LOOT Groups

[Tannin42]

Starting with Vortex 0.15.0 we bundle the new LOOT API 0.13.

The major change in this LOOT release is that priorities have been dropped in favour of groups. Groups are a way to achive the same thing but they

are more intuitive and descriptive since you work with names instead of a number between -127 and +127 and they integrate better with the dependency

mechanism.

 

Now every plugin (esm/esp/esl) is part of a group ("default" is the fallback group) and groups, just like plugins, have dependencies between each

other. There is a preconfigured set of groups but you can easily add your own.

 

To avoid confusion: These load order groups are not categories for you to "clean up", they are a more readable and powerful replacement for numerical priorities.

They are still intended to be used for conflict resolution only.

While it's your own choice how you group your plugins it is important to realize that the more granular your groups become, the more rules you will have to

set up to produce a sensible load order and the more likely it becomes you produce a cycle between your rules and pre-existing dependencies.

Since the pre-configured groups try to be as broad as possible, finding good names is not easy so don't be confused if some associations aren't great

(like RealisticWaterTwo.esp being in the "Alternate Start" group). The primary goal here is to produce a good load order, not to classify everything nicely.

 

In the following I want to demonstrate how you could use that. I'm using some random plugins I currently have installed, please do not take the

following as a suggestion for a load order, it's just a demonstration of the group feature!

 

 

 

Without customisation you can see that DLCs have been assigned to their own group, USSEP is in the group "Unofficial Patches" and the wrye Bashed Patch is assigned to "Dynamic Patches"

The DLCs and Unofficial Patches are loaded before the "default" plugins and Dynamic Patches at the bottom (except for the esls), which is the same thing LOOT did before using priorities.

 

As a demonstration we want to force all our Lore Weapon Expansion esps to load last (after the bashed patch).

 

First step is to select all the "Lore Weapon Expansion" plugins and press the space bar. This opens the detail pane for the selected mods which currently only contains the group (this is because Vortex will only certain attributes when you multi select)

 

 

 

In this drop down box you can assign an existing group or just type a new name and hit enter to create a new one. For this experiment I will create a new group, then close the sidebar

 

 

 

This is all it takes to create a group and add plugins to it but we also have to make the group load last. For this click the "Manage Groups" button. A new dialog opens

 

 

 

Here you see a graph of all existing groups, connected by arrows that determine their load order ("DLC" is the first, "Dynamic LOD" the last. "default" is at the center, being the fallback group).

 

You will also notice that at "default" the graph branches out to "Immersive Citizens" and our new group "Weapons". What this means is that right now, LOOT/Vortex will ensure that all plugins in the "Immersive Citizens" group and the "Weapons" group will load after all plugins in the default group (and all the groups above it), but it won't care how those plugins load related to the groups from "Races" to "Dynamic LOD" - unless there are plugin rules.

 

Our goal was to load Weapons after dynamic patches and the little box at the bottom left explains how to change the tree.

We drag a line from "Dynamic Patches" to "Weapons".

 

 

 

At this point we're done, mission accomplished.

You might want to delete the connection between default and Weapons because it's obsolete (Weapons load after Dynamic Patches and Dynamic Patches loads after default, this implies that Weapons also loads after default)

Please note that while Weapons loads after Dynamic Patches and Map Markers loads after Dynamic Patches as well, there is no relation between Weapons and Map Markers. Weapons could load before Map Markers, after them or mixed. If you want your load order to be more deterministic you may want to create another rule to clarify that situation.

 

You can close the dialog and hit sort, you will find the Lore Weapon plugins loaded after your Bashed Patch...

 

 

 

... unless "Lore Weapon Expansion.esp" was actually included in the patch like in my case. My bashed patch has "Lore Weapon Expansion.esp" as a master so it has to, has to, has to load after it. This strong dependency beats the group dependency we just set up.

What a twist!

 

As you can see with the other esps the process works, they are placed behind the bashed patch and remain there no matter how often you sort, but please keep in mind that other dependencies (masters or plugin-specific rules) also want to be enforced and may disagree with the group order.

[DarkDominion]

I find this quite ridiculous. We need to "patch"a new implementation of LOOT ?

Now I need to run through my 146 mod list to solve all the problems which I didn't have before the update.

 

Users need to solve the "default" classification and LOOTS implementation of a new rule set without thinking about those "default" mods and Vortex is just running happily along with LOOT.

Again I say : Vortex is WAY to dependent on LOOT

 

EDIT 1 : Realistic Water Two is classified as "Alternate Start" mod, come on !!

Skyrim.esm - DEFAULT ???? Seriously ???

 

EDIT 2 : 13 out of the 146 mods are NOT classified as "default", that means more than 90% of my mods are default, happy sorting !

 

EDIT 3 : Some mods have dependencies inside the mod ( put there by LOOT ).

Put your mods in a group, like your precious weapons, and you'll soon find out ONE of them makes it that the WHOLE group of Weapons can't be placed

BEFORE/AFTER one particular other group, but it doesn't say it's the case, it only churns out the almighty "CYCLIC" warning.

