Are Debates Ever Really Won?

[imperistan]

Pay more attention if you haven't ever seen anyone switch sides.

You post these blithe wannabe pithy comments in the inaccurate beleif that you cannot be rebutted.... wrong. Unlike some, I won't pretend that I do not read all the posts in a thread I originate. So now it's time to put up or shut up...kindly go to your trophy case of debating Oscar's and pull one out for us all to see where you achieved this epiphany with another debater. To which I mean precisely what thread and with whom....links please.

 

http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/003/e02/bce/resized/krooze6-meme-generator-calm-down-brah-you-full-on-mad-bb4a62.jpg?1326423387.jpg

 

 

 

But seriously though, that was the most needlessly hostile post I've ever seen. Good lord.

 

 

 

And as for the topic, I find that if a debate is to be won, it needs to be a closed debate (ie, with a set amount of people) between people who argue with the same level of commitment, seriousness, and either open-mindedness and/or non-stubbornness. Otherwise, you end up having a bunch of people come in and out of the debate (clouding it with repeated arguments and making it very unclear what progress has been made) and a varying level of actual debate going on, ranging from petty insults and flaming to one-sided opinion preaching to stalemated arguing to full blown real debating, and everything in-between.

[marharth]

Pay more attention if you haven't ever seen anyone switch sides.

You post these blithe wannabe pithy comments in the inaccurate beleif that you cannot be rebutted.... wrong. Unlike some, I won't pretend that I do not read all the posts in a thread I originate. So now it's time to put up or shut up...kindly go to your trophy case of debating Oscar's and pull one out for us all to see where you achieved this epiphany with another debater. To which I mean precisely what thread and with whom....links please.

Wow you are really mad at me, calm down.

 

I used to believe that assault rifles should be legal to own, but switched sides on that. That was on one of the first gun control debate topics I posted on. Think its in here somewhere - http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/437260-guns-or-not-guns/

Clearly changed my view on that.

 

Also the whole Muslim Brotherhood thing. Don't remember what exact topic that was in though since it was a off topic discussion.

[LHammonds]

Depends on the what is being debated. Convincing people isn't really all that important, considering in the more subjective subjects debates are mostly about presenting opinions on the matter, what one may like or dislike, and often there is no right or wrong in that. There are wrong forms of debating and stating an opinion. Logic and truth always wins, even if it doesn't change peoples minds or put the subject to bed.

Ghogiel brings up a good point. However, when debating publicly like this, those that have a strong opinion one way or the other will likely post. The people most-likely to be swayed one way or the other are the ones NOT making any posts and simply going off what is being said in the debate...which means those who can back up their opinion with the most believable facts, trustworthy articles, etc. will likely sway the unknown masses to their way of thinking.

 

LHammonds

[HeyYou]

Depends on the what is being debated. Convincing people isn't really all that important, considering in the more subjective subjects debates are mostly about presenting opinions on the matter, what one may like or dislike, and often there is no right or wrong in that. There are wrong forms of debating and stating an opinion. Logic and truth always wins, even if it doesn't change peoples minds or put the subject to bed.

Ghogiel brings up a good point. However, when debating publicly like this, those that have a strong opinion one way or the other will likely post. The people most-likely to be swayed one way or the other are the ones NOT making any posts and simply going off what is being said in the debate...which means those who can back up their opinion with the most believable facts, trustworthy articles, etc. will likely sway the unknown masses to their way of thinking.

 

LHammonds

 

You guys bring up an interesting point. While we may not have much influence on each other, how much influence are we having that we will never hear about? Intriguing.

[Vindekarr]

Well, I don't think the debates forums works at all anymore: people are so agressive these days, they tend to shout first and consider the merits of opinions later. It's become about winning debates, and that's the problem. A debate isn't about beating someone into submission with a bat made out of solid prejudice, it's about improving upon ideas and finding what works, and that's long gone from this section.

[Kendo 2]

Well, I don't think the debates forums works at all anymore: people are so agressive these days, they tend to shout first and consider the merits of opinions later. It's become about winning debates, and that's the problem. A debate isn't about beating someone into submission with a bat made out of solid prejudice, it's about improving upon ideas and finding what works, and that's long gone from this section.

