Limited Vortex alpha release today, full release soon

[LX6R]

In response to post #57207131. #57207521, #57209031, #57209301, #57209331, #57210181, #57210331, #57210641, #57211246, #57211921, #57212311, #57212726, #57213111, #57240676, #57259971 are all replies on the same post.

Mebantiza wrote: Nice, the same hideous, barely legible interface that the 'new' nexus uses, now rears its fugly head in 'Vortex' as well. Just perfect. An immediate turn-off, since it looks exactly like the wildly (UN)popular 'new' nexus look. If you were worried Vortex was going force MO on you, that was the least of your worries. They asked the same guy that made the nexus barely usable, and barely legible , if he would skin 'vortex' as well.

What a mess.

Who thought wed want to see nexus news , or latest mods even baked into this? Yes, those can be turned off, but still.

1/10

RadioactiveStud wrote: Sounds like you didn't even try to use it. Also I don't see what's wrong with the UI. It's super easy to use.

OnyxSix wrote: I'm with Mebantiza here. Vortex, along with the new nexus, is very poorly designed and laid out. It just seems like a worse looking, less user friendly version of ModDrop(Which is where I'm moving if Nexus doesn't get their s#*! together tbh)

Ethreon wrote: Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

nappilydeestructio wrote: Honestly I respectfully disagree with you. I wasn't into the new UI at first when nexusmods update it because it had some issues But now that its fixed, it looks fine and simple. I really didn't like the old look at all. It was a lil dated and it was clunky to me tbh. To me its not that bad looking. I have seen worst looking UIs and its hella worst than what nexusmods has now.

rcdcce wrote: I think this post can be awarded over statement of the year.

Aside from a few annoyances the new Nexus layout is fine. It's not like the old one was perfect.

Oblitus wrote: New nexus is really bad. Huge amounts of wasted space, weird composition, and it looks like a mess overall. It's just a bunch of merging and intersecting rectangles without any hierarchy.

rincewindTA wrote: I like the actual Nexus design. I found it perfectly functional and easy to use. And looks neat too.

RadioactiveStud wrote: You guys are all talking about the new nexus, but that has nothing to do with vortex. They don't really look alike.

APasz wrote: If you think you can do better, by all means design and share it.
Keep in mind that your design has to fit correctly on everything from a mobile phone to a ultrawide monitor, also be usable with touch.
I'm not even going to try and explain why everything was designed the way it was.

Oblitus wrote: > Keep in mind that your design has to fit correctly on everything from a mobile phone to a ultrawide monitor, also be usable with touch.
> I'm not even going to try and explain why everything was designed the way it was.

You already did. It is designed for a mobile phone and is technically usable at normal monitors. That what always happens when you design a universal interface - you are limited by the weakest implementation.

APasz wrote: Are you suggesting that a web dev can't distinguish between a mobile phone and desktop?

Oblitus wrote: > Are you suggesting that a web dev can't distinguish between a mobile phone and desktop?

They can. But proper design means two totally separate implementations for them. It takes much less effort to make it for a phone and make an extra move to make it still usable when stretched to the desktop size.

It applies not only to web design; it is a general rule. Cross-platform games and pc-exclusive ones usually easy to distinguish too.

Tyco1709 wrote: @Apasz no point even trying. they dont like change. Also they didnt get their way so they are upset. Simple fact is... dont like it? bye. Its not changing. This is the way it is. The layout is fine on everything.

@Oblitus The old layout had much more wasted space.....

kodiak123 wrote: Id subscribe to this as well. I've never been opposed to change, as long as its for the better, but this all just looks to be trying to appease mobile users, as its not the least appealing on a desktop monitor.

I find myself typing old. (sadly not for much longer) everytime i use the nexus, as the "old" is simply better, to-the-point, far more concise. I wonder how many people are downloading/using mods on mobile to have you do this, must be some majority, because from all the several dozen page threads ive read so far, the reaction to these changes seem like a resounding "horrible". Dreadful news, to learn that Vortex looks like this as well.

Havent tested it yet, but it its the same UI as new nexus side... omg pls. I always thought the previous design was bad, but this is worse.

[FireStar999]

No beef with the new way you want to manage plugins, but, you definitely SHOULD add manual plugin sorting function as an option before releasing this, else its just not practical tbh.

