basic feature of any mod manager. I can't imagine ever using this until that's implemented.

It's a shame too, because a lot of the other features sound really great!

Dark0ne wrote: Until you use it properly and actually let yourself try and learn it, you can't judge.

We're talking about the creator of MO, the software that everyone sings the praises of, thinking this is the best way of doing things. I/we certainly haven't told him to use this system, he's decided this system will be the most powerful and useful system moving forward, and you owe it to yourself, and him, to give it a go before you judge it.

Most of the people I've seen commenting negatively about it have instantly decided they don't like it because it does things differently in some areas, without even fully trying it or understanding why it has been done this way. It's rather silly.

Hopefully once we're fully released and we can get some documentation out with it (and YouTube tutorials) people will understand why Tannin has chosen this system. For now, it's actually more important for us to see how people use Vortex without any documentation so we can know what is intuitive, what isn't, and what people are getting stuck on.

ContessaR wrote: Sorry but you don't have to use something to know that taking control away from users is not the way to go. I don't want someone deciding for me what's the best way to deal with my load orders. I do not understand why taking control away from people is seen as a positive. Complicated load orders with merged mods and shaky conflicts require us to manually be able to work with load orders.

And yes he created MO (something I wish had never been abandoned by him but that's another conversation) and in MO we have total control over what files go where and what we do with our load orders... it's a huge reason why people sing the praises of it.

Dark0ne wrote:

Sorry but you don't have to use something to know that taking control away from users is not the way to go

You clearly do, because Vortex does not take control away, it just changes the way in which you can control things in a much more logical way for load orders.

ContessaR wrote: I really hope so. I know I sound negative but I will give it a chance when I can personally. It just sounds really annoying and convoluted when dragging and dropping plugins was much faster and easier to deal with.

Oblitus wrote: > We're talking about the creator of MO, the software that everyone sings the praises of

That is because MO is great, while Vortex is awful in every single aspect. Vortex is kind of usable when you use a dozen of simple mods, but when your mod list counts hundreds of mods, and a lot of them has to be fine-tuned to work together, Vortex just doesn't provide necessary instruments. Add awkward and slow interface, lack of control everywhere and you get typical proprietary application made by people who never actually use it themselves not to be actually good, but to supplement something else. I've honestly tried to use it, and it was straightforwardly painful experience.

Arthmoor wrote:

You clearly do, because Vortex does not take control away, it just changes the way in which you can control things in a much more logical way for load orders.

Maybe people are reporting it wrong, but it's my understanding from folks who have tried it that the only way to adjust load order is to run LOOT and then set manual sorting rules on anything that's not handled correctly. Manually dragging and dropping mods to new positions is not a feature.

If this is the case I can't see this going very far. Being able to manually adjust load order by drag n drop is considered a basic feature for any mod manager. LOOT simply won't cut it because it's not supposed to be the end of the process, merely the starting point.

Lumpyacidfish wrote: Also saying its the creator of MO isnt a valid point. Good inventors have created bad stuff before.

simsrw73 wrote: I don't think it's possible yet to judge how far it will go. When I initially read that you can't manually order mods, my heart dropped. I haven't got to use it yet and am not privy to future directions, but I have begun to rethink it. I think most would agree that the IDEAL would be to simply install mods we want and play without worrying about it. One button install a mod and don't think more about it. More like a package manager such as deb, apt or chocolatey. Vortex seems like a possible path forward toward that goal. Letting users manually change order would preclude that possibility.

I think I read a post earlier that stated that they hoped to build a database of dependencies and relationships that would be the rules to make this a full blown package manager. I manually do this myself lately using XMind, create nodes for each mod with subnodes or relationship lines for Requires, Recommends, Addon, Configures, LoadBefore, LoadAfter, Patches, Compatible, Incompatible, PartiallyCompatible, etc. Those are the rules I use to build my mod configuration. Most of that could totally be automated. But for that to work, users, including me, will have to learn to step back a bit. It's not easy when you love micromanaging the configuration like I do; I didn't even use loot on most of the configs because I like understanding and ordering everything myself.

I don't know if that is the direction this is headed, but just a thought... And I recognize that even a full package manager can't handle all of the processes necessary to building some configs, but it could do a lot.

Robbie922004 wrote:

Vortex seems like a possible path forward toward that goal. Letting users manually change order would preclude that possibility.

I don't see how. Providing the option to rearrange mods doesn't mean that people are forced to use the feature. The automated approach being the default is a good idea, but the option to go in and fine tune without having to set LOOT priorities would be ideal.

Even the games themselves (Bethesda titles, XCOM) let you change your load order manually. I can already change the LOOT sorting rules if that's what I need to do, but without being able to manually re-order my .esps, it just adds an extra step of needing to start the game in order to do it when I need to do that. It could be right there in the mod manager like all the other mod managers! I adjust my load order very frequently during development/testing of my own mods, and when testing others, so this is kind of a deal breaker for me.

