Donation Points system now live for mod authors on Nexus Mods

[DaedalusMachina007]

In response to post #60350082. #60350272, #60355137, #60356532, #60356787 are all replies on the same post.

Reneer wrote:

Looking over the details, this system seems terrible as it is. Authors now have reason to no longer bundle files in one place for user friendliness. People like me, who make compatibility patches left behind from this system in that way. It's not glamorous work and this just makes it even less so. Not that I care about making any coffee money off this ridiculousness, but I have 50+ patches on one page...downloaded 10's of thousands of times but by 13k "unique" people. Instead, now there is all the incentive to just release a new page for every similar file. It's not any less exploitable because it's not per-file but per-page.

Except that if you split your 50 patches into 50 pages, you'll likely get 1/50 of the downloads for each patch, so likely around 260 unique downloads per patch. It's not as if people will download all 50 patches because they won't be using the underlying 50 mods the patches rely on (or are very unlikely to do so). There might be a small incentive to split mod variations into different pages, but it's unlikely going to somehow add up to 2x or 1.25x the downloads because people will only use one variation of the mod.

 

Now the issue I foresee as being a problem is if a mod author releases a "main file" on one mod page and then creates new mod pages for each patch / update, forcing users to "double dip" and inflate the overall unique download numbers. But I'm pretty sure that's against the rules somewhere already. Haven't found it yet, though.

Zeridian wrote: Except that they do, I have access to the data dude. That's simply not accurate in the least. There may be some reduction, but overall I would gain far more unique downloads by splitting them up, even if by the inconvenience some people somehow dismiss their need for the file.

As it is, if those files were split up, the unique downloads (as counted by this system) would go from 12-13k to around 120k. And that's being conservative and assuming some people would throw their arms up over the inconvenience. Why? The concept of supply and demand.

Edit: Not even that since my example is slightly off, because what we are shown is the unique downloads for the sum of the files for the page. The opt-in system uses unique users, not even total unique downloads on the page. So if you have 12-13k unique downloads, you aren't even getting that because the unique users is spread multiple times between those unique downloads per file. The incentive problem is still the same and exploitable though.

I could take what is potentially only 2000 unique user downloads (when I'm displayed 12k unique file downloads) and split the files into separate pages and see it multiply upwards to that figure, although it probably wouldn't hit the same amount. Probably in the range of 7-10k.

dikr wrote: @Zeridian.

I agree. That's the only way I can see how people would be able to 'abuse' the system to maximize DP. But the question remains to what extend you can actually call it abuse.

If people split up their work in various patches and parts to individual pages, it would only slightly inconvenience users if provided with proper links and in that, it's a valid thing to do, I suppose. There are plenty of mods with only very minor changes or additions, as it is, and you can't really police 'completeness' or 'substance'.

Yet such a 'divide and conquer' strategy might backfire too: a combined / complete file with more quality content will probably get more thumbs up and votes translating in better exposure on the front page and maybe FOTM and with that, more downloads, compared to a mod which looks to be 'chopped up'.

p.s. Retroactively chopping up old, popular mods, seems a complete waste of effort in my eyes, as the peak of unique downloads will be gathered in the first months after release and become an ever thinning stream afterwards.

Dark0ne wrote: This is covered in our Donation Point Terms and Service. We will moderate against this if people do it, and we will remove people's ability to use the DP system entirely if they continue to abuse the system based on our own interpretation of what constitutes abuse, not theirs.

If you have a mod, and you're patching that mod, that patch should always be on the same mod page and not a separate mod page.

dikr wrote: Thanks for the heads up, Dark0ne. Didn't even know that. I falsely assumed that multiple people uploading various files and fixes for the same source file carried over for original uploaders so that's kind of surprising to me. Only loophole I can see to circumvent that is using multiple accounts I suppose. But I reckon those would stand out quickly.

With all due respect, I don't believe the Nexus team is large enough to police/moderate the entire community against abuses. And if you want the community to police itself then we get another 'hands off Valve' situation. I don't believe the Nexus should go down this route.

Please consider just automatically donating 100% of generated funds to a charity that the modder chooses (or if they don't choose then choose a random one rotated each month). You'll get massively awesome PR and avoid this clusterpork of a mess that this entire discussion has become.

[Kalell]

Wow, $100,000. That's really generous and more than I expected. Very cool guys!

[Dark0ne]

In response to post #60361087.

Shezrie wrote:

I opted out as all my mods use other peoples voice acting and mod assets, however the 'Mods Rewards Wallet' button still shows in between the 'Settings' and 'Messages' button, is this something that may be removed in future when people opt out?

We can probably sort that out at some point, Shezrie. The wallet icon still shows right now because it doesn't delete any DP you might already have (for obvious reasons). But obviously, no one has DP right now, and we should probably make it so opted out + no DP = no icon shows.