[MysteriousGuy]

I'm not one of the people who got the download but from what ive seen so far Vortex looks like a Nexus app instead of a universal mod manager program. Not sure how to feel about that. But look doesn't really matter, so im looking forward to testing how it handles mods.

 

What i mind at the moment is same thing that was bothering me before and that is - Tannin being "one man army".

Before this was obvious when we didnt get any news about development for months. That time he took the blame (took one for the team).

Now its similar situation where he is alone against the world (I don't count Ethreon since he is just trying hard to be nexus butt plug).

 

Nexus doesnt have anyone else who can help solve all the confusion people are having? If so whats the point in providing program to people without manual or instructions on what it does and how?

Only thing that can come from that is mass confusion and bunch of comments that are half based on presumption. Then putting leading programmer into that chaos to answer comments instead of doing its job. Where is everyone from that group of testers?

 

For anyone wondering what this Vortex actualy looks like i found this video to have most informations so far

It certanly does better job at promoting it then Nexus does by hiding all the videos and images together with its download link.

[cortex56]

In response to post #57262401.

FireStar999 wrote: No beef with the new way you want to manage plugins, but, you definitely SHOULD add manual plugin sorting function as an option before releasing this, else its just not practical tbh.

For manually sorting plugins, all you have to do in Vortex is;
Open the Plugins tab, grab the dependencies icon for the esp you want to move, and drag it to the position you want it.
A window opens giving you the rule you are applying. You can either confirm that or cancel it and move the esp elsewhere.
It is very simple and fast.

AND - It will not change position if you run LOOT after you confirm the rule you applied by moving the plugin, until YOU remove the rule.
So you can add mods and run LOOT and not have to re-position any of the mods you have already done. Edited February 3, 2018 by cortex56

[Deleted46821278User]

Got my hands on it and have it installed on my PC and Laptop. Aside from the known bugs popping up every now and then, I am loving it so far!

I look forward to when there is proper support for The Sims 3 and 4.

[cortex56]

In response to post #57262401. #57266151 is also a reply to the same post.

FireStar999 wrote: No beef with the new way you want to manage plugins, but, you definitely SHOULD add manual plugin sorting function as an option before releasing this, else its just not practical tbh.

cortex56 wrote: For manually sorting plugins, all you have to do in Vortex is;
Open the Plugins tab, grab the dependencies icon for the esp you want to move, and drag it to the position you want it.
A window opens giving you the rule you are applying. You can either confirm that or cancel it and move the esp elsewhere.
It is very simple and fast.

AND - It will not change position if you run LOOT after you confirm the rule you applied by moving the plugin, until YOU remove the rule.
So you can add mods and run LOOT and not have to re-position any of the mods you have already done.

Just an added note:
To remove a rule is simple;
Open the Plugins Tab, click the dependencies icon of the esp you want to remove the rule from.
A small window opens showing you the rule that is applied, or all of the rules applied if you have set more for that esp,
each rule has a (-) next to it, click that and the rule is removed.
Simple two click process.

It is very fast at loading mods, changing position, and removing the rule.
The more I work in Vortex, the more I like it.

[jakejaggedjaw]

look what I need is to put mods downloads and plugins all on the same page and the ability to adjust the windows sizes

[MarchinBunny]

In response to post #57227931. #57228261, #57231896, #57231991, #57232121, #57237146, #57239481, #57239706, #57240016, #57242146, #57242636, #57245161, #57255431 are all replies on the same post.

Robbie922004 wrote: I understand that Vortex doesn't have any method to manually rearrange your load order, and I'm baffled. It's the single most basic feature of any mod manager. I can't imagine ever using this until that's implemented.

It's a shame too, because a lot of the other features sound really great!

Dark0ne wrote: Until you use it properly and actually let yourself try and learn it, you can't judge.

We're talking about the creator of MO, the software that everyone sings the praises of, thinking this is the best way of doing things. I/we certainly haven't told him to use this system, he's decided this system will be the most powerful and useful system moving forward, and you owe it to yourself, and him, to give it a go before you judge it.

Most of the people I've seen commenting negatively about it have instantly decided they don't like it because it does things differently in some areas, without even fully trying it or understanding why it has been done this way. It's rather silly.