Oblitus wrote: Fully automated package manager could work, but it won't without enforcing some rules to modders.
- No incremental mod updates or a system to do it automatically. Different main files should only be used to handle different standalone branches of the mod (like lite and full). Every mod should be downloaded in one click and updated in the background.
- Fully automated compatibility patch handling. Patches should be deployed by Vortex, not by the scripted installer (it can only handle specific install order) and not manually (it's a mess). Optional files should not exist at all.
The current implementation of Vortex is terrible in handling this, and it is a very common case. That's a bare minimum since there would also be a lot of cases where you still have to change things manually. Handling conflicts, making own patches, etc.

kanisiba wrote:

Dark0ne wrote:

 

You clearly do, because Vortex does not take control away, it just changes the way in which you can control things in a much more logical way for load orders.

Logical way is not best way, It seems to merely take away from user freedom of choice . If its attitude doesn't change, Vortex won't be alternative to MO.

I'll be honest to me it seems like tannin is trying to reinvent the wheel, he had it pretty much spot on with MO all it needed was tweaking with some new aspects required for the Nexus a more robust basic front end for the masses but the real meat of MO still there for those that want it. But its a miss match of new ideas that leave it short and the removal of most the features that made people love MO like file by file sorting, the left-hand window to insta fix a conflict, no manual sorting have made it leave a bad taste for many. I'm guessing this is the reason its taken so long its a completely different thing to either of the mod managers people are used too, yes change is good but not all change is good.

[kamikatze13]

In response to post #57249476. #57250746, #57251226, #57252851, #57253371, #57254491 are all replies on the same post.

kamikatze13 wrote: Having missed the opportunity to get under the precious 1000, I had to quench my thirst by looking for screenshots of Vortex, and the first thing that struck me in particular:

We now have a bunch of tabs.
We have a `Mods` tab and a `Plugins` tab - but we do have to swtich between them, i.e. we do not have them side-by-side, correct?
And to access tools, we head over to the `Dashboard`?

What is the reasoning behind this? Cause my HCI prof would be steaming if he'd seen this UI design.

Oblitus wrote: Vortex screen space usage is very inefficient, so to have side-by-side you'll need a 4k monitor. And yes, Vortex UI is painful to use.

prinyo wrote: > "Vortex screen space usage is very inefficient"

I was thinking the same looking at a screenshot of the plugins tab - all those white spaces that mean you need to scroll way more and you see less plugins at a glance (less plugins visible at the same time). My mind breaks with data been presented in such an inefficient way. Hope there is a "compact view". As Google offered when they inserted similar white spaces in the mail listing and people started complaining.
Looking at the screenshots it seems that Vortex is targeted exclusively at casual users.

Tannin42 wrote: The UI was never going to please everyone, that's why we have a theme editor. You're welcome. ;)

kamikatze13 wrote: Does this imply we can have tools+mods+plugins on one/same page?

BTW, kudos for the `Categories` implementation - a huge improvement imho.

Tannin42 wrote: There is a somewhat hidden feature: when you ctrl+click on another tab it will open it in addition to the currently open one, sharing available space, so you can have two things open at once.
Other structural changes, like putting tools on the window frame (i.e. alongside the launch button on the top) would require an extension, meaning coding, _that_ can't be done with css I'm afraid.

So no space wasted after all - feelsgoodman.gif

[Deleted133263User]

@MadPaddy

 

But Tannin is not reinventing the wheel W.R.T MO, ElPresidente is doing MO2.

 

Tannin is doing Nexus Mod Manager 2, in the form of Vortex.

 

Anyone expecting Vortex to be MO2 is looking at the wrong Mod Manager.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Guest

[madpaddy]

In response to post #57257851.

alt3rn1ty wrote: @MadPaddy

But Tannin is not reinventing the wheel W.R.T MO, ElPresidente is doing MO2.

Tannin is doing Nexus Mod Manager 2, in the form of Vortex.

Anyone expecting Vortex to be MO2 is looking at the wrong Mod Manager.

I understand that but most people thought it would be an improved MO with a bit of NMM, its turned out to be neither in my opinion and it would seem like others to don't understand why it's so different with key features that people take for granted in a Mod manager missing.

Plus if I'm not mistaken ElPresidente has taken it over, all the features and under the hood its still Tannins work no ??. If it ain't broke don't fix it mate.

[Arthmoor]

In response to post #57254046. #57254611, #57255026, #57255401 are all replies on the same post.

lasse1001 wrote: I have read some comments about Vortex now and I don't understand why it can't have a tick -box with 'I'm an experienced user' during the installation to allow for more/other options within the manager? I understand that it should be easy to use for 'newbies' and that's a very good idea, but limiting all user into the 'easy' version isn't very friendly. Let those that want to change the installation folder, manage their loadorder themselves and so on do that, and everybody will be happy. (?) There's to much of 'We know what's best for you' going on on the net in anyway. Peace out.

