Managing the Load Order...

[FireStar999]

 

Tannin's attitude was enough to let me uninstall. Vortex will never ameliorate because of developer's stubbornness. Even if everyone says "Please add manual load order handling", he will reject it.

I think his "attitude" is to be expected when a bunch of ungrateful people come along and start hating on something they barely even gave a chance. Especially when most have not been able to even give a reasonable reason as to why they have an issue with this. Oh and btw you absolutely can manually sort mods, it's just using a different method to do so. One that will be better for everyone in the long run.

 

 

Im sorry but most of you people defending the new method often mention how we barely even gave it a chance and that we dont understand the new system, the problem is we do, we do know how it works and how to do it, we are not slow or anything like that you know? the thing is it just plain isn't good for large load orders, simple as that, its too confusing and it wont work like that, its no that I don't understand how dependencies work and the new system, its just I simply don't want to have the TASK of working like that, if I want to play fallout and arrange my mods Id want to do it as quickly as possible so I could just load up the game fast and play, I have no intention of screwing around with a wanky UI for HOURS until I get a decent order for my 255 plugin list, kay? I guess ill just stick to nexus/MO for now IMHO.

[HalfLazy]

Let's reverse the tide: why "us" (the "pro-Vortex") would be happy of a annoying/slow/whatever program? Because or you're calling us masochist or opportunist (not saying that you actually do, just how it sound, like you thinking that we were calling you "lazy" or "slow" or whatever)

 

I have an idea: I tell you my experience with Vortex, and then you tell me yours, It's actually the ONLY way to get a real feedback and understand each other.

 

My experience:

 

Fallout 4, 250+ Mods 220+ Plugins (+Vanillas)

 

Fresh Install of Fallout 4 (I keep a Vanilla Backup)

 

Nexus -> Tracking Center -> Downloaded the whole list (20 Elements for 11 Pages [some elements have multiple download, like bodyslides etc])

 

Download Time -> 2-3 Hours (long, but not related to Vortex, just me not having a premium membership and want to download all again)

 

Install archive Time -> 15 Minutes (Install -> Delpoying -> Enable)

[Note: Installed things like a noob purposely (In order of name to create an high amount of conflicts, If you used NMM you know what I mean)]

 

Conflict Spotted -> Notification -> More -> List of the Conflict -> Show -> Set which Load after and Which before -> 5-8 Minutes in total

 

Plugins List -> First impact "what a mess" -> Sort list by Load order -> Noted that all dependancies were respected -> Double click on horizon -> Global priority 120 -> Sort -> Horizon and all it's patch onthe bottom of the load Order

[Note: I don't remember but maybe I had to restart Vortex to get them updated correctly, it's on testing after all]

 

Fixed a couple of other things in the Load order of plugins -> 5 minutes

 

Installed F4SE -> Started the Bodyslides -> builded Outfits (various minutes, but this doesn't depends on Vortex)

 

Played the game -> No CTD, no problem, not weird issues

 

 

Result: 0 to 100 in half-hour, 250+ Mods, 220+ Plugins, still adding things (until I reach the roof)

 

I also made some profiles to switch between various mod set... I could swap between those in less than a minute (17499 elements for Vanilla to 250+ Mods)

 

To me it a fair good result for an alpha-limited testing program

 

 

 

Now, as you can see I'm not managing 10 mods, and I had no difficult to manage the errors, so when I came here and see:

Someone: "this program is a mess"

I: ask why

Someone: "Manual load order is better"

I: Try to explain how it works

Someone: "You're treating me like an idiot! This program is s#*!, is annoying, is a mess, NMM was better"

 

The only conclusion that I could get is that I'm speaking with a Troll, a stupid or a really lazy one.

[Not saying that you are, only trying to explain my point of view]

 

 

 

Said so, sorry for the wall of text but was necessary to explain why I think this way:

Now, could you try to make ME understand YOUR point of view based on your experience with Vortex?

[MarchinBunny]

 

 

Tannin's attitude was enough to let me uninstall. Vortex will never ameliorate because of developer's stubbornness. Even if everyone says "Please add manual load order handling", he will reject it.

I think his "attitude" is to be expected when a bunch of ungrateful people come along and start hating on something they barely even gave a chance. Especially when most have not been able to even give a reasonable reason as to why they have an issue with this. Oh and btw you absolutely can manually sort mods, it's just using a different method to do so. One that will be better for everyone in the long run.

 

 

Im sorry but most of you people defending the new method often mention how we barely even gave it a chance and that we dont understand the new system, the problem is we do, we do know how it works and how to do it, we are not slow or anything like that you know? the thing is it just plain isn't good for large load orders, simple as that, its too confusing and it wont work like that, its no that I don't understand how dependencies work and the new system, its just I simply don't want to have the TASK of working like that, if I want to play fallout and arrange my mods Id want to do it as quickly as possible so I could just load up the game fast and play, I have no intention of screwing around with a *censored*y UI for HOURS until I get a decent order for my 255 plugin list, kay? I guess ill just stick to nexus/MO for now IMHO.

