Managing the Load Order...

[FireStar999]

Your download history is recording plenty of downloads off your account, just not the Vortex one itself, which is obviously suspect. Are you sure you didn't download it from another site or another user didn't give you the installer via Discord or similar? Or even if you downloaded it on a different account? We've logged your API key being registered and used for the first time 12 hours after the download page for Vortex was closed.

 

I know you're using it, I'd just like to know where you got it from!

 

I waited out for it but it released at like 12 am where I am actually, I downloaded it but I had to go to sleep so I installed it and launched when I woke up and I can use it since then.

 

 

 

The issue I have is that I mod games quite extensively myself and it certainly does not take hours to sort a load order with LOOT. That is where I have the issue understanding arguments like yours. How is it taking you so long to sort your load order with LOOT and creating these rules? You say it's not good for a large load order, but the facts remain the same it most certainly is. We have proof of that by the people who have large load orders who do not seem to have the same issues as you. So what are you doing differently?

 

How does it take you hours to sort 200+ mods in your load order using LOOT when it only takes me minutes? Loot does most of the sorting itself, you just have to resolve the conflicts that it didn't sort or that you want a specific way. It takes a matter of seconds to create a rule and after an auto-sort, you shouldn't have that many rules you need to create. I feel like people who have it take hours must be doing something entirely wrong because that doesn't make any sense.

 

Like HalfLazy pointed out, it's hard to understand because we don't know what to think at this point because it doesn't make any sense from our perspective. And if you are exaggerating how long it takes, then you need to ask yourself why you feel the need to exaggerate how long it takes.

Im not even going to bother answering this because everyone knows LOOT is very far from perfect and you just can't rely on a Load Order it generates, i'd rather have my plugins sorted in categories, which isn't possible at all with Vortex.

 

 

LOOT isn't one of those tools where you just sort and then leave it. Of course, it's not going to be perfect. If you expect it to get it right 100%, you are doing it wrong and you don't know how to use it. It's a tool to make your time easier and save you time in having to do everything manually. It's always easier to sort a couple plugins than to have to sort them all. This is common sense. Also, the goal of Tannin is to get LOOT to be used more often in hopes it creates a surge in people submitting to the master list so that there is a higher chance of sorting with LOOT and not having to do anything else after.

 

As for sorting by category, that isn't what load order is for. There is literally no reason to sort it by category considering you would have to move mods out of such an order if it has to be loaded after another mod in a different category.

 

 

Thats why I keep a category at the bottom called Overrides, excuse me but I just find it plain stupid that Vortex decides to make a mess especially with my settlement workshop mods, why would they need to be scrambled along other plug ins? they're just additions to the workshop menu, they don't need to ''override'' anything yet loot thinks they do for some reason and decides to place them wherever it wants to, and I know I can set manual rules so those plugins load before another plugin but that again is time consuming especially when you don't have any visual guidance of where your plugins actually are, you just get a scrambled list with a bunch of weird esp names and a headache.

Again im not against the current system but I really really think we NEED an option to opt out of it, and sort plug ins manually, I wouldn't know why is it so hard to make because I don't know about software engineering but I mean come on, every single mod loader/ manager out there has the option to manually set priorities, or at the very least give us a better UI that actually displays the current load order and not just the scrambled list having to rely on another completely separate menu to see the special rules that you added for your 255 plug ins.

[PoorlyAged]

I have waded into this thread and I feel compelled to toss my wee pebble into the pond with some observations based on the comments thus far.

 

First, load order management is a BIG deal. Most in-game problems in modded games are a result of load order and not bad mods.

 

Second, Vortex is meant to be a replacement for NMM. Eventually you will have only Vortex. Thus, every comment which states that one can use Vortex AND NMM to manage your load order should be suspect.

 

Third, NMM has a couple of ways to manage you Load Order. One can 'drag and drop' a mod into position or one can use the little arrows on the left side to move a mod up and down in the load order. Both are convenient, easy to use and intuitive because they are what people are used to seeing in other areas of their lives. Vortex has similar "tools" for managing the RULES which govern the ordering of a mod, but these tools are managing the rules and not the load order.

 

Fourth, using rules and rule sets to manage mod load order is much more than just tedious and cumbersome. In HEAVILY modded games the introduction of a new mod or the removal of an unwanted mod becomes more about rules management and less about load order management. You will need to create a rule for any newly inserted mod AND adjust the rule for the mod which will now follow said newly inserted mod. Should you dislike a mod or want to try a alternative solution, you must again adjust the rules of the mod which follows any deleted mod.