Tannin42 wrote: We've already decided there will be an installer that lets you select the target folder.

managing the load order: This has nothing to do with easy mode or not, you can change your load order, just the mechanism you do it by is different. This solution is no less powerful than what existed before. Arguing this is patronising is the same as arguing other mod managers are patronising because they don't work like vortex.
It's two ways of achieving the same thing, we believe this one is the superior one in the long run both in functionality and ease of use, not sacrificing one for the other.

People try to make this about newbie vs advanced but that's nonsense, it's about whether you're willing to give something new a chance or not.

madpaddy wrote: Extremely glad to hear you will be allowing us to choose the install directory and thank you for that, but please consider allowing manual sorting, the current system is extremely convoluted and time consuming. If you have a large load order to sort its a major headache atm.

rincewindTA wrote: So, we gonna be able to choose were to install? Amazing!! That was the only thing that worried me about Vortex. Looking forward to the 12th to test it by myself!! Everything sounds so promising!!

Guess I know to start telling people to adjust their load order using the game's internal UI then if they're Vortex users. Or worse yet, begin disabling the buttons to download stuff via NMM/Vortex on my mods.

[kodiak123]

In response to post #57207131. #57207521, #57209031, #57209301, #57209331, #57210181, #57210331, #57210641, #57211246, #57211921, #57212311, #57212726, #57213111, #57240676 are all replies on the same post.

Mebantiza wrote: Nice, the same hideous, barely legible interface that the 'new' nexus uses, now rears its fugly head in 'Vortex' as well. Just perfect. An immediate turn-off, since it looks exactly like the wildly (UN)popular 'new' nexus look. If you were worried Vortex was going force MO on you, that was the least of your worries. They asked the same guy that made the nexus barely usable, and barely legible , if he would skin 'vortex' as well.

What a mess.

Who thought wed want to see nexus news , or latest mods even baked into this? Yes, those can be turned off, but still.

1/10

RadioactiveStud wrote: Sounds like you didn't even try to use it. Also I don't see what's wrong with the UI. It's super easy to use.

OnyxSix wrote: I'm with Mebantiza here. Vortex, along with the new nexus, is very poorly designed and laid out. It just seems like a worse looking, less user friendly version of ModDrop(Which is where I'm moving if Nexus doesn't get their s#*! together tbh)

Ethreon wrote: Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

nappilydeestructio wrote: Honestly I respectfully disagree with you. I wasn't into the new UI at first when nexusmods update it because it had some issues But now that its fixed, it looks fine and simple. I really didn't like the old look at all. It was a lil dated and it was clunky to me tbh. To me its not that bad looking. I have seen worst looking UIs and its hella worst than what nexusmods has now.

rcdcce wrote: I think this post can be awarded over statement of the year.

Aside from a few annoyances the new Nexus layout is fine. It's not like the old one was perfect.

Oblitus wrote: New nexus is really bad. Huge amounts of wasted space, weird composition, and it looks like a mess overall. It's just a bunch of merging and intersecting rectangles without any hierarchy.

rincewindTA wrote: I like the actual Nexus design. I found it perfectly functional and easy to use. And looks neat too.

RadioactiveStud wrote: You guys are all talking about the new nexus, but that has nothing to do with vortex. They don't really look alike.

APasz wrote: If you think you can do better, by all means design and share it.
Keep in mind that your design has to fit correctly on everything from a mobile phone to a ultrawide monitor, also be usable with touch.
I'm not even going to try and explain why everything was designed the way it was.

Oblitus wrote: > Keep in mind that your design has to fit correctly on everything from a mobile phone to a ultrawide monitor, also be usable with touch.
> I'm not even going to try and explain why everything was designed the way it was.

You already did. It is designed for a mobile phone and is technically usable at normal monitors. That what always happens when you design a universal interface - you are limited by the weakest implementation.

APasz wrote: Are you suggesting that a web dev can't distinguish between a mobile phone and desktop?

Oblitus wrote: > Are you suggesting that a web dev can't distinguish between a mobile phone and desktop?

They can. But proper design means two totally separate implementations for them. It takes much less effort to make it for a phone and make an extra move to make it still usable when stretched to the desktop size.

It applies not only to web design; it is a general rule. Cross-platform games and pc-exclusive ones usually easy to distinguish too.

Tyco1709 wrote: @Apasz no point even trying. they dont like change. Also they didnt get their way so they are upset. Simple fact is... dont like it? bye. Its not changing. This is the way it is. The layout is fine on everything.

@Oblitus The old layout had much more wasted space.....

Id subscribe to this as well. I've never been opposed to change, as long as its for the better, but this all just looks to be trying to appease mobile users, as its not the least appealing on a desktop monitor.

I find myself typing old. (sadly not for much longer) everytime i use the nexus, as the "old" is simply better, to-the-point, far more concise. I wonder how many people are downloading/using mods on mobile to have you do this, must be some majority, because from all the several dozen page threads ive read so far, the reaction to these changes seem like a resounding "horrible". Dreadful news, to learn that Vortex looks like this as well. Edited February 2, 2018 by kodiak123