 

EDIT 4: Even if the basic groups ( like morrow loot ultimate and alternative start ) are empty, it STILL churns out the CYCLIC warning between those two, and I do not have ONE mod in that group ?

 

This is utterly frustrating

[Tannin42]

You are conflusing load order groups with categories. The point of this feature is not for you to classify your mods, you're not supposed to "solve the default classification".

You're supposed to use this to resolve conflicts between plugins in broader strokes than with plugin-specific rules.

Only use this to resolve conflicts!

 

It's really in your best interest to keep the default group intact because the more granular you split up that group, the more rules you need later to put anything after

the bulk of your plugins and the harder it gets to avoid cycles. As you've already learned yourself.

 

EDIT: I added a paragraph to the initial post to hopefully prevent this kind of confusion.

[Grestorn]

To add to Tannin's comment:

 

The groups are replacing the global priority. As most mods had priority "0" previously, they now have the group "default".

 

This is all up to LOOT, not Vortex by the way. Also, which mod is in which group by default is a matter of Loot.

 

Since "Realistic Water Two" probably just had the same global priority as "Alternate Start" before, they're now in the same group. That should be fixed, which is much easier now, because you can always introduce a new group and place it in between two existing ones, which was not possible with numeric priorities before (you cannot place a new priority between 9 and 10 for example).

[sopmac45]

You are conflusing load order groups with categories. The point of this feature is not for you to classify your mods, you're not supposed to "solve the default classification".

You're supposed to use this to resolve conflicts between plugins in broader strokes than with plugin-specific rules.

Only use this to resolve conflicts!

 

It's really in your best interest to keep the default group intact because the more granular you split up that group, the more rules you need later to put anything after

the bulk of your plugins and the harder it gets to avoid cycles. As you've already learned yourself.

 

EDIT: I added a paragraph to the initial post to hopefully prevent this kind of confusion.

 

 

Tannin42 .... again, setting up rules in the MODS tab and let auto-sort to sort the PLUGINS and play ( without paying attention to how the load order looks like .. ) .... and only if conflicts arise, to use this method, right ?

 

How about some mods being suggested by authors to go in a sequential strict order ? Will Vortex sort them out correctly or do we have to use this new method ?

 

Are you saying that "" Dependencies "" are not longer available with the new update ?

 

Thanks so much ! :cool:

[passionatepilgrim]

A)

 

So, I'm trying to re-work my load order and I'm getting some strange behavior.

 

For example, I tried putting MLU in the MLU group. Then I put Skyrim Unbound in the Alternate Start Group. For some reason, that pushed Lanterns of Skyrim to the very bottom of the load order. The only rule I have tied to Lanterns is that the USSEP comes after it, which is a default rule from loot, not one I added. I put both MLU and Unbound back to the default group and then the sort put Lanterns back to first slot after the DLCs.

 

 

B)

 

I'm randomly getting the ability to drag my groups around to reposition them if I don't like the layout. But most of the time it won't let me drag it. I have to close the manage groups window and re-open it for the layout to automatically update.

[passionatepilgrim]

I noticed that the manage groups window is letting me delete the dependency between DLC group and unofficial patch group. I don't think it's supposed to let me change the base loot groups, right?

[passionatepilgrim]

I have another odd one. I was moving Wildcat to the LOD group. It moved to the second to last slot, but for some reason, Unbound was taking the last slot even though it was in the default group. I don't have any rules on either plugin. So, I then put Unbound in the Alternate Start group. It still sorted below Wildcat. Then I put a rule on Wildcat that it comes after Unbound, but Unbound continues to sort after Wildcat.

 

 

 

I think the new loot engine has more than cyclic rules bugs. It's got sorting bugs too.

 

I might resort to manually managing my load order after all...

[Grestorn]

 

B)

 

I'm randomly getting the ability to drag my groups around to reposition them if I don't like the layout. But most of the time it won't let me drag it. I have to close the manage groups window and re-open it for the layout to automatically update.

 

I've found that to drag a group, you have to click the outer rim of the bubble. Clicking in the center will start a dependency line. But maybe you've encountered another bug I haven't seen yet.

 

To update the layout, you can right click in an empty area and select "Layout".

[passionatepilgrim]

 

 

B)

 

I'm randomly getting the ability to drag my groups around to reposition them if I don't like the layout. But most of the time it won't let me drag it. I have to close the manage groups window and re-open it for the layout to automatically update.

 

I've found that to drag a group, you have to click the outer rim of the bubble. Clicking in the center will start a dependency line. But maybe you've encountered another bug I haven't seen yet.

 

To update the layout, you can right click in an empty area and select "Layout".

 

 

Yeah, I've tried that. Updating the layout from the right click menu doesn't always do something. But closing the window and re-opening always works.

 

I admit, I'm playing around trying to see what I can and can't do, going so far as to delete my DLC dependency and then adding it back, which I'm not supposed to be able to do. I might have created some kind of condition that is having a cascading effect that most people won't encounter.