[Dark0ne]

In response to post #60360162. #60360952, #60368202, #60368902 are all replies on the same post.

Vanguardascendant wrote:

I'm surprised by all the people complaining about this system that have never uploaded a mod, nor are they even paying nexus subscribers. You have literally no skin in the game. You're just complaining about other people doing things in their own free time that you don't like.

 

This donation pool system might not be perfect, but to the best of my knowledge, it's the best attempt so far. Maybe even the ONLY attempt so far. If you don't like it, simply don't participate. And can we stop with the fire and brimstone predictions about this ruining all modding forever and ever?

 

Though I would like to echo an earlier suggestion that we change the name from Donation Pool to Nexus Bucks :smile:

 

That's just my own not-so-humble opinion.

Lollia wrote: Another perspective to keep in mind is that there are actually many people who have learned the Creation Kit and made their own mods that they may be in the process of refining (gathering permissions, checking for compatibilities, etc...) in order to one day share with others on the Nexus. Perhaps such people have already juggled with all the pros and cons of sharing their work to begin with, and then all of a sudden this new system gets put into place, introducing a new hurdle to their already complicated decision.
Food for thought.

DaedalusMachina007 wrote: You know Vanguard, as a modder myself...you should kindly f*** off with that attitude.
You do not speak for everyone. Speak for yourself and yourself ONLY.

Gaming and Modding are for EVERYONE!
Nobody left behind! Find what you enjoy and love the games! ^_^

To all those who are modders or not-modders, please feel free to be as vocal as you like while being respectful to the Nexus Staff.
Thank you.

Vanguardascendant wrote: Daedalus, I'm not sure what you're deal is or if you actually read my post. You probably missed the part where i clearly stated that my statement was just my own opinion. But if it makes you feel good to drop F-bombs and act like you're really contributing to the discussion, go for it. Statements like, "f*#@ off" really add to the discourse. Thanks for sharing your opinion and keeping the conversation civil.

Tidied up the posts on this one. You definitely don't get to tell others to "f*** off". Calm down, please.

[Vanguardascendant]

In response to post #60360162. #60360952, #60368202, #60368902, #60368977 are all replies on the same post.

Vanguardascendant wrote:

I'm surprised by all the people complaining about this system that have never uploaded a mod, nor are they even paying nexus subscribers. You have literally no skin in the game. You're just complaining about other people doing things in their own free time that you don't like.

 

This donation pool system might not be perfect, but to the best of my knowledge, it's the best attempt so far. Maybe even the ONLY attempt so far. If you don't like it, simply don't participate. And can we stop with the fire and brimstone predictions about this ruining all modding forever and ever?

 

Though I would like to echo an earlier suggestion that we change the name from Donation Pool to Nexus Bucks :smile:

 

That's just my own not-so-humble opinion.

Lollia wrote: Another perspective to keep in mind is that there are actually many people who have learned the Creation Kit and made their own mods that they may be in the process of refining (gathering permissions, checking for compatibilities, etc...) in order to one day share with others on the Nexus. Perhaps such people have already juggled with all the pros and cons of sharing their work to begin with, and then all of a sudden this new system gets put into place, introducing a new hurdle to their already complicated decision.
Food for thought.

DaedalusMachina007 wrote: You know Vanguard, as a modder myself...you should kindly f*** off with that attitude.
You do not speak for everyone. Speak for yourself and yourself ONLY.

Gaming and Modding are for EVERYONE!
Nobody left behind! Find what you enjoy and love the games! ^_^

To all those who are modders or not-modders, please feel free to be as vocal as you like while being respectful to the Nexus Staff.
Thank you.

Vanguardascendant wrote: Daedalus, I'm not sure what you're deal is or if you actually read my post. You probably missed the part where i clearly stated that my statement was just my own opinion. But if it makes you feel good to drop F-bombs and act like you're really contributing to the discussion, go for it. Statements like, "f*#@ off" really add to the discourse. Thanks for sharing your opinion and keeping the conversation civil.

Dark0ne wrote: Tidied up the posts on this one. You definitely don't get to tell others to "f*** off". Calm down, please.

Thanks.

[Chiaro22]

Thanks for setting this up, Dark0ne and others at Nexusmods. :thumbsup:

 

Let the coffee and tea flow!

[Reneer]

With all due respect, I don't believe the Nexus team is large enough to police/moderate the entire community against abuses. And if you want the community to police itself then we get another 'hands off Valve' situation. I don't believe the Nexus should go down this route.