 

With that, I have reached the end of my observations. Personally, I for one would much prefer to manage my load order, and not the rules which govern my load order. And I think that I am not alone in this.

 

< edit > I do not have Vortex downloaded. Every time I attempted to do so, I saw "limit reached" telling me I missed the boat again.

Edited February 9, 2018 by PoorlyAged

[cvansickle]

I have waded into this thread and I feel compelled to toss my wee pebble into the pond with some observations based on the comments thus far.

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First, load order management is a BIG deal. Most in-game problems in modded games are a result of load order and not bad mods.  Â

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Second, Vortex is meant to be a replacement for NMM. Eventually you will have only Vortex. Thus, every comment which states that one can use Vortex AND NMM to manage your load order should be suspect.Â

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Third, NMM has a couple of ways to manage you Load Order. One can 'drag and drop' a mod into position or one can use the little arrows on the left side to move a mod up and down in the load order. Both are convenient, easy to use and intuitive because they are what people are used to seeing in other areas of their lives. Vortex has similar "tools" for managing the RULES which govern the ordering of a mod, but these tools are managing the rules and not the load order.

Â

Fourth, using rules and rule sets to manage mod load order is much more than just tedious and cumbersome. In HEAVILY modded games the introduction of a new mod or the removal of an unwanted mod becomes more about rules management and less about load order management. You will need to create a rule for any newly inserted mod AND adjust the rule for the mod which will now follow said newly inserted mod. Should you dislike a mod or want to try a alternative solution, you must again adjust the rules of the mod which follows any deleted mod. Â

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With that, I have reached the end of my observations. Personally, I for one would much prefer to manage my load order, and not the rules which govern my load order. And I think that I am not alone in this. Â

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< edit > I do not have Vortex downloaded. Every time I attempted to do so, I saw "limit reached" telling me I missed the boat again.

MO(2) has all the tools you could possibly need, including manually adjusting your load order and, more importantly IMHO, manually adjusting your installation order of mods to control file overwrite.

 

Also, MO(2) won't be going away anytime soon, unlike NMM.

[Robbie922004]

So if LOOT rules are what govern load order, how does that work for games that aren't supported by LOOT? Load order is important with XCOM 2 mods for instance, but no LOOT support.

[HellKnightX88]

So if LOOT rules are what govern load order, how does that work for games that aren't supported by LOOT? Load order is important with XCOM 2 mods for instance, but no LOOT support.

Are we talking about load order of files or file overwriting in the case of XCOM 2?

[MarchinBunny]

 

 

 

Thats why I keep a category at the bottom called Overrides, excuse me but I just find it plain stupid that Vortex decides to make a mess especially with my settlement workshop mods, why would they need to be scrambled along other plug ins? they're just additions to the workshop menu, they don't need to ''override'' anything yet loot thinks they do for some reason and decides to place them wherever it wants to, and I know I can set manual rules so those plugins load before another plugin but that again is time consuming especially when you don't have any visual guidance of where your plugins actually are, you just get a scrambled list with a bunch of weird esp names and a headache.

Again im not against the current system but I really really think we NEED an option to opt out of it, and sort plug ins manually, I wouldn't know why is it so hard to make because I don't know about software engineering but I mean come on, every single mod loader/ manager out there has the option to manually set priorities, or at the very least give us a better UI that actually displays the current load order and not just the scrambled list having to rely on another completely separate menu to see the special rules that you added for your 255 plug ins.

 

Let me just say this one more time for you because you didn't seem to understand it the first time. There literally is no purpose to categorizing your load order. It does nothing. There isn't any reason to even need it categorized either. Why you even started doing that to begin with makes no sense. You should probably read the other thread in feedback. Tannin already went over this. But I have a feeling you are not going to like what he says. From his perspective you are doing your load order wrong if you are categorizing it. However, if someoen wants to make an extension to do what you want it to do, he is fine with that, but he is not going to include this feature himself.

 

As for settign rules. Again it's not time consuming. There is literalyl a drag and drop function. Yuo can grab one mod and drag and drop it under another mod and it will ask you the type of rule you want to create. Not I have not used it myself but that is what I have heard from reading these threads. But even without that, it really doesn't take that much time regardless. We are talking maybe a couple extra seconds at most. However, consdiering the rules are saved for next time it ends up saving you more time in the long run. But again, I suggest you go read the feedback forum, Tannin has answers all you questions there, though again, it's not going to be what you want to hear.

 

If you really need the old system then just wait for someone to make a plugin because Tannin is not going to include this in Vortex himself. Vortex already has all the tools you need to be able to sort your load order. He sees no reason to add another espeically since no one has been able to actually give any good reason to include it. It's most people just being used to the old way, not that the old way is any easier. But hey, if you think you can convince him, why not go over to the other thread and offer up your opinion since it doesn't seem he is repsonding to this thread. Though, again, I do suggest you read his previous posts first.

