Import from NMM

[Guest deleted34304850]

Yup, Tannin, you make valid points. If the data isn't there then any sampling is completely subjective and not a true reflection. Too many unknowns.

The whole process of an import from NMM is also reliant on the end user knowing what they're doing. Without meaning to sound disrespectful, there is a clear number that have absolutely no idea what they're doing (which is why they think NMM for all its faults is the golden child of mod managers), and because of that lack of knowledge the chances to mess things up increases.

Unless there's a method to automatically do this with almost no user intervention, then this is always going to be a pain point, which is sad because it will always paint Vortex as the bad guy.

[HadToRegister]

 

But we will also not know how many of our users would never have switched to Vortex at all if there wasn't a way to import their mods from NMM. We have absolutely no indication of how many users had their NMM install imported just fine. It could literally be 5. Or 200.000.

 

 

 

 

I can tell you that the support threads for importing from NMM, usually end with the person going back to NMM.

There's a handful who persevere and work it out, but it seems the majority ragequit Vortex, then start another thread about how they are "being forced to use Vortex because NMM "went away"

There's a current one right in this forum where the person is going back to NMM because Vortex is "more trouble than it's worth"

 

Unfortunately what this does, is completely shuts the person off from ever wanting to learn Vortex and realizing how much better it is.

Instead, they put up a wall, go back to NMM, and just continue to badmouth Vortex, even necroing threads just to add a crappy comment

 

So, is the ability even worth keeping in Vortex, especially when it's NMM and/or the user who messes up the procedure?

 

[holytank]

Most gamers, but not all, want to play their game as quickly as possible. I have watched people trying to play games without setting their game options or wanting to read anything. Once watched my nephew, install a game, try to play, and then comment "this game sucks". He did not even look to see what the keyboard control options were.

For Vortex and NMM importing, it might be beneficial to have a step process or a single page containing all requirements, where the import process does not begin until every requirement is met/completed.

[Guest deleted34304850]

i read that thread and i feel sorry for the OP and for RMM, who tried so hard to help him with his issues.

 

I get the point Tannin makes about not having all the data available to be able to make an informed decision, but from the data that is clearly available in these forums, the NMM import faciliity is a leading cause in harming Vortex's reputation and significantly impacting the user experience.

 

In my day job, this wouldn't be a discussion. If you don't have all the data about a process, but reputation is clearly being damaged by that process, the process, whatever it is, is removed until it can do what it's meant to do without reputational damage or bad end user experience.

 

Sadly, that's the world we live in today, right or wrong. All I can see is no winners here, and that makes me sad because I truly believe that Vortex is a superb product that should be lauded for what it can do, not damned by one common facility it tries to do, but fails because of limitations in another mod manager. :(

[rmm200]

I am glad this topic got the discussion going.

All the right people are involved, and we all want Vortex to be the best mod manager it can be.

[Tannin42]

As Dark0ne has said, we're looking into improving or replacing the feature entirely, the point of my post was just to show that there is another side to this.

 

 

 

I can tell you that the support threads for importing from NMM, usually end with the person going back to NMM.
There's a handful who persevere and work it out, but it seems the majority ragequit Vortex, then start another thread about how they are "being forced to use Vortex because NMM "went away"
There's a current one right in this forum where the person is going back to NMM because Vortex is "more trouble than it's worth"

Unfortunately what this does, is completely shuts the person off from ever wanting to learn Vortex and realizing how much better it is.
Instead, they put up a wall, go back to NMM, and just continue to badmouth Vortex, even necroing threads just to add a crappy comment

So, is the ability even worth keeping in Vortex, especially when it's NMM and/or the user who messes up the procedure?

 

Sure, and if you see only the users complaining and ragequitting you get the impression Vortex isn't well received but we do have usage statistics. The adoption numbers of Vortex are fine. Really.

Yes, there are users who stick to NMM but that's no surprise, it's not even a bad idea if you had a NMM install that was working fine.

 

 

i read that thread and i feel sorry for the OP and for RMM, who tried so hard to help him with his issues.