Hopefully once we're fully released and we can get some documentation out with it (and YouTube tutorials) people will understand why Tannin has chosen this system. For now, it's actually more important for us to see how people use Vortex without any documentation so we can know what is intuitive, what isn't, and what people are getting stuck on.

ContessaR wrote: Sorry but you don't have to use something to know that taking control away from users is not the way to go. I don't want someone deciding for me what's the best way to deal with my load orders. I do not understand why taking control away from people is seen as a positive. Complicated load orders with merged mods and shaky conflicts require us to manually be able to work with load orders.

And yes he created MO (something I wish had never been abandoned by him but that's another conversation) and in MO we have total control over what files go where and what we do with our load orders... it's a huge reason why people sing the praises of it.

Dark0ne wrote:

Sorry but you don't have to use something to know that taking control away from users is not the way to go

You clearly do, because Vortex does not take control away, it just changes the way in which you can control things in a much more logical way for load orders.

ContessaR wrote: I really hope so. I know I sound negative but I will give it a chance when I can personally. It just sounds really annoying and convoluted when dragging and dropping plugins was much faster and easier to deal with.

Oblitus wrote: > We're talking about the creator of MO, the software that everyone sings the praises of

That is because MO is great, while Vortex is awful in every single aspect. Vortex is kind of usable when you use a dozen of simple mods, but when your mod list counts hundreds of mods, and a lot of them has to be fine-tuned to work together, Vortex just doesn't provide necessary instruments. Add awkward and slow interface, lack of control everywhere and you get typical proprietary application made by people who never actually use it themselves not to be actually good, but to supplement something else. I've honestly tried to use it, and it was straightforwardly painful experience.

Arthmoor wrote:

You clearly do, because Vortex does not take control away, it just changes the way in which you can control things in a much more logical way for load orders.

Maybe people are reporting it wrong, but it's my understanding from folks who have tried it that the only way to adjust load order is to run LOOT and then set manual sorting rules on anything that's not handled correctly. Manually dragging and dropping mods to new positions is not a feature.

If this is the case I can't see this going very far. Being able to manually adjust load order by drag n drop is considered a basic feature for any mod manager. LOOT simply won't cut it because it's not supposed to be the end of the process, merely the starting point.

Lumpyacidfish wrote: Also saying its the creator of MO isnt a valid point. Good inventors have created bad stuff before.

simsrw73 wrote: I don't think it's possible yet to judge how far it will go. When I initially read that you can't manually order mods, my heart dropped. I haven't got to use it yet and am not privy to future directions, but I have begun to rethink it. I think most would agree that the IDEAL would be to simply install mods we want and play without worrying about it. One button install a mod and don't think more about it. More like a package manager such as deb, apt or chocolatey. Vortex seems like a possible path forward toward that goal. Letting users manually change order would preclude that possibility.

I think I read a post earlier that stated that they hoped to build a database of dependencies and relationships that would be the rules to make this a full blown package manager. I manually do this myself lately using XMind, create nodes for each mod with subnodes or relationship lines for Requires, Recommends, Addon, Configures, LoadBefore, LoadAfter, Patches, Compatible, Incompatible, PartiallyCompatible, etc. Those are the rules I use to build my mod configuration. Most of that could totally be automated. But for that to work, users, including me, will have to learn to step back a bit. It's not easy when you love micromanaging the configuration like I do; I didn't even use loot on most of the configs because I like understanding and ordering everything myself.

I don't know if that is the direction this is headed, but just a thought... And I recognize that even a full package manager can't handle all of the processes necessary to building some configs, but it could do a lot.

Robbie922004 wrote:

Vortex seems like a possible path forward toward that goal. Letting users manually change order would preclude that possibility.

I don't see how. Providing the option to rearrange mods doesn't mean that people are forced to use the feature. The automated approach being the default is a good idea, but the option to go in and fine tune without having to set LOOT priorities would be ideal.

Even the games themselves (Bethesda titles, XCOM) let you change your load order manually. I can already change the LOOT sorting rules if that's what I need to do, but without being able to manually re-order my .esps, it just adds an extra step of needing to start the game in order to do it when I need to do that. It could be right there in the mod manager like all the other mod managers! I adjust my load order very frequently during development/testing of my own mods, and when testing others, so this is kind of a deal breaker for me.

