Giving up on Vortex for now

[Oblitus]

 

I get the feeling people stop reading the moment they realise I'm not writing "yes, I'll do exactly as you ask".

Are you surprised? Autosorting rules are not a new feature; nothing you can't already do it using LOOT GUI. So Vortex doesn't introduce anything new but lacks a key feature of old tools; therefore old tools are better, dixi.

[kanisiba]

Is it so hard to implement both manual sorting and auto sorting?

[MarchinBunny]

 

 

I get the feeling people stop reading the moment they realise I'm not writing "yes, I'll do exactly as you ask".

Are you surprised? Autosorting rules are not a new feature; nothing you can't already do it using LOOT GUI. So Vortex doesn't introduce anything new but lacks a key feature of old tools; therefore old tools are better, dixi.

 

I think a lot of people are missing the point. Just because it was a feature in other tools doesn't mean it was a feature that was required or good to have. If anything, I would argue it's sloppy and it created a community full of people who rather do it the sloppy way even though there is a better way that exists. It's like a bad habit. Load order is only about working with conflicts. If you feel the need to sort every single mod in a particular order, it means you are doing it wrong. It means you are using the feature for something it was never even intended for. As Tannin has pointed out, load order is for ordering mods with conflicts and such, not for organizing.

 

There really is no reason to have the capability to move all the mods into some random order in your load order because that isn't what it's meant for. The only reason it was done that way in the past was that at one point doing it manually was the only way to reliably do it. And the reason Vortex doesn't have the feature now is because it's no longer needed because we have better tools for the job. People wanting to do it the old way instead of moving forward isn't a good argument for having the feature.

[Oblitus]

 

 

 

I get the feeling people stop reading the moment they realise I'm not writing "yes, I'll do exactly as you ask".

Are you surprised? Autosorting rules are not a new feature; nothing you can't already do it using LOOT GUI. So Vortex doesn't introduce anything new but lacks a key feature of old tools; therefore old tools are better, dixi.

 

I think a lot of people are missing the point. Just because it was a feature in other tools doesn't mean it was a feature that was required or good to have. If anything, I would argue it's sloppy and it created a community full of people who rather do it the sloppy way even though there is a better way that exists. It's like a bad habit. Load order is only about working with conflicts. If you feel the need to sort every single mod in a particular order, it means you are doing it wrong. It means you are using the feature for something it was never even intended for. As Tannin has pointed out, load order is for ordering mods with conflicts and such, not for organizing.

 

There really is no reason to have the capability to move all the mods into some random order in your load order because that isn't what it's meant for. The only reason it was done that way in the past was that at one point doing it manually was the only way to reliably do it. And the reason Vortex doesn't have the feature now is because it's no longer needed because we have better tools for the job. People wanting to do it the old way instead of moving forward isn't a good argument for having the feature.

 

If that feature is bad, why better part of the community is using it? Because LOOT or Vortex is good when you (or someone who is making a master list) EXACTLY know what goes where. But you don't, unless you know what is under the hood of all the mods. No one knows the right solution for all possible mod combinations. So you put a new mod somewhere it PROBABLY belongs and see if it works. Then you shuffle it around until it works.

[d81]

 

I think a lot of people are missing the point. Just because it was a feature in other tools doesn't mean it was a feature that was required or good to have. If anything, I would argue it's sloppy and it created a community full of people who rather do it the sloppy way even though there is a better way that exists. It's like a bad habit. Load order is only about working with conflicts. If you feel the need to sort every single mod in a particular order, it means you are doing it wrong. It means you are using the feature for something it was never even intended for. As Tannin has pointed out, load order is for ordering mods with conflicts and such, not for organizing.

 

There really is no reason to have the capability to move all the mods into some random order in your load order because that isn't what it's meant for. The only reason it was done that way in the past was that at one point doing it manually was the only way to reliably do it. And the reason Vortex doesn't have the feature now is because it's no longer needed because we have better tools for the job. People wanting to do it the old way instead of moving forward isn't a good argument for having the feature.

