Thoughts on enhancing dependency management of mods

[zone22]

First off well done Vortex is maturing into a wonderful mod manager. I would like to share some frustrations which are not unique to but hopefully could be resolved by Vortex and its development team in the future. To put this into context this frustration comes from managing well over hundred mods.

 

1. When installing large amounts of mods they have to be installed at a certain order. This is true of any mod or patch that have dependencies.

 

The frustration: Setting up the user might install a mod too early that contains a patch for a mod that they install later. The user missing out on a patch that should be installed.

 

2. A installed mod depends on an ESP file/mod thats downloaded or not downloaded by Vortex.

 

The frustration: The user is left with googling esps or trying to reinstall the mod to check options selected. This is because esp often use acronyms or the name seems unrelated to the mod it depends on. It's not an insurmountable problem but does take a lot of research especially when dealing with a large amount of mods.

 

Proposal: Notification displays missing masters, click on 'more' displays plug-ins and their missing masters.

A new feature would be navigate by clicking on either the missing dependency usually a plug-in or missing master or on the master.

 

1,Clicking on the plug-in or master would take the user to the installed mod that belongs to.

 

2. When the dependencies is missing clicking on the missing dependency would...

 

- if the mod exists downloaded containing the dependency clicking on what's missing would filter in the mods that need to be installed or enabled. Possibly highlighting the install option that needs to be selected.

- If mod does not exist locally to which the missing dependency belongs to then Vortex looks up the plug-in by name and hash of the plug-in on Nexus. Then opening up the web browser to display a list needed mods.

 

Understand I take my time to read the mod pages and readme's. This issue gets exacerbated with large amounts mods but also would help those who are new to modding resolve errors without turning to support of the mod author.

[AugustaCalidia]

@zone22: Well, I don't doubt that you've experienced the frustrations that you mention. However, I myself have not experienced those frustrations, because Vortex has provided me almost all the notifications I've needed to resolve dependency issues. In the few cases where it hasn't, I know of no mod manager that would.

 

Under Vortex management I have three games (six profiles) with several hundred mods altogether. In setting up the games, I simply dumped my downloads into Vortex and started hitting the install button and enabling without regard to any particular order. Since I use auto-sort and auto-deploy, those processes were happening on the fly. If Vortex notified me that something was amiss, then I pushed the "More" button, retrieved the necessary information, and took care of the problem, whether missing master or mod conflict.

 

In regard to proper load order for compatibility patches, Vortex sorting takes care of that. There have been only a couple of cases where I thought the patch should be somewhere else. Changing their group solved that problem.

 

Finally, here's some information that may or may not be relevant to your concerns.

Vortex does display LOOT warnings (the red bell).

The plugins page displays which mod goes with which esp/esm.

[zone22]

@Augusta Calidia

Thank you for sharing your experience thoughts and helpful hints.

 

To clarify a few things. Yes Vortex does automatically sort the load order and that's beside the point I'm trying to make here.

 

When you're reading the notifications you are not informed in the 'more' section

- which mod the master ESP belongs

- nor does it display what the which mod missing dependency belongs

You have to manually type that information in the model plug-in section to discover which mod it belongs.

 

2. Clicking on ESP that contains missing Masters should send you straight to the mod it belongs to.

1. Vortex already tracks ESP going to each mod. Why not load those mods containing the missing ESP's in a filter so that the dependencies can be installed with greater simplicity.

 

A missing Masters filter would be useful as well. So it does not get mixed with other warnings.

 

The above suggestion only works if the dependency is in a downloaded or installed mod. Could we handle missing dependencies that are not downloaded by tapping into nexusmods for the missing esp. Each uploaded mod has a manifest containing all the files in it. Which leads to the third suggestion,

 

3. Cross-referencing missing ESP files that are not found locally Vortex through the website to guide the user to the list of mods containing ESPs files.

 

If it would help I could drop a diagram.

 

lf very fortunate that you've not had to install mods in a certain order. Keep in mind I'm not talking about load order but install order.

 

Here a example

Know Your Enemy - Trait-based resistances and weaknesses

 

1. Say Animal Tweaks are Installed so naturally would select the option that installs the patch 'kye_animal_tweaks_patch.esp'. Great everything works as expected.

2. After you continue to install more mods.

3. Now Helgen Reborn mod is installed. If I don't go reinstall Know Your Enemy patch 'kye_helgen_reborn_patch.esp' patch is missed.

4. When you're dealing with hundreds of mods this issue gets exacerbated.

The user has no notification that a patch has been missed.

[HadToRegister]

 

1. Say Animal Tweaks are Installed so naturally would select the option that installs the patch 'kye_animal_tweaks_patch.esp'. Great everything works as expected.