Oblitus wrote: Fully automated package manager could work, but it won't without enforcing some rules to modders.
- No incremental mod updates or a system to do it automatically. Different main files should only be used to handle different standalone branches of the mod (like lite and full). Every mod should be downloaded in one click and updated in the background.
- Fully automated compatibility patch handling. Patches should be deployed by Vortex, not by the scripted installer (it can only handle specific install order) and not manually (it's a mess). Optional files should not exist at all.
The current implementation of Vortex is terrible in handling this, and it is a very common case. That's a bare minimum since there would also be a lot of cases where you still have to change things manually. Handling conflicts, making own patches, etc.

kanisiba wrote:

Dark0ne wrote:

 

You clearly do, because Vortex does not take control away, it just changes the way in which you can control things in a much more logical way for load orders.

Logical way is not best way, It seems to merely take away from user freedom of choice . If its attitude doesn't change, Vortex won't be alternative to MO.

madpaddy wrote: I'll be honest to me it seems like tannin is trying to reinvent the wheel, he had it pretty much spot on with MO all it needed was tweaking with some new aspects required for the Nexus a more robust basic front end for the masses but the real meat of MO still there for those that want it. But its a miss match of new ideas that leave it short and the removal of most the features that made people love MO like file by file sorting, the left-hand window to insta fix a conflict, no manual sorting have made it leave a bad taste for many. I'm guessing this is the reason its taken so long its a completely different thing to either of the mod managers people are used too, yes change is good but not all change is good.

@madpatty
I would hardly call it reinventing the wheel.
Majority of users don't need to manually do a load order since we have a program that can do it for you. All you have to do is make corrections that program does not catch, which you are capable of doing in Vortex just fine. Eventually, those rules will likely find their way into Loot meaning the more you use it, the less you have to manually do anything and the more accurate it becomes. Why would you need to manually do your entire load order when you have such a program?

This isn't one of those situations where it's a feature everyone must have. It's a situation where there is a group of people who are so stuck in doing it the old way they can't seem to come to grips with the idea that their way just is no longer required. In fact, they may even believe they are capable of sorting better than the program, and while that might be true at this very moment, the more people who use it and the more rules that get integrated into the program, the more accurate it becomes. Eventually, it will be far more accurate than any single person could achieve in such a short period of time even for the most advanced users. This is the same situation where a chess player might scoff at a machine "Bah! it doesn't have the capability to feel a situation and I have such and such years of playing experience", chess player proceeds to get beaten easily by the program.

Literally, at this point, the only reason you could want or need to manually adjust load order is if you are a developer and need to run some tests. But considering all the other programs still exist that allow you to do this, under such circumstances with how little people would need to do that, just use those old programs, they do exactly what you need. For those who swear up and down, they need to sort every individual mod in their load order manually and don't rely on things like Loot, well ... you are being ridiculous and stubborn.

[Templarkiller50]

In response to post #57234346. #57236346, #57242626 are all replies on the same post.

RockGodOne wrote: I got Vortex yesterday but its so confusing compared to NMM even tho it looks so simple. No fomod support? And it's an all or nothing system for mods that alter many files? So I can no longer use more than 1 NPC makeover mod or i'll have tons of black faces.

For those HUGE reasons, I uninstalled Vortex, but how do I go back to NMM? I still have all my mods installed and activated in NMM, but I can no longer download mods and when I launch SSE with SKSE64 and try to load up a save, it tells me I have no mods installed.

mario58791 wrote: It has FOMOD support but it doesn't work when you import mods. It work if you download the mod from the website perfectly.

RockGodOne wrote: well thats ridiculous. whats the point of importing mods then if i cant choose options?

and then trying to make a clean profile of non imported mods so I could start from scratch, it still gave me all the plugins from my imported mods from my initial profile.

This does not really solve the problem of importing FOMODs that you are having but it would be neat, if possible, to have a system to quickly find links to all your mods so you can redownload them into the new mod manager, even though you have the option, atleast in MO, I haven't used NMM in a while, to go to individual mod links, I think that it would be cool to be able to just have a menu list of the mod and then the Nexus link, then you could click on whatever one you want to go to or whatever ones you want to go to, it seems convenient, especially for updating mods

[cortex56]

In response to post #57227931. #57228261, #57231896, #57231991, #57232121, #57237146, #57239481, #57239706, #57240016, #57242146, #57242636, #57245161, #57255431, #57268611 are all replies on the same post.