 

There are lots of reasons to use "manual" load order sorting, and even more reasons to not to use LOOT. It's not about a "new" way. LOOT, formerly known as BOSS (Better OBLIVION Sorting Software), has been around for ages. How many mod managers have come and gone over the years, and how many of them use manual load order sorting. All of them? And how many allow running LOOT/BOSS through them? A few of the better ones. How many only use LOOT? One.

 

I have tried LOOT/BOSS many, many times over the years, and even find it useful for Oblivion. I have never found it useful for other Bethesda games, even when I use it to initially sort my load order and then finish it by hand. It is more trouble than it's worth in my opinion. I look at and resolve conflicts using mod tools and know where the plugins should be in my load order. I want my game to work the way I want and know that it works how I want. I want to be able to open xEdit and the Creation Kit and not look at a jumbled, unordered list.

 

I often have to help correct player's load order when they come to my Fallout 4 mod page because of LOOT. They say "LOOT put it here..." and I have to politely explain to them that LOOT is wrong, put it there. And they do and go "it works!". My mod is designed to be loaded a particular way, under particular mods, and above others. LOOT puts it at the top of the load order, which is the worst place it could be and practically guarantees it will be broken. How that is helpful or good IDK. Now they are going to have to set priorities...

[Deleted133263User]

I often have to help correct player's load order when they come to my Fallout 4 mod page because of LOOT. They say "LOOT put it here..." and I have to politely explain to them that LOOT is wrong, put it there. And they do and go "it works!". My mod is designed to be loaded a particular way, under particular mods, and above others. LOOT puts it at the top of the load order, which is the worst place it could be and practically guarantees it will be broken. How that is helpful or good IDK. Now they are going to have to set priorities...

So instead of correcting a lot of people, why not just submit a technical argument with your reasoning as to why your mod should go in a certain place or after a certain plugin .. In the LOOT development thread. If it is a valid case then the positioning will be permanently added by the team to the masterlist, and LOOT forever after would do your correcting for you.

 

LOOT will generally put a mod with the most amount of record changes out of all plugins first because to do it the other way around makes it win over all other smaller mods just changing one of those records in conflict. The idea being if the smaller ones load later, they win, if the user wants the bigger mod to win in that case .. remove the smaller mod.

 

It has a lot of considerations, all of which can be overridden by the masterlist and mod authors explaining a good enough reason as to why technically their mod should be on the list and made to load in specific ways.

 

If mod authors dont talk to the LOOT team, nothing gets done. So then it is left to users of the mod to either suggest it, or use meta data Priorities or Load after.

Before LOOT came along, BOSS was the tool of choice for Load Ordering, and had a well developed masterlist with thousands of common mod ordering mistakes corrected .. Because authors and more expert users of the mods used to talk to the tool makers.

 

 

Or .. Maybe you could include Bash Tags in your mods header, to get Bash to carry forward any important records into the Bashed Patch every time it is rebuilt, so that smaller mods with more than just a few records can be trumped by your selective Bash Tag additions. Admittedly Patchers need further development for newer games like Skyrim and Fallout 4, but they will be coming (when Utumno gets his head around doing them after all the refactoring he has been doing), maybe suggestions to the development team would ensure your particular patcher requirements are noted as needed for a particular game.

 

Screenshot - Bash Tags in the header of the Unofficial Oblivion Patch

Screenshot - User chooses here whether to leave the Bash Tag ticked for UOP or not

Bashed Patch loads last, and Bash Tag included records in the Rebuild of the bashed patch win.

 

 

Oh and a Fixed That For You : You forget Wrye Bash by default now uses LOOT API also ..

 

~ How many only use LOOT? Two

[MarchinBunny]

 

 

 

 

I get the feeling people stop reading the moment they realise I'm not writing "yes, I'll do exactly as you ask".

Are you surprised? Autosorting rules are not a new feature; nothing you can't already do it using LOOT GUI. So Vortex doesn't introduce anything new but lacks a key feature of old tools; therefore old tools are better, dixi.