The Nexus staff hasn't been large enough to police the entire community for well over a decade if not longer. The community has been self-policing, reporting abuses to staff when necessary, for pretty much the entire time the Nexus has existed in its current form. The sky isn't going to suddenly fall down here.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Reneer

[vronykah]

In response to post #60328346. #60329511, #60335036 are all replies on the same post.

steve40 wrote:

There seems to be a bug with setting Permissions to earn donation points in the mod Permissions page - it defaults to "you have permission" if no option is ticked, however, no matter what option I select (yes, no, ask first), the permission changes to "you do not have permission". Also, this section appears greyed out compared with the other permissions options:

 

Result:

 

SirSalami wrote: Hey Steve. When selecting any of the "Yes" options in the assets permissions section, the DP permissions should become selectable. If this is not the case for you, please let us know. Thanks!

Arthmoor wrote: I think this option needs to be available regardless of other permissions since they're all defaulted to enabled right now and we might only want to change it to "ask first" which is currently impossible without unlocking one of the other options.

I am having the same issue. Everything was set to "ask for permission first." I switched a few to "yes" so that I could change the DP to "ask for permission," but it still didn't work for me. Just says "no" now. The section is also greyed out for me as well. Edited May 25, 2018 by vronykah

[zyd232]

Cool. Thanks for this attempt to encourage modders.

 

It's a good time for mod authors. Especially for some people who have no business sense like me. XD

 

But I think it will have some issues for thoses mods which use assets from other places. Things may become complicated.

Edited May 25, 2018 by zyd232

[andyjs]

I love the idea in principle, especially as I'm not in a position to donate directly myself. Ideally I'd like to see a modder's helpfulness and willingness to engage with users rewarded as well, but I realise that's almost impossible to measure objectively and you've got enough to be doing.

 

Off the top of my head though I can see an issue that could be fixed, or at least accounted for (apologies if already addressed).

 

Doesn't it skew unfairly towards makers of mods for the most popular games? As an example, the most downloaded Companion mod (comparing the same category to be more equitable) for Morrowind (comparatively high on the list of supported games at no.9) has had about 1,500 unique dls. The one for Oblivion (no.5) has had nearly 38,000. For Skyrim (no.1) over ten times that, at around 388,000 uniques. Even though the payout is based on downloads in the last 30 days, those numbers are going to skew similarly I think; probably even more so. That was a flawed example because doesn't take into account how long those mods have been available, but gives a rough idea (similar ratios can be seen just looking at recent mods).

 

I appreciate it's almost impossible to make a 100% fair system but maybe some sort of maths could be applied to factor in the game's overall popularity and give modders of less popular games a chance to get something significant from the pot?

Something like - take the number of unique downloads for the period for each mod, then divide by the total number of unique downloads for all mods for that game only over the same period, multiplied by (say) 100 to avoid too many 0.xxx numbers (unnecessary step, but handier for this example). This gives a figure that represents the popularity of the mod among nexus users of that specific game. For the sake of this example let's call that figure AP (Andy Points - what an ego eh?). Then use the number of AP to determine the number of DP (and therefore cash etc) each mod gets.

 

Example using made up (but vaguely plausible) figures for simplicity -

 

Albert makes a mod for Morrowind which gets 100 uniques in the first period. The total number for the game in that period is 1000.

Brenda makes a similar mod for Oblivion and gets 1000 uniques. Total for the game 10,000.

Chuck makes again a similar mod for Skyrim and gets 10,000 uniques. Total for the game 100,000.

 

Using your example figures from the FAQ, there are 2 DP to assign per unique. So, (without applying my idea), Albert gets 200 DP, Brenda gets 2000 DP, and Chuck is in the money with 20,000 DP. Each of them gave a similar amount of blood, sweat and tears, and each of them did work that was similarly popular among players of their respective game.

 

Using my idea, Albert gets (100/1000)x100=10 AP, as does Brenda (1000/10000)x100 and Chuck (10,000/100,000)x100.

Then let's say you've got (as per your FAQ example) 10 million DP to dish out, and a total of (say) 2,000 AP accrued across the site. Divide total DP by total AP, giving you a DP value for that month of 5000 per AP. So our friends above get 50,000 DP each (APxDP value), so $50 (which weirdly turns out to be the example amount in your FAQ). Someone who got 20,000 uniques for Skyrim would get 100,000 DP, someone who got 100 would get 500 DP, so it's still based on popularity, just now within the context of each game.

 

Does that make any sense? I'm sure there's a more elegant solution. It'd also need working on to avoid someone making a simple mod for a very, very obscure game, getting one download (maybe from a mate), getting 100AP and netting 500,000 DP. Maybe a minimum number of dls to be eligible and the game needs a certain number of mods in that month from unique modders? I'm sure a bit more maths could be applied to even that out. Some sort of taper like they use in benefit calculations. It's been a month since I've had a proper night's sleep, and three decades since I sat in a Maths lesson, so this might all be gibberish. Sorry if it is!