2. After you continue to install more mods.

3. Now Helgen Reborn mod is installed. If I don't go reinstall Know Your Enemy patch 'kye_helgen_reborn_patch.esp' patch is missed.

4. When you're dealing with hundreds of mods this issue gets exacerbated.

The user has no notification that a patch has been missed.

 

That's up to the person installing the mods, no matter which mod installer they're using, to read the description pages and install instructions for the mods they're installing.

 

I don't expect Vortex, nor any other mod manager to be able to handle installing something Like FCOM-Francescons-OOO for Oblivion.

 

What I expect, using any mod manager is spending a few nights just reading install instructions, and following them to the letter.

This is why I install mods in 'sections'

 

First, I go through the TOP FILES (Of all time) list on each Game section I want), then go through my "TRACKING CENTER" because it's full of mods I used before AND Mods that "weren't ready yet".

Then I download them all

Then, I go through installing mods in 'sections/groups'

I install UI mods and any mod that I know adds UI elements, that way, when those are installed, I know that any mod I install in the future has NOTHING to do with UI, so I don't have to worry about it.

 

Example

DarNUI + User Interface Organizer + Adjustable Hud = Immersive Hud = Project Nevada (HUH? Because it has a Grenade Hot Key and Display that's added to the UI)

 

Once I get that all set up, I move on to the Body mods, which will include UNP or CBBE, and Eyebrows, Makeup, Skin Textures, and Hair, Nails, etc

 

Once those are set up, then I installs stuff that won't interfere with the two groups above.

Armors, Clothes, Weapons etc.

 

What you're describing is not up to the Mod Manager to handle it, because it would take something like "Deep Thought" from the "Hitchiker's Guide" to be able to anticipate and know ever mods dependencies, it's up to the person who is wanting to install a particular combination of Mods, because no two users are going to have identical mods installed.

 

 

[Guest deleted34304850]

that's interesting.

so what you would need is for vortex, or whatever mod manager, to be able to read and act upon some meta data related a mod and its potential pre-requisite mods. so if you install mod x, and mod y together, then the mod manager should, by virtue of reading the meta data, automatically pull down and install mod z?

[zone22]

 

I don't expect Vortex, nor any other mod manager to be able to handle installing something Like FCOM-Francescons-OOO for Oblivion.

 

What I expect, using any mod manager is spending a few nights just reading install instructions, and following them to the letter.

This is why I install mods in 'sections'

 

First, I go through the TOP FILES (Of all time) list on each Game section I want), then go through my "TRACKING CENTER" because it's full of mods I used before AND Mods that "weren't ready yet".

Then I download them all

Then, I go through installing mods in 'sections/groups'

I install UI mods and any mod that I know adds UI elements, that way, when those are installed, I know that any mod I install in the future has NOTHING to do with UI, so I don't have to worry about it.

 

Example

DarNUI + User Interface Organizer + Adjustable Hud = Immersive Hud = Project Nevada (HUH? Because it has a Grenade Hot Key and Display that's added to the UI)

 

Once I get that all set up, I move on to the Body mods, which will include UNP or CBBE, and Eyebrows, Makeup, Skin Textures, and Hair, Nails, etc

 

Once those are set up, then I installs stuff that won't interfere with the two groups above.

Armors, Clothes, Weapons etc.

 

What you're describing is not up to the Mod Manager to handle it, because it would take something like "Deep Thought" from the "Hitchiker's Guide" to be able to anticipate and know ever mods dependencies, it's up to the person who is wanting to install a particular combination of Mods, because no two users are going to have identical mods installed.

 

 

 

That's up to the person installing the mods, no matter which mod installer they're using, to read the description pages and install instructions for the mods they're installing.

I understand where you're coming from but none of what I've suggested does not takes away from the install process or the user's responsibility to read instructions. Just so you know I've installed FCOM and 600 other mods for oblivion. I had to read through mod install instructions, install in order, clean, manually merge, and manually sort load order. What I'm suggesting makes this easier but not automated...

 

It allows the user to search Nexus by dependencies for the most part missing Masters.

It also informs users that they have implicit dependencies that yet could be installed. It's their choice whether or not to install them.

 

All of this information is already contained both in the Vortex and nexusmods.com. The data already exists and does not have to be curated by authors or mod users.

 

that's interesting.

so what you would need is for vortex, or whatever mod manager, to be able to read and act upon some meta data related a mod and its potential pre-requisite mods. so if you install mod x, and mod y together, then the mod manager should, by virtue of reading the meta data, automatically pull down and install mod z?