 

I think a lot of people are missing the point. Just because it was a feature in other tools doesn't mean it was a feature that was required or good to have. If anything, I would argue it's sloppy and it created a community full of people who rather do it the sloppy way even though there is a better way that exists. It's like a bad habit. Load order is only about working with conflicts. If you feel the need to sort every single mod in a particular order, it means you are doing it wrong. It means you are using the feature for something it was never even intended for. As Tannin has pointed out, load order is for ordering mods with conflicts and such, not for organizing.

 

There really is no reason to have the capability to move all the mods into some random order in your load order because that isn't what it's meant for. The only reason it was done that way in the past was that at one point doing it manually was the only way to reliably do it. And the reason Vortex doesn't have the feature now is because it's no longer needed because we have better tools for the job. People wanting to do it the old way instead of moving forward isn't a good argument for having the feature.

 

If that feature is bad, why better part of the community is using it? Because LOOT or Vortex is good when you (or someone who is making a master list) EXACTLY know what goes where. But you don't, unless you know what is under the hood of all the mods. No one knows the right solution for all possible mod combinations. So you put a new mod somewhere it PROBABLY belongs and see if it works. Then you shuffle it around until it works.

 

I already explained why. It's called a bad habit. It's a learned behavior because that is how it had to be done in the past. It reminds me of that saying you can't teach an old dog new tricks. People are so used to having to do it manually even though those days have been long gone. Many people just have not moved on. In fact, I would argue most people actually use LOOT and only a handful of people who have been modding for a very long time don't really want to move forward because they believe it can only be done properly one way. Also, a trial and error scenario does not happen often enough for it to be such a problem that you would need to do it the old way. Adding and removing rules in very simple.

 

 

 

I think a lot of people are missing the point. Just because it was a feature in other tools doesn't mean it was a feature that was required or good to have. If anything, I would argue it's sloppy and it created a community full of people who rather do it the sloppy way even though there is a better way that exists. It's like a bad habit. Load order is only about working with conflicts. If you feel the need to sort every single mod in a particular order, it means you are doing it wrong. It means you are using the feature for something it was never even intended for. As Tannin has pointed out, load order is for ordering mods with conflicts and such, not for organizing.

 

There really is no reason to have the capability to move all the mods into some random order in your load order because that isn't what it's meant for. The only reason it was done that way in the past was that at one point doing it manually was the only way to reliably do it. And the reason Vortex doesn't have the feature now is because it's no longer needed because we have better tools for the job. People wanting to do it the old way instead of moving forward isn't a good argument for having the feature.

 

There are lots of reasons to use "manual" load order sorting, and even more reasons to not to use LOOT. It's not about a "new" way. LOOT, formerly known as BOSS (Better OBLIVION Sorting Software), has been around for ages. How many mod managers have come and gone over the years, and how many of them use manual load order sorting. All of them? And how many allow running LOOT/BOSS through them? A few of the better ones. How many only use LOOT? One.

 

I have tried LOOT/BOSS many, many times over the years, and even find it useful for Oblivion. I have never found it useful for other Bethesda games, even when I use it to initially sort my load order and then finish it by hand. It is more trouble than it's worth in my opinion. I look at and resolve conflicts using mod tools and know where the plugins should be in my load order. I want my game to work the way I want and know that it works how I want. I want to be able to open xEdit and the Creation Kit and not look at a jumbled, unordered list.

 

I often have to help correct player's load order when they come to my Fallout 4 mod page because of LOOT. They say "LOOT put it here..." and I have to politely explain to them that LOOT is wrong, put it there. And they do and go "it works!". My mod is designed to be loaded a particular way, under particular mods, and above others. LOOT puts it at the top of the load order, which is the worst place it could be and practically guarantees it will be broken. How that is helpful or good IDK. Now they are going to have to set priorities...

 

 

All you did was create yourself a fallacious argument there. Just because everyone in the past decided to continue to do things the old way, does not mean the new way is bad, it just means some people are stubborn. It's about time you learn the difference between something being required and you just wanting to do something a certain way because you are used to it.