Robbie922004 wrote: I understand that Vortex doesn't have any method to manually rearrange your load order, and I'm baffled. It's the single most basic feature of any mod manager. I can't imagine ever using this until that's implemented.

It's a shame too, because a lot of the other features sound really great!

Dark0ne wrote: Until you use it properly and actually let yourself try and learn it, you can't judge.

We're talking about the creator of MO, the software that everyone sings the praises of, thinking this is the best way of doing things. I/we certainly haven't told him to use this system, he's decided this system will be the most powerful and useful system moving forward, and you owe it to yourself, and him, to give it a go before you judge it.

Most of the people I've seen commenting negatively about it have instantly decided they don't like it because it does things differently in some areas, without even fully trying it or understanding why it has been done this way. It's rather silly.

Hopefully once we're fully released and we can get some documentation out with it (and YouTube tutorials) people will understand why Tannin has chosen this system. For now, it's actually more important for us to see how people use Vortex without any documentation so we can know what is intuitive, what isn't, and what people are getting stuck on.

ContessaR wrote: Sorry but you don't have to use something to know that taking control away from users is not the way to go. I don't want someone deciding for me what's the best way to deal with my load orders. I do not understand why taking control away from people is seen as a positive. Complicated load orders with merged mods and shaky conflicts require us to manually be able to work with load orders.

And yes he created MO (something I wish had never been abandoned by him but that's another conversation) and in MO we have total control over what files go where and what we do with our load orders... it's a huge reason why people sing the praises of it.

Dark0ne wrote:

Sorry but you don't have to use something to know that taking control away from users is not the way to go

You clearly do, because Vortex does not take control away, it just changes the way in which you can control things in a much more logical way for load orders.

ContessaR wrote: I really hope so. I know I sound negative but I will give it a chance when I can personally. It just sounds really annoying and convoluted when dragging and dropping plugins was much faster and easier to deal with.

Oblitus wrote: > We're talking about the creator of MO, the software that everyone sings the praises of

That is because MO is great, while Vortex is awful in every single aspect. Vortex is kind of usable when you use a dozen of simple mods, but when your mod list counts hundreds of mods, and a lot of them has to be fine-tuned to work together, Vortex just doesn't provide necessary instruments. Add awkward and slow interface, lack of control everywhere and you get typical proprietary application made by people who never actually use it themselves not to be actually good, but to supplement something else. I've honestly tried to use it, and it was straightforwardly painful experience.

Arthmoor wrote:

You clearly do, because Vortex does not take control away, it just changes the way in which you can control things in a much more logical way for load orders.

Maybe people are reporting it wrong, but it's my understanding from folks who have tried it that the only way to adjust load order is to run LOOT and then set manual sorting rules on anything that's not handled correctly. Manually dragging and dropping mods to new positions is not a feature.

If this is the case I can't see this going very far. Being able to manually adjust load order by drag n drop is considered a basic feature for any mod manager. LOOT simply won't cut it because it's not supposed to be the end of the process, merely the starting point.

Lumpyacidfish wrote: Also saying its the creator of MO isnt a valid point. Good inventors have created bad stuff before.

simsrw73 wrote: I don't think it's possible yet to judge how far it will go. When I initially read that you can't manually order mods, my heart dropped. I haven't got to use it yet and am not privy to future directions, but I have begun to rethink it. I think most would agree that the IDEAL would be to simply install mods we want and play without worrying about it. One button install a mod and don't think more about it. More like a package manager such as deb, apt or chocolatey. Vortex seems like a possible path forward toward that goal. Letting users manually change order would preclude that possibility.

I think I read a post earlier that stated that they hoped to build a database of dependencies and relationships that would be the rules to make this a full blown package manager. I manually do this myself lately using XMind, create nodes for each mod with subnodes or relationship lines for Requires, Recommends, Addon, Configures, LoadBefore, LoadAfter, Patches, Compatible, Incompatible, PartiallyCompatible, etc. Those are the rules I use to build my mod configuration. Most of that could totally be automated. But for that to work, users, including me, will have to learn to step back a bit. It's not easy when you love micromanaging the configuration like I do; I didn't even use loot on most of the configs because I like understanding and ordering everything myself.

I don't know if that is the direction this is headed, but just a thought... And I recognize that even a full package manager can't handle all of the processes necessary to building some configs, but it could do a lot.