Nothing I'm trying suggest automatically pull down and install mod z

 

Meta data already exists within the mod that has the missing dependency and on Nexus which contains missing dependency in the file manifests. For example 'AwesomeMod'

 

AwesomeMod.esp has missing dependency named 'Hearthstone.esp ' which unique hash which is defined as a missing master in AwesomeMod.esp

1. user clicks on missing dependency 'Hearthstone.esp

2. browser opens up

3. Nexus displays lists of Mods containing 'Hearthstone.esp' and unique hash

[Guest deleted34304850]

i have to say i like this idea.

 

i work with a product that works in a not too-far removed way. in that tool, if i pull down mod x, and there is a pre-requisite of mod y and mod y is superceded (replaced) by mod z, when i deploy, it will deploy mod x, then deploy mod z which is deployed because it has a replacer relationship to mod y. if i list mod x and its dependencies the report will show me mod x is installed, so too is mod z - and mod z is installed in place of (as it replaced) mod y.

 

i get your point about not automatically downloading a given mod based on the meta data, but yes, it could alert/inform the user that they may (or may not) install a mod based on the meta data available to it.

the only issue i could see is that it is very obvious that meta data can go stale over time - and it would fall on the mod developer to ensure that the meta data is updated any time the mod itself is updated. however, as an i dea, i really do like it.

[zone22]

i have to say i like this idea.

 

i work with a product that works in a not too-far removed way. in that tool, if i pull down mod x, and there is a pre-requisite of mod y and mod y is superceded (replaced) by mod z, when i deploy, it will deploy mod x, then deploy mod z which is deployed because it has a replacer relationship to mod y. if i list mod x and its dependencies the report will show me mod x is installed, so too is mod z - and mod z is installed in place of (as it replaced) mod y.

 

i get your point about not automatically downloading a given mod based on the meta data, but yes, it could alert/inform the user that they may (or may not) install a mod based on the meta data available to it.

the only issue i could see is that it is very obvious that meta data can go stale over time - and it would fall on the mod developer to ensure that the meta data is updated any time the mod itself is updated. however, as an i dea, i really do like it.

That's just it no one has to manage the metadata mod authors or users. The hash can be automatically generated when uploading the file by nexus so is the file contents the file manifests already generated.

Go under Main files of any mod on nexusmods. Click on Preview file contents. That contains the file manifest reach mod on nexus contents like 'Hearthstone.esp.

 

So yes the hash would go out of date when the mod is updated. It is enough to guide the user to the mod page were the download once existed or does exist.

[HadToRegister]

 

 

It allows the user to search Nexus by dependencies for the most part missing Masters.

It also informs users that they have implicit dependencies that yet could be installed. It's their choice whether or not to install them.

 

All of this information is already contained both in the Vortex and nexusmods.com. The data already exists and does not have to be curated by authors or mod users.

 

 

Nexus will need some fixing for that to work, as you know, going through older mod pages, where mod authors have linked to other mods that either require their mod, or work well with their etc, when you click on them, because they're in the old format with the php? etc and end up being the wrong URLS, there are a virtual TON of these links spread out over the Nexus that need to be updated to the new url format

 

New Format https://www.nexusmods.com/<game title>/mods/<mod number>/38719/?

 

Old Format https://www.nexusmods.com/?id=<id number>

 

Those old links need to be converted site-site, because they only bring you to part of the site with the game, but not to the actual mod page.

I've been working around it by clicking the link, getting to the main game page, copying the MOD ID from the URL, then clicking on any mod in the hot files section, getting to that mod page, then pasting the MOD ID as copied, over the current MOD ID in my browser Address bar.

 

Nexus would have to convert all of those links they left orphaned when they switched, because a lot of pages with orphaned links aren't being maintained by the mod authors anymore.

[AugustaCalidia]

@zone22: I agree with 1ae0bfb8 - I like your idea.

 

In my own case, however, I've rarely been in a situation where I was missing key information and needed to conduct a search. Like HadToRegister, I do extensive research on mods and know what to expect before installing them. Also, when I do install, Vortex notifications are sufficient for my purposes.

 

A clarification (if there needs to be such). In my initial post, I too was talking principally about install order and not load order. For example, when it comes to compatibility patches, I install them willy-nilly and then let Vortex sort things out as far as load order is concerned. (I hope this doesn't sound too scatterbrained!)

 

Finally, in the matter of notifications, Vortex recently displayed a LOOT notice that I was missing a certain patch (didn't do my homework there). Apparently, then, this type of notification is already available in Vortex via LOOT.

 

One more "finally." Once I understood what you were talking about (1ae0bfb8 helped me there), I am impressed by your meta-data proposal. If implemented, it would be superior to what we have now.

 

Edit: HadToRegister has noted the technical difficulties in implementing your plan. Do you have any ideas how to go about dealing with those difficulties? However, your idea is still a good one in spite of possible implementation issues.