 

I get the point Tannin makes about not having all the data available to be able to make an informed decision, but from the data that is clearly available in these forums, the NMM import faciliity is a leading cause in harming Vortex's reputation and significantly impacting the user experience.

 

In my day job, this wouldn't be a discussion. If you don't have all the data about a process, but reputation is clearly being damaged by that process, the process, whatever it is, is removed until it can do what it's meant to do without reputational damage or bad end user experience.

 

Sadly, that's the world we live in today, right or wrong. All I can see is no winners here, and that makes me sad because I truly believe that Vortex is a superb product that should be lauded for what it can do, not damned by one common facility it tries to do, but fails because of limitations in another mod manager. :sad:

 

If you make your decisions based on how loud a certain group whines, that group controls your development, while you ignore all those that are happy with it.

 

If it's not the NMM import then it's load ordering. If it's not that it's memory usage, the UI or whatever. Some users will never be happy and they will make a lot of noise. Some of the biggest noisemakers have even said they never tried Vortex and never will, yet they believe their opinion should inform our decisions.

At the same time we have hundreds of thousands of users that use Vortex regularly and have never reached out to us in any way.

 

Should we really ignore all the silent users and make our decisions based on the 1-2% that post on the forum?

 

Don't get me wrong, we look into problems when they are reported, even the rude reports.

You guys, who spend so much time trying to help users, when you say there is a problem here, there is a problem. This issue about the NMM import is being taken very seriously and we spend some serious time on looking into improvements.

 

But at the end of the day we can't just compare the number of users who complained vs. the number that said it worked successfully and make decisions based on which number is bigger, we have to estimate how changes will affect the entire userbase.

Our decision has to be made on the _thing_ not on how it's being talked about.

If the process is just badly explained, the solution isn't to scrap it but to improve the explanation. If the problem is that users have NMM remove files installed through Vortex, we need to look into preventing or repairing that, not change how users get mods into Vortex in the first place.

If the import process itself is simply too unreliable and it can't be improved (enough) then we scrap it - and trust me: I'll not shed a single tear about it.

 

Our decision needs to be made on proper understanding of the problem, not the noise about it.

[Guest deleted34304850]

 

i read that thread and i feel sorry for the OP and for RMM, who tried so hard to help him with his issues.

 

I get the point Tannin makes about not having all the data available to be able to make an informed decision, but from the data that is clearly available in these forums, the NMM import faciliity is a leading cause in harming Vortex's reputation and significantly impacting the user experience.

 

In my day job, this wouldn't be a discussion. If you don't have all the data about a process, but reputation is clearly being damaged by that process, the process, whatever it is, is removed until it can do what it's meant to do without reputational damage or bad end user experience.

 

Sadly, that's the world we live in today, right or wrong. All I can see is no winners here, and that makes me sad because I truly believe that Vortex is a superb product that should be lauded for what it can do, not damned by one common facility it tries to do, but fails because of limitations in another mod manager. :sad:

 

If you make your decisions based on how loud a certain group whines, that group controls your development, while you ignore all those that are happy with it.

 

:) you speak like a man after my own heart. I did say that this was my day job - sadly in that job I don't get to talk like you do - instead, I get to listen to those who whine the loudest and as they pay the bills they get to call the shots. Which is why I said that's the world we live in now. I should have said world "I" live in.

 

But you are entirely correct and I agree with you completely.

 

All I'm trying to say is that I don't think it is fair that Vortex would be blamed for trying to do something positive, and right or wrong (okay, let's be honest, wrong), that is the perception people have.

But, please, don't be put off by my words - I'm very much a fan of Vortex and the abilities you are putting into this mod manager. I am 100% supportive of everything you're trying to do, and the way you do it.

[sopmac45]

I never trusted the import feature, never. On the very first day Vortex was ready to be installed, I decided to wipe out NMM from my PC, install Vortex and start from scratch, installed my mods and I have said it before several times, I installed Skyrim with a few mods, used it as a 'rat' in my Vortex lab to learn it and when I felt confident about it, reinstall Skyrim and Fallout 4. My only problem was to deal with my old mentality ( that I got from NMM ) about how to manage the load order. Once I realized everything we know now, Vortex started to make sense and I have not had any trouble since them.