Robbie922004 wrote:

Vortex seems like a possible path forward toward that goal. Letting users manually change order would preclude that possibility.

I don't see how. Providing the option to rearrange mods doesn't mean that people are forced to use the feature. The automated approach being the default is a good idea, but the option to go in and fine tune without having to set LOOT priorities would be ideal.

Even the games themselves (Bethesda titles, XCOM) let you change your load order manually. I can already change the LOOT sorting rules if that's what I need to do, but without being able to manually re-order my .esps, it just adds an extra step of needing to start the game in order to do it when I need to do that. It could be right there in the mod manager like all the other mod managers! I adjust my load order very frequently during development/testing of my own mods, and when testing others, so this is kind of a deal breaker for me.

Oblitus wrote: Fully automated package manager could work, but it won't without enforcing some rules to modders.
- No incremental mod updates or a system to do it automatically. Different main files should only be used to handle different standalone branches of the mod (like lite and full). Every mod should be downloaded in one click and updated in the background.
- Fully automated compatibility patch handling. Patches should be deployed by Vortex, not by the scripted installer (it can only handle specific install order) and not manually (it's a mess). Optional files should not exist at all.
The current implementation of Vortex is terrible in handling this, and it is a very common case. That's a bare minimum since there would also be a lot of cases where you still have to change things manually. Handling conflicts, making own patches, etc.

kanisiba wrote:

Dark0ne wrote:

 

You clearly do, because Vortex does not take control away, it just changes the way in which you can control things in a much more logical way for load orders.

Logical way is not best way, It seems to merely take away from user freedom of choice . If its attitude doesn't change, Vortex won't be alternative to MO.

madpaddy wrote: I'll be honest to me it seems like tannin is trying to reinvent the wheel, he had it pretty much spot on with MO all it needed was tweaking with some new aspects required for the Nexus a more robust basic front end for the masses but the real meat of MO still there for those that want it. But its a miss match of new ideas that leave it short and the removal of most the features that made people love MO like file by file sorting, the left-hand window to insta fix a conflict, no manual sorting have made it leave a bad taste for many. I'm guessing this is the reason its taken so long its a completely different thing to either of the mod managers people are used too, yes change is good but not all change is good.

Brabbit1987 wrote: @madpatty
I would hardly call it reinventing the wheel.
Majority of users don't need to manually do a load order since we have a program that can do it for you. All you have to do is make corrections that program does not catch, which you are capable of doing in Vortex just fine. Eventually, those rules will likely find their way into Loot meaning the more you use it, the less you have to manually do anything and the more accurate it becomes. Why would you need to manually do your entire load order when you have such a program?

This isn't one of those situations where it's a feature everyone must have. It's a situation where there is a group of people who are so stuck in doing it the old way they can't seem to come to grips with the idea that their way just is no longer required. In fact, they may even believe they are capable of sorting better than the program, and while that might be true at this very moment, the more people who use it and the more rules that get integrated into the program, the more accurate it becomes. Eventually, it will be far more accurate than any single person could achieve in such a short period of time even for the most advanced users. This is the same situation where a chess player might scoff at a machine "Bah! it doesn't have the capability to feel a situation and I have such and such years of playing experience", chess player proceeds to get beaten easily by the program.

Literally, at this point, the only reason you could want or need to manually adjust load order is if you are a developer and need to run some tests. But considering all the other programs still exist that allow you to do this, under such circumstances with how little people would need to do that, just use those old programs, they do exactly what you need. For those who swear up and down, they need to sort every individual mod in their load order manually and don't rely on things like Loot, well ... you are being ridiculous and stubborn.

Vortex does handle Manual load ordering.
I have written it in previous posts, it handles it in several easy ways.
Single esp positioning, bulk esp positioning.
Rule sets or global's.
In most cases positioning an esp is a two click process, removing the rule for an esp is again a two click process.
If you want to position your entire load list of esp's you can. I don't know why anyone would, but you could do it in Vortex.
I like it. It is very fast and flexible.
I know some people posted here as soon as they opened Vortex and ranted how horrible it was. They didn't take the time to move around in it and see what they could do.
There is a learning curve. Be ready for that, but it's a small learning curve.
All I can say is the same thing your mother used to tell you when she put that green stuff on your plate at supper, "Try it, you just might like it". :)