Something I think we haven't noticed about the Stormcloak/Imperial

[BrettM]

Skyrim too was obedient for quite some time UNTIL Ulfric stirred up a hornet's nest with his stupid demands during the Markarth Incident. My point still stands.

You seem to be using a strange definition for the word "obedient". If you only drive over the speed limit when there aren't any cops watching, are you obeying the law? If parents tell a young child not to smoke, is he obeying them if he sneaks out behind the barn and smokes where they can't see him do it?

 

How did Balgruuf obey the WGC by allowing a shrine to Talos to stand in the middle of his city with a priest of Talos spouting off publicly in front of it? How did the Jarl of Riften obey by allowing the presence of a shrine and priestess of Talos? How did the Jarl of Windhelm (Ulfric's father at the time) obey by allowing a temple and priest of Talos in his city?

 

All of this, and more, was going on before the Markarth Incident, so it is laughable to claim that Skyrim was "obedient" until Ulfric came along. Disobedience was rampant in Skyrim prior to Markarth by any rational standard. The Empire just turned a blind eye to it until Markarth took away their plausible deniability and the Thalmor called them on it.

[Kraeten]

You seem to be using a strange definition for the word "obedient". If you only drive over the speed limit when there aren't any cops watching, are you obeying the law?

 

Irrelevant. What matters, is Skyrim and High Rock accepted the terms of the WGC and didn't refuse them outright as Hammerfell did.

[Deleted4666244User]

let's look at it all logically. Who caused all this to happen in the first place? MARTIN SEPTIM because he had to choice but to sacrifice himself to save HIS empire. now look what happened between then and the Medes Taking Charge: Black Marsh broke away and took Morrowind Thalmor take over Summerset Isle and rename it Alinor. Oh and Chancellor Ocato was assassinated.

 

SO if you Stormcloaks want to blame Somebody, blame the guy who sacked his own life to Save you all!!!!!!

[imperistan]

Mandate or not, there was nothing to stop the other provinces from following Hammerfell's example at the conclusion of the Great War.

 

The other provinces weren't losing a chunk of themselves in the process.

 

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Not wrong. Ulfric isn't fighting the Empire as an idea, he's fighting those of the Empire that oppose him. If everyone in the Empire was willing to support Ulfric he would have no reason to war against him. Though if that were the case, there never would have been a conflict in the first place other than between the Empire and the Dominion.

 

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Feel free to show where I said that I put all hope on Ulfric. Those two quotes don't count either, because I only mention Ulfric once and its not in the way that you accuse me of.

 

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That argument is self-defeating. I would argue that this is the perfect time for this rebellion because if it isn't now, then it may be too late when the Dominion finally abandons pretense after its rebuilt its complete strength and is ready to invade the Empire. What better time to forge a new alliance than when the old one is falling apart?

 

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Not taking "unnecessary risks" is what caused this conflict. And anyway, getting caught up on risks isn't going to save you in the long run. You'll either end up dead anyway or having to give up something more than just your life.

 

To example this song yet again:

 

From birth we're taught

How to survive.

We're taught how war is waged.

And there are no men now alive

Who stop our wild rampage.

 

Light at heart we bide or bane

Whatever death awaits.

Norsemen live without regrets,

We accept our woven fate.

 

So fearlessly we charge ahead,

There is no time to hesitate.

 

Don't despair, show no fear,

Live your life without regrets.

Don't despair and show no fear

In the face of a certain death!

 

A coward thinks he'll always live

If he keeps himself from strife;

Old age leaves no rest and peace,

Though spears may spare his life.

 

We don't mourn

A friend that fell

Or dread the day

We'll fall ourselves.

Warriors don't go to Hell,

'Cause we know

Ygg will greet us well.

 

So fearlessly we charge ahead,

There is no time to hesitate.

 

Don't despair, show no fear,

Live your life without regrets.

Don't despair and show no fear

In the face of a certain death!

 

So raise your horns

To those who died.

Let's drink to

Fallen friends tonight.

Let's celebrate their glory life.

We'll meet again in Valhall

When we die!

When we die!

When we die!

 

Hammerfell doesn't need to be brought up. Everyone is aware of its independence, which is why I didn't bother mentioning that province specifically. As for High Rock, they haven't tried to secede therefore they're obedient. Skyrim too was obedient for quite some time UNTIL Ulfric stirred up a hornet's nest with his stupid demands during the Markarth Incident. My point still stands.

 

High Rock's complacency doesn't really indicate their actual willingness to obey the Empire. From what we know of whats going on there, it would seem that they probably don't care one way or the other.

 

And as Brett said, Skyrim wasn't obeying, it just wasn't causing a fuss. Big difference.

[Deleted4666244User]

 

That argument is self-defeating. I would argue that this is the perfect time for this rebellion because if it isn't now, then it may be too late when the Dominion finally abandons pretense after its rebuilt its complete strength and is ready to invade the Empire. What better time to forge a new alliance than when the old one is falling apart?