[MarchinBunny]

I have waded into this thread and I feel compelled to toss my wee pebble into the pond with some observations based on the comments thus far.

 

First, load order management is a BIG deal. Most in-game problems in modded games are a result of load order and not bad mods.

 

Second, Vortex is meant to be a replacement for NMM. Eventually you will have only Vortex. Thus, every comment which states that one can use Vortex AND NMM to manage your load order should be suspect.

 

Third, NMM has a couple of ways to manage you Load Order. One can 'drag and drop' a mod into position or one can use the little arrows on the left side to move a mod up and down in the load order. Both are convenient, easy to use and intuitive because they are what people are used to seeing in other areas of their lives. Vortex has similar "tools" for managing the RULES which govern the ordering of a mod, but these tools are managing the rules and not the load order.

 

Fourth, using rules and rule sets to manage mod load order is much more than just tedious and cumbersome. In HEAVILY modded games the introduction of a new mod or the removal of an unwanted mod becomes more about rules management and less about load order management. You will need to create a rule for any newly inserted mod AND adjust the rule for the mod which will now follow said newly inserted mod. Should you dislike a mod or want to try a alternative solution, you must again adjust the rules of the mod which follows any deleted mod.

 

With that, I have reached the end of my observations. Personally, I for one would much prefer to manage my load order, and not the rules which govern my load order. And I think that I am not alone in this.

 

< edit > I do not have Vortex downloaded. Every time I attempted to do so, I saw "limit reached" telling me I missed the boat again.

You are another person who should read that other thread in Vortex Feedback.

You and everyone else who state the rules are cumbersome are being absolutly ridiculous. It's not that hard. It's not that complicated. It doesn't take that much time. There technically is even a drag and drop function to allow you to create those rules. And yes, the rules DO manage your load order, that is what they are there for.

 

To me it just sounds like you dont't have a clue what you are talking about. To even say the rules don't manage load order makes literally no sense since that is what they are there for.

I am getting tired of havign to repeat myself so I might just stop and allow people to jsut continue to complain about it when your questions have already been answer. The answert is no. They are not including it. You will have to wait for someone else to make an extension.

 

Also, if you are creating a new rule for every newly insterted mod it means you are doing it wrong. Here is the process and let's see if I can show you this so you can understand it.

 

Let's say I have a load order (Going to use letters for the names)

C

D

G

H

F

A

E

B

 

The way vortex works is it sorts it automatically when you start up the game. In many cases you may not have to create a rule at all and it will just work.

A

B

C

D

E

F

G

H

 

In other cases, maybe it doesn't get it perfect and you get something like this

A

B

C

E

D

F

G

H

 

In this case you would need to make only 1 rule. Load E after D. Once you create that rule, it will autosort it that way from then on. Even if you add a mod, it's not going to break that rule. And the only time you will need to make another rule when adding a new mod is if it's not properly sorted. In most large load orders, 300+ plugins, LOOT generally does a pretty good job. I really don't think in most load order you will need to make more than 10 rules and that should become less as time goes on as the masterlist is added to.

 

Again, if you are creating a new rule for each mod, it means you are doing it wrong, period.

[sirjesto]

He sees no reason to add another espeically since no one has been able to actually give any good reason to include it.

 

I think the reason should be obvious. The public wants it. Regardless if you or Tannin or anyone else doesn't think it's needed, Many, many people do and for some it seems to be a deal breaker.

If this was a product (and in a way, it is) it wouldn't make good business sense to completely disregard a large base of your customers. Especially when it comes to something so simple as a drag and drop system.

 

But of course, someone is going to have a smart comeback as to why I'm wrong too I suppose.

Edited February 9, 2018 by sirjesto

[MarchinBunny]

 

He sees no reason to add another espeically since no one has been able to actually give any good reason to include it.

 

I think the reason should be obvious. The public wants it. Regardless if you or Tannin or anyone else doesn't think it's needed, Many, many people do and for some it seems to be a deal breaker.

If this was a product (and in a way, it is) it wouldn't make good business sense to completely disregard a large base of your customers. Especially when it comes to something so simple as a drag and drop system.

 

But of course, someone is going to have a smart comeback as to why I'm wrong too I suppose.

 

How many is many? How many is a large base of the customers? Did you count? What percentage of people want it compared to the percentage that don't need it?