 

The issue I have is that I mod games quite extensively myself and it certainly does not take hours to sort a load order with LOOT. That is where I have the issue understanding arguments like yours. How is it taking you so long to sort your load order with LOOT and creating these rules? You say it's not good for a large load order, but the facts remain the same it most certainly is. We have proof of that by the people who have large load orders who do not seem to have the same issues as you. So what are you doing differently?

 

How does it take you hours to sort 200+ mods in your load order using LOOT when it only takes me minutes? Loot does most of the sorting itself, you just have to resolve the conflicts that it didn't sort or that you want a specific way. It takes a matter of seconds to create a rule and after an auto-sort, you shouldn't have that many rules you need to create. I feel like people who have it take hours must be doing something entirely wrong because that doesn't make any sense.

 

Like HalfLazy pointed out, it's hard to understand because we don't know what to think at this point because it doesn't make any sense from our perspective. And if you are exaggerating how long it takes, then you need to ask yourself why you feel the need to exaggerate how long it takes.

[Dark0ne]

Im sorry but most of you people defending the new method often mention how we barely even gave it a chance and that we dont understand the new system, the problem is we do, we do know how it works and how to do it, we are not slow or anything like that you know?

 

 

Your download history says you did not download the limited Vortex alpha....so uh...are you talking from experience using Vortex here? And if so, where did you download it from?

[sopmac45]

 

Loot is fine and all but there are mods that conflict with each other and some people may want a specific one to override the other in the conflicts for X reason(s). Using priorities instead of drag and move complicates things more not simplifies them.

So just use the simple Load After instead of Priorities. LOOT imho is brilliant ..

 

Mod Authors could make far more use of it than they currently do, and just submit a technical argument with good logical reasoning as to why their mod should go in a certain place or after a certain plugin .. In the LOOT development thread. If it is a valid case then the positioning will be permanently added by the team to the masterlist, and LOOT forever after would do the correcting for you.

 

LOOT will generally put a mod with the most amount of record changes out of all plugins first because to do it the other way around makes it win over all other smaller mods just changing one of those records in conflict. The idea being if the smaller ones load later, they win, if the user wants the bigger mod to win in that case .. remove the smaller mod.

 

It has a lot of considerations, all of which can be overridden by the masterlist and mod authors explaining a good enough reason as to why technically their mod should be on the list and made to load in specific ways.

 

If mod authors dont talk to the LOOT team, nothing gets done. So then it is left to users of the mod to either suggest it, or use meta data Priorities or Load after.

Before LOOT came along, BOSS was the tool of choice for Load Ordering, and had a well developed masterlist with thousands of common mod ordering mistakes corrected .. Because authors and more expert users of the mods used to talk to the tool makers.

 

 

Or .. Maybe they could include Bash Tags in their mods header, to get Bash to carry forward any important records into the Bashed Patch every time it is rebuilt, so that smaller mods with more than just a few records can be trumped by selective Bash Tag additions. Admittedly Patchers need further development for newer games like Skyrim and Fallout 4, but they will be coming (when Utumno gets his head around doing them after all the refactoring he has been doing), maybe suggestions to the development team would ensure a particular patcher requirements are noted as needed for a particular game.

 

Screenshot - Bash Tags in the header of the Unofficial Oblivion Patch

Screenshot - User chooses here whether to leave the Bash Tag ticked for UOP or not

Bashed Patch loads last, and Bash Tag included records in the Rebuild of the bashed patch win.

 

 

I recommended to Tannin42 to ask mod authors to include a code in the mods, to be applied by Vortex/LOOT automatically so the priority/dependencies are not necessary for certain mods that for example must be either on the top or bottom of the load order. This is very doable from programming standpoint and will resolve the issue. This way, not matter what, that say mod, will be placed automatically in the specific order it should be regardless.

 

There are a lot of people with experience but If I choose 1000 players randomly, probably 950 would not know how to deal with dependencies, to really know which mod should override which, why, etc, etc, etc, ..... the thing is that full automation is necessary and when I suggested full automation, I meant the entire load order done by Vortex and let Vortex decides which mod, from the downloaded/installed mods goes first and which goes after. Is this possible ? I do believe it is. On the other side of the night, if you want to do everything manually, go for it. I prefer the first because It is a pain in my butt to be dealing with load orders, dependencies, priorities, etc, etc, ... Vortex should automate and simplify this process to the point that the only thing I need to do is install the mods that I want, let Vortex to sort my load order accordingly and play my game.

 

I am not lazy and I have been learning for more than a year about this and I know how to handle xEdit and I have even made some custom mods for myself but at the expense of investing a lot of time asking question that most of the time are not answered, reading, researching, etc, so gaming has been painful and that is my whole point. I will continue learning and thru Vortex, I can have one game with two or more profiles and use one of them to learn all this stuff and I do not mind that at all, but my game, the one in my profile that is for my entertainment, should be sorted automatically ( including all the fuss about dependencies and priorities ) by Vortex.