 

I did recommend several times not to import from NMM. The thing is that a lot of users do not want to deal with installing again everything and I do understand their approach. It would have been very nice for this feature to work very smooth so I would have use it as well. But something inside my heart told me not to. Vortex was in Alpha and a lot of troubles were out there that we had to understand before getting into just clicking a button and try to import all the mods and expect that they would be transferred with the integrity everybody expected. I do not believe that when in Alpha state, BIG things like importing from one place to another, will work as smooth as we think.

 

I do not know how many users did what I did but again, I never trusted the import feature so I have never even tried to use it and I am very happy with my decision, otherwise, I would have probably joined the group of very frustrated users we have had since Vortex is available. I am very sorry for them but at the same time, I am on the dev's team side because this feature was ( and it is still ) necessary but so far, it does require some kind of knowledge that users ( and I do not have either ) do not have.

 

@ Tannin .... if you can fix that and make it automatically with a minimal user's interaction or at least, some kind of detailed procedures on how to do that, I give my vote for this feature to remain available because it would help a lot of people to abandon NMM and come to Vortex and have a much better mod organizer to work with.

 

Not everybody have the knowledge to deal with data transferring, file deletion, etc, etc and not everybody at the same time want to deal with something like that. I do believe the majority would prefer the full automation, something very straightforward with very minimum interaction from the user and with the confident it will work as expected. If this is possible for you to do and you agree to it, please give them that. Not everybody would like to go into the process to reinstall 250 mods for every single game they play and loose everything they have done int their games. That would be tedious and frustrating.

 

On the other side, If you believe that cannot be done and it is better to remove it, by all means, you also got my vote because I do believe it is not being helpful at all. As you would not shed any tear about it, I would also won't since that feature never existed in my mind even though it was there.

 

One thing is very true though .... the feature is not broken but it does require from the users to apply some procedures that we do not have details about.

 

The feature is "broken" at the same time because when it is lacking detailed procedures, the user is not able to properly import with their minimum interaction and this is breaking their ability to move to Vortex, get frustrated in the process ( to a certain point they are right ), crap about Vortex and go back to NMM. So it is breaking a lot of emotions from players with the desire to use Vortex but unable to automatically transfer all of their mods and this is not right.

 

What would be nice ? One click and get it done !! Is this possible for you to do ? Only you know so you are the genius here and the main developer, or as recommended by other user in this thread, have some very detailed procedures for the user to understand the process so they can do it themselves .... or ... wipe it out and no more threads about it. This will require from them ( players ) to remove NMM completely from their PC and restart from scratch with Vortex though. Still painful.

[rmm200]

There is only one thing wrong with the "Modding for Dummies" approach.

Modding is not for dummies.

Hopping in without taking the time to understand what they are doing will lead to many hours of frustration. Vortex will be the least of their issues.

An elitist attitude is not all bad. Use mods because you are good enough to use mods. Rest is Darwin.

[HadToRegister]

There is only one thing wrong with the "Modding for Dummies" approach.

Modding is not for dummies.

Hopping in without taking the time to understand what they are doing will lead to many hours of frustration. Vortex will be the least of their issues.

An elitist attitude is not all bad. Use mods because you are good enough to use mods. Rest is Darwin.

 

 

I agree.

If it's TOO easy to do, than NOTHING is learned about modding when modding, then learning how to troubleshoot becomes something that you don't learn as well.

 

When I first started back with Morrowind, I had no clue why two mods would conflict with each other and cause missing textures/meshes etc in my game, and I didn't know what to do about it either.

I had to search the old Bethesda forums for someone with the same problem and read how they fixed it.

 

Now, in 2019, when this happens... "whoops, look at that, my character, and all the npcs have teeth on their knees and nipples on their shoulder, it must be because I'm using a texture incompatible with the body mesh I'm using." *SOLVED*