 

To even say you never found a use for LOOT is mind-boggling because it's a very useful tool and very simple to use. Can it be wrong? Absolutely. Can it be fixed? Yes. Do you know why it's not though? Because of you. You are your own worst enemy. Your unwillingness to use the tool is creating more issues for you and everyone else in the long run. This tool is designed to allow mod authors to be able to include a rule set for their mods and then LOOT can apply that to everyone. However, it's not going to know that if you don't do anything about it. It's not a damned AI. It doesn't just learn by itself. You have to tell it what to do. That is how programs work. I think if you were smart, that is probably what you should be doing. Rather than fighting against it, it makes more sense to work with it.

 

Here is a little help.

https://loot.github.io/docs/contributing/Masterlist-Editing.html

 

It will know where to place your mod if you just tell it where to place it. A lot easier than having to constantly tell people LOOT is wrong, it's wrong because you have not told it what to do. It can only make guesses on the order as best as it can without information from you.

[nexususer01]

Then there is a super easy solution. From now on all mods uploaded to the Nexus must absolutely have a LOOT rule uploaded as well. Mods failing to do so will be rejected immediately.

[Ethreon]

Then there is a super easy solution. From now on all mods uploaded to the Nexus must absolutely have a LOOT rule uploaded as well. Mods failing to do so will be rejected immediately.

 

Hahahaha. Anymore ridiculous suggestions?

[Hilli1]

 

 

 

I get the feeling people stop reading the moment they realise I'm not writing "yes, I'll do exactly as you ask".

Are you surprised? Autosorting rules are not a new feature; nothing you can't already do it using LOOT GUI. So Vortex doesn't introduce anything new but lacks a key feature of old tools; therefore old tools are better, dixi.

 

I think a lot of people are missing the point. Just because it was a feature in other tools doesn't mean it was a feature that was required or good to have. If anything, I would argue it's sloppy and it created a community full of people who rather do it the sloppy way even though there is a better way that exists. It's like a bad habit. Load order is only about working with conflicts. If you feel the need to sort every single mod in a particular order, it means you are doing it wrong. It means you are using the feature for something it was never even intended for. As Tannin has pointed out, load order is for ordering mods with conflicts and such, not for organizing.

There really is no reason to have the capability to move all the mods into some random order in your load order because that isn't what it's meant for. The only reason it was done that way in the past was that at one point doing it manually was the only way to reliably do it. And the reason Vortex doesn't have the feature now is because it's no longer needed because we have better tools for the job. People wanting to do it the old way instead of moving forward isn't a good argument for having the feature.

 

 

@Brabbit1987

 

You wrote: "Just because it was a feature in other tools doesn't mean it was a feature that was required or good to have. If anything, I would argue it's sloppy and it created a community full of people who rather do it the sloppy way even though there is a better way that exists. It's like a bad habit. Load order is only about working with conflicts."

I think you not even understood about what we discussed. You speak about load order. Load order means the ordering of the plugins. However we discussed about install order. That means the ordering of the mods.

 

You wrote: "If you feel the need to sort every single mod in a particular order, it means you are doing it wrong. It means you are using the feature for something it was never even intended for."

I use the installation order in MO2 once for organization and once to resolve conflicts. Why? It is the only way to keep an overview. So don't tell me it is wrong.

 

You wrote: "There really is no reason to have the capability to move all the mods into some random order in your load order because that isn't what it's meant for."

You don't need mod organization? Fine. When you can keep an overview using thousands of mods which are all in disorder then you are godlike perhaps. I can't. I need to have the mods visually organized.

 

You wrote "And the reason Vortex doesn't have the feature now is because it's no longer needed because we have better tools for the job."

No. This is exactly the problem. There are no tools or features to organize. Vortex does not offer an organization feature yet. But Tannin said he's working on it. So I'm looking forward to it.

 

You wrote: "People wanting to do it the old way instead of moving forward..."

There is no "new" way doing it yet.