 

 

I may have to argue that with a question. What would Ulfric Do if The bretons brok away from the Empire but do not want to join up with him? He seems like a "You're either with me, or against me" kind of guy. i would not be surprised if he went straight to war with them instead of trying diplomacy. For all we know the Empire is having secret meeting with the leader of Hammerfel looking to make an alliance for the coming war.

[sajuukkhar9000]

I may have to argue that with a question. What would Ulfric Do if The bretons brok away from the Empire but do not want to join up with him? He seems like a "You're either with me, or against me" kind of guy. i would not be surprised if he went straight to war with them instead of trying diplomacy. For all we know the Empire is having secret meeting with the leader of Hammerfel looking to make an alliance for the coming war.

The Empire really doesn't even need to make an alliance with Hammerfell beforehand.

 

The Redguards are a race of warriors so focused on war that they nuked their own homeland with magic.

 

If The Empire attacks the AD the Redguards would use the advantage to attack the Ad themselves for revenge.

[imperistan]

I may have to argue that with a question. What would Ulfric Do if The bretons brok away from the Empire but do not want to join up with him? He seems like a "You're either with me, or against me" kind of guy. i would not be surprised if he went straight to war with them instead of trying diplomacy. For all we know the Empire is having secret meeting with the leader of Hammerfel looking to make an alliance for the coming war.

 

I've said before that if man couldn't stand together then it would fall divided. If the Bretons break away from everyone they'll eventually be drawn into the eventual war whether they like or not, unless somehow the Dominion is completely blasted into Oblivion when the war starts (hence not necessitating the complete unity of mankind).

 

And if Ulfric decided to go to war with High Rock, he'd start losing support pretty fast. Fighting against the Empire was one thing, fighting against a relatively unimportant nation (to Skyrim's status that is) is another altogether, particularly when they've shown no aggression. (and if HIgh Rock is aggressive against Skyrim, well, then Ulfric or whoever ends up in charge would be obligated)

[Deleted4666244User]

I may have to argue that with a question. What would Ulfric Do if The bretons brok away from the Empire but do not want to join up with him? He seems like a "You're either with me, or against me" kind of guy. i would not be surprised if he went straight to war with them instead of trying diplomacy. For all we know the Empire is having secret meeting with the leader of Hammerfel looking to make an alliance for the coming war.

 

I've said before that if man couldn't stand together then it would fall divided. If the Bretons break away from everyone they'll eventually be drawn into the eventual war whether they like or not, unless somehow the Dominion is completely blasted into Oblivion when the war starts (hence not necessitating the complete unity of mankind).

 

And if Ulfric decided to go to war with High Rock, he'd start losing support pretty fast. Fighting against the Empire was one thing, fighting against a relatively unimportant nation (to Skyrim's status that is) is another altogether, particularly when they've shown no aggression. (and if HIgh Rock is aggressive against Skyrim, well, then Ulfric or whoever ends up in charge would be obligated)

And if Hammerfel Said to leave them alone, What would Ulfric do? if he went to war with them he'd lose men like that. Same thing goes for bretons, if he attacked them, his forces would die due to the Bretons being the best HUMAN magic users.

 

The Empire sends a letter to Balgruff explaining the reasons he needs the Empire's Help against Ulfric. Ulfric sends AN AXE with the ultimatum of "join our cause or lose your hold". Also back to the Markarth Incident, after the forsworn were driven out of Markarth and when empire came back to get the place under control, what did Ulfric do ? HE FORCED THE EMPIRE TO ALLOW OPEN TALOS WORSHIP. now if Ulfric engaged in diplomatic discussions over it, i would be okay with it. But Ulfric is a man who would easily fight someone if they do not do what he wants.

[IsharaMeradin]

But Ulfric is a man who would easily fight someone if they do not do what he wants.

Exactly.

 

from wiki about Torygg

Torygg found Ulfric's calls for independence moving, and respected him for voicing such a bold, borderline treasonous opinion. That is why when Ulfric came to see him in Solitude, Torygg intended to hear more of his arguments for independence with an open mind; neither he nor his court suspected that Ulfric was there to challenge Torygg until it was too late to stop it.

If Ulfric weren't such a hothead there probably wouldn't have been a civil war of Skyrim peoples but rather a conflict between all of Skyrim and the Empire. Which given the Empire's standing against the Thalmor may or may not have happened.

 

Its usually this bit of information from Elisif herself that leads me to the in game decision to join the Legion. Its possible if I never spoke with her that I might join the Stormcloaks, but once I did speak with her I'd probably want to jump ship and that option isn't built into the game.

 

Ulfric did what he did so that there would be a more interesting world to play in and to have a much better game start than say that of Morrowind (never played the others) -- (I hated those questions in Morrowind, I like to just play the character and develop the skills I use not be forced into some class cause I answered a question wrong)

[Bhanqwa]

I hated those questions in Morrowind, I like to just play the character and develop the skills I use not be forced into some class cause I answered a question wrong

The Morrowind I played didn't force you to answer questions you could get wrong, there was an alternative option to select your major/minor skills and attributes as you saw fit.