I am making a guess you don't have answers to these questions because I don't either. It's never easy to tell simply based on a vocal bunch in a forum. I would throw a ball park number of maybe 90 - 95% of users don't use the forums. Also, people who tend to be satisified don't typically comment.

 

Not only that, but Tannin has alsso said that he has to decide on what features he feels are more important to implement. People simply wanting it, as of now you can't get a good or accurate represnetation of that. How many people will still want it after they use Vortex for a bit? For example, in the other thread someoen wanted it because he used it it keep a mod in the same place ID wise. The solution was to make a feature to lock the mod to that ID. So there wa a solution without having to go back to the old method. How many cases are going to be like that?

 

It's just a thing that is going to take time to really tell. And so, he is going to focus on what he feels is more important. He can still be convinced, he is open to idea and suggestion and everyone's thoughts. But it's not going to be easy to convince him.

 

Personally, I feel like this is going to be one of the first extensions made for Vortex by someone else. So I don't feel like people should worry too much about whether Vortex does this right nwo because I am betting it will soon even if it's not Tannin who does it.

[PoorlyAged]

 

I have waded into this thread and I feel compelled to toss my wee pebble into the pond with some observations based on the comments thus far.

 

First, load order management is a BIG deal. Most in-game problems in modded games are a result of load order and not bad mods.

 

Second, Vortex is meant to be a replacement for NMM. Eventually you will have only Vortex. Thus, every comment which states that one can use Vortex AND NMM to manage your load order should be suspect.

 

Third, NMM has a couple of ways to manage you Load Order. One can 'drag and drop' a mod into position or one can use the little arrows on the left side to move a mod up and down in the load order. Both are convenient, easy to use and intuitive because they are what people are used to seeing in other areas of their lives. Vortex has similar "tools" for managing the RULES which govern the ordering of a mod, but these tools are managing the rules and not the load order.

 

Fourth, using rules and rule sets to manage mod load order is much more than just tedious and cumbersome. In HEAVILY modded games the introduction of a new mod or the removal of an unwanted mod becomes more about rules management and less about load order management. You will need to create a rule for any newly inserted mod AND adjust the rule for the mod which will now follow said newly inserted mod. Should you dislike a mod or want to try a alternative solution, you must again adjust the rules of the mod which follows any deleted mod.

 

With that, I have reached the end of my observations. Personally, I for one would much prefer to manage my load order, and not the rules which govern my load order. And I think that I am not alone in this.

 

< edit > I do not have Vortex downloaded. Every time I attempted to do so, I saw "limit reached" telling me I missed the boat again.

You are another person who should read that other thread in Vortex Feedback.

You and everyone else who state the rules are cumbersome are being absolutly ridiculous. It's not that hard. It's not that complicated. It doesn't take that much time. There technically is even a drag and drop function to allow you to create those rules. And yes, the rules DO manage your load order, that is what they are there for.

 

To me it just sounds like you dont't have a clue what you are talking about. To even say the rules don't manage load order makes literally no sense since that is what they are there for.

I am getting tired of havign to repeat myself so I might just stop and allow people to jsut continue to complain about it when your questions have already been answer. The answert is no. They are not including it. You will have to wait for someone else to make an extension.

 

Also, if you are creating a new rule for every newly insterted mod it means you are doing it wrong. Here is the process and let's see if I can show you this so you can understand it.

 

Let's say I have a load order (Going to use letters for the names)

C

D

G

H

F

A

E

B

 

The way vortex works is it sorts it automatically when you start up the game. In many cases you may not have to create a rule at all and it will just work.

A

B

C

D

E

F

G

H

 

In other cases, maybe it doesn't get it perfect and you get something like this

A

B

C

E

D

F

G

H

 

In this case you would need to make only 1 rule. Load E after D. Once you create that rule, it will autosort it that way from then on. Even if you add a mod, it's not going to break that rule. And the only time you will need to make another rule when adding a new mod is if it's not properly sorted. In most large load orders, 300+ plugins, LOOT generally does a pretty good job. I really don't think in most load order you will need to make more than 10 rules and that should become less as time goes on as the masterlist is added to.

 

Again, if you are creating a new rule for each mod, it means you are doing it wrong, period.

 

 

I have three mods. Each one updates form Zed. Two update form Yankee. LOOT wants the mods loaded A, B, C. But I know that load order is a LIFO stack, so I want B last because it has the updated version of Zed I want to use. Further, I want the copy of Yankee from mod A. I want my load order to be C, A, B to ensure that the last version of each form I want comes from the correct mod. That is at least two rules for three mods and it gets more obtuse the more mods one has.

 

Your over simplification does no one service and is misleading at best. It also demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of what a mod actually is and the impact mod load order has on game play.