 

Yep, 'right at any cost'. This point has been brought up before and it always ends with someone posting something like 'I think what I think and therefore you are WRONG because you don't think way I think'. At one time people actually did debate here. They made factual statements and posted links and sometimes it was very informative. Now it is just a giant pissing contest dominated by opinion posters, pseudo-intellectuals and logic Nazis.

 

At one time I could pick a topic I was interested in, read the posts, verify the facts and then do my own research before I posted. It really was like that at one time. Now I don't bother. The facts don't matter and now it boils down to what yammering baboon is the loudest.

 

There have been attempts in the past to steer this section back to the way it was. They never work. There are members here who actually like things the way they are. They rule the school yard so why would they want to it change? And that's too bad, because it has driven away the solid debaters and left us with what you see now, a few debaters and a lot of uninformed and hostile opinion posters.

[HeyYou]

Well, I don't think the debates forums works at all anymore: people are so agressive these days, they tend to shout first and consider the merits of opinions later. It's become about winning debates, and that's the problem. A debate isn't about beating someone into submission with a bat made out of solid prejudice, it's about improving upon ideas and finding what works, and that's long gone from this section.

 

Yep, 'right at any cost'. This point has been brought up before and it always ends with someone posting something like 'I think what I think and therefore you are WRONG because you don't think way I think'. At one time people actually did debate here. They made factual statements and posted links and sometimes it was very informative. Now it is just a giant pissing contest dominated by opinion posters, pseudo-intellectuals and logic Nazis.

 

At one time I could pick a topic I was interested in, read the posts, verify the facts and then do my own research before I posted. It really was like that at one time. Now I don't bother. The facts don't matter and now it boils down to what yammering baboon is the loudest.

 

There have been attempts in the past to steer this section back to the way it was. They never work. There are members here who actually like things the way they are. They rule the school yard so why would they want to it change? And that's too bad, because it has driven away the solid debaters and left us with what you see now, a few debaters and a lot of uninformed and hostile opinion posters.

 

Wow. Nice generalizations there.... You will have to excuse me if I am just a bit offended.....

[ginnyfizz]

But it's true, I am afraid. We have a lot of hostile hectoring going on at the moment. I get sick of the kind of poster that thinks it is a legitimate debating style to insult their fellow members intelligence, and who hurl insults like a couple of the things thrown at me "Do you know anything about history?..." (yes, we have thousands of years of it here in Britain and I learned a lot about world history as well) and "STFU, you don't know what you're talking about..." (I do actually, I am pretty damned bright and have been around a long time and debated in competition situations - and won.) Quite a few people have got similar, not just me.

 

But Debates in here are certainly neither won nor are they really debates, you start getting abuse hurled and all the people with something legitimate to say think "Sod it, I'm out of here..."

 

Another thing that irritates me is the trotting out of the phrase "logical fallacy" at something you disagree with or by way of a rebuke (or as a red herring). I'm sorry, but when my university mooting team were thrashing all comers it was not something that was ever mentioned. Is logical fallacy the new "in thing"?

[Ghogiel]

They are simply incorrect uses of logic or false reasoning.

They were rhetoric devices that sophists used extensively, Socrates and his lineage were to later write on them and point out the logical flaws on many of them.

[ginnyfizz]

Ah, well we certainly were aware of sophistry, looks like logical fallacy is the modern terminology for it then. It's simply that when I was actively involved in debates/moots/mock trials, we didn't use the accusation of sophistry/logical fallacy as a means of rebuttal during the course of a debate/counsels arguments. With due respect to m'learned friends, the lobbing in of the cry of "logical fallacy" can get as tiresome as the sophistry itself, and frequently happens when the adversary just won't back down, no matter how much you wish they would...or can be a device to try and look smart. Of course it can also be legitimate, and probably works better in an on forum debate rather than in a verbal face to face debate, where you might have a live audience who could conceivably get a little raucous, especially if they have been in the subsidised student bar....