[Stiffon]

 

Im sorry but most of you people defending the new method often mention how we barely even gave it a chance and that we dont understand the new system, the problem is we do, we do know how it works and how to do it, we are not slow or anything like that you know?

 

 

Your download history says you did not download the limited Vortex alpha....so uh...are you talking from experience using Vortex here? And if so, where did you download it from?

 

Solid burn. ;)

[FireStar999]

The issue I have is that I mod games quite extensively myself and it certainly does not take hours to sort a load order with LOOT. That is where I have the issue understanding arguments like yours. How is it taking you so long to sort your load order with LOOT and creating these rules? You say it's not good for a large load order, but the facts remain the same it most certainly is. We have proof of that by the people who have large load orders who do not seem to have the same issues as you. So what are you doing differently?

 

How does it take you hours to sort 200+ mods in your load order using LOOT when it only takes me minutes? Loot does most of the sorting itself, you just have to resolve the conflicts that it didn't sort or that you want a specific way. It takes a matter of seconds to create a rule and after an auto-sort, you shouldn't have that many rules you need to create. I feel like people who have it take hours must be doing something entirely wrong because that doesn't make any sense.

 

Like HalfLazy pointed out, it's hard to understand because we don't know what to think at this point because it doesn't make any sense from our perspective. And if you are exaggerating how long it takes, then you need to ask yourself why you feel the need to exaggerate how long it takes.

Im not even going to bother answering this because everyone knows LOOT is very far from perfect and you just can't rely on a Load Order it generates, i'd rather have my plugins sorted in categories, which isn't possible at all with Vortex.

 

 

 

Im sorry but most of you people defending the new method often mention how we barely even gave it a chance and that we dont understand the new system, the problem is we do, we do know how it works and how to do it, we are not slow or anything like that you know?

 

 

Your download history says you did not download the limited Vortex alpha....so uh...are you talking from experience using Vortex here? And if so, where did you download it from?

 

 

Why would I know why the download history won't show it up, as if I worked for the nexus to know that kind of stuff.. I did download it from the Skyrim SE nexus and if you don't believe me here's a screenie of me using it atm, why would I talk out of my arse just to flame Vortex , I gain nothing, all im trying to do is provide feedback as you asked and now I get persecuted for it, jeez.

 

https://i.imgur.com/XuY6X5w.png

[FireStar999]

 

 

Im sorry but most of you people defending the new method often mention how we barely even gave it a chance and that we dont understand the new system, the problem is we do, we do know how it works and how to do it, we are not slow or anything like that you know?

 

 

Your download history says you did not download the limited Vortex alpha....so uh...are you talking from experience using Vortex here? And if so, where did you download it from?

 

Solid burn. :wink:

 

 

Well if only their servers/web design was as solid as that burn, maybe there wouldn't even be a burn to talk about.

[Dark0ne]

Your download history is recording plenty of downloads off your account, just not the Vortex one itself, which is obviously suspect. Are you sure you didn't download it from another site or another user didn't give you the installer via Discord or similar? Or even if you downloaded it on a different account? We've logged your API key being registered and used for the first time 12 hours after the download page for Vortex was closed.

 

I know you're using it, I'd just like to know where you got it from!

[MarchinBunny]

 

The issue I have is that I mod games quite extensively myself and it certainly does not take hours to sort a load order with LOOT. That is where I have the issue understanding arguments like yours. How is it taking you so long to sort your load order with LOOT and creating these rules? You say it's not good for a large load order, but the facts remain the same it most certainly is. We have proof of that by the people who have large load orders who do not seem to have the same issues as you. So what are you doing differently?

 

How does it take you hours to sort 200+ mods in your load order using LOOT when it only takes me minutes? Loot does most of the sorting itself, you just have to resolve the conflicts that it didn't sort or that you want a specific way. It takes a matter of seconds to create a rule and after an auto-sort, you shouldn't have that many rules you need to create. I feel like people who have it take hours must be doing something entirely wrong because that doesn't make any sense.

 

Like HalfLazy pointed out, it's hard to understand because we don't know what to think at this point because it doesn't make any sense from our perspective. And if you are exaggerating how long it takes, then you need to ask yourself why you feel the need to exaggerate how long it takes.

Im not even going to bother answering this because everyone knows LOOT is very far from perfect and you just can't rely on a Load Order it generates, i'd rather have my plugins sorted in categories, which isn't possible at all with Vortex.

 

 

LOOT isn't one of those tools where you just sort and then leave it. Of course, it's not going to be perfect. If you expect it to get it right 100%, you are doing it wrong and you don't know how to use it. It's a tool to make your time easier and save you time in having to do everything manually. It's always easier to sort a couple plugins than to have to sort them all. This is common sense. Also, the goal of Tannin is to get LOOT to be used more often in hopes it creates a surge in people submitting to the master list so that there is a higher chance of sorting with LOOT and not having to do anything else after.

 

As for sorting by category, that isn't what load order is for. There is literally no reason to sort it by category considering you would have to move mods out of such an order if it has to be loaded